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gidip dönüp ?
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1.       machiavelli
3 posts
 27 Sep 2009 Sun 08:43 am

Hi,

What does it mean whenever there is a p at the end of a verb like the "gidip" or "dönüp" i have seen it a couple of times but can´t figure it out. Is it a kind of participle or what?

thanks

2.       Bea Blanchi
213 posts
 27 Sep 2009 Sun 08:53 am

 

Quoting machiavelli

Hi,

What does it mean whenever there is a p at the end of a verb like the "gidip" or "dönüp" i have seen it a couple of times but can´t figure it out. Is it a kind of participle or what?

thanks

 

In Turkish, I think it works like this (from what I have seen in my books and my learnning so far):

 

The -ip -üp -up -ýp suffixes actually are put at the end of a verb when there are two or more verbs. Then, only the last verb takes the tense and the mark of the person.

An example: ´biz Kapalý Çarþýya gidip, halýcýya girip, halýya baktýk´.

We went to the Kapalý Çarþý, went to a carpet seller, looked at carpets.

 

In this example, only the last verb takes the mark of the past tense and 1st person plural.

 

However, my own understanding of the rule and the explanation I am giving might be too simple or wrong, only learner.

 

Please wait for more advanced learners or native speakers to complete this. Thanks.

 

3.       machiavelli
3 posts
 27 Sep 2009 Sun 08:57 am

thanks a lot

4.       fico
5 posts
 29 Sep 2009 Tue 10:31 am

I am only a learner, but Bea Blanchi´s explanation is correct.  One more thing - it is only used if the verbs are the same tense and if the subject is the same.

 

 



Edited (9/29/2009) by fico [if, not it]

5.       Bea Blanchi
213 posts
 29 Sep 2009 Tue 11:19 am

 

Quoting fico

I am only a learner, but Bea Blanchi´s explanation is correct.  One more thing - it is only used if the verbs are the same tense and if the subject is the same.

 

 

 

Thank fico for adding this, I had forgotten!

6.       ReyhanL
1961 posts
 29 Sep 2009 Tue 11:25 am

You dont use it in this case:

 

we will go home and I will work. =  Eve döneceðiz ve çalýþacaðým.  

 

 

7.       Henry
2604 posts
 29 Sep 2009 Tue 01:18 pm

I had this explained to me once as similar to an English sentence saying:

I am writing Turkish and I am reading Turkish and I am speaking Turkish.

In English we would shorten this to:

I am writing, reading and speaking Turkish. (ie dropping some of the "I am"s)

Similarly in Turkish you wouldn´t say:

Türkçe yazýyorum ve Türkçe okuyorum ve Türkçe konuþuyorum.

I think it becomes:

Türkçe yazýp okuyup konuþuyorum (again dropping the ´I am/um´ and also the ´...ing/uyor´

8.       upsy_daisy
200 posts
 29 Sep 2009 Tue 06:29 pm

We use suffix –ip

1) when the subject  performs  two actions in one sentence.

Gittim. Gördüm. (two sentences)

Gittim ve gördüm. (one sentence with the conjunction ve)

Gidip gördüm. (one sentence with the suffix -ip)

Note that  when the first verb takes the suffix –ip, the second one remains as it is.

You should keep in mind that it is not proper to use the suffix –ip more than once in a sentence:

 So, instead of “Türkçe yazýp okuyup konuþuyorum” it is more proper to say “Türkçe yazýyor, okuyor ve konuþuyorum”

And

´biz Kapalý Çarþýya gidip, halýcýya girip, halýya baktýk´ should be said as follows:

Biz Kapalý Çarþý’ya gittik, bir halýcýya girip halýlara baktýk.

2) in place of the suffix –ince.

Gidince göreceksin.

Gidip göreceksin.

Note that they are not always interchangeable.

