Women in Eastern Turkie cannot marry men they want.

According to a survey among 1401 women in eastern and souther-eastern Turkie by KAMER (Women association center) there are some interesting (or shocking) results:

• 43% is forced to marry before they are under 18, of those 74% are married according to the agreement between the families and 6.6% unwilingly forced to marry.

• 24.6% those who are married between 13-15 years of age

• 22.1% those who are married between 16-17 years of age

•   1.2% those who are married under 12

Source: here

This doesn´t actually shock me at all....

 I would have to agree with you.  It´s very sad but not really shocking anymore. 

What´s even sadder is that Alameda will jump in this thread in a moment and praise the benefits of arranged marriages. Apparently some people find these poor girls´ fate a blessing

What if she doesnt? 

OK. What kind of facts would you consider to be shocking for example?

Then I´ll be shocked and congratulate her on her change of mind!

Si++

"OK. What kind of facts would you consider to be shocking for example?"

Oh, it is shocking news, it´s just that it´s hard to be shocked every time you hear some obvious truths. It´s not the quality of the news but rather our level of getting accustomed to hearing it that´s changing. Still, we´re far from being indifferent

 You know it´s really annoying to have you attribute ideas and thoughts to me when you have absolutely no idea how I feel about things. Where did I EVER say I approved of forced marriages???????

Unfortunately si++ we just hear a lot about this.  It seems more like a sad reality than a shocking truth.  It just doesn´t seem to be getting better for many, many women in the world. 

I think the right question on that issue is; Why doesn´t BDP take the initiative for the solution of these kind of real problems in the region?

They might be so much focused on thier role, that is written outside of the Eur-Asia.

Didn´t you say that arranged marriages work better because the divorce rate is lower, if not non existent? And that olders generally know better what spouse is good for their children? And that marriages that people go into out of their own will are usually based on such an unworthy condition like love, which doesn´t make marriage work as opposed to family encouragement?

So there you have it - girls in arranged marriages (yes, some of them 12 but, as I recall your words, in some parts of the world girls mature faster so we shouldn´t judge). You may argue that forced and arranged are different, but they´re not. If you come from a culture where it is normal to have your parents decide for you, it is never your decision to agree to marry - it is imposed on you, and that´s, in my understanding, force.

I don´t need to put words into your mouth, you say things and I just remember them, especially that our views on life, freedom and independence differ so much and have clashed countless times on this site.

I am curious, oeince, is this seen as a big political issue in Turkey?   

Social matters are getting solved in political process in all countries. 

The representers of a region shall say some words on the solution of a common social problem.

In order their only work is to support terrorism we today still talk about these kind of social problems for the region.

Elisabeth why don´t you ask "What do the selectives of that region do for the solution of that problem?"

 Well, I guess I just wanted to know if it was something that was even on the political radar in Turkey.  Sorry, but it just seems to me that this problem is something that the entire country would be interested in solving. 

So what are regional officials doing?  What are national officials doing?  What are their mothers doing? 

Seriously, I am not trying to be glib...are there laws in Turkey that prohibit the marriage of minor children?  If so, why aren´t these parents arrested? 

Elisabeth, i understand what you are trying to imply.

Although, early marriages are prohibited by law in Turkey as long as the feudal structure of that region subsists, it is not easy to implement those rules there.

This is a common problem for the region which is digisted by the people living there. The goverment can not get in the houses and check who is married and who is not. Especially in that region. Guess how it should be provacated.

So the representers of that region shall help the goverment to implement social policies to eradicate that problem.

But unfortunately, their whole mission is to support terrorism.

I bet there are many ladies, even in this group, who would consider it a blessing only if you were able to arrange a marriage for them..

We must let people have their say before we can criticize them. I find Alameda to be a very considerate and intelligent person though I obviously don´t share her religious beliefs. She has so far been a valuable contributor. I could repeat the same words for Daydreamer except the beliefs part. I don´t care about what people believe in or what causes they defend as long as they respect each other.

Understanding a culture is a very difficult process. Consider this:

Cultural differences exist even in the same society, for example between generations. In Turkey, our parents lived in a patriarchal world where it was normal for a woman to seek and find happiness in her house. This has now changed dramatically. We see women getting more actively involved in daily life and holding on to their identities. My father still expects my mother to be obedient and servile. They are in their 70´s now. They have missed the train of change being born in the 30´s. There is no denying they set a very negative example but sometimes negative examples can help you avoid mistakes especially when the mistakes are obvious. I don´t hate my parents. On the contrary, I love them. They just believe in the different values of a fading time. They are doing quite well by their own right. Since there is no chance for them for an awakening. For those, young women in the East however, there may be a chance. When you remember 30 years ago, you do notice a tremendous change. This change will certainly continue and all the mistakes of the past will be eradicated eventually.

People can live in many different ways. Remember your mothers and fathers. Can you say you are any happier than them? Do you think there are more positive things in your life compared to theirs. You can instantly point out to the differences in your lives. We must ideally be living in a better world. Why are we more stressed then? Why is it not possible to relax and feel happy? We fight in the cyber world day in day out. Passive agression has become our second nature. Being dissatisfied with the real world, we have turned our attention to the Internet where we chat with people whom we don´t know maybe hoping that they could make a change in our dull lives...

P.S. All my ours and yours are literal. I am actually a very happy person. 

On the contrary, many of our female members are quite beautiful -at least the ones whom I have seen so far.

It is interesting to see your interpretation of my words....you did not get it at all.  Your understanding of my words leaves me speechless....but let me make an attempt to clarify....

NUMBER 1 I never ever have advocated for any type of forced marriage. 

NUMBER 2 I never ever have advocated for any type of forced marriage.

NUMBER 3 I never ever have advocated for any type of forced marriage.

NUMBER 4 I never ever have advocated for any type of forced marriage. 

NUMBER 5 I never ever have advocated for any type of forced marriage.

Now....is that clear??????  

Regarding arranged marriage.....given all the dating sites, it is obvious people feel they need some outside help. Today they use technology, yesterday they used their family members. The outcome is the same thing.

....Maybe you did not need any help...maybe your met your spouse came from a thunderbolt....however many people do need help.....they want to know something about the person they are going to get involved with. It depends on what one is looking for, if you want to find a spouse you want to have an idea of who the person is, what is their background?  If you have a family that you love and want to keep in your life, compatability should not be just the couple, but the family also should be considered, and I stand by that. Trying to be a couple on an island isn´t easy, people need help.....and one´s family is often a good place to get that assistance from.

How many women have had their bad boy experience....? ...and there are the men who have their sexpot...who is not really a good marriage choice. Too many have married for hormones, only to realize later it wasn´t a great decision. As with any important decision, a second opinion is not a bad idea.

The current method of finding a mate in "Western" cultures is to try things out, sort of on a hit or miss basis.....maybe marriage enters the picture, many times not. I know many women who have children, but aren´t ready to get married.  Some are even going to sperm banks to be inseminated, they don´t want to bother with having a husband. I can´t say I find that situation desirable. Yes, I am old fashioned in as much as I do think children do best in famlies that have parents.

As for love, I´m all for love...but there are different kinds of love. The love that is based on lust does not often last. Marriage based on compatibility and commitment to being married does.

 I´m sorry to have to tell you, your memory is very flawed, and you have no place to stand when it comes to talking about freedom and independence...you who are perfectly happy letting a 12 year old girl go through a body scanner which in effect does a strip search and is recorded.....and in addition to that you have taken what you misunderstood and extrapolated on it into a direction that I most definitely had no intention of going.

Now I wonder how you will twist my words this time?

 Ha ha ha ha.....and what diplomatic mission have you applied for?

Well then she will twist my words to make it look like I did.....

+10000

I think we all have been here for a long time and seen the arguments of Alameda..

Apart from supporting  all backwards and primitive behaviours and traditions which we spend almost life time fighting to change, she, even, at some stage, talked about Turkish people´s bad habbit of  not reading books as if it was a good thing!!!.

Of course, you are right.. Most of the arranged marriages impose a degree of force. My parents got married that way.. Arranged marriages were possibly a solution to a society living 100/200 years ago where all the buildings were built as men´s section and women´s section (haremlik-selamlik). It was the way of life and men and women did not mix much for one reason or another. It was the life when the rights of women was not a serious subject (and those braless, non shaving  women were yet to emerge ). Like in ´every society in any given time´, people think sticking to the old way of life they know has a merit or more moral than the new one -more modern one-. Of course, the main reason is the feeling of insecurity with the new way or with the new/ modern way, because it is unknown and not tested. And there is also a comfort of doing the things in the same way as  our parents did: Because their ideas have been tested, they give their consent and their consent gives us some moral support etc..

Basically, those people who try to stick to the existing values or way of life etc are called conservatives. The life and the changes in a society are determined by the fights between people who like to preserve what they have and the ones who want to change it (normally for better). I dont think I need to mention that ´conservatives have always been and will be the losers´.

When it comes to the people living in the east of Turkey and why they are like that, I think the answer will be a simple: The education.. There are serious arguments and proofs that that particular region was left uneducated on purpose.. We all know that when our republic was established we were almost the same.. West and the East were the same.. We also know that the state has been controlling the capital and education etc throughout our republic´s life..When you think why the west has 10.000$ GDP whereas the east has 1000$ GDP NOW in a strongly state controlled country, you will find your answers..

 Well if it isn´t Mr. H trying to get on the slither his way to the good side of DD by slandering me. My, what a brave strong man....I challenge both you and Daydreamer to show your proof...or shut the **** up! You make some very grand statements....I....support "all backwards and primitive behaviours and traditions"

Of course theH has siezed this opportunity to rant on about the oppressed "Eastern Turks"....and all..........

The topic is women cannot marry the men they want, 12, 13, 14 and 15 year old girls who are forced to marry men they did not chose, for god sakes they are still children.  Do those girls get an education?  I don´t think so, they have to performe their matramonial duties...  That means their education is no higher than 5th, 6th or 7th grade 8 if they are really lucky!

To keep the people ignorant is to better controle them, keep them ignorant you can make them beleive the world is flat.  Give them knowledge you give them power.  How do you expect those girls to kow better when they are deprived of the most basic elements in life...  A childhood and an education.

I think this is a rather narrow view of what being conservative is.  I consider myself somewhat conservative but that does not mean that I think its OK for 12 year olds to be forced to marry.  I hold some of my families traditions in very high regard.  They keep me connected to my past, to who I am.  Also, I don´t think that being liberal or modern is always the best path either.  In other words, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  I strive to hold on to traditions that can still be meaningful yet conform to modern life.  

In my heart I don´t think anyone on this site is condoning what happens to these girls.    

