Sardunya´ya Ağıt- Can Yucel

İkindiyin saat beşte
Baş gardiyan Rıza başta
Karalar bastı koğuşa
Ikindiyin saat beşte

Seyre durduk tantanayı
Tutuklayıp sardunyayı
Attılar dipkapalıya
İkindiyin saat beşte

Yataklık etmiş zaar
Suçu tevatür ve esrar
Elbet bir kızıllığı var
Ikindiyin saat beşte

Dirlik düzenlik kurtulur
Müdür koltuğa kurulur
Çiçek demire vurulur
İkindiyin saat beşte

Canların gözü yaşta
Aklı idamlık yoldaşta
Yeşil ölümle dalaşta
Sabahleyin saat beşte

=============

Requiem to the Gerenium

In the afternoon At five 

With the head warden Riza with a furious drive

Dark forces entered the hive 

In the afternoon At five 

As we started to watch the pantomime

They apprehended the geranium for its crime

And threw it into the deepest cell  for the first time 

In the afternoon At five 

It was harbouring  and deserved to be on blacklists

Its crimes are hearsays and weeds

Of course, it has to do with the communists

In the afternoon At five 

Peace is saved as well as harmony

The governor sits in his armchair comfortably

The flower is shackled detestably

In the afternoon At five

Can has a tear in his eye

His mind with his comrade about to die

Green squabbles with Death thereby

In the morning at five

Song by Yeni Turku

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAwcaoDXz2E Music: Selim Atakan

My try

and my try as expected:

at five in the afternoon
led by Riza the head warden
men in black uniform broke in the dorm
at five in the afternoon

we watched the commotion
they captured the geranium
and put  him in a cell in the back
at five in the afternoon

guess he was an accomplice
yet his crime is mystery and rumour
he surely has a red connection
at five in the afternoon

welfare and order are safe now
the warden can warm his chair
the geranium is in shackles
at five in the afternoon

Can has tears in his eyes
His minds is set on his comrade
waiting for the green death in the death row
at five in the morning

Is there a TC Poetry Translation competition going on I didn´t hear about?    - on this one my ´dix pointes´ go to TheHandsom - for cleverly managing to make the English translation rhyme like the original.

I´m not in the position to comment on the translation but I love the source text.

I have already explained elsewhere that I am making these translations to help a few people who are interested in Turkish poetry or poetry in general. You don´t have to vote for anything. I like different interpretations of songs similarly I like different translations. Rhyme may be so important in the English language, it is not very so for Turkish. We tend to consider rhyme an old fashioned technique. Just like painters are not required to make paintings resembling photographs, poets are not expected to write poems following strict rhyme patterns.

I did intend my comment about a poetry competition to be a joke. 

I don´t think rhyme is important in English poetry any more than it is in Turkish poetry but the use of rhyme in this particular poem seemed to give it a certain rhythm with every line ending with exactly the same sound.  Not Can Yucel´s usual style is it? - so presumably he wrote it like this deliberately and therefore I thought a rhyming translation was a good one.

Just my opinion - I´m afraid I don´t have a degree in English Literature.

I think you took LIR´s comment too seriously.  I understood her to be giving credit to theHandsom for cleverly managing to make the translation rhyme.  He obviously spent some time on it and some people do enjoy simply playing with words, so all credit to him.  Both translations are good for different reasons.  I wouldn´t say rhyme is SO important in the English language, any more than it is in any other language.  Different techniques are used in poetry, depending on the effect a poet wishes to produce, or the subject matter being explored.

IMO there´s a certain amount of snobbery, amongst some, in the Arts world.  My own opinion is, yes, it may be interesting to know what motivated the creator of a particular piece, but it´s also there to stir emotion/feelings/ideas in the audience.  It doesn´t matter how simplistic, complex, negative, positive etc. a response is, a response is a response and it´s a personal thing.  Words in a poem may be a trigger, likewise the rhythm (or lack of it) may also trigger an emotion. 