3) (verb+ip) + dur  => keep + (verb+ing)

Gülüp durma – don’t keep laughing

Bütün gün aðlayýp durdu – s/he kept crying all day long

Erkek arkadaþýndan þikayet edip duruyor - She keeps complaining about her boyfriend

 

 



Edited (9/29/2009) by upsy_daisy

9.       si++
3785 posts
 30 Sep 2009 Wed 07:49 am

 

Quoting upsy_daisy

We use suffix –ip

1) when the subject  performs  two actions in one sentence.

Gittim. Gördüm. (two sentences)

Gittim ve gördüm. (one sentence with the conjunction ve)

Gidip gördüm. (one sentence with the suffix -ip)

Note that  when the first verb takes the suffix –ip, the second one remains as it is.

You should keep in mind that it is not proper to use the suffix –ip more than once in a sentence:

I don´t see any problem with twice

Gidip gelip birþeyler atýþtýrýyor.

Bakýp bakýp duruyor ama birþey demiyor.

Merdivenler inip çýkýp duruyor.

 So, instead of “Türkçe yazýp okuyup konuþuyorum” it is more proper to say “Türkçe yazýyor, okuyor ve konuþuyorum”

In colloquial language we don´t use "ve" much and prefer shorter forms. I would say it as

Türkçe yazar, okur, konuþurum.

And

´biz Kapalý Çarþýya gidip, halýcýya girip, halýya baktýk´ should be said as follows:

Biz Kapalý Çarþý’ya gittik, bir halýcýya girip halýlara baktýk.

2) in place of the suffix –ince.

Gidince göreceksin.

Gidip göreceksin.

Note that they are not always interchangeable.

3) (verb+ip) + dur  => keep + (verb+ing)

Gülüp durma – don’t keep laughing

Bütün gün aðlayýp durdu – s/he kept crying all day long

Erkek arkadaþýndan þikayet edip duruyor - She keeps complaining about her boyfriend

 

 

 

 

10.       Henry
2604 posts
 30 Sep 2009 Wed 09:01 am

Thank you upsy daisy and si++ for explaining this further. It is very helpful for all learners.

11.       upsy_daisy
200 posts
 30 Sep 2009 Wed 05:04 pm



Quote:




We use suffix –ip


1) when the subject  performs  two actions in one sentence.


Gittim. Gördüm. (two sentences)


Gittim ve gördüm. (one sentence with the conjunction ve)


Gidip gördüm. (one sentence with the suffix -ip)


Note that  when the first verb takes the suffix –ip, the second one remains as it is.


You should keep in mind that it is not proper to use the suffix –ip more than once in a sentence:


I don´t see any problem with twice


Gidip gelip birþeyler atýþtýrýyor.


Bakýp bakýp duruyor ama birþey demiyor.


Merdivenler inip çýkýp duruyor.


I can understand you not seeing any problem with "twice". After all it´s your choice (and I am not a "language police").It is free to use -ip many times in a sentence (you won´t be punished for this,but "this" will punish you)...And I would like to inform you that the examples you gave are phrases or idioms and they have nothing to do with the rule.Let us have an example as follows:


Eve dönüp odama girip bilgisayarýmý açýp internete girdim.


Do you think using so much -ip in one sentence sounds nice?

 So, instead of “Türkçe yazýp okuyup konuþuyorum” it is more proper to say “Türkçe yazýyor, okuyor ve konuþuyorum”


In colloquial language we don´t use "ve" much and prefer shorter forms. I would say it as


Türkçe yazar, okur, konuþurum.


Well, I respect your choice respect mine.However, I still recommend you to use ve before the last word. Believe me it sounds better.


And


´biz Kapalý Çarþýya gidip, halýcýya girip, halýya baktýk´ should be said as follows:


Biz Kapalý Çarþý’ya gittik, bir halýcýya girip halýlara baktýk.


2) in place of the suffix –ince.


Gidince göreceksin.


Gidip göreceksin.


Note that they are not always interchangeable.


3) (verb+ip) + dur  => keep + (verb+ing)


Gülüp durma – don’t keep laughing


Bütün gün aðlayýp durdu – s/he kept crying all day long


Erkek arkadaþýndan þikayet edip duruyor - She keeps complaining about her boyfriend





12.       si++
3785 posts
 30 Sep 2009 Wed 07:41 pm

 

Quoting upsy_daisy

Quote:

We use suffix –ip

1) when the subject  performs  two actions in one sentence.