I have been in that site for a long time and I have never witnessed that alameda twists words. She explains herselve well and stands behind whatever she believes.

But, i have seen several times that DD and thehandsom twisted words. Also I have seen they are used to provake their answerers.  

However, even without my previous experiences, i can understand what alameda says clearly. She is against forced marriages but if the groon and bride are willing, she appreciates the parents efforts for the merriage. So do I. The families ideas are important both for Easterns or Westerns. I can´t understand why it is so hard to understand what she says.

But the most important issue on that correspondence is the style. It is ugly to propound some other ones so called ideas. It is double times uglier to insist on a slander if the answerer expresses that she doesn´t think that way.  So why do you insist on that? Why do you force alameda to join the discussion? May be she was not going to say anything on that topic. May be she would. But what makes you feel that you have the right to tell words about her opinions that you don´t actually know?

No DD, thehandsome no. You both get out of the line. You can´t sound off about anyone you want.

And finally, I think alameda is not old fashioned at all! She just have her own respectful way which i feel closer than her answerers ways.

I believe there is nothing wrong with the reaction thehandom has shown. All is in line with the saying:

People with little brains talk about other people.

Normal people talk about happenings.

Intelligent people talk about opinions.

...

Oeince, DD and H are right. Why? I had the same impression of her posts back in the past. I used to hate her for supporting backward customs and traditions. I remember my blood would boil, I suppose not only mine (I reckon GG, Lisa, Cat and many others).

Now, having stated and witnessed all above I call DD not provoke Alameda for "the world peace´s" sake.

I no longer support liberal solutions for family life. Somewhere, you Oeince stated that the West values a family. I strongly disagree with this. Family is not a value anymore, but an individual.

Phew, where do i start?

Alameda - first of all, sorry, if you took my remark as a personal attack. We´ve know each other for a long time, and I thought you got used to my wicked sense of humour. All being said, I still stand by my words, that the difference between arranged and forced is very thin, if there´s any at all, for reasons I stated in my earlier post. Also, let me repeat, I didn´t put these words into your mouth, anyone is free to check our post history where we debate about it.

Vineyards - thank you for the nice words. Worry not, I respect most members on this site regardless of whether we agree or not on most subjects. I´ve always valued Alameda´s input into debates, although 180 degrees different from my point of view, I can see where she´s coming from. Like I said, a bit of teasing on my behalf is a sign of familiarity.

Handsom - thank you for seeing my point. I would only slightly disagree about conservatives, conservatives in the west and in the east differ. While eastern conservatives may be ok with forced marriages and will find it the only system that works for their children, the conservatives in the west would be more about accepting, rather than choosing a spouse for their child. I have to say I am a bit conservative in some respects, not as far as moral conduct is concerned, but in terms of the system of justice or family values.

Elisabeth - just as I wrote to Handsom, there´s a difference between conservative and conservative. Vineyards remembers arranged marriages working one generation above him, I don´t remember it even at the level of my great grandmother on my mum´s side. Still, I don´t know anyone in my family, in my parents generation (they´re in their 50s) who would marry somebody the family didn´t accept. Oh, no! Sorry! My late paternal aunt (19 years older than my father, who´s 58 now) was 14 when a guy asked to marry her. She wasn´t interested but my grandma had a different opinion and would chase her through the village with a leather belt in her hands to change her mind She did, and my aunt married a terrible guy. Luckily for her, the bastard died quite soon. Sorry for the digression. Ahain, I´ll repeat myself, I´m with you on family values, with the restriction that family never comes before reason. If you marry and he is a geebag, divorce instead of being unhappy just for the sake of being married.

Oeince - I don´t think you´ve been following the debates attentively enough. I recommed post search, you´ll then see what we´re talking about.

Lemon - 100% with you on what the values are today. I´d say only few countries in the west put family first, and the definition of a family has changed a lot as well. It can be single-parent family, homosexual family, not always the 2+2 nuclear one. Serial monogamy is still in practice as well as many other types. Surely, it changes on an individual level, but generally I agree with you.

I knew you would finally come up with something that made sense !!! 

***

In my opinion the best, the most meaningful post on this thread is Elisabeth´s (as an answer given to Theh)

The main reason of all negative events, sins, crimes, terrorist activities
and the increase in criminal records in the world
is the abnormal rise of these uneducated people.
The world´s population is currently 5-6 billions.
Only 4-5% of this population is educated according to statistics.
Unfortunately, the majority of the world´s population is uneducated,
in other words, potential danger.
This is a socio-economic tragedy.

P.S.

Of course, university – college education is not enough.
“Education and culture”  do not mean “school” only.
Uneducated people does not mean “uneducated”.
People need family culture - education and community culture – education and
self-sufficient culture.

No. The only Seat I have these days happens to be a car. I suggest you read my message again. There might be an innuendo hidden somewhere.

to Si++ - you asked what shoked me, and I have to sadly admit that nothing really does any more. I´ve seen/heard about all types of tragedys these days so much so that they are not shocking at all. Whether it be floods/earthquakes etc ruining and killing thousands of people lives, whether a father/mother has set fire to their own house to kill themselves along with their children, or whether a child is kidnapped and raped before being killed, or whether it´s honor killings, or murders for no reason and so on.

Don´t get me wrong, it ALL horrifies me, but shocks me? Not one bit. There´s too much of it in today´s world to make it shocking any more. It happens so much you sadly get used to hearing it all.

 On the actual subject note: I agree the difference between arranged and forced marriages is very thin but we must not forget that that line still exists and thankfully too. Some women agree to arranged marriages - and I know one of them being very excited about the whole thing. To that note I do not disagree with arranged marriages if the participants agree to it, but if they do not, no-one should have the right to force someone to do something they do not wish to do when it will dramatically change their lives.

I also agree that all around the world people live their lives, dramatically different to what we live ours and in most (not all!) cases we should have to respect that (unless we count it as morally wrong). For example the chinese eat such different variety, some of which we would consider a health hazard in a kitchen (cockroach), or alot of (not all!) eastern countries the woman is considered to be the one to stay at home etc and the man at work, where as western countries, women show more independence. Or another example we all celebrate different days, like in India, they celebrate Holi festival and they go round covering themselves - and others! - in bright colors of powder!

I´m not saying I wish ALL the differences stuck around but like I said before these differences make our world very interesting and make learning about other cultures etc interesting too. For example, seeing everyone and yourself get splattered in different colors of powder is an experience I know that I would love because it is so different from my own (or tomato throwing in Spain! )- though I wouldn´t go as far as eating a cockroach in China 

I don´t want to get into philosophical part of it in depth but the definition of conservatism   in my post had  much more generic meaning:

I am sure some of us heard the concepts of "white crow" or "The Painted Bird"-the novel from  Kosinski. When you paint a crow white and leave it to its existing flock of crows, that white crow is exterminated or kicked out of the flock.

We are, in the end, animals and our biological purpose is to continue living/ to survive. 

I am sure you will agree that "people put some rules for themselves for living together and with that, try to guarantee its survival".

People generically tend to obey these rules as a whole bunch. But there are always some white crows. Some people objects these rules; they question them; they object the way they are.  

In animal kingdom, these naughty members which object the herds way, are eliminated or pushed away. 

That is almost the same for people as well..Contradictory people are kicked out.

But for people, because we are able to think, there is another factor which is important for survival: You have to adapt/change and be better!!!

Now coming to the word conservative. Conservatives are the people who try to keep these rules. But for what? Of course, for the better;for their feature;for their children; for themselves; in the end, for their own survival in their mind..

The herd, generically speaking, is always conservative in any given time and resist the changes. The existence of new ideas/new ways are always considered as the danger for the society for their survival. But on the other hand, the  survival depends on the change!!

So for the long term, the change is inevitable and it means the conservatives lose..There is nothing wrong in that..I think the important thing is to be aware of this cycle of changes..

Who gives a guarantee that education solves the problem? What happens to uneducated people? Are they bad? I just hate education to be treated like a god. There are millions of educated people. Are they all good?

I have read all the messages about this topic.  As always there is an inability to understand each other´s viewpoints, or deliberately twisting them to fit an argument.

It is a sad truth that underage marriages are enforced in many countries around the globe.  Contrary to what most of you may think, the parents are well aware of the dangers and the potential to make their daughters unhappy.  So are they without feelings for their daughters?

I believe not.  They will try to do their best for their children, as much as anyone else. To keep them safe, in a good home, and with the prospect of a decent life.  They fear the alternative--- if the daughter gets older she may run around with men, and disgrace the family, which could cost her life.  She may be less eligible and attract a less desirable husband.  And if she is doing the unthinkable and has sex before marriage, it is the parents who will be questioned on the day of judgement, according to the hadith: whoever raises two daughters ( islamically) well, will go to paradise.  Once they are married, the parents have done their duty.

 The change has to come from the most conservative of Imams, who will naturally be very reluctant to advise parents against an early marriage just because some Western educated people demand it.  The prophet´s wife, Aisha, according to some Hadith, was 9 years old when she got married and she loved him very much, growing into  most respected authority  on Islamic law.  It does not make him a paedophile, but it was a custom designed to protect vulnerable young orphans and strengthen bonds between families.  Nor was the marriage forced, but freely contracted.

Times have changed, and people forget that the Prophet was a special man whose personal integrity was impeccable.  No one can emulate what he has done, especially not in their private lives. It is Islamic education peple need, and would accept more easily, not Western one. 

Islam and Western law have to work hand in hand to make it clear to parents that the risks of an early, forced marriage, outweigh the benefits.  You are right, if the government was more popular, then it could influence public opinion.  At the moment, you can only work through that most despised of mediums: Religion!

And finally, i do take offence that i, as a student of this site,  would benefit of an arranged marriage because i could not find a man otherwise. 

None of my friends has ever complained about my looks, and as usual the problem is keeping Turkish men away, rather than attracting them, since they seem to find anything remotely female looking ´interesting´ .  I am learning Turkish because i have a man, not because i want one. 

+1

"School education" is not enough to turn the rising generation into men of knowledge. You know there is this famous Turkish saying: tahsil cehaleti alır, eşeklik baki kalır. What is worse is that "school education" has a side effect as "half educated people" who are arrogant and think they know everything that actually don´t know anything.  

I know what is being spoken here and what is worth to touch on in that thread is, the hideousness of adressing and insisting to adress some other one in a slanderer way. That style couses the loss of connection and conflict.

Hey!  I’ve read all these posts about marriage and these young girls – but no one has mentioned SEX!!!!!

What about teaching sex education to these young girls in school!  What does a 12 year old TURKISH girl know about sex – the actual consummation of a marriage?   Can you imagine the incredible fear and pain that those poor girls experience when on their first day as a wife –they have this much older man do strange things to them?  - and worse yet,  knowing that this experience will happen for the rest of their lives…! ( I wonder what he suicide rate is...)

