Phew, where do i start?

Alameda - first of all, sorry, if you took my remark as a personal attack. We´ve know each other for a long time, and I thought you got used to my wicked sense of humour. All being said, I still stand by my words, that the difference between arranged and forced is very thin, if there´s any at all, for reasons I stated in my earlier post. Also, let me repeat, I didn´t put these words into your mouth, anyone is free to check our post history where we debate about it.

Vineyards - thank you for the nice words. Worry not, I respect most members on this site regardless of whether we agree or not on most subjects. I´ve always valued Alameda´s input into debates, although 180 degrees different from my point of view, I can see where she´s coming from. Like I said, a bit of teasing on my behalf is a sign of familiarity.

Handsom - thank you for seeing my point. I would only slightly disagree about conservatives, conservatives in the west and in the east differ. While eastern conservatives may be ok with forced marriages and will find it the only system that works for their children, the conservatives in the west would be more about accepting, rather than choosing a spouse for their child. I have to say I am a bit conservative in some respects, not as far as moral conduct is concerned, but in terms of the system of justice or family values.

Elisabeth - just as I wrote to Handsom, there´s a difference between conservative and conservative. Vineyards remembers arranged marriages working one generation above him, I don´t remember it even at the level of my great grandmother on my mum´s side. Still, I don´t know anyone in my family, in my parents generation (they´re in their 50s) who would marry somebody the family didn´t accept. Oh, no! Sorry! My late paternal aunt (19 years older than my father, who´s 58 now) was 14 when a guy asked to marry her. She wasn´t interested but my grandma had a different opinion and would chase her through the village with a leather belt in her hands to change her mind She did, and my aunt married a terrible guy. Luckily for her, the bastard died quite soon. Sorry for the digression. Ahain, I´ll repeat myself, I´m with you on family values, with the restriction that family never comes before reason. If you marry and he is a geebag, divorce instead of being unhappy just for the sake of being married.

Oeince - I don´t think you´ve been following the debates attentively enough. I recommed post search, you´ll then see what we´re talking about.

Lemon - 100% with you on what the values are today. I´d say only few countries in the west put family first, and the definition of a family has changed a lot as well. It can be single-parent family, homosexual family, not always the 2+2 nuclear one. Serial monogamy is still in practice as well as many other types. Surely, it changes on an individual level, but generally I agree with you.

I knew you would finally come up with something that made sense !!! 

***

In my opinion the best, the most meaningful post on this thread is Elisabeth´s (as an answer given to Theh)

The main reason of all negative events, sins, crimes, terrorist activities
and the increase in criminal records in the world
is the abnormal rise of these uneducated people.
The world´s population is currently 5-6 billions.
Only 4-5% of this population is educated according to statistics.
Unfortunately, the majority of the world´s population is uneducated,
in other words, potential danger.
This is a socio-economic tragedy.

P.S.

Of course, university – college education is not enough.
“Education and culture”  do not mean “school” only.
Uneducated people does not mean “uneducated”.
People need family culture - education and community culture – education and
self-sufficient culture.

No. The only Seat I have these days happens to be a car. I suggest you read my message again. There might be an innuendo hidden somewhere.

to Si++ - you asked what shoked me, and I have to sadly admit that nothing really does any more. I´ve seen/heard about all types of tragedys these days so much so that they are not shocking at all. Whether it be floods/earthquakes etc ruining and killing thousands of people lives, whether a father/mother has set fire to their own house to kill themselves along with their children, or whether a child is kidnapped and raped before being killed, or whether it´s honor killings, or murders for no reason and so on.

Don´t get me wrong, it ALL horrifies me, but shocks me? Not one bit. There´s too much of it in today´s world to make it shocking any more. It happens so much you sadly get used to hearing it all.

 On the actual subject note: I agree the difference between arranged and forced marriages is very thin but we must not forget that that line still exists and thankfully too. Some women agree to arranged marriages - and I know one of them being very excited about the whole thing. To that note I do not disagree with arranged marriages if the participants agree to it, but if they do not, no-one should have the right to force someone to do something they do not wish to do when it will dramatically change their lives.

I also agree that all around the world people live their lives, dramatically different to what we live ours and in most (not all!) cases we should have to respect that (unless we count it as morally wrong). For example the chinese eat such different variety, some of which we would consider a health hazard in a kitchen (cockroach), or alot of (not all!) eastern countries the woman is considered to be the one to stay at home etc and the man at work, where as western countries, women show more independence. Or another example we all celebrate different days, like in India, they celebrate Holi festival and they go round covering themselves - and others! - in bright colors of powder!

I´m not saying I wish ALL the differences stuck around but like I said before these differences make our world very interesting and make learning about other cultures etc interesting too. For example, seeing everyone and yourself get splattered in different colors of powder is an experience I know that I would love because it is so different from my own (or tomato throwing in Spain! )- though I wouldn´t go as far as eating a cockroach in China 

I don´t want to get into philosophical part of it in depth but the definition of conservatism   in my post had  much more generic meaning:

I am sure some of us heard the concepts of "white crow" or "The Painted Bird"-the novel from  Kosinski. When you paint a crow white and leave it to its existing flock of crows, that white crow is exterminated or kicked out of the flock.

We are, in the end, animals and our biological purpose is to continue living/ to survive. 

I am sure you will agree that "people put some rules for themselves for living together and with that, try to guarantee its survival".

People generically tend to obey these rules as a whole bunch. But there are always some white crows. Some people objects these rules; they question them; they object the way they are.  

In animal kingdom, these naughty members which object the herds way, are eliminated or pushed away. 

That is almost the same for people as well..Contradictory people are kicked out.

But for people, because we are able to think, there is another factor which is important for survival: You have to adapt/change and be better!!!

Now coming to the word conservative. Conservatives are the people who try to keep these rules. But for what? Of course, for the better;for their feature;for their children; for themselves; in the end, for their own survival in their mind..

The herd, generically speaking, is always conservative in any given time and resist the changes. The existence of new ideas/new ways are always considered as the danger for the society for their survival. But on the other hand, the  survival depends on the change!!

So for the long term, the change is inevitable and it means the conservatives lose..There is nothing wrong in that..I think the important thing is to be aware of this cycle of changes..

Who gives a guarantee that education solves the problem? What happens to uneducated people? Are they bad? I just hate education to be treated like a god. There are millions of educated people. Are they all good?

I have read all the messages about this topic.  As always there is an inability to understand each other´s viewpoints, or deliberately twisting them to fit an argument.

It is a sad truth that underage marriages are enforced in many countries around the globe.  Contrary to what most of you may think, the parents are well aware of the dangers and the potential to make their daughters unhappy.  So are they without feelings for their daughters?

I believe not.  They will try to do their best for their children, as much as anyone else. To keep them safe, in a good home, and with the prospect of a decent life.  They fear the alternative--- if the daughter gets older she may run around with men, and disgrace the family, which could cost her life.  She may be less eligible and attract a less desirable husband.  And if she is doing the unthinkable and has sex before marriage, it is the parents who will be questioned on the day of judgement, according to the hadith: whoever raises two daughters ( islamically) well, will go to paradise.  Once they are married, the parents have done their duty.

 The change has to come from the most conservative of Imams, who will naturally be very reluctant to advise parents against an early marriage just because some Western educated people demand it.  The prophet´s wife, Aisha, according to some Hadith, was 9 years old when she got married and she loved him very much, growing into  most respected authority  on Islamic law.  It does not make him a paedophile, but it was a custom designed to protect vulnerable young orphans and strengthen bonds between families.  Nor was the marriage forced, but freely contracted.

Times have changed, and people forget that the Prophet was a special man whose personal integrity was impeccable.  No one can emulate what he has done, especially not in their private lives. It is Islamic education peple need, and would accept more easily, not Western one. 

Islam and Western law have to work hand in hand to make it clear to parents that the risks of an early, forced marriage, outweigh the benefits.  You are right, if the government was more popular, then it could influence public opinion.  At the moment, you can only work through that most despised of mediums: Religion!

And finally, i do take offence