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150.       armegon
1872 posts
 21 Apr 2010 Wed 06:58 pm

 

Quoting turkaturk

 

 

From a documentary in 1992 directed by Bozkurt Palanduz...

 

"McCarthy´s work has been the subject of criticism from book reviewers and genocide scholars. According to Israeli historian Yair Auron, McCarthy, "with Heath Lowry, Lewis´ successor in Princeton, leads the list of deniers of the Armenian Genocide." Among other criticisms, he has been accused by Colin Imber of following a Turkish nationalistic agenda. McCarthy is a member of, and has received grants from, the Institute of Turkish Studies. According to Richard G. Hovannisian, Stanford Shaw, Heath Lowry and Justin McCarthy all use arguments similar to those found in Holocaust denial."

 

See? Everybody can find funky things on internet. So.. whatever!

 

 

 

So what do you expect? Its true everyone can find anything on net, so what will be present here to show something? Personal experiences, other peoples opinions, what else left?  No one is able to find an objective source, because then i can question the reliability of Yair Auron and Richard G. Hovannissian, just easy to google. And it is very normal that Mccarthy appreciated by Turkish nation...Its like these are genocide deniers so these people are not reliable and their survey is nothing but garbage... All surveys are garbage, because you can label anyone with anything...

 

151.       Trudy
7887 posts
 21 Apr 2010 Wed 07:19 pm

 

Quoting barba_mama

God save us if the view of Europeans is based on research about AMERICANS. And God save us again if the view of Europeans is based on the people who go to the barstreets in touristic resorts and spend all their money on alcohol. That is a limited, biased sample on which you can draw no conclusions. If you base your opinion about women on the girls who go to a chippendale show, you would think all women like to watch naked men, and are focussed on sexual things. If you base your view of women on the girls who go to a feminist rally, you would think all women have a powerful opinion on their rights and are activily envolved in improving them. If you would base your opinion of women on the waiting room at the doctors office, you would think that all women are either pregnant or sick, or both. Do you REALLY want me to base my opinion on Turkish people on, for example, the guys who work in a barstreet in a tourist-resort? Because in that case all Turkish people are more interested in money then in being a good person, sleep around with everybody just to be able to make more money, and fake love just to get a new phone.

 

You are doing exactly what you are accuse others of. Luckily the majority of Europeans are not like you.

 

Save your breath, Barba, of course ´we´ westerners are ALL bad & evil, racist, ignorant, Turkey-hating bastards. Of course, because the view some have about some others (misbehaving tourists in barstreet, Wilders-fans etc.) is immediately true for ALL from these countries.

 

But..... my oh my when ´we´ dare to compare Turks with people from other (Muslim) countries or dare to compare all Turks. (Does the fact that Hrant Dink was killed by a Turk mean that all Turks are murderers?) If we dare to compare, the world, no the universe is too small for the complaints of some. Poor Calimero´s. 

152.       spritzer
106 posts
 21 Apr 2010 Wed 07:53 pm

 no matter how much information any one of you can pull off internet or find in a book it really makes no difference it will always continue because as long as humans pay homage to other´s there will be disgruntle´s in the background. All you are doing is trying to keep score and numbers are just numbers. They don´t have any mystical powers

Einstein said it best " Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolized. It is an irony of fate that I myself have been the recipient of excessive admiration and reverence from my fellow-beings, through no fault, and no merit, of my own."

my opinion

Stop being concerned what the rest of the world says about you. Nasty people can’t make you mad. Nice people can’t make you happy. Events or people are simply events or people. They can’t make you anything. You have to do that for yourself. Whatever emotions arise in you as a result of external events, they’re powerless until you pick them up and decide to act on them.



Edited (4/21/2010) by spritzer

153.       spritzer
106 posts
 21 Apr 2010 Wed 07:57 pm

everyone is a stone thrower there are no innocent parties here I am sure every country does the same - my point....... stop keeping it alive in each generation

 

Agop’un kazı gibi yutmak: Önüne konulan her yemeği çabucak bitirmek… (Ermenilerin açgözlülüğüne vurguyla)

To swallow like Agop’s goose: To eat every meal that is put in front of him/her…(with a emphasis to greediness of Armenians.

 

Alavere dalavere, Kürt Memet nöbete: Bir işte bütün yükü, sorumluluğu yetersiz kişiye bırakma durumunda söylenir.