Gittim. Gördüm. (two sentences)

Gittim ve gördüm. (one sentence with the conjunction ve)

Gidip gördüm. (one sentence with the suffix -ip)

Note that  when the first verb takes the suffix –ip, the second one remains as it is.

You should keep in mind that it is not proper to use the suffix –ip more than once in a sentence:

I don´t see any problem with twice

Gidip gelip birþeyler atýþtýrýyor.

Bakýp bakýp duruyor ama birþey demiyor.

Merdivenler inip çýkýp duruyor.

I can understand you not seeing any problem with "twice". After all it´s your choice (and I am not a "language police").It is free to use -ip many times in a sentence (you won´t be punished for this,but "this" will punish you)...And I would like to inform you that the examples you gave are phrases or idioms and they have nothing to do with the rule.Let us have an example as follows:

Eve dönüp odama girip bilgisayarýmý açýp internete girdim.

Do you think using so much -ip in one sentence sounds nice?

It sounds OK to me. I understand that it may not sound OK to you.

 So, instead of “Türkçe yazýp okuyup konuþuyorum” it is more proper to say “Türkçe yazýyor, okuyor ve konuþuyorum”

In colloquial language we don´t use "ve" much and prefer shorter forms. I would say it as

Türkçe yazar, okur, konuþurum.

Well, I respect your choice respect mine.However, I still recommend you to use ve before the last word. Believe me it sounds better.

We don´t use "ve" that much and believe me I prefer "ve"-less version (with the help of some intonation) when speaking. Yeah when writing , "ve" may pop up there.

And

´biz Kapalý Çarþýya gidip, halýcýya girip, halýya baktýk´ should be said as follows:

Biz Kapalý Çarþý’ya gittik, bir halýcýya girip halýlara baktýk.

2) in place of the suffix –ince.

Gidince göreceksin.

Gidip göreceksin.

Note that they are not always interchangeable.

3) (verb+ip) + dur  => keep + (verb+ing)

Gülüp durma – don’t keep laughing

Bütün gün aðlayýp durdu – s/he kept crying all day long

Erkek arkadaþýndan þikayet edip duruyor - She keeps complaining about her boyfriend

 

 

 

 

13.       upsy_daisy
200 posts
 01 Oct 2009 Thu 02:10 am

si++, your replies prove nothing.While I am talking about commonly accepted general rules and principals, you are talking about your style of speaking Turkish.Even if I don´t approve it, I do respect your style.You can use -ip as many time as you want in a sentence (not minding to be the only one who does it), or avoid from using ve (with the help of some intonation/BTW I wonder what is wrong with using ve). After all,it is up to you, not anyone else, but, according to my point of view,  a language having no conjunction ve/and/und etc, is lame.

14.       si++
3785 posts
 01 Oct 2009 Thu 06:40 am

 

Quoting upsy_daisy

si++, your replies prove nothing.While I am talking about commonly accepted general rules and principals, you are talking about your style of speaking Turkish.Even if I don´t approve it, I do respect your style.You can use -ip as many time as you want in a sentence (not minding to be the only one who does it), or avoid from using ve (with the help of some intonation/BTW I wonder what is wrong with using ve). After all,it is up to you, not anyone else, but, according to my point of view,  a language having no conjunction ve/and/und etc, is lame.

OK. So you mean it was lame before we imported it from Arabic? "Ve" is not needed in Turkish as in other languages. Turkish has other means (-ip is one of them, ile is another, intonation can be used in colloquial language). I bet there are native speakers (those who are illeterate) out there  who have never used "ve" in their lifetime. And I myself (who is a literate person) rarely use it if not at all. And I think it´s a fact (I have not a proof of it but it´s my observation) that "ve" is used much less in collequial language.

 

I guess we should agree on disagreeing on this issue.

