must read:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8245272.stm

"At least six people have been killed and large parts of north western Turkey are underwater after flash floods struck the region on Monday.

Rescue workers in the western town of Saray recovered the bodies of a mother and her three daughters and those of an elderly couple whose house had collapsed.

Suburbs of Istanbul have also been flooded."

Must read why? What´s so important?

 The death of at least 6 people isn´t important enough for you?

Today there was a striking piece of news in a Turkish newspaper, the amount of precipitation accumulated after the 30 minute heavy rain fall of yesterday (90kgs)  was higher than the amount of average total precipitation of the entire year (80kgs).

Every year torrential floods happen in this country. They are a very serious problem especially for the Black Sea region where precipitation amounts are particularly high and where most towns are located at the mouths of natural gullies on a mountainous terrain with sharp slopes.

Seems getting worse..

Rescuers recovered 17 bodies following flash floods that gushed across an Istanbul highway near the district of Ýkitelli, Doðan News Agency said.

Among the casualties were four bodies recovered by firefighters at a truck parking lot off the highway.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=...g-dozens-of-2009-09-09

Turks swept away in flash floods

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8245699.stm

 I just dont see the point of posting it in the forum. Who wants to know these things just need to turn on the TV.

So you don´t want there to be any discussions in the discussion forum?  Hummmm?  I guess we can just look at eachother.

Maybe we could set a limit on what body count is considered newsworthy?

On the other hand I agree with Suyu, I don´t think it´s a "must" read. I´m sure my day will go on as usual regardless of whether or not I read this article.

 Melek please don´t discuss anything.   

I noticed that many homes are built near small streams.  From my experience, those small streams can very rapidly become large.  Isn´t there any program to raise awarness of flooding in Turkey.  I noticed some places that looked like flood plains with multiple homes built in them.

In parts of CA we have a lot of very devastating floods during certain seasons.  I´ve seen those tiny streams turn into huge rivers with cars, refirgerators and other stuff flowing in them.  It´s truly amazing.....and dangerous. 

CA floods

Here are some amazing photos of the floods in Turkey.  They are from the Istanbul area on September the 9th, 2009.

Flash floods in Istanbul

Oh my. I can´t imagine how it must feel to be there right now, someone I care about has gone to Istanbul for 5 weeks and the first thing I did after hearing this was to call him. Thankfully he is ok. So much rain is hard to comprehend, my condolences to the familes who have lost people, and my best wishes to the many who have, and will be affected in any way.

Such news are really tough....thanks for posting the links to news articles, it does help to get more information.I just discovered this right now on the French TV channel LCI and came straight here to learn more.

My wholehearted support and best wishes to the people of Istanbul and the region, this is really sad.

A very sad day watching the news coverage for most of the day, we are not far away from most of the worst flooding and just want to express our deepest sympathy for all those that have died and are hopes for the people still missing that they will be found

It is extremely sad and worrying ,tv shows terrible scenes,I hope that ones I care are ok...And all families that lost their members will find peace.

This has made it to the BBC 6:00 news tonight with terrible scenes of people struggling to be saved from violent flooding.  The news reported that some 30 people have died and there are many missing.   It is the worst flood for 80 years in Istanbul. 

I am hoping that all our TC friends are safe from this. 

 Hope you and your family are safe!

Amazing video of the floods

It doesn´t look like it will end soon either.

Al Jazeera article on flood

(Never mind, that is is what it is.)  How does rainfall in kilograms work, is it the weight of water on a square meter?

This is a result of serious negligence..

That´s the way it was reported in the newspaper.

Since rain water is almost pure a kg of it will have a volume of one cubic decimeter hence one liter.

They reported precipitation the same way as they report snow that is kgs per squared meters therefore the value 90 kgs represents 90 kgs/m2

Usually, Precipitation is  reported in depth per time e.g. (mm/day)

simple conversion:
knowing that 1 liter of water equals 1000 centimeters cube and weights one kilograms
(water density is one gram per milliliter)
 
90 kgs/m2 = 90 L/m2 = 90,000 cc/m2 = 90,000 cc/10000cm2 = 9cm = 90 mm

The total precipitation for Ýstanbul averages 870 mm per year.
So basically they had 10% in only 30 minutes that is too much. 

 How´s that? 

I not disagreeing but could you tell us what the serious negligence is and how that would contribute to the outcome of this extreme weather event? 

Like in the UK everyone is laying brick weave drives so the run off water has no where to go in the event of heavy rain, and over loads the drainage systems causing flash flooding.  Or houses are built in flood plains - and flood plains are there to protect people form flooding. 

Is that what you mean, drainage systems are not properly maintained??

I´m interested to know.

I am very shocked from that what happened in Istanbul. I was there 2 weeks ago... I can`t believe... I wish everything will be all right soon.