Let me explain, I’m not talking porn flicks, I’m talking about the fundamental knowledge of the female body and the explanation of why they experience changes and what is “normal.’ It simply explains (medically) basic sex, sexual identity, relationships and intimacy.

Here in the US sexual education is core to overcoming the sometimes stupid, but mostly horrific thoughts young people have about their sexual growth. C’mon – everyone talks about it; everyone does it…even dogs n cats.  So let’s grow up. Let’s teach these girls that sex is OK and this is part if growing up.   If they can’t have the luxury of falling in love, desiring another human being or even enjoying the bliss of a romantic honeymoon  - let’s at least give them the decency to talk to them about what they are expected to do and how sex should feel.   Anything less is closer to rape than intimacy.

Doriss, I can appreciate your thougths on this but in many parts of the world where this is taking place, many young girls do not get even a basic education.  Sex is very much a taboo in these societies and viewed as a means of procreation not as something pleasurable (at least not for a woman). 

 Doriss.....Good suggestion, I agree, sex education is very very important....but why only for girls? Both males and females need to be educated.

That really is sad that some Turkish women cannot choose who to marry.

But maybe they will fall in love by coerce of a man, I´m not sure. If I was having to get married to a man I didn´t want to get married to, I would make the best out of the situation by acting like a slave for that´s what forced women are to men. What would you do if you were these women, being forced into marriage?

 Lemon, I think he means education in the more classic sense..

"....the word education is derived from educare (Latin) "bring up", which is related to educere "bring out", "bring forth what is within", "bring out potential" and ducere, "to lead"." 

 instead of....

"In its technical sense, education is the process by which society deliberately transmits its accumulated knowledge, skills and values from one generation to another."

....although where would we be without that transmission of knowledge? How long would it take us to figure out how to use simple tools?

....although in most cases, the latter I would call training rather than education.

If it´s the latter, I agree with you 100%, I have met too many well educated fools. They are rather like dogs that have been educated to hunt for their masters.

Then....one will get educated, like it or not, by just living....

 Ahhh....the H....are you always running to that other field where the grass is greener?  Do you ever look at the beautiful roses in your own garden?  What is new is not always good....think DDT, asbestos, Frankenfish, terminator seeds....what is new, and unknown, needs to be examined for safety and effectiveness, before being adopted.

Given there are at least 100,000 years of modern homo sapien, it has taken us a long time to slowly learn and adapt new technologies. I shudder to think of the invention of the atom bomb....so quick to use the new technology....I cringe at the use of depleted uranium....agent orange....artificial hormons injected into our food supplies....

Sometimes going slow is not such a bad idea. Humans have a sad tendency to throw out the baby with the wash water.

Maybe there was something useful in those traditions....I would rather examine them than throw them out.

Cool down buddy. Give me a break. I already have enough problems zigzagging in my "against seat" on the thin ice of the limbo called Turkish Class. 

You think criminals and terrorists are all uneducated people??  

For the attention of Lemon, Scalpel, Alameda and Adam25:

Doris - do you think anyone who pimps their 12-year-old daughter to a 40-year-old paedophile cares about how the girls feel about sex? Barkindo explained the cause very well - the family would rather get rid of the girl than risk her developing an opinion on their own, which might result in her having sex against the barbaric laws, and end up dead. Of course that doesn´t justify the parents, they just do what they have been taught to do by their parents. I suppose some might call it tradition, especially that it is rooted in their simple belief in their prophet, who by today´s definition, would be considered paedophile.

Busyb - yeah, it´s really entertaining to observe women being humiliated, forced to be slaves and deprived of human rights. What an interesting difference!

Yilgun - you couldn´t be more wrong. Education doesn´t give you compassion or emphaty, it gives you knowledge only. I can´t speak about all kinds of crimes, but according to Wikipedia, murder rates are actually going down, not up in most countries...it´s the accessibility to news that actually make you think things are worse.

Barkindo - I couldn´t agree more about whose responsibility it is to introduce change. I´d add politicians there as well. Some illogical opinions go that this is the matter that should be tackled with by the politicians from that region. How, I ask? How can you expect somebody who impersonates all the backwardness to promote a lifestyle where he no longer is the king of the jungle? Do you think progressive eastern politicians are actually elected there? By conservative communities? It´s the progressive politicians from the west who should show the east what they do is barbaric.

Alameda - do go back on your post, you can do it, can´t you? Then you´ll find your words promoting what I call backwardness. No reason to be rude and tell people who are right to, as you put it, "shut the ***** up" - just remember all our discussiona about burkas, women´s obedience to men in Islam, arranged marriages being better than "romantic" ones, logic between men having the right to have more than one wife, but not vice versa - all of these ideas, girls growing up faster in other parts of the world, which makes it not hideous for men to have sex with them, so widely discussed by us on this site are backwards to me. Backwards in my understanding of the world - there are derogatory to women. Unless you changed your mind and agree with me, this is the opinion I´ll continue to have. If, to you these ideas do not seem backwards, but modern or right - it´s your opinion and you´re entitled to think so, just like I´m entitled to think my way. I don´t understand your anger, it´s you who stated these things over the years, not me. The archive proves it.

 Awww don´t get upset. I wasn´t upset about what you said, it was very subtle though...you have a way like that which, I admire. I do the same thing, or try to, and am too often misunderstood.

 Maybe you should pay more attention to what you read, let me make it clearer for you:

On the actual subject note: I agree the difference between arranged and forced marriages is very thin but we must not forget that that line still exists and thankfully too. Some women agree to arranged marriages - and I know one of them being very excited about the whole thing. To that note I do not disagree with arranged marriages if the participants agree to it, but if they do not, no-one should have the right to force someone to do something they do not wish to do when it will dramatically change their lives.

I´m not saying I wish ALL the differences stuck around but like I said before these differences make our world very interesting and make learning about other cultures etc interesting too. For example, seeing everyone and yourself get splattered in different colors of powder is an experience I know that I would love because it is so different from my own (or tomato throwing in Spain! )- though I wouldn´t go as far as eating a cockroach in China 

 see again you are doing it....here is a quote of what I wrote:

"I challenge both you and Daydreamer to show your proof...or shut the **** up! "

.......you don´t seem to understand....saying what you think I said is not proof.

You come here with your chauvinistic "Western" wiser than thou, more civilized than thou attitude putting down traditions you don´t understand or want to understand, (although nobody is subjecting you to those traditions) like as if your culture is superior.....

I have stated many many times that arranged marriage is NOT forced marriage....but you don´t seem to be capable of understanding that???? I don´t understand it.......how can you think they are the same thing. I never said anyone should be forced to marry, but rather that there are advantages to having help.

Regarding the maturity of boys and girls...it´s a simple fact girls mature faster...go study some science...they are sexually mature younger than boys. You do understand what that means....? It´s a fact....and it´s a fact that they often do have sex...sanctioned or not...it seems quite wide spread in Western countries. I guess you would have to take a survey to see how hideous those girls felt it was. I doesn´t appear they were all raped, which is criminal as well as hideous.

You have thrown everything but the kitchen sink in here....I really don´t have time or energy to discuss them all at this time. However I will not sit by and let you slander me by saying I have said things I have not said. It is rather your misunderstanding of what I have said.

As for my anger....it´s not anger....it´s frustration ....you know abut that?

It´s interesting to see that you don´t read my post but still reply to them. A few posts above yours I put the following sentence:

Number 1 You may argue that forced and arranged are different, but they´re not

Number 2 You may argue that forced and arranged are different, but they´re not

Number 3 You may argue that forced and arranged are different, but they´re not

Number 4 You may argue that forced and arranged are different, but they´re not

Number 5 You may argue that forced and arranged are different, but they´re not

Hey! That´s fun - I mean, a tad childish but fun

I´ll capitalise it, although I am not shouting. I´m just out of ideas how to put it across to be understood:

IF YOU WERE BROUGHT UP IN A SOCIETY THAT BELIEVES ARRANGED MARRIAGES ARE A NORM, YOU WILL NEVER HAVE A FREE CHOICE - EVEN IF YOUR FAMILY DOESN´T FORCE TO MARRY BY PUTTING A GUN TO YOUR HEAD, YOU FEEL SOCIAL OBLIGATION TO FOLLOW WHAT YOUR FAMILY CHOOSES FOR YOU. ALSO, YOU KNOW IF YOU DISAGREE, YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ANYTHING BETTER TO LOOK FORWARD TO.

offf - I hope that was clear!

So, basically I got this right the first time and you suddenly got all shouty and rude. I don´t get it!

Correct me if I´m wrong, but you do claim that families know better and arrangement works better than a decision based on hormones, right? - since in the evil west it´s hit or miss, then, obviously, in the fair east it works better. Or am I missing something here?

I never claimed to be an expert on independence or freedom. What i believe in is choice - you don´t want a scan, you don´t fly. You don´t want to marry - your family does not think you´re a rebel, and you´re able to live your life alone, support yourself, get a partner or a test-tube baby. Just because you are the one that makes choices.

How did I twist your words this time?

Busyb - ok, so playing with colourful dust is ok, but forcing people to marry isn´t? i can go with that

 Dear Daydreamer,

I have a life I have to attend to now, but I still contend that arranged and forced are not the same.....and I don´t have an idea how many times I have to repeat I am against any forced marriage for you to actually understand that. What can I do, I say white, you see black?

I did not say hormones should not enter into a marriage decision. If someone is not attractive to you, there is no hope for a good marriage, however it is not the only criteria.

Please note, you had to put the qualifier IF into your definition....which changes things....in that case it is not arranged...it is forced.  If one can decline the arrangement, it is not forced. IOW an arrangement can either be accepted or declined.

I suggest you read the actual definition of arranged marriage... I accept the Wikipedia definition of issue, instead of yours.

I think I complately misunderstood vineyard´s words.

I am sorry vineyards

Dont overestimate yourselves girls !

Turkish ladies knew all about it, very long before Mayflower ))))))))))

You are sorry you could not see the so called innuandoes in his post?

Or sorry that you did not see the rudeness in those words..

Or sorry that you did not see the rudeness was not towards you or alamada but to ´another´ person?

The third one is the most closer.

I thought, he was defending your words in the first time and tells me not to mass with people. But I understood that was wrong when i read it the second time.

He ment, Whatever thehandsom says is not unexpected, because he used to mass with people. And I am for that idea as well.

Thats why iI am sorry vineyards.

Well done..

The rudeness was so obvious in the first place.. Considering that I did not even say anything to him or arguing with him and him coming out of blue  with an unstoppable rage and the desire for being rude can be considered as provocation..