Dirty tricks, Kurd Memet to duty: It is said when all responsibility is left to a disqualified person.

 

Anladıysam Arap olayım: Söylenen bir şeyin anlaşılmazlığına inandırmak için kullanılır.

If I understand let me be an Arab: It is used to convince someone something said is  incomprehensibility

 

 

Arap eli öpmekle dudak kararmaz: Kirli pis-çirkin bir şeye bulaşmakla, insan kirlenmez anlamındadır.

By kissing hand of an Arab, lips don’t turn black: It means by messing with a dirty-bad thing, people don’t become dirty.

 

Arap saçına dönmek: Bir şeyin karmakarışık olması.

To turn into Arab’s hair: Turning something into mess

 

Arnavut inadı: Aklı, mantığı ve evreni hiçe sayan ruh hali.

Stubborness of an Albanian: A situation of the soul disregarding reason, logic and universe

 

Çıfıt: Yahudileri aşağılamak için kullanılan bir tabirdir.

Kike:  An expression is used to insult Jews.

 

Çingene kavgası: Önemsiz atışmalarla başlayan, yakası açılmadık küfürlerle dolu kavga.

The gypsy quarrel: A quarrel which starts with unimportant bickerings and goes on with heavy swears.

 

Çingene düğünü: Gürültülü topluluk.

Gypsy wedding: Noisy group

 

Emeni dölü: Ermeni olmanın aşağılayıcı bir şey olduğunu belirtmek amacıyla kullanılır. Ermeni olmayan kişiler için kullanıldığında ’hain’i ima eder.

Armenian seed: It is used with the aim of expressing it is humiliating to be an Armenian. When it is used for people who isn’t Armenian, it refers to traitor.

 

Ermeni gelini gibi: Daima kırıtan, süzülen kadınlar için yapılan benzetme.

Like an Armenian bride: A simile  done for women who behave always coquettishly and always eyed by men

 

 

 

Ermeni misin? :Haksızlık yapanlara, zulüm edenlere söylenir. (Özellikle İznik, Müşküle Köyü’nde)

Are you an Armenian?: It is said to those who do an injustice,behave cruelly(Especially in İznik, in Müşküle village.)

 

Mademki Ermeni istemeden vermeli: Nakarat olsun diye uydurulmuş, Ermenilerden her şeyin istenebileceğini ima eden bir deyim.

If he is an Armenian, he should give unwillingly: It is made up to be a refrain, an idiom to imply everything can be wanted from Armenians.

 

Papaz: Hoşgörüsüz, yaşlı kimse.

Priest: Merciless, old person

 

Papazcı: Üçkâğıtçı.

Priester:  Trickster

 

Papaz olmak: İki kişi arasında ilişki bozulduğunda kullanılan bir tabir.

To be a priest: An expression which is used when the relation between to people is harmed

 

Papaz uçurmak: İçkili alem yapmak.

To fly a priest: To do a party with alcohol

 

Papazı kaçırmak: Eğlencenin dozunu kaçırıp rezalet çıkarmak.

Make a priest escape: To cause a scandal by spoiling fun

 

Rum tohumu: Rumları dışlamak için kullanılan bir tabir.

Greek seed: An expression is used to externalize Greeks

 

Rum hatunu yatakta, Ermeni hatunu mutfakta…: Kadınları sadece cinsel obje olarak gören bu ifade, her şeyi yerli yerinde yapmak anlamında kullanılır.

Greek woman in bed, Armenian woman in kitchen

 

Sarı Yahudi: Paraya düşkün kişi.

Yellow Jew: A person who is having a passion for Money

 

Senin bu yaptığını Yunan yapmaz: İşlediğin kabahati, en kötü insan bile yapmaz anlamında kullanılan bir ifade.

A Greek don’t this which you have done: It means most evil person can’t do such a fault you have done.

 

Yahudi pazarlığı: Yahudilerin cimriliğine ve bu yüzden kıyasıya pazarlık yaptıklarına inanılarak kullanılan bir deyim.

Jew bargain: An idiom is used by believing stinginesses of Jews and because of it they bargain mercilessly

 



Edited (4/21/2010) by spritzer
Edited (4/21/2010) by spritzer

154.       armegon
1872 posts
 22 Apr 2010 Thu 02:21 am

 

Quoting turkaturk

 

 

 

I agree.

 

My experience is that most of the Turkish people get offended too easily, so that they make their and everybody else´s lives harder.