Not that I´m an expert on the Turkish flood problem, but...it looks like you have a pretty good idea of what happened, which seems to be too many people moving into an area.  Those immigrants  improvising living conditions.

There has been a lot of immigration to some areas where people have done "do it yourself" upgrades. They are not trained in the right way to do things.  Inspectors are over worked and don´t get to check it all.

On a personal level, I have a friend who is an engineer, who has a neighbor who has property a little higher than his. This neighbor put drainage in a way that causes it to run into the engineers property, wich caused weakening of the engineers structure.  It´s a long complicated technical issue...if he calls inspectors.....they don´t really have the technical knowledge....anyway... you get the jist of it?

 Yes you are right, I do have a pretty good idea what some of the problems are, increasing population in the city requires more accomodation to be built.  Poor planning as in terms of planning population growth and housing is part of the problem, building on river beds etc.  But in the end, this is the worst storm seen in Istanbul for 80 years so not all down to serious negligence.  It is also down to our total lack of respect for our planet and we are all responsible for that!

Perhaps thehandsom can comment on the techinical side a little better than the assumptions I and Alameda are making.  

It is very sad that people lives are so badly disrupted and the UK too has seen many episodes like this, except not so many deaths.  It takes months to clean up and return to normal.

I´m off to a climate change seminar to night as it happens.........

Well..

Authorities were warned by the meteorology/weather station in advance..

Dont we have civil enginners in Turkey who are able to calculate what would happen if that amount of rain drops in an area?

That stream  flooded 14 years ago too..Why did not local governments do anything?

Ok..Lets forget why nothing has been done to that stream..

The flood came into the road and killed people..

Why on earth did  you not close the road to the traffic? 

You know that the rain is coming; you know that the river/stream is going to flood, you dont need to be a professor in a civil engineering faculty to think that  water will have to go somewhere!!

The PM was the head of local government when that stream was flooded 14 years ago!!

This is not a financial problem..

Istanbul is a rich city. 

Budget of Istanbul municipality is quite huge!!

..

Anyway..

It is terrible to watch that people are dying with the knowledge that it could have been prevented..

I kind of feel the same way about Hurrican Katrina in New Orleans.  The Mississippi River, one of the larges Rivers in the WORLD, was ABOVE some neighborshoods BEFORE the storm...in other words, homes where build BELOW sea level.  Is it just me or is there something wrong when people build homes in an obviously dangerous place and then sell them to poor people?  Where is the responsibility on the part of city officials?

FYI - If you live in a neighborhood and have to look up to see the river...there could be a problem!!

In any case, it´s sad to see this happen in my favorite city.  Sad to see so many lives lost.  It is such a tragedy!

When you compare it to the magnitude of  irresponsibility displayed during hurricane  Katrina you get a different picture....."Brownie, you´re doing a heckuva job"

+++++

People should be help responsible....why aren´t they?  I look for flood plains....take the high road....

 Not necessarily. 40% of my country is below sea level and we haven´t had a flood with victims since 1953 (only a few, I think 6 and 12 years back with some minor material damage). It all depends on continuing repairs, maintenance.

Yes, your people have been remarkable in their industriousness and responsibility.

I wish I could see - at least once in my lifetime - those responsible officers who signed the construction certificates, occupancy permits etc for all those buildings constructed within river beds or well known run off channels. PUNISHED.

Drowning them in luke warm water should be sufficient.

This is like watching the same thing again and again..

We had that earthquake in Izmit..20.000-40.000 people died..How many people are in jail right now because of those faulty buildings? I dont know how many personally but I assume not  many..

We know that earthquake will strike in Istanbul, we know there will be many dead.

can it be prevented? not the earthquake, but you can prevent many deads.

But we know what is going to happen..yet again!!

+++++++I agree on the punished part...it goes on everywhere, not just Turkey....graft, corruption, lack of concern, I´ve got mine...get your own....The dehuminization & marginalization of the less fortunate.

When it reaches critical mass, when it´s so bad it´s intolerable, something will be done.  As long as citizens accept it, it will go on.  Until we see ourselves in the rest of humanity, it  will continue.  I guess it´s about compassion, empathy.  If  that doesn´t work, then punishment helps.

No lukwarm water, I want them to understand what they have done.  How do you do that?

How about boiling hot water?

I have a suggestion. Maybe we should put together a legal team (US has an overabundance of attorneys, I´m sure they´d be interested) and let´s sue nature. Maybe if we teach her a lesson there won´t be any more floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, high temperatures, low temperatures, droughts, etc., etc. If we´re going to point a finger, let´s point it at the real culprit.

 True, but the Netherlands does nothave to content with the Atlantic Hurrican Season.....and your government constantly works to maintain the integrity of the dike system.  Our government doesn´t even take care of the bridges in our country!  A huge percentage of them are failing!