But thanks to know that I am not the only person saying vineyards´s post was rude..

Rudeness is rudeness and it does not matter if you are a mod or not..

I said closer in order i wasn´t for the " rude" part of your 3rd statement.

I  that rather consider that as deserve of a slanderer .

Since there was no slander at all and no slanderers, only things remain are the real hypocrats and the rudeness..

Indeed i would be hypocrat if I didint support a true statement.

Here are a few things I found for Turkish laws:

The legal age of majority is eighteen (18) years.

The legal age of consent for marriage is seventeen (17) years for male persons and fifteen (15) for female persons.

There is not precisely a legal age of consent for sexual activity.

Compared to Canadian law:

The legal age of majorety varies from one province to another from the age of 17 to 19, but the most part it is 18

The legal age of consent for mariage is 18 for both parties, if either party is younger than 18, the written authorisation from both parents is required.

The age of consent for sexual activity is 16 years . It was raised from 14 years on May , 2008.

For the last part a 16 year old girl can have sexual relations with a boy as long as this boy is less than 5 years older than her, if he is older than 5 years he is charged with statutory rape and the same is true for a boy.  There is also an exception for 12 to 13 year olds, the age diffrence must be less than 2 years older than him or herself.

This is the type of information that girls and boys need to know and if more adults were aware that prison terms can be given and are applied then maybe people would think twice before deciding to marry off their daughters at the tender age of 12.

Your hypocracy is coming from your statements such as ´this is a slander, he is calling her backwards, he is provoking here and there blah blah etc´ but then accepting the rudeness and provocation to somebody you dont like..

You live with that..

Anyway..It is not important.. I knew these things anyway.. No surprise for me

Uzatma yaa öff! Bıdı bıdı bıdı...

All those are written for you. Not for him. I just told him that he is zigzagging but he was not! I was wrong. So i deleted those, however you can still see what i wrote from quotes.

Not absolutely what you said.

That is another proof about your hypocracy.. Hurting.. is it not? As I said.. You are accepting it.. and you will have to live with it..

Not a bad thing though.. At least you know it.. Next time, you can prevent it.

I know why you don´t like soldiers. Sen askerde olsan çok dayak yerdin! (If you were a soldier you would be hitted a lot)

I was and am absolutely calm while writing all those but it seems i forget to add a smile I dont like you at all. Why dont you accept that. Go away. Go listen some smooth jazz as i do.

http://www.jazzradio.com/smoothjazz

On the contrary, I think I was a quite clever soldier and managed to get away without any hitting..  My thought about the army is much more political than emotional..

Adding a smile or two wont change the fact about you being a hypocrate.. But I did not know that you did not like me at all..wow  that is a revelation..

Anyway, just take your hypocracy, fold it up and put it in your pocket  and continue listening your jazz..

Hiç değişmeyeceksin değil mi?

(You will never change right?)

What an agony for your body to carry your soul and mind.

Alpha, dear, I trust that you know more about Turkish ladies and their virtues (or lack thereof) than I do...I stand corrected!  

Is this the last trick you have?

Anyway.. I am out of here..

The hypocracy and the rudeness can stay!!

Yeah. I just want you to understand that i don´t want to talk to you at all.

But thanks God you´re gone! Please don´t come back

Actually....here is what you said.....about me....

"I think we all have been here for a long time and seen the arguments of Alameda..

Apart from supporting  all backwards and primitive behaviours and traditions which we spend almost life time fighting to change, she, even, at some stage, talked about Turkish people´s bad habbit of  not reading books as if it was a good thing!!!."

What you have done is put up unsubstantiated statements that defame my character. While it is not technically not slander...but rather libel...you have a point. However the effect is the same.

The above statement from you may be your impression, but in fact, it is not true.

Wiki has some interesting material on this matter:

Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, broup, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant)

In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. 

A person who destroys another´s reputation may be referred to as a famacide, defamer, or slanderer. The Latin phrase famosus libellus means a libelous writing.

I am interested in idea exchange, in fact I greatly value it. If someone does not agree with me after thoughtful discussion, so be it. However when they insist I have said what I have not, I protest.

H and Oeince,

Speak on the topic please! Or deal your bazar at the bazar.

Thank you.

Dear Alameda,

I hate to get into this but the impression most of us had in the past from your posts was as stated in DD´s last posts. You claim you never said this or that or some people twist your words but somehow there are people who share DD´s opinion on your viewpoints on certain topics.

As for the difference between arranged and forced marriages again it differs from culture to culture. DD is right. If you grow up in those cultures you will with most certainty agree to "arranged marriages". Its obvious as the bright moon on the clear night sky. So, it can be categorised as forced marriages, even though nobody holds the gun against your forehead, but the local customs do a better job than the real gun.

My own personal opinion is that nobody can change the reality in those cultures. The mentality doesnt change over the night. In Eastern countries laws and regulations dont work. This will carry on and on many years unless a revolution maybe.

Look Alamada..

It is not the first time we are arguing here.. We argued many times about the subjects ranging from women´s rights in the Turkish society; economical rights of women to the results of surveys about Turkish people (one of them was saying that - Turks dont read much- etc)

Now we have some ideas as far as opinions are concerned: Some ideas are liberal, some of them are traditional, some of them are revolutionist, some are racists, some are backwards, some are crazy etc..

I have spent my serious amount time with political ideas. Many of my friends are like that.

When we talk about women´s rights, equality in genders, women as work force,  importance of economical independence for women, buying women like buying cows for marriage, forcing them to marry someone, arranged marriages etc we have always had clear ideas about which one is backwards which one is not.. 

We,Turks, have  some backwards traditions (forced/arranged marriages, honour killings, forcing or persuading very young girls to marry, traditions associated with the religions etc),  some primitive behaviours and ideas (being xenophobic , not liking reading, accepting ultra nationalism-racism- as normal) etc.. 

We call them "backwards"!!

I spent almost my life time fightings against these backwardness.. 

You have supported some of these traditions, we/ I call backwards.

Have you not?

Ah.. You can say that some of those traditions/behaviours are not backwards!!

That is fine. You have right to do so.

But "I" call them backwards!! I have right to do so..

Where is the libel in here?

ps..Lemon.. I was not trying to argue with anyone.. I was just trying to point at the rudeness of a mod. That was all..

Well I did a lot of research on this topic. These marriages where the girls are very young are outlawed in Turkey now. If they are doing such a thing, the Turkish government is against it. I noticed it said in rural places you might find this taking practice but it is against the law. Actually Turkish women are some of the most advanced as far as rights for women are concerned. They are allowed to vote even before France had allowed women to vote. Marriages that are chosen by the parents are looked down upon today. I have questions about that picture, because her hair is showing. And Turkish women usually don´t show any hair because of their Muslim faith. In reality its a very peaceful religion and so are the people. They are a some who practice bad things. But I am from America and we have some crazy people out here too. Trust me! lol! But I have a Turkish friend who lives close to that area and he is a very kind person... The Torah is the first 5 books of the bible and the Qur´an is very loving.. and I am Christian not Muslim. But I have done my research and still continuing as well.. Thanks, Elizabeth Ross   

If you live in a conservative community where sex is considered a taboo and chances for socializing are limited you are faced with the problem of not being able to find a spouse since there is no way to spend time with them or to understand their character and to make a choice of your own based on mutual experience.

This brings forth the need for some device to initiate socially approvable relations between persons. Matchmakers perform this function. They act as a bridge between potential spouses who would not have a chance to come together. They listen to the parents of the young people to learn about their expectations. They never miss a chance to meet the potential lovers and to learn about their dreams, plans for the future and expectations from life etc. After collecting this information, they begin paving the road for a marriage. For example, if the family are after a rich husband who could offer a comfortable life for their daughter and if for example the girl is undecided, they sometimes try to persuade both the family and the girl to consider a boy for his decency and good manners. They do this in weeks, months sometimes. When the family finally consents, these two meet and see for themselves whether there is chemistry between them. 

I would not recommend this system to anyone living in a society where it is possible for people to socialize with the other sex. Nevertheless, I can´t say arranged marriages are bad or they must be banned or looked down on. Complete with all the mechanisms that evolved with it, it is a solution provided by the inner dynamics of society and has stood against the test of time quite well. This happens in modern society too. If you are shy, a friend may help you. You may not be particularly shy but love might have struck you hard. Then again you may need the help of a friend to arrange some matters for you.

A typical mistake we make when thinking about the world is idealizing it. The world has some 195 countries. Of this, a mere 8 nations are qualified to be the members of the G8 Group. There are G20´s and tens of developing countries that trail behind them. There is also poverty in much of Asia, Africa and Latin America. Poverty still lingers on in countries like Turkey and Russia. 

In this world, the poor starve, the deprived is oppressed and the rich point their fingers at them. Don´t do this. Try to put yourself in their shoes whether as a parent or as a child. What could you change? Everyone will live their destiny, people´s destinies are created by other people both inside and outside.

Hey man. You sound like Captain America.

Thanks Lemon - that was my point exactly! I suppose Alameda prefers to trust dictionaries rather than observe how theory works in practice. Of course I am aware of the theoretical difference between a forced and arranged marriage! But what do you call marriages that the bride does not object to as she has no other option? She cannot meet her mate in any other way than through arranged marriage - not a system of dates, but marriage. Is that an arranged marriage? It is by dictionary definition, but do you feel like there´s free will in that? It is a forced marriage to me, forced because it´s the tradition that forces women to agree by giving them no other option.

In an ideal world, I don´t care if women look for husbands or lovers themselves, go to a matchmaker or ask their family to arrange that for them. But the world is not ideal. If arranged marriage is your ONLY choice, it is a forced marriage in the end. To have a choice you need other options. Is it so hard to understand it?

And I wonder if this really is slander or libel if I´m not the only one who found your posts promoting backwards ideas?

Yeah! that´s what I mean I was just trying to make this forum a little more cheerful when it comes to differences in the world. Someone did mention about differences in cultures so I thought it would be good to also mention the good differences in the world as well as the bad. That way, although we know that a lot of bad stuff happens in the world, we cannot forget the good. I read a book called "It is just you, not everything´s shit" by steve stack recently and I guess it´s rubbed off

Well.. I was pretty sure you would NOT comprehend the concept of ´fighting backwardness´.

That might be an alien concept for you as stranger as  the captain America for me (I never read it.. I still dont know him).. 

But I think you should stick to the topic rather than going personal..

Talk about the opinions not about other people..

Even if you still don´t know him, you will probably browse a few pages out of curiosity. The link between you and him is not about the flashy suit he is wearing, it is more about the ego.

As for the opinions and not people, I´ve just wrote a single sentence. Does that amount to talking about people? 