 

Good to know you talk about your experiences, so do i Smile

 

 

You shouldn´t give a crap what other people say about a nation or a religion which you may be a member of. Why? Because you can never change somebody´s point of view with an argument or a discussion. Not for good. So why wasting your time nagging about it?

 

No one is trying to change other´s point of view, i said there is prejudice against Turkish people, and you asked " what kind of", all initiated like this. So i was not nagging, was just trying to answer your question with my and other people´s experiences. If you see it as nagging, why are you asking? Dont complain about it simply. 

 

We are all individuals. Stop making up reasons why life suck and take things in your hands.

 

Yep we are all individuals but we are living in societies also.

 

If you as a minority in another country (forum) are respectful, smart and nice, at least one person a day would think that your nation (religion) is so friendly, educated and magical. That´s how it works.

 

You know its very hard to break up the prejudice, so people maybe want to stay away from you, that is how it does not work.

 

And for crying out loud, why don´t you stop Googling and start using your brain for giving birth to your own thoughts?

 

You know google is a miracle tool, once you mentioned, if you want to learn other´s opinion from many sources. So i thought i bothered people here so much with my  thoughts, decided use google as an option like many do, you as well instead of using your brain, you google my quotes source ... 

 

 

 



Edited (4/22/2010) by armegon

155.       armegon
1872 posts
 22 Apr 2010 Thu 02:44 am

 

Quoting barba_mama

 

 

To be convincing that the majority of people have prejudice you should have looked at both sides. Both people that have prejudice, and people that don´t. I have experienced enough people in Holland who think I can´t do certain things because I´m a woman. However, this experience doesn´t prove that the majority of Europe has a prejudice that I can´t be good at math

 

Why do i need to look both sides? I asked what the prejudice against Turks is and i tried to reply. And its not only experience but years of savings of people´s thoughts.

 

I´m sure you have encountered prejudice. So have I. So has everybody on this website. But you´re just looking at people who hold a prejudice, and say "this proves my case!". You are on a "rotten apple hunt". A few rotten apples at a fruit-stand doesn´t prove that all or the majority of the apples in the fruit stand ar rotten. Hatred has a bigger impact then love in our memories. You don´t remember that guy in the shop who helped you when you dropped your groceries. You do remember that men who called you a bad name in the street. It´s as simple as that.

 

Why do you need to make up  such  a story? Instead you can say you are generalizing, i can understand that too . Of course it is not like mathematics or solid data, it is shaped in many years even centuries due to observations, experiences or other effects(religion, leaders or propogands). And we are talking about prejudice against Turks not to others, definitely there is prejudice against many people/nations too, for instance Europe has a point of view of Spanish and Europe has a point of view of Turks. Each are different, i say Turks are not such brilliant comparing to others , whats wrong with that? These point of views formed in people´s mind in centuries due to factors i explained above. Thats what i am talking about, no one can go and ask every individual in Europe about what they think about Turks and say "this prove my case", its not natural also. Me didnt say that one too even you and some other tried to twist my posts, im only mentioning years of savings of European and Turkish people. Thats all...

 

 

156.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 22 Apr 2010 Thu 10:43 am

"And we are talking about prejudice against Turks not to others, definitely there is prejudice against many people/nations too, for instance Europe has a point of view of Spanish and Europe has a point of view of Turks."

 

Uhum... You are generalising I don´t have to explain again what that is. Some Europeans have prejudices, that doesn´t mean that "Europe" has a prejudice. Europe is just a piece of ground, of which Spain is a part, as well as a tiny bit of Turkey.

I gave you the rotten apple example to show what people are constantly doing here. Europe is this, Europe is that, because one guy makes a stupid cartoon or one guy says he doesn´t like headscarfs.

157.       si++
3785 posts
 22 Apr 2010 Thu 01:00 pm

 

Quoting gokuyum

 

 

 Si++ you seem like a reasonable person. Please don´t be stubborn. Accept the facts. This matter isn´t only about Turks it is about all nations. I believe people doesn´t see their own mistakes. Because they are egoist. We can discuss this matter on another topic.Please don´t close your eyes to the facts.

 


 

greeting gokuyum,

 

Your link is informative one but honestly I didn´t know most of them and some of those that I know do not sound so negative to me (for example arap saçı.