Lol . . . I remember visiting the Staats Gallery in Stuttgart and mistaking an umbrella in a brolly stand for a work of art .  It could have been worse . . . I might have been stood there for hours pondering.

I liked the subject matter of this poem and I´m reminded of one of my favourite genres in poetry . . . war poems.  This one was written during WWI, but I think it transcends time and nationality.

Another favourite poet of mine is Roger McGough (ex Scaffold member).  He loves playing with words.  The only one I know my heart is . . .

"To amuse emus on warm summer nights,

Kiwis do weewees from spectacular heights."

Rhyme is also a very important tool for literacy in children :

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/learning-read-rhyme-important.html

Of course this doesn´t mean to say rhyme is a childish technique.

Thanks, boys for both translations

What´s the saying? ´I don´t know much about poetry (art/music) but I do know what I like´! And I like this very moving poem.  [I do know who Siegfried Sassoon is btw ]

Thanks for your comments. These translations appear exclusively on Turkish Class and they are meant for notifying users of their existence. In most cases, there are no English translations. Advanced learners of Turkish could use them in their studies.

In the past, a few people suggested that I compile these and publish elsewhere. I told them that most of these poems are five minute translations and that I do not consider them valuable from an artistic point of view.

I feel the best way to contribute from an educational point of view would be offering alternative translations. This is pretty much what I am doing.

Ha ha.. It seems like..

Thanks for the ´dix pointes´ but what are ´dix pointes´ exactly?

Top marks of course!  Just my little reference to Eurovision!  [looks like we can´t look forward to any Turkish-to-French translations from you then?   ]

Who says that?

I am actually waiting for someone to translate a Turkish poem into French so that I CAN help  a few people, who are interested in Turkish poetry or poetry in general,   by translating "the same poem".

I think that is the best way to contribute to  their advanced Turkish. I am intending to take the level of their advanced Turkish to a "double advanced Turkish level". I will be doing this contribution by offering alternative translations.

Of course, they will all be from an educational point of view..

I think I have to confess, I am making all those translations because I don´t like the way they are translated. I couldn´t have been more frank with this explanation. I know there are people who like them, I am just one who doesn´t. All the other stuff you came up with in your message are the products of your imagination. 

As a big poetry lover (and one of the "few who are interested in Turkish poetry or poetry in general"), I always appreciate alternative translations from languages I don´t understand. Translation can never displace the original, but reading and comparing several different translations, you can better understand poet´s idea, feel the spirit of the poem. Otherwise, if the point is to only get information of "what is about a certain poem", Google Translate would be perfect.

So, please calm down. Instead of debating, please, whatever your motives were, keep on translating. I personally wouldn´t mind if every try of translation would be followed with several more tries. Because people who are truly interested in poetry don´t have to vote, or declare one translation better than another – more translations just help them to get closer to original poem.

For other "few" poetry lovers, I´ve just added alternative translations (both Turkish and English) of my favorrite French poem here.

Ha ha

I have not asked of you like them or not really..  I would not  give a toss

And all other stuff is not from my imagination but from ´somebody´s posts´.. 

Well, you are doing a great job!

Dix pointes?  Deux pointes less than the maximum . . . douze pointes!!

Apologies in advance . . . cringe factor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n--JnAwirk 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irelande_Douze_Pointe

Thank you.   

Yes, I had every confidence in you . . . knowing that he was not a hairdresser .

Sassoon survived the war but many War poets didn´t.  Wlfred Owen was wounded and sent back to England to recuperate, before returning to France, where he was killed in action, aged 25.  I cannot begin to imagine what it must have been like to serve during that war, for all soldiers, whatever nationality . . . terrible conditions.

And, yes, the poetry is very moving. Another one that I like is:

DULCE ET DECORUM EST 

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, 
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, 
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs 
And towards our distant rest began to trudge. 
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots 
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; 
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots 
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Is everyone else seeing strange things on my last post?

Yes - very strange - how did you do that???  

 Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, 
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, 
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs 
And towards our distant rest began to trudge. 
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots 
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; 
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots 
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Cuvallarin dibinde iki buklum yasli dilenciler gibi
Bacaklarimiz carpik, cigerimiz dusmus oksurmekten,
sirtimizi donduk geldikce musibet dusman atesi
sonra ardımızdaki güruh başladı yürümeye ayaklarını sürterekten

yürüyordu uykusunda insanlar, çoğunun yitmişti postalları
yürüyordu yine de kan revan içinde, hepsi kör, topal hepsi
kaderine kahretmis, gürültüsünü duymaz ki kulağı
ardımıza düşmekten yorgun koca top gülleleri

....I was saving the douze pointes in case the poet himself rose from the grave and posted the definitive translation.

Quoting vineyards

Thanks Vineyards.

A quote from Wilfred Owen:

‘My subject is War, and the pity of War. The Poetry is in the pity.’

source   http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ww1lit/collections/owen  (biography here too)

I can´t think of the right words to describe why I think this genre of poetry is of most interest to me.  I suppose it´s the realism. It´s almost impossible to imagine the atrocities people (civilian and military) experience during wars and poems like this provide a glimpse.  I  feel a sense of guilt that I have never been affected, personally by such experiences and I thank God for that.  Reading the poems, reading the biographies . . . everything becomes so close to the heart and tears are inevitable. 

I´ve read poetry about love and I´ve experienced the elation and the heart break involved with that, yet although I can appreciate it, that genre doesn´t move me in quite the same way as the War genre. 

I wonder . . . How is it possible that something I´ve never experienced myself can move me so much?

It´s a gift . . . effortless for me .

(I´m reminded now of the time I ended up with a fit of the giggles when I once had a problem getting my tongue around the word ´effortlessly´.  For some reason I could not pronounce it! I had never had a problem before and never have since, but it did once cause me such a problem!  Another time ´fairly recently´ became ´fairy lecently´ and no matter how slowly I tried to repeat it, it came out the wrong way! . . . Oh . . . I´m digressing. That´s something else I find easy   )

But the damage is done.  You gave TheH the impression he is "top marks" material, so you can be the one to tell him he didn´t quite step up to the mark .

Naah

If Can Yucel rose from the grave, he would have said ´I am not one of the a few poetry lovers here´.  

It´s ok - he doesn´t speak French so I´ll tell him that ´dix´ is worth more than ´douze´

Who knows what Can Yücel would say. You know he was a bit unpredictable. Unlike you.

You really are behaving like a little child now...

You should just really stop it..

We know what happens in the end..dont we?

Just stop it and stop exercising where my patience ends!!

Are you really enjoying this? what is it with you guys?

Geezz

"guys" ?  I know vineyards is plural, but he´s only one person.  If "guys" is a reference to myself also, then you have misinterpreted a lot here.  Read my post (number 7) and show me where I have said anything unkind about you!

If you´re referring to the "Eurovision marking" posts then I´m sorry you have misunderstood.  I was teasing LIR for forgetting the top mark value.  The fact that you were the person she gave the points to is irrelevant, I would still have teased her and I still would have made the comments later. 

I may not like the way you incite (my opinion) people deliberately with your political essays and posts and I think you have a prediliction for all things sex related, but I´m not vindictive. You´re getting paranoid dear.

Of course, if I´m the one that´s misunderstood your post . . . oops .

(Oh . . . and now you´re down to huit pointes!)

I always did like to read the last page of a book first.  What happens in the end?

I always did like to read the last page of a book first.  What happens in the end?

I always did like to read the last page of a book first.  What happens in the end?

 I know I must be super patient with you.

And you are a mod here..right?

Peh!!!

 Yes but you don´t give a toss to any mod anyway.

Off...

Why would I give a toss to a mod like you  as long as I obey the rules??

You have already embarrassed yourself and I think  you want to go deeper..Fine by me.. Go on..

You two are serious about this? No joke?

What is the question?

Isn´t it clear enough?

Ok, then I should start from the beginning.