 



Edited (10/1/2009) by si++

15.       Suyu
78 posts
 01 Oct 2009 Thu 12:00 pm

Thanks for the topic, I also was wondering about this. About "ve"... I noticed that it isnt used much in everyday language, even when I use it myself I feel strange and feel that native speakers dont see it as "normal sounding". But I am a beginner and for now to say "ve" is easier for me.

16.       upsy_daisy
200 posts
 02 Oct 2009 Fri 04:08 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

OK. So you mean it was lame before we imported it from Arabic? "Ve" is not needed in Turkish as in other languages. Turkish has other means (-ip is one of them, ile is another, intonation can be used in colloquial language). I bet there are native speakers (those who are illeterate) out there  who have never used "ve" in their lifetime. And I myself (who is a literate person) rarely use it if not at all. And I think it´s a fact (I have not a proof of it but it´s my observation) that "ve" is used much less in collequial language.

 

I guess we should agree on disagreeing on this issue.

 

 

 If you are talking about those folks who are illiterate and use a limitted language, or literate but use a trite or poor language, thenyes, you are right. It appears likely that we are talking about different things. Our colloquial language,in general, is limited up to 300 or 350 words (or make it 500 including taboo words), and full of common errors* that some are really ridiculous(örneðin mesela, nüans farký, alternatif seçenekler**,etc.). So, my guide to the Turkish Language is not illiterates nor those who are literate but ignorant.(Of course,I don´t mean you.)

 

I may guess you like N.Hikmet´s poems.

 

MEMLEKETÝMÝ SEVÝYORUM

Memleketimi seviyorum :
Çýnarlarýnda kolan vurdum, hapisanelerinde yattým.
Hiçbir þey gidermez iç sýkýntýmý
memleketimin þarkýlarý ve tütünü gibi.

Memleketim :
Bedreddin, Sinan, Yunus Emre ve Sakarya,
kurþun kubbeler ve fabrika bacalarý
benim o kendi kendinden bile gizleyerek
sarkýk býyýklarý altýndan gülen halkýmýn eseridir.

Memleketim.
Memleketim ne kadar geniþ :
dolaþmakla bitmez, tükenmez gibi geliyor insana.
Edirne, Ýzmir, Ulukýþla, Maraþ, Trabzon, Erzurum.
Erzurum yaylasýný yalnýz türkülerinden tanýyorum
ve güneye
pamuk iþleyenlere gitmek için
Toroslardan bir kerre olsun geçemedim diye
                                                   utanýyorum.

Memleketim :
develer, tren, Ford arabalarý ve hasta eþekler,
kavak
       söðüt
              ve kýrmýzý toprak.

Memleketim.
Çam ormanlarýný, en tatlý sularý ve dað baþý göllerini seven
                                                               alabalýk
              ve onun yarým kiloluðu
                          pulsuz, gümüþ derisinde kýzýltýlarla
                                           Bolu´nun Abant gölünde yüzer.

Memleketim :
Ankara ovasýnda keçiler :
kumral, ipekli, uzun kürklerin pýrýldamasý.
Yaðlý, aðýr fýndýðý Giresun´un.
Al yanaklý mis gibi kokan Amasya elmasý,
zeytin
        incir
             kavun
ve renk renk
                 salkým salkým üzümler
ve sonra karasaban
ve sonra kara sýðýr
ve sonra : ileri, güzel, iyi
                             her þeyi
            hayran bir çocuk sevinciyle kabule hazýr
çalýþkan, namuslu, yiðit insanlarým
                                yarý aç, yarý tok
                                                 yarý esir...

Remove the ve-s from the poem and see if -ip or ile could save it from becoming dry...

 

*for example, "bu sayede"  and "bu yüzden" are not interchangeable but you can find them interchangeable in colloquial language.