 

Personally I think I may use only one of them (arap saçı in my daily speech and others of those I know I don´t use them at all nor do I remember having used any of them in the past (honestly and sincerely).

 

Still I cannot see something that compares the case the Turks means "dumb" or "stupid" in Dutch/Russian.

 

Saying İngiliz/Ermeni/Rum/etc bilmemnesi doesn´t necessarily mean that İngiliz/Ermeni/Rum/etc word alone means something negative in the way the word "Türk" means stupid as said above.

 

For example in the link asking "are you armenian" reportedly means something in a small area in İzmit. Do you think it´s a widespread usage? I don´t think so.

158.       barba_mama
1629 posts
 22 Apr 2010 Thu 02:23 pm

 

Quoting lemon

 

 

you are of course right, gokuyum. Im generalizing on the basis of my own experiences.

 

you and me both know the majority of the gypsies are what they are. and that is a fact no matter how tolerant and loving person you are.

 

If somebody is good to you, treats you politely... do you ask what their personal background is?

 

In my opinion, a lot of good people are gypsies but since it´s not stamped on their head people assume they are not gypsies. They don´t fit the stereotypical view of a gypsy. I once met a gypsy man in a Türkü bar who was an amazing drummer. He went to the conservatorium for music, and he dreamed of taking his international music career a step further. A very nice, educated and good man. He also said that he would not mention to most Turkish people that he was a gypsy, because people would immediately make assumptions about him and would start to treat him badly.

 

Yes, I´ve seen the gypsies in the street who steal, and play tricks to haggle money out of people´s pockets. I´ve even seen gypsies that would wash themselves in the park´s grass-sprinklers. But I don´t know if the people who helped me so politely in the shop were Turkish, Kürdish, gypsies, Arabs or something else. So how can I make assumptions about gypsies if I just look at those people washing in the sprinklers? I can´t assume that all the good people I´ve met were 100% Turkish cause that´s statistically highly unlikely.

 

159.       lemon
1374 posts
 22 Apr 2010 Thu 02:47 pm

 

Quoting barba_mama

 

 

If somebody is good to you, treats you politely... do you ask what their personal background is?

 

In my opinion, a lot of good people are gypsies but since it´s not stamped on their head people assume they are not gypsies. They don´t fit the stereotypical view of a gypsy. I once met a gypsy man in a Türkü bar who was an amazing drummer. He went to the conservatorium for music, and he dreamed of taking his international music career a step further. A very nice, educated and good man. He also said that he would not mention to most Turkish people that he was a gypsy, because people would immediately make assumptions about him and would start to treat him badly.

 

Yes, I´ve seen the gypsies in the street who steal, and play tricks to haggle money out of people´s pockets. I´ve even seen gypsies that would wash themselves in the park´s grass-sprinklers. But I don´t know if the people who helped me so politely in the shop were Turkish, Kürdish, gypsies, Arabs or something else. So how can I make assumptions about gypsies if I just look at those people washing in the sprinklers? I can´t assume that all the good people I´ve met were 100% Turkish cause that´s statistically highly unlikely.

 

 

barba, help me to understand your viewpoint now.

 

Are you saying to me that my generalization about gypsies is not true? or are you saying that because of my statements I dont respect gypsies?

or Are you trying to convince me that on the basis of one drummer I should turn a blind eye on the rest 9 gypsies on the street, to the fact of their lifestyle?

 

good for him. but I cant change the minds of people (or my mind) who witnessed the culture of gypsies in reality. many people have to carry consequences of deeds done by their own relatives. you dont want it, but it happens.now, this doesnt mean I will show disrespect to him according to his ethnicity.

e.g. your father may have murdered someone, now you are a daughter of a murderer, that is a fact. and people will look at you through the prism of what your family done. you cant help it.

 

the same goes to germans, they bear and will bear the consequences of WWII.

 

jews will still be called Christ killers and hated.

 

btw, if someone does something good or bad to me I may not know their background, but I still can distinguish. you usually can recognise their ethnicity, not all the time, but you still do.

 

and then I try to make conversations, and I ask about their background. I ask if you are dutch or german. and then I ask what city you are from, I ask about your family. etc etc.

160.       gokuyum
5050 posts
 22 Apr 2010 Thu 03:11 pm

Lemon you sound worse than armegon and si++. At least they seem they don´t aprove insulting a nation. You must respect a nation but you are free not to respect a person.



Edited (4/22/2010) by gokuyum

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