Poet follows the general rules of the Turkish Folk poem:

a) consisting of quatrains

b) Quatrains having the same rhyme sheme ( a-a-a-a, b-b-b-a, c-c-c-a, etc)

c) composed of verses of having the same metrical form (8 syllabels in each verse)

d) placing his name on the first verse of the last quatrain

But he changed the rule a bit and made it plural that "Canlar" here refers all the prisoners in the jail:

Canların gözü yaşta
Aklı idamlık yoldaşta

Canların gözü + aklı, both are plural (their eyes + minds)

You two translated it as singular and failed!!! 

Theh´s version:

Can has a tear in his eye

His mind with his comrade about to die

Yours:

Can has tears in his eyes
His minds is set on his comrade

I actually translated that line as : Can and the fellows have tears in their eyes. You have to make a comprimise here between content and style. Is the audience reading this poem with the same political motivation as the poet and his Turkish readers or would they choose style over content? Mine is of course not the best possible translation.

As you may know, Turkish language has only short wovels which form a steady meter. In English however, there are both long and short wovels resulting in more complicated rhyme patterns like iambic pentameter etc. This is quite similar with the MEFAULUN-FAILUN-FAILATUN´s of Aruz verse. It takes a an eminent poet to come up with a translation which is technically and stylisticly excellent. Can Yucel was one such translator. His translation of Sonnet 66 by Shakespeare meets all these requirements. He probably saw that Turkish people would not want to read English sonnets and he turned the famous sonnet into a form you could listen to while drinking raki at some meyhane.

tired with all these restful death i cry;
as to behold desert a beggar born,
and needy nothing trimmed in jollity,
and purest faith unhappily forsworn,
and gilled honour shamefully misplaced,
and maiden virtue rudely sturmpeted,
and right perfection wrongfully disgraced,
and strength by limping sway disabled,
and art made tongue-tied by authority,
and folly, doctor-like, controlling skill,
and simple truth miscalled simplicity,
and captive good attending captain ill;

tired with all these, from these would i be gone,
save that, to die, i leave my love alone.

vazgeçtim bu dünyadan tek ölüm paklar beni,
değmez bu yangın yeri, avuç açmaya değmez.
değil mi ki çiğnenmiş inancın en seçkini,
değil mi ki yoksullar mutluluktan habersiz,
değil mi ki ayaklar altında insan onuru,
o kızoğlan kız erdem dağlara kaldırılmış,
ezilmiş, hor görülmüş el emeği, göz nuru,
ödlekler geçmiş başa, derken mertlik bozulmuş,
değil mi ki korkudan dili bağlı sanatın,
değil mi ki çılgınlık sahip çıkmış düzene,
doğruya doğru derken eğriye çıkmış adın,
değil mi ki kötüler kadı olmuş yemen´ e
vazgeçtim bu dünyadan, dünyamdan geçtim ama,
seni yalnız komak var ya, o koyuyor adama.

...and you changed it after seeing Theh´s version? Why would we have to make a compromise here between content and style? Since the poet trickily used the tradition of placing the poet´s name on the first verse of the last quatrain, since it is as clear as crystal that there is metonymy in "Canların gözü yaşta"  (Can is not his name here, but a word which means friend), there is no need to make such a compromise, in my opinion. After all you are the translator and I respect your choices. 

No, I never read another translation before translating a poem. There may naturally be parts similarly rendered but then certain phrases must be translated in a certain way.

Presenting the pun in the first verse of the last quartet in English is not as easy as you think. You need to put a note explaining the tradition. You must also provide another note explaining the equivocal use of "Canlar".

Napoleon said, the shortest way is the highway. If we were to present such technically perfect, and elaborate translations, we would prefer to publish them in the book format. I personally don´t have that much knowledge about translation. With that poem, it was just a case of hopelessly trying to improve an amateur translation. For many people here, reading poetry must be an amateur endeavour. I know quite a few things about literature but my knowledge is never complete. My profession couldn´t be more distant from literature, I am designing electronic circuits for a living.

If you have any suggestions, we could use them for coming up with an improved version of that translation. 