Will you just stop posting personal attacks??

You are a mod here for god´s sake!!

What is this? Why do you keep coming back with personal remarks where I dont even answer you!! where I dont even talk to you!!

Why why why? 

can someone explain?

What´s going on? What personal attacks are you talking about? Have you ever read your own messages? Do you know how many complaints I have received about you? You always do that. You stir trouble and play the victim afterwards. 

I have no personal problems with you. On the contrary, I can say I like you. You are a good, reliable net personality, a bit predictable but funny as hell, maybe on a par with Mr. Bean.

Go and start from the beginning of this thread!!!

Tell me where and when..

Tell me who complained.. 

Look at your posts, your quotes. 

Tell me which posts of mines were offensive!!

Tell me who told you and tell me when you told me that they were offensive!!

And stop!!! 

No one is asking your opinion about me god´s sake..

You have rules and you, yourself, are breaking them!!

Phew!! 

thehandsom, we come here to have fun. Why do you always begin conflicts? Do you have to annoy people in order you live an awful life? Get off our case! You spoil the enjoyment of the site. If you need help, just let us know, we can try our best to help you solve your inferiority complex.

Sorry oeince that is a cheap shot!

i am serious

maybe you are seriouse oeince, you do not like people getting personal with you and you turn around and do the same

This is what I meant in another thread about weak moderation. As early as the fourth post in this thread a poster who had not even made a contribution was goaded into retaliation with the inevitable result.

Yes thats true. Because we all have had enough of him. He, himself is a psychiatric case in my opinion.

There is a saying in Turkish - Bir deli kuyuya bir taş atmış, kırk akıllı çıkaramamış - that means, "an insane throws a stone to the shaft; forty intelligent people can not take it out" (better translations are welcomed.)

If that insane is always the same person, he turns to be chronic problematic case.

And I talk about that case.

Back to the topic...

Firstly, the problem here is that these are FORCED marriages. Arranged marriages are not an issue. Some people prefer this method, and it´s their own personal choice. The problem for the people mentioned in the article is that this is not a matter of choice.

Secondly, I am wondering what the percentages are outside of the East. There seems to be a focus on Eastern Turkey when it comes to these kind of issues, but as can be read the survey was held amongst Eastern Turkish people. How about the rest of Turkey? And poor Northern Turkey, nobody survey´s them... it seems like Turkey only has an East and a West, like it is one big line, without a top, a bottom, or a middle.

And how about allll the people who would never speak out in such a survey? I´m shocked by the results, not because of the percentages, but because those percentages were actually brave enough to say "no, I didn´t want to marry this guy, actually!"

The poster you mean, has been in bazillion arguments on the same subject before and referred to the experience. People who are here long enough to know it, understood it without problems As usual, some agreed, some didn´t. Business as usual Thank you for your input into the debate, though. We loved hearing your opinion on the subject of arranged/forced marriages. There´s this proverb about a pot calling the kettle black. It almost works here if it weren´t for the fact that the user you mention added to the discussion and you didn´t

Her. It´s a woman, not a man

All of us means many people in that case.

Indeed i am ready for a survey.

I am still waiting for the answers for this..

If you´ve been an attentive user of this site, as you claim, then you must be aware that there are no surveys about users here. You agree with some, you disagree with others - but everybody has the right to be here until they get rude and vulgar. That´s how our weird TC family has always been

little lesson in English:

"all of us" means the total sum of, everyone, the entire group

you meant to say "some of us" which is a portion or partial sum of the group

Anway, this is the subject for me now

thehandsom, we come here to have fun. Why do you always begin conflicts? Do you have to annoy people in order you live an awful life? Get off our case! You spoil the enjoyment of the site. If you need help, just let us know, we can try our best to help you solve your inferiority complex.

It wont make the argument right even ´all of us´ means ´all of us´..

There are rules and according to the rules everybody has right to express themselves..

9 out of 10 people CAN NOT SAY THAT ´I dont want THAT ONE person to speak´.

Anyway..

I dont  think it should be considered as a serious argument

oeince you are rather personal with your comments towards thehandsom.  I find that you are getting rude after stating that others along with TH were rude to you.  If you want people to stop being rude to you I think you should also stop.

See - that was personal and not really polite. TheH doesn´t start conflicts, he expresses his opinions that he´s entitled to.You disagree with him? Fine! Express your opinion. Attack the post, not the poster

"Get off our case?" - who´s WE?

He doesn´t "spoil the enjoyment of this site" - not for me and not for many other people. Why can´t you understand that there´s more than one point of view on this site?

As a matter of fact I think you´re going too far insinuating Theh has an inferiority complex - he just has an opinion that´s different from yours. Take it as a man!

And stop talking about yourself in plural, please.

Yes...

He has been rude. So as Vineyards despite the fact that he is a mod..

If I was rude and if I was told I was rude, I always go and apologize...

I think they should apologise..

What´s even sadder is that Alameda will jump in this thread in a moment and praise the benefits of arranged marriages. Apparently some people find these poor girls´ fate a blessing

 Note the fouth message in this thread....you brought me into it with an insulting remark. I had not been in the thread and had no interest in getting involved in it, until you brought me in.

And again, it´s your opinion which if you seem to think if you repeat enough it will be true....it´s NOT!

Let us know when you are brave enogh to accept that you need help.

But try not to begin conflicts until that day.

  I´ve never seen that happen.....

please oeince in that case have the same consideration and do not start conflicts either or at least stop throwing fuel to the flames!

maybe you should ask for help also, like I said it´s a two way street, you might get hit by a bus if you do not look both ways!

Hm... I think it is interesting how this thread got way of topic AGAIN. My attempt to get it back on track failed The insults fly back and forward when "we" talk about the East of Turkey, some pointing towards it´s backwardness, others supporting the East. In the end all of the people involved in the debate make it not about the issue, but about the people writing in the thread, and get very "backward" in their personal attacks. If only the people of Eastern Turkey could read this thread, and think "oh well, at least we are not so backward that we start insulting people that we don´t even know in real life."

And you made sure this poster was going to be involved in a bazillion and one arguments.   Of course forced marriages should not be allowed, especially with very young girls involved but it is not only a Turkish problem. It happens in many countries including Britain. I have never been to eastern Turkey so I don´t know enough about the situation there.

Fine, I shall repeat no more. Instead, I went through the trouble and collected a few of your posts in the past. All from your archive - check it if you please. You can clearly see, it is NOT my opinion that you advocate arranged marriages - it is your own words

Raindrops:

so most of pre-arranged marriages are happy?

Alameda:It does seem to be that way. The actual state of marriage is held in high esteem.  Rather than looking to "fall in love" and maybe get married, the process is to find a compatable mate and work on being loveable......or working to inspire love in one´s mate.

Alameda: Doesn´t it occour to you the compatability of the whole group is an issue?  You paint such a dreary picture.  Just how many arranged marriages are you familiar with? In these type societies the health of the whole family unit is of primary importance.

Alameda: I don´t know how many "arranged marriages" you have observed at close range, but from my observation, most actually work out pretty well.

Alameda: In many cultures marriageable youth do not date, thus the opportunities to "fall in love" are minimized.  That is not really such a bad idea.

Alameda: Well the fact is most arranged marriages work out quite well. Given the state of marriage in the West, I really don´t think you have anything to talk about. You really don´t understand the process, so you think it´s horrible. The fact of the matter the West is actually starting to change and we now see a proliferation of match making services and sites.

AEnigma to Alameda: "You now write three paragraphs about having a soulmate and being loved and needing a mate. However, the last time we discussed marriage you were saying that you should not marry for love, but for family compatibility and having shared culture and interests - in fact, advocating arranged marriages! "

Alameda: In Western cultures, marriages are not particularly successful. Add to that mixture the children of failed marriages and the whole thing looks even bleaker. .

Alameda: The idea of marriage centered on only a couple in "love" is not really the best foundation on which to build a marriage. Traditional marriages have been ones where one expects to become in love after marriage, not before.

If DD didn´t insult Alameda and her ecury thehandsom didnt insisted on that insult, we wouldnt have to say those words.

Why do you all go mad when somebody answers you in the way you deserve?

I and many people in that site like me don´t attack people. Always you do! Although you feed with coflicts, you can´t attack anyone you want! And if you do, get ready to the answers to that attack!

That seems to be true dear lemon....however it seems your opinion has changed.

You know groups can be manipulated into thinking things if they are told to think a certain way. If you tell a lie enough, people believe it´s true. When DD and H say I have said such and such...it creates the idea I have....when I have not. I think DD actually thinks I do, the H...who knows? It is subtle, but it works, knowing about such techniques helps.

The fact of the matter is I don´t support anybody being forced into marriage. However, there are advantages to having help with these things....as long as the ultimate participants agree.

I know there are situations where there is force by coercion....and that is a powerful force...which is, as you say, forced. Of course I don´t condone such things....and I have NEVER said I do. IF someone misunderstood what I said, I´m sorry, but there also have to be some responsibilty for actually carefully reading things before making such statements.

As for the East, patience...and perserverance.....

have you not really? Please read my post No 111 - it´s all your quotes. Trying hard as I might, I couldn´t see you NOT praising the benefits of arranged marriages.

So, was it me insulting you by suggesting you think arranged is better than not-arranged? Really? Or did i just tell the truth, basing on our previous discussions?

I have the impression that you think these poor girls in arranged marriages are happy. Just because the marriages work so well in your opinion. Isn´t that what you wrote? So, how come it is suddenly me who distorts the truth?

Why dont you go and read all the posts in this thread..

Yes...Oince was rude and so as Vineyards..

Do you not see them?

And I am still not answering them..

But there is always a limit to everybody´s patience as we all know..

You are again lier as always. You don´t answer? You were the one who just writes and writes and writes and writes 3 pages of answers yesterday night. And I was the one who said, shut up, go away, i dont want to talk to you, stop etc.

I won´t be quite. Come with all your enemies. Nothing gets away with you!

 Let me refresh you on what was being discussed...that you claim I encourage...

"Women in Eastern Turkie cannot marry men they want.

According to a survey among 1401 women in eastern and souther-eastern Turkie by KAMER (Women association center) there are some interesting (or shocking) results:
43% is forced to marry before they are under 18, of those 74% are married according to the agreement between the families and 6.6% unwilingly forced to marry.
24.6% those who are married between 13-15 years of age
22.1% those who are married between 16-17 years of age
1.2% those who are married under 12"

Where have I ever said I approve of forced marriage under any conditions, and particularly these?

While I may approve of arranged marriage, of course if done well, never have I said I approve of forced or coerced marriage......and I still challenge you to reveal just how many arranged marriages do you really have any real life experience with?

Where have I said you approve of forced marriages?