Most these tragedies are not because of natural phenomenon, but man´s inadequate preparation and response to it. 

Why are permits for building in flood plains given?  Why are wooden buildings build in well known fire zones?  Most these disasters are because of human negligence or worse?  Why do inspector pass shoddy construction?..........I think we know.......

+++ In CA we have some serious problems our levee system.  I sure wish they would FIX them!

When I lived in NYC and went down FDR Drive and looked at the rusting supports, it made me very nervous.

Alameda...Dont be so naive; this is not only incompetence or negligence.

The man, who as the Mayor of Istanbul experienced a very similar disaster to this one, and comperable in scale in 1994, is now the Priminister of Turkia.

He should know the answers to all your questions. His 20 year old sun recently bought a cargo ship, and his wife is starting the biggest hospital chain Turkia has ever seen.

They are all downright bright geniuses....What do you say?

Hot water reatment strongly recommended.

This is exactly why I don´t trust ANY government to "help" me with anything!  They are all more interested in their own self interests and getting re-elected or making money....etc.  In my eyes, this is just the sad truth. 

I don´t necessarily agree with you. Yes, sometimes the preparation and prevention is not adequate and the death toll is much higher than necessary (e.g. Katrina). And I understand the just indignation at the negligence. But many a times no matter how good the preparation is, nature still claims her victims.

Having lived in Florida for many years, I´ve been thru my share of hurricanes, the worst of them hurricane Charlie in Punta Gorda. The Emergency Preparadness there (Charlotte County) is one of the best in the country. And yet still there were deaths. Some people died because of their stupidity - one guy went outside to smoke a cigarette in the midst of category IV hurricane  . Some people don´t evacuate or don´t secure their houses adequately. But ALL of them know that they live in a state that is in the potential path of a hurricane and it is a risk they are taking in exchange of nice weather and beaches. Bottom line is, if you want to be safe from hurricanes, move to Wisconsin. By the same token, being flooded is a risk a person takes when they chose to live in a flood-prone area.

We are the government Elisabeth.  I would rather not have private entities that are not transparant deal with things.  At least government is answerable to the people.  It is up to us, the citizens to watch them and hold them responsible.

 You are so much more idealistic and hopeful than I am, alameda.  I know what you are saying is supposed to be true but it simply doesn´t work that way in real life, at least as far as I can tell. 

Exactly!!! Private corporate tyrannies don´t even need to care about anything but their own profit, and they do it at any cost! (even if that means killing people, destroying the environment...)

There are some social issues that only a government can take care of, and in a functioning democracy, the government is responsible for its actions. Unfortunately, we can´t say that about the system in the US... people are apathetic and the government does not even care what people think!

It is also about transparancy.  Private businesses, corporations, do not have to disclose things to the public.  Private corporations are opaque.  Government has to keep books open.  You know who is responsible for what.  Thus they can be help accountable.

The issue is one of accountability.

Private enterpise helps restore peace in homeland...Look how Blackwater strives to despatch all junkies, hoodlums, unemployed etc to Iraq.

Keep USA clean  is their motto.

Blackwater is no more.  It has been rebranded as Xe.

"Xe is a private military contractor co-founded by former Navy Seal Erik Prince.  It was formerly called Blackwater Worldwide, and before that Blackwater USA.  In February 2009, Blackwater changed its name to "Xe," (pronounced like the letter "Z"), as part of a "rebranding" effort aimed at helping the company distance itself from negative incidents.........."

 Ok...well if you believe that our government is "transparent" and that they disclose everything then there is nothing left to talk about.  I think government can hide anything and do whatever they want.  They are answerable to no one because there is no higher authority in the land.  I believe that the government has a strick policy of plasible deniability and the more power they have, the more they will abuse it.......but that´s just my paranoia talking (Where are those weapons of mass destruction anyway?) 

But we are getting away from the point.....My point was that people can not expect governments to take care of them and do the right thing.  They must think for themselves......so in that way I do agree with you, alameda.  We have so many homes here in Texas that are build on flood plains and during Hurricane Ike many ended up under water.  The government has paid for these people to rebuild on the same plots of land......AND THEY DO IT!  DAHHHH!  Talk about giving people enough rope to hang themselves with!

The difference is in what is supposed to happen.  Of course people in government attempt to hide things, and they often succeed..........but there are things like the FOIA act and the fact that they are accountable.   It is up to us to demand it.

Remember, we elect these people! The Us government is "of the people, by the people, and for the people."

As for those homes in a flood plain...who zoned it for homes?  You are a Texan, go after them?  Shine a light on it.  It is possible the home owners were ignorant, but the ones who zoned it are required to know.

When people get money for destroyed homes in fire zones, flood plaines or other inappropriate places, I think it should it should be specified they rebuild in safe zones.  That would save money and preserve delicate ecco systems too.