**I heard it from a speaker on TV. (Kanal D)

 

 

17.       si++
3785 posts
 02 Oct 2009 Fri 04:54 pm

 

Quoting upsy_daisy

 

 

 If you are talking about those folks who are illiterate and use a limitted language, or literate but use a trite or poor language, thenyes, you are right. It appears likely that we are talking about different things. Our colloquial language,in general, is limited up to 300 or 350 words (or make it 500 including taboo words), and full of common errors* that some are really ridiculous(örneðin mesela, nüans farký, alternatif seçenekler**,etc.). So, my guide to the Turkish Language is not illiterates nor those who are literate but ignorant.(Of course,I don´t mean you.)

 

I may guess you like N.Hikmet´s poems.

 

MEMLEKETÝMÝ SEVÝYORUM

Memleketimi seviyorum :
Çýnarlarýnda kolan vurdum, hapisanelerinde yattým.
Hiçbir þey gidermez iç sýkýntýmý
memleketimin þarkýlarý ve tütünü gibi.

Memleketim :
Bedreddin, Sinan, Yunus Emre ve Sakarya,
kurþun kubbeler ve fabrika bacalarý
benim o kendi kendinden bile gizleyerek
sarkýk býyýklarý altýndan gülen halkýmýn eseridir.

Memleketim.
Memleketim ne kadar geniþ :
dolaþmakla bitmez, tükenmez gibi geliyor insana.
Edirne, Ýzmir, Ulukýþla, Maraþ, Trabzon, Erzurum.
Erzurum yaylasýný yalnýz türkülerinden tanýyorum
ve güneye
pamuk iþleyenlere gitmek için
Toroslardan bir kerre olsun geçemedim diye
                                                   utanýyorum.

Memleketim :
develer, tren, Ford arabalarý ve hasta eþekler,
kavak
       söðüt
              ve kýrmýzý toprak.

Memleketim.
Çam ormanlarýný, en tatlý sularý ve dað baþý göllerini seven
                                                               alabalýk
              ve onun yarým kiloluðu
                          pulsuz, gümüþ derisinde kýzýltýlarla
                                           Bolu´nun Abant gölünde yüzer.

Memleketim :
Ankara ovasýnda keçiler :
kumral, ipekli, uzun kürklerin pýrýldamasý.
Yaðlý, aðýr fýndýðý Giresun´un.
Al yanaklý mis gibi kokan Amasya elmasý,
zeytin
        incir
             kavun
ve renk renk
                 salkým salkým üzümler
ve sonra karasaban
ve sonra kara sýðýr
ve sonra : ileri, güzel, iyi
                             her þeyi
            hayran bir çocuk sevinciyle kabule hazýr
çalýþkan, namuslu, yiðit insanlarým
                                yarý aç, yarý tok
                                                 yarý esir...

Remove the ve-s from the poem and see if -ip or ile could save it from becoming dry...

 

*for example, "bu sayede"  and "bu yüzden" are not interchangeable but you can find them interchangeable in colloquial language.

**I heard it from a speaker on TV. (Kanal D)

 

 

My point is that illiterate persons are not exposed to loans in the written language. So they don´t use this alien feature at all.

 

I like Yunus Emre. Could you find any "ve" in his poems?

 

Ben yürürüm yana yana
Aþk boyadý beni kana
Ne deliyem ne divane
Gel gör beni aþk neyledi

Gah eserim yeller gibi
Gah tozarým yollar gibi
Gah akarým seller gibi
Gel gör beni aþk neyledi

Akar sularýn çaðlarým
Dertli ciðerim daðlarým
Þeyhim anuban aðlarým
Gel gör beni aþk neyledi

Ya elim al kaldýr beni
Ya vaslýna erdir beni
Çok aðlattin güldür beni
Gel gör beni aþk neyledi

Ben yururum ilden ile
Seyh anarim dilden dile
Gurbette halim kim bile
Gel gör beni ask neyledi

Mecnun oluban yürürüm
O yari düþte görürüm
Uyanýp melul olurum
Gel gör beni aþk neyledi

Miskin YUNUS biçareyim
Baþtan ayaða yareyim
Dost elinde avareyim
Gel gör beni aþk neyledi

 

18.       si++
3785 posts
 02 Oct 2009 Fri 04:57 pm

 

Quoting Suyu

Thanks for the topic, I also was wondering about this. About "ve"... I noticed that it isnt used much in everyday language, even when I use it myself I feel strange and feel that native speakers dont see it as "normal sounding". But I am a beginner and for now to say "ve" is easier for me.