I said you´d come to advocate ARRANGED MARRIAGES.

Although, I do admit, and stick by it, I made it clear that in many cases even if the marriages are consensual, it´s hard to consider them a marriage of choice, as the girls have no other option (and you basically agree saying that in some cultures people don´t date).

So, I think I proved my point that you think arranged marriages are wonderful - you agree with that, don´t you?

Now we can debate if ARRANGED may be considered FORCED as it´s the only option

I will never be quite agains injustice!

Stop it..

Show me you .......

Show me where I lied..

I am not answering your insults with insults... If I did, you would be running around like headless chicken..!!!

Just stop it!!!

Stop being rude!!

But of course where mod gets rude, may be it is understandable where you get your courage to be rude..

Just stop it!!!

what injustice oeince? for crying out loud this is a discution about young girls beign married off to men old enough to be their father. 

You are the one on the soap box screaming that you are being attacked as soon as someone expresses their opinion or their thoughs! Come to realiose this, not everyone will agrea with you sweety and sometime you are the one that will be wrong, so ease up and accept the opinions of others and maybe they will accept yours.

oh by the way, do you know what happenned to the boy who cried wolf?  Well cried cried wolf so many times that when a wolf truelly came no one listened to his cries and he was eaten by the wolf. 

Keep screaming that people are rude and mean to you and when it will truelly happen no one will beleive you.

Liar! You answer 6500 times and don´t answer now? Didn´t you say you didin´t answer me and vineyrds? But there are about 15 posts from you about me and vineyards? Who do you deceive?

Just bring it on!

Now, I need a shrink!!!

I said show me where I was insulting you and replying your insults with insults..

I really think you should stop being rude!!

You are losing it, again...

oeince calm down or you are going to have an anurism

Look liar,

You cant attack people and than try to look like angel! Most people knows that you are the devil!

Anyone who reads your posts just in that thread, not 6500 others easily sees where you insulted me!

We won´t discuss it now with your way!

You are the liar and that is all! Anyone who is fair can see that easily.

As I told you. Not you three, even the world would defence the attacker, i will go on to say the right thing!

now like I told you multiple times please calm down

Guys, I have a suggestion - please start a new thread and continue your slagging match there.

I think Alameda might have missed my reply to her last post because of all this testosterone and unfounded aggression

 You know Daydreamer...pulling posts out of context really is not that honest a strategy. Why didn´t you include the thread names so things can be read in context?

Anyway.....nobody is asking you or anyone here to be in an arranged marriage. I admit, some are tragic, and not all work, but I have seen hundreds of them....and most have worked very well. I have also seen hundreds of "Western" marriages, most of which failed only to lead to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th...and on marriages...with traumatized children scattered all over the place.

I´ve seen hundreds of lonely old people abandoned old people....whose children have gone off and abandoned their parents.....it breaks your heart. I´ve seen many an old bachelors and bachelorette (aka) spinsters....with nobody to care for them.

I speak from experience, from what I have seen in the flesh, not some hypothetical analysis.

You are doing the best thing by not answering the insults. In fact, the only thing that seems to be wrong is the fact that you have "STILL" been posting the exact same message over and over. That´s too much reaction over a single sentence. I am saying this to invite you to be consistent with what you have just said: "I have fought against backward things all my life." This is about time you take one step forward.

 Daydreamer, at least we are getting someplace closer to an understanding....

Let me tell you about some samples....Let´s say a boy and girl are going to the same school, or they have mutual friends, they have been in many groups with those persons. They have had opportunities to talk and see each other, but not alone. Maybe they tell an aunt, or she, (a matchmaker) notices the sparks....the aunt or matchmaker then makes inquires about that person.

Information is gathered an analyzed, and discussed. If it seems right a family member goes to the girls family and makes a suggestion. It is either rejected or accepted. If it´s accepted an engagement is made and the couple date, but hey are not alone, at least not for long.

If after a suitable time they decide they in fact do like each other, the marriage goes through. If not, it is terminated.

I know of one couple where the wife continued going to school and got her Phd, while she was supported by her husband. She had a child that was taken care of by family when she was in school. That was part of the marriage agreement the families agreed to.

When you are in the flames of passionate love rational thinking goes out the door. The objective in arranging marriage is to get things at the spark level, rather than when there is an all consuming raging fire.

I gave the source, Alameda.

If you don´t know how to do it -

http://www.turkishclass.com/userMessages_alameda_-1

then press Ctrl F and type in arranged

that´s how I came about these quotes. It´s not like I´m hiding the context. It would be pointless because all the quotes state what you stated a minute ago - you like the idea of arranged marriages.

How is that insulting that I said so?

Let me be Handsomish and for the first time say I think I deserve an apology for being called a manipulator and allegedly insulting you. None of these happened. It´s as plain as the nose on my face.

I have said numerous times that it is not the idea of arranged marriages that I dislike, but how it works in practice.

It is not my objection that sometimes people decide to seek help to find a spouse - by no means is it! I actually think it´s better to ask family for help than a stranger or a computer program (not to mention a guru in a land far far away). I have no problem with that. I am not really a romantic person myself. I don´t do crazy stuff for love. I certainly wouldn´t marry anyone because of hormones - I need time to get to know the person and develop friendship first. I´m not convinced marriages of people who meet in April and marry in May would work for me. I like sniffing around a bit before

The only thing that makes me cringe about arranged marriages is when they are THE ONLY option for a girl or a boy to find a spouse. This goes against everything I believe in. And although neither party disagrees to this marriage, I consider it not to be an arranged marriage, but a forced one - not forced by the parents but by tradition. Of course, if people treat it as duty, the chances are in the long run most of them will accept their fate and even grow to love their spouse. What about the ones who won´t?

I can believe that these marriages last longer, but I will never believe that everybody is happy in them. Coming from a traditional background it might be hard for one (especially the woman) to stop a marriage if they´re unhappy. Do you see my point?

Yes I am stil lnot answering the insults..

So you know that there are insults.

As a mod, what did you do about them? Be consistent, come on!!..

I asked you  some questions..:

what you said was :

What´s going on? What personal attacks are you talking about? Have you ever read your own messages? Do you know how many complaints I have received about you? You always do that. You stir trouble and play the victim afterwards. 

I have no personal problems with you. On the contrary, I can say I like you. You are a good, reliable net personality, a bit predictable but funny as hell, maybe on a par with Mr. Bean.

 My questions were :

Go and start from the beginning of this thread!!!

Tell me where and when..

Tell me who complained.. 

Look at your posts, your quotes. 

Tell me which posts of mines were offensive!!

Tell me who told you and tell me when you told me that they were offensive!!

And stop!!! 

No one is asking your opinion about me god´s sake..

You have rules and you, yourself, are breaking them!!

Phew!! 

I am still waiting for your answers.. 

Do you have answers?

Will you start from the beginning of this thread and tell me

WHERE AND WHEN IN MY MESSAGES I WAS OFFENSIVE?

WHO COMPLAINED YOU?

WHEN DID YOU WARN ME (SO I COULD GO AND CORRECT)

And yes.. At first, as you said, your innuendos were aimed at me.. I was not arguing with you.. I did not say anything to you..And later on almost all posts from you by quoting my posts are considered as personal!!!(I can imagine what the out cry would be if I did the same!!!)

Why did you go want to personal?

Dont you think it was rude?

I think you should apologise for being rude..

And check all other posts and delete the rude ones!!

Anyway, but first please answer the questions.. (if you have any answers of course. If you dont, just say so)

I was reacting to what appeared to me to be the implication that I approved this hideous abuse of power, and violation of human rights....I do not....so it seems we are pretty much in agreement in the end. If I have hurt your feelings, please forgive me. It was not my intention.

"What´s even sadder is that Alameda will jump in this thread in a moment and praise the benefits of arranged marriages. Apparently some people find these poor girls´ fate a blessing "

I perceived your post in this context you see...........these poor girls....appears to be in reference to those in Si´s post:

43% is forced to marry before they are under 18, of those 74% are married according to the agreement between the families and 6.6% unwilingly forced to marry.
24.6% those who are married between 13-15 years of age
22.1% those who are married between 16-17 years of age
1.2% those who are married under 12

 Ah....happy...how many people are happy at all? Some have millions, are beautiful....but not happy...........that is a whole other discussion for later, Ok...I am tired now and have work to do.

OK I will not let you know who complained of you as this is private information. But since I see no problem personally, I once complained of you, I did this after talking to a few people who said negative things about you. You eventually apoligized and the matter was closed.

Perhaps I consider you a lost case from communication point of view. I might be applying you some sort of shock therapy with an intention to get you start questioning yourself. Ask yourself if it is really your burning desire to fight against bigotry and recession that makes you attack people. Could it be passive aggression?

Excuse me ?

Are you for real?

So , are you saying that in this thread no body complained to you? If there was a complain did you warn me so that I can go back and correct my insulting post?

But you, as a mod, decided to get personal and tried to be insulting to me without a reason?

Are you joking? or are you just drunk?

Let me answer with a famous phrase: Cogito ergo sum.

P.S. I am not drunk. 

Quoting thehandsom

I think this quote would be more appropriate: Dubito ergo cogito ergo sum

Well.. This beats me Vineyards..

I can go and rant about ´ah so you are not deleting any personal and insulting  posts as long as they are aimed at me and talk about hypocrisy´

I can go and call anybody a liar easily and you wont mind as a mod????

You did not answer my questions..

Because you dont have any answers.. do you?

So nobody complained in the begining of this thread to you..  I am right. are not I?

If there was a complaint  you did not warn me saying that ´if I could adjust this and that etc´. did you?

So with your innuendo post you went personal and rude without a reason to me.. did you not?

But anyway..

Since no posts of mine were offensive to anybody, why on earth as mod decided to attack personally?

How on earth we should believe you  as a mod, when you preach us ´dont go personal , stick to the topic etc ´ when you do these by yourself so blatantly? eh?

Well done!!!!

Seems on TC the most valid one is:

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum*

*disclaimer

The quote wasn´t aimed at anyone in particular and was supposed to be funny

I am not a mod of this forum (Turkey). You can consider me as a plain user with no means to change or stop anything. You should check out the mods who have authority here and direct your questions to them. 

Thehandsom, I know you want me to admit I have no answers to your questions. I actually tried to answer a few of them and stated reasons when I was unable or unwilling to.

I will not let you ask the questions and expect the answers and declare who the loser is. This is your vicious circle. It may be interesting the first time but it gradually becomes boring. 

I studied Latin in school and I believe I can still manage to say quite a few things. Who else studied Latin here and have you ever had a chance to actually use it apart from showing off. (I am no exception).

Never knew we had a user named isola, quite a coincidence when I am busy working on an isolation barrier.

I had a compulsory, two-semestre course in Latin on my first year the the University. It was a horror! Repeating declensions and conjugations and still being unable to read Latin texts. It  being a dead language didn´t help much either.

I can´t use Latin to translate, I hardly remember any of the theory I learnt. I still recall a few sentences like Rosa pulchra est.

The quote I gave I know from The Handmaid´s Tale by M. Atwood. And I know a few famous quotes as well. Today, having Google, anyone can be an expert

Well

There is no vicious circle here.

They were direct, straight questions. No innuendos..

I did not attack anybody, I was not rude to anybody. When I first asked you why you re getting personal and being rude, your answer was like ´Have you ever read your own messages? Do you know how many complaints I have received about you? You always do that. You stir trouble and play the victim afterwards.´

But when I asked you whom when where I was stirring the trouble, which complaints etc, if there was one why did you not let me know etc.

YOU HAD NO ANSWERS!!!

You were trying  justify your rather rude comments  by saying that ´you stir truble´.. You were not telling the truth!!

And "your" rudeness is still there!! And THAT is not interesting at all..

Well, I believe you deserve to be declared a saint for all the good things you have done. Luckily, we have a Catholic School graduate with us. Maybe we can ask his view as to how eligible he thinks you are for the honor.

I dont think you should try to change the subject Vineyards..

If I started corresponding  with you like you did out of blue like:

Vineyards, "people with little brains talk about other people. Because somehow, you keep talking about me and  therefore you have little brains" you would have been crying out loud here..

So next time, control yourself a bit more..ok?

I knew you would come to this verdict. Now you can sleep with peace of mind. The circle is complete. 

It is interesting though you identify yourself with the person who always talks about other people. You might go for the other two options as well. How did you know what option applied to you?

Now, you are playing the sore loser..

Anyway, I am out of here..

FYI I am a SHE and my "upbringing" taught me tolerance, patience and acceptance.  It also taught me that everyone is intittle to their opinions and that I am in no way in a position to judge another.  I may not agree with what thehandsom thinks or says or with what others say or do but I try not to insult the person when I do not agree whith what he or she thinks.

Now for thehandsom to becom a saint it may take decades and cardinals will have to evaluate his life then he must be worshiped and have done a postumous miracle.  For thehandsom will have to perfome a second miracle postumously but if he dies for his religious beleifs he can then forgo the previouse steps and ascend strainght into sainthood.

So unless someone on this site want to end his life for his beleifs then it will take decades before he is a saint.

Anymore questions for the "Catholic School Graduate"?

by the way thehandsom(and many others) must be a saint sometime to put up with the attacks received from certain people on the site(that is my personal though on the situation)

Sorry for the mistake about the gender. I had not checked your profile. I was busy picturing him with a halo over his head.

That´s enough mud slinging for one thread.  I would hate to have to lock it because I think that the issue in the original post deserves our attention and respectful discussion.  

Thank you si++ for taking the time to post.  I apologize if it got off track.  

My fellow classmates, these women lives deserve a little more respect.  Your petty differences pale in comparison to what these women go through everyday.  Lets try to be a little bit more constructive.

 Is there any way we can help these women? Nothing will happen about just talking about it...Do these women want our help? Is this part of the modern Turkish culture?

Me too, me too! We hated it. I regret I didnt want it. All I remember was "tabula raza" My teacher (an old professor) would shout at us you all are "tabula rasa".

The question is good but useless. The change will always take its victims. Nobody can help these girls/women. Neither gov nor laws. Remember this is happening in a (often proudly stated) secular country.

Lets ask Turkish users (Oeince, Vineyards, S--, The H, Armegon, Scalpel, Alpha aksakal). So far, none of them came up with any solution (point by point, black on white). This is their country, they live there with those girls side by side. The country is theirs, its all up to them. They know and understand the whole issue.

We, outsiders can endlessly talk and dispute, but thats all we can do. The only contribution of ours is our opinions. We tell these men what we think. They surely take our inputs into their dear consideration.

Thank you.

Oeince,

Do not exaggerate. Nobody insulted Alameda. She was merely provoked. However, Alameda being provoked did swear at people she was discussing with. An apology is needed.

 I was curious about the variations of the age of consent and was amazed to find this....

The age of consent 

In the twelfth century Gratian, who was the influential founder of Canon law in medieval Europe, accepted age of puberty for marriage to be between 12 and 14 but acknowledged consent to be meaningful if the children were older than seven. There were authorities that said that consent could take place earlier. Marriage would then be valid as long as neither of the two parties annulled the marital agreement before reaching puberty, or if they had already consummated the marriage. It should be noted that Judges honored marriages based on mutual consent at ages younger than seven, in spite of what Gratian had said; there are recorded marriages of two and three year olds.

The American colonies followed the English tradition, and the law was more of a guide. For example, Mary Hathaway (Virginia, 1689) was only nine when she was married to William Williams. Sir Edward Coke (England, 17 century) made it clear that "the marriage of girls under twelve was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband´s estate was nine even though her husband be only four years old."

Reliable data for when people used to marry is very difficult to find. In England for example, the only reliable data on age at marriage in the early modern period comes from records which involved only those who left property after their death. Not only were the records relatively rare, but not all bothered to record the participants´ ages, and it seemed that the more complete the records are, the more likely they are to reveal young marriages. Additionally, twentieth and twenty-first centuries´ historians have sometimes shown reluctance to accept data regarding young ages of marriage, and would instead explain the data away as a misreading by a later copier of the records.

 Dear Lemon....I did not swear at anyone....I used **** which allowed people to fill in the * with whatever came to their minds.

I was insulted by both DD and theH. Being called a supporter of backwards, barbaric and primitive traditions I feel is an insult. It would be hard to think anyone would not feel such comments anything but insulting.

It was not nice the way alameda was forced to involve in this thread.

Saying "You said this and that in the past and now you are gonna come here and say the same things." is just a provocation.

There´s a difference between provocation and insult. How can stating the truth be an insult? That is beyond me!

Am I going to insult Alameda saying that the age of consent was already discussed in TC? And the fact that medieval Europe or America in 18th century allowed it, does not justify what happens in modern day? Remember the loud divorce of a 10-year-old in Yemen (although here are efforts to change it), do you believe girls of 9 are being married and have sex in many countries in the Gulf Zone?

I wanted to draw your attention to the fact that some of them maybe do not disagree. Should we then just ignore the phenomenon? Should we believe that if they agree it´s ok? i think there are laws in Europe making sex with an underage person a crime, even if the person consented. Of course, there are guys like Polanski that escape jurisdiction...

Why do I have the feeling that some TC users, especially those who like the Arab way, do not want to discuss ideas but keep shouting about being treated badly? Could it be because the ideas cannot be defended by any logically thinking person?

Still insisting that ´you are being insulted?´

We keep explaining to you

"There are some ideas

Some of those ideas I PERSONALLY CALL BACKWARDS!!!

AND YOU SUPPORT THOSE IDEAS WHICH I CALL BACKWARDS!!!!

I have right to call those ideas as ´backward´

You have right to call those ideas as ´not backwards´ "

There is no insult!! I am not going to stop calling them backwards because you support them. why do I need to?

And as far as **** are concerned, I think it is quite rude..

You have no idea, what people can say to you with the **** only.

I think it was unfair to name somebody who wasn´t in the thread at all. Getting personal is one thing, getting personal with somebody who isn´t even in the thread is an insult in my opinion. But you know what? I doesn´t really matter that much, does it? I think what matters WAYYYY more is the fact that CHILDREN are being forced to marry somebody. Why are we doing this backwards he said-she said thing here? It´s a disgrace.

Alameda,

Lets talk clear. We are not talking about medieval Europe nor Asia (including medieval middle east).

Shall I send you back to the initial post?

Alameda, why do you keep doing this? throwing the ball into the opposite corner. Why?

If you really have nothing to say about the topic (see the initial post), just stay away, pls.

What kind of age consent you are talking about? A consent from whom? From a girl (child), from parents, from law?

Be objective, Alameda, be objective, pls.

as I posted earlier:

Here are a few things I found for Turkish laws:

The legal age of majority is eighteen (18) years.

The legal age of consent for marriage is seventeen (17) years for male persons and fifteen (15) for female persons.

There is not precisely a legal age of consent for sexual activity.

Compared to Canadian law:

The legal age of majorety varies from one province to another from the age of 17 to 19, but the most part it is 18

The legal age of consent for mariage is 18 for both parties, if either party is younger than 18, the written authorisation from both parents is required.

The age of consent for sexual activity is 16 years . It was raised from 14 years on May , 2008.

For the last part a 16 year old girl can have sexual relations with a boy as long as this boy is less than 5 years older than her, if he is older than 5 years he is charged with statutory rape and the same is true for a boy.  There is also an exception for 12 to 13 year olds, the age diffrence must be less than 2 years older than him or herself.

This is the type of information that girls and boys need to know and if more adults were aware that prison terms can be given and are applied then maybe people would think twice before deciding to marry off their daughters at the tender age of 12.

If someone said this about me I wouldnt take an offence just because someone stated an opinion about me. Why? Because I am an adult and I can deal things like an adult.

Alameda did say things in the past and most of us know what beliefs and opinions she holds to. If DD or I give an opinion based on the posts in the past we know what we say because we personally took in many debates.

I keep to what I said: Alameda was not insulted but merely provoked.

However, it is some people´s here habbit or hobby to get offended and insulted by everything said and discussed. Really, just like a child.

BTW, Si--, thank you for your thread. Although Im curious of your own input on this never dying ever flaming problem. What kind of solutions do you see?

Stumpy,

Dont you see the laws and regulations have no power? If it did half of the eastern Turkey would be in jail, right?

maybe lemon but it is a start, it has to start somewhere.

I like wise posts trying to raise the discussion at higher level. Thank you, lemon But, unfortunately, it is useless since every discussion here is merely used as an opportunity (by some people of a certain group) to turn it into a personal attack on those who don´t agree with them. And those who should be the last people to complain about this, are always the first to cry out "I am attacked, I am attacked!" 

Really?

You mean white english scottish and welsh do force their daughters into marriage?

So far it is a Turkish problem because the initial post was saying so, plus Turkey itself is enough big source.

As you say you dont know much about the situation there, then what was your point? What input you wanted to add?

Im still curious about Turkish men´s opinions here.

Stumpy, it has definetly a start. It started long before Canadians were Canadians

Open your mouth, they will shovel there the rights that Turkish women obtained before French (of which there is a huge pride).

Do you get my point? The laws can state anything, but the practise has in reality nothing to do with the law.

 there is a quote in my country, it sounds like: do like the priest are saying not like the priest are doing

Exactly! They are never tired of complaining and victimizing themselves!

Well, Scal, its always worth writing. If not you (and other Turks) who would?

Im on this site since 2006 and I havent seen many Turkish female members here. As if they got no voice.

So at least we would hear you.

I am calm now, but as soon as I imagine a little girl being traded like a sheep and sold to another man for marriage then my blood boils and if I had a gun I would shoot the culprints I think. Thats how I am, totally emotional.

they have rights but if those women don´t do or say anything then it would be best to have their rights taken away in that case, don´t you think?

it starts with one voice and it will grow. This woe is me mentality is not the answer.

do you think those girls feel like they have support?  If they were to see that women to the west of them supported them and were willing to do something about it then they would surely feel like they could also do something and change things also

that is my point of view

Anyone with any amount of wisdom could realize you are not discussing anything. You are just playing an ego game which you must win. A sore loser; a proud winner, welcome to Peter Bruegel´s Children´s Games.

You all may remember this medical phrase: from diagnosis to therapy. This means we must identify the problem before we attempt to solve it. But it is not easy to identify the problem as it is more complicated than it appears to be.

To roughly outline the problem and the solution: The problem has both sociological and religious relevance which are more stronger than the effect of law.So no formalistic solution can solve such a problem as this unless supported by economic fundamentals. You also must expand the freedoms of the Kurdish people who are still living there under feudalism. But the government is not there to look after all of its citizens, but all they do is to sit on their fat ***es and give long, empty speeches on reform in the region. (and some here still trust the government!)

Oh limon,

I don´t see any solution to this problem in the near future, unfortunately. I think education would help but we should see many generations come and go.

How can you change the mentality from today to tomorrow? They see these girls something (a slave actually) to be sold. How many children would you yourself like to have? 2/3/4? These guys have more than 10 usually. I heard of a guy with 39 children from different wives. They are so shameless that they even apply to the State to demand poverty aid. They don´t work at all. They force their children do all the work (including begging in streets, collecting stuff from dust bins etc). The girls have no chance to get any education usually (why need such an effort since they are to be sold when they are 12 or above).

Also some time ago, I had posted an example of how they are sold here

BTW, I am curious why do you always turn si++ to si--?

Doing all my best to offend you.

Thank you for your post.

So I was right, theres nothing one can do in order to help those girls, tough and bitter reality.

Nobody can take offence at their own words. If they do then it´s perhaps that they are asamed of what they swear by

Crying that they were insulted or provoked is a trick on their behalf to take the attention off the topic. In more or less the same way when in other forums somebody´s spelling is criticised instead of the content of his/her post. I got used to being fed weak comparisons of medieval laws to justify contemporary actions, as well the everlasting argument "how many x do you actually know in person to have an opinion" - I don´t know any murderers in person but I still have an opinion!

Whether or not you approve of the way I called Alameda´s name, you can´t tell me I lied or twisted her words. M ost of you haven´t been here long enough to rememeber all the fiery discussions we´ve had and that´s why you think it was an attack while it was just stating a fact. As it turned out later on, I was right. And that´s all I´m going to say about this thing as it got really boring and not to the point. If anyone wishes to sermon me further, please PM me, I´d rather focus on the topic here

Now, back on topic. I´d like to hear a sensible solution because apparently the only thing I´m hearing is that Turkey does not discriminate against women as they were the first to get the voting right. Switzerland was the last 1971 and now women make the majority in government.

Just checked Wiki, seems Turkey was not first at all

In the years before World War I, Norway (1913) and Denmark (1915) also gave women the right to vote, and it was extended throughout the remaining Australian states. Near the end of the war, various states gave women the right to vote, including Canada, Soviet Russia, Germany and Poland. British women over 30 had the vote in 1918, Dutch women in 1919, and American women in states that had previously denied them suffrage were allowed the vote in 1920. Women in Turkey were granted voting rights in 1926. In 1928, suffrage was extended to all British women on the same terms as men, that is, for persons 21 years old and older. One of the most recent jurisdictions to grant women full equal voting rights was Bhutan in 2008.

I have no idea how to introduce a change. It seems reasonable to assume that once women have a chance to educate themselves and are able to support themselves, they´ll do the revolution ont heir own. Poverty and religiousness are key factors making it hard for them to be men´s equals.

 It is offensive when, instead of a quote in context is taken, and an out of context synopsis of what you thought was intended is presented as a quote.  I will stand by what I say, when it is presented in context and an accurate quote is used.

You must realize by now I don´t suffer misrepresentation of my thoughts easily. I am having to defend myself.

The topic is an important one, and instead of discussing the topic, it has been turned into this. I was not in this thread, you brought me into it, and if you insist on bringing  me into it.

Do these women know it is a bad thing? Why do we consider it a bad thing?

Personally, I think it is a good thing and a bad thing, it depends on how you look at things, no? So, what is bad to people who think this situation is awful, to these women it is just life to them. They might not know any different.

As humans, we can only judge personally what is right and wrong. So if they rebel against or follow, that is their choice.

So I look at it as they choice not to try to escape, they choose to wake up in that situation, they choose not to help themselves, then that is what they want.

Unmei, I think I hate you.

Children are children. Do you think you should ask children if they want marriage or being matched for money?

Correct me if I am wrong.

Aah...people hate things they don´t understand.

Lemon, you can choose to look at things in many different ways! Open your eyes to that and you will find things in this world are not as bad as we make them to be.

You make this situation look bad only to yourself. Because you know what is bad to you by your own understanding. That is why you ´hate´ what I say. But your alright Lemon

What makes you think that I dont understand? What makes you think that you understand?

What is the difference between you and me?

Unmei, in that case, lets sell you to a person you dont know.

By following your pattern it may lead anyone to understand and accept everything, you just accept it. With this we can even accept all sorts of crime.

Forgive me, but I have strong stances in many life areas. White is white, black is black, no grey zone.

 I posted the information regarding the age of consent in Europe in response to the statement certain people would be considered pedophiles today. I did that to show the context of certain 7th Century actions.

According to todays accepted standard definition, pretty much the whole of Europe would been considered pedophiles, particularly the royalty and upper classes.

Do we need this information, Alameda? What for? How do this help or ease the problem of todays children being forced into marriages?

Yes, things happent in the past. So? Does it somehow justify anything? That history we all know and theres no need to educate us.

Alameda, unfortunately, you still keep resorting to your old tricks - throw the ball into the neighour´s court - diverting attention from the real topic.

 I think you have it si++

Education is the answer...when certain actions become socially unacceptable, when people are ashamed of their actions, when they are ostracized by their community, then they stop. Thus it would seem consciousness raising is the key.

I agree with you, however to the contrary lemon....it is in response to post # 42 in this thread....which had nothing to do with the thread, but was brought in....

......and again I reiterate....nobody should be forced into marriage. However, seeing as bride age has been brought in, It was also to show the age of consent has varied throughout time, and location.

It would be hard for me to imagine a young girl loving an old man, and I do know Romeo and Juliette would have been considered children today. Then, we have the cases of Celine Dion, who married a much older man, and seems to deeply love him. Sophia Loren who married Carlo Ponti when she was 15 and he was 37. Not all Spring Fall marriages are forced disasters.

Do you think young people who are in love should not be allowed to marry?

- which quote was out of context? Which proved you to be of an opinion different from what you said? All quotes presented you as being in favour of arranged marriages. You´ve confirmed it numerous times later on. What is the manipulation then? Context is easy to find, I gave link to your posts - anyone can check the context.

I agree with Lemon, you´re using old tricks, that people unable to think for themselves will fall for - not my problem. You know if you start shouting FIRE and ran out in the street, a few people will start shouting the same, just because it´s what we call in Polish a herd effect (sorry, don´t know the English term for that). It means you don´t think, you act following others from your herd. 

Age of consent would show 99% of royalties in Europe paedophiles? Sure! And in many cases it would be considered incest according to the law today! Does that change the fact about Mohamet The Murdering Face? Nope. Does it justify girls being married at 9? Nope again. So, what was the point you were trying to make in that particular post?

Should we forbid a girl of 15 to marry a 37 year old guy even if she loves him? Sure. Once she reaches the legal age it´s up to her what to do. Remember that Dutch party of paedophiles who wanted to legalise sex with 13 year olds? They didn´t get very popular in Europe.

Lemon, until alameda was forced to join the discussion, i was assessing the early and forced marriages problem from my point of view and i was saying that the main problem is;

1. feudal structure of the region

2. non-caring selectives of the region

Thats the way i always am. I always focus on the main question and solutions. Noone in that site can say you attacked me. However, you supposed not to find it odd to use the defence right when someone is being attacked. Beacuse me and many people like me are not shalterless to use their defencing rights. That defence is rather a duty regarding justice. Because after an attack is made, the main question turns to be save the victim and punish the attacker. If justice gets destroyed, everything else gets destroyed afterwarths.

If it wasn´t like that, someone else would focus on barba mamas constructive posts in the middle of the burning posts.

I wonder why the legal age of consent is lower for girls than for boys... Shouldn´t men and women be equal in the eyes of the law?

 Barba,

It is probably because when they become men and women differs a great deal.

Where you are do girls and boys mature at the same rate? Here I regularly see 13 & 14 year old girls who can pass for 21, but very few boys who look like anything but a child.

Isn´t it? Just like non Turkish males

True, but aging is not something that is the same for everybody, so the law does not need to consider this difference. There are boys of 16 who are almost adults, and some look like they are 12. The law shouldn´t say "people who are mentally mature" or something. The law is the law, and shouldn´t be gender-equal if the goverment states that men and women are equal. Turkey has signed many agreements on banning gender discrimination in the law, and making men and women legally equal. In my opinion, they should also change this law accordingly.

I don´t think it´s the problem of the representatives of the region only, after all, Turkey is not a federation, is it? Laws should be applied the same way all over the country, and I know they are the same. So the problem is not in the law, as Turkish one states clearly what the legal age is. The problem is application. Like I said, I´d blame poverty, religion and lack of education.

East is poorer than the west in Turkey, poverty often breeds pathology. If women are not able to make a living themselves, they´ll always be dependent on men. And it´s a one way road to discrimination, forced marriages and honour killings, as men know their position in the society is higher.

It is very hard to change people´s minds and tell them their traditions are bad. Especially hard when they get nothing in return

 On the contrary, the law should consider all the issues. I think it was covered in your statement....men and women. When girls are considered to be women and boys are considered men they aquire different rights and responsibilities.

As for the aging thing, of course, some people are old at 40 others young at 70...or more. However, certain biological milestones are passed and an average of what those are are use as a guide.

What different rights and responsibilities do you mean? I thought we all have the same rights and responsibilities, regardless of gender