I really dont think, it was a compromise  from the content.  But of course it is my own opinion. I think I have the right to say and claim  truthfully ´I  did not change´ my translation after seeing anybody´s version´

ps. Maybe you should try as well.. But I dont think it is good idea to rush and translate the same poem after another person´s translation..

There are many  untranslated, wonderful poems. So if you want to attempt translating poems, I would recommend find  ´different ones´

Ama, critisism is always welcome!!

Sorry for giving you the impression that I am simply re-translating whatever poem you post. Others may offer their "dix points" thinking there is a childish competition going on. All these and your relentless whining force me to make this frank explanation: our taste of poetry is more or less the same and I too value those poets and their work. As a matter of fact a few of our favourite poets must the same. Nevertheless, your translations really grate on my ears.  I try to rectify the situation by posting what I think "improved versions" of them. Did I have the time and energy, I would work at least a few weeks for each poem and post completely salvaged versions to honor those who wrote them and those wishing to read them for the first time.

Let me spell out something which must be quite natural to understand for everyone: to write, read, translate or to rate poetry, one must have a taste and knowledge of poetry. There are zillions of books stashed in the libraries, and there are billions living on Earth who complete their lives without ever reading a single poem. The same is true for all special or professional interests.

Ha ha

And a huge OHA!!

I have never seen  more ´arrogance with no substance´ in my entire life.

Dont you see how childish your envy and you jealousy look from outside?

It is very simple..I dont care what you are and what you think. I refuse to believe our taste is the same.. Because I want to believe reading those poems make people more mature  but the jealousy you are showing is telling us something about your maturity and your taste.. 

Your translations, specially about can yucel translations, in my view, is a slap on can yucel´s face.. Dont you see your ´rectified´ translations looks forced like some  pearls coming from a constipated person´s excrement.

dont you see that? dont you really see that?

Well you are JEALOUS!! (I have seen many jealous people in my entire life but never seen so obvious as you are.. That is the truth)

Of course you are,..

Check the dates and times of those translations..

Obviously you have never thought of translating those poems!!

Obviously ´you read´ them and then you translate and all those after translations look like a spoilt prat´s cries ´me me me; look at me!´

Just go and translate anything for yourself and for poetry-eachother-lovers instead of trying to show your jealousy and your arrogance without substance..

Our taste is actually not the same. If Yucel gave up on communism and adopted a different stance you would probably say good bye to your Yucel taste. I believe you have no affinity with poetry, you just follow those poets whose political views are similar to yours. In other words, you are living in the past. Rather than getting angry, think about this.

Again

A Huge Oha..

I think you have never ever understood what poetry is..

And you should stop this childish show of jealousy.. Try to make it NOT this obvious.

And please..

Go and piss on poetry somewhere else.. will you?

Do you mean jealousy in the sense: "how can you be jealous of someone whom you pity?"

Vineyards..

Stop it.. Really.. 

Just do whatever you like but please dont come and  piss on poetry where my humble translations are..

Please..

Say uncle.

I think this thread has degenerated enough for me not to feel guilty for posting this poem.  It´s a favourite in my class of 5 and 6 year olds:

PLEASE MRS BUTLER

Please Mrs Butler
This boy Derek Drew
Keeps copying my work, Miss.
What shall I do?

Go and sit in the hall, dear.
Go and sit in the sink.
Take your books on the roof, my lamb.
Do whatever you think.

Please Mrs Butler
This boy Derek Drew
Keeps taking my rubber, Miss.
What shall I do?

Keep it in your hand, dear.
Hide it up your vest.
Swallow it if you like, love.
Do what you think best.

Please Mrs Butler
This boy Derek Drew
Keeps calling me rude names, Miss.
What shall I do?

Lock yourself in the cupboard, dear.
Run away to sea.
Do whatever you can, my flower.
But don´t ask me!

Allan Ahlberg

Could Derek be thehandsom one.

It seems the jealousy and degeneration we have seen so far is not enough for ´some´ and we all yet to see more ..

DON´T... ASK... ME!