Thank you for sharing this observation. It´s amazing (for me at least) that non-native speakers can see it as well.

 

19.       upsy_daisy
200 posts
 30 Nov 2009 Mon 05:15 am

 

Quoting si++

 

My point is that illiterate persons are not exposed to loans in the written language. So they don´t use this alien feature at all.

 

I like Yunus Emre. Could you find any "ve" in his poems?

 

Ben yürürüm yana yana
Aşk boyadı beni kana
Ne deliyem ne divane
Gel gör beni
aşk neyledi

Gah eserim yeller gibi
Gah tozarım yollar gibi
Gah akarım seller gibi
Gel gör beni
aşk neyledi

Akar suların çağlarım
Dertli
ciğerim dağlarım
Şeyhim anuban ağlarım
Gel gör beni
aşk neyledi

Ya elim al kaldır beni
Ya vaslına erdir beni
Çok ağlattin güldür beni
Gel gör beni
aşk neyledi

Ben yururum ilden ile
Seyh anarim dilden dile
Gurbette halim kim bile
Gel gör beni
ask neyledi

Mecnun oluban yürürüm
O
yari düşte görürüm
Uyanıp
melul olurum
Gel gör beni
aşk neyledi

Miskin YUNUS biçareyim
Baştan ayağa yareyim
Dost elinde avareyim
Gel gör beni
aşk neyledi

 

 

Make sense si++, there is no ve but still 17 loanwords (32%):

 

aşk- arabic-noun

divane – persian- adj.

gah – persian – adverb

dert- persian – noun

ciğer – persian- noun

şeyh- arabic-noun

ya-persian-particle

gurbet-arabic-noun

hal-arabic-noun

mecnun – arabic- adj.

yar – persian - noun

melul – arabic – adj.

miskin-arabic-adj.

biçare – persian- adj.

dost-persian-noun

avare- persian – adj.

vasl- arabic- adj.



Do you think he didn’t use ve with the same reason as yours?

 

My example was quite different from yours. Did I say every poem must have ve in it? What I said was that if you removed ve-s from that poem,it would be dried.Right? You are confusing things a little perhaps?

 

It is clear that you don’t know much about loanwords in Turkish.

20.       mylo
856 posts
 30 Nov 2009 Mon 05:25 am

This has been well explained but it goes like this whack the suffix ´ip´ on the end of a word carry one and the ´ip´ part basically replaces the ´ve´ part good luck

21.       si++
3785 posts
 30 Nov 2009 Mon 10:37 am

 

Quoting upsy_daisy

 

 

 

Make sense si++, there is no ve but still 17 loanwords (32%):

 

aşk- arabic-noun

divane – persian- adj.

gah – persian – adverb

dert- persian – noun

ciğer – persian- noun

şeyh- arabic-noun

ya-persian-particle

gurbet-arabic-noun

hal-arabic-noun

mecnun – arabic- adj.

yar – persian - noun

melul – arabic – adj.

miskin-arabic-adj.

biçare – persian- adj.

dost-persian-noun

avare- persian – adj.

vasl- arabic- adj.



Do you think he didn’t use ve with the same reason as yours?

 

My example was quite different from yours. Did I say every poem must have ve in it? What I said was that if you removed ve-s from that poem,it would be dried.Right? You are confusing things a little perhaps?

 

It is clear that you don’t know much about loanwords in Turkish.

 

 

So what? I mentioned Yunus Emre because he used the collequial language mostly in his poems. He may have used many loan words but not any "ve" at all.

 

Anothere example is Aşık Veysel. Can you find any "ve" in his poems?

 

And by the way you can have no idea of how much I know about loanwords in Turkish. I am curious of what makes you think you know more than me. Sidik yarışı mı yapıyoruz?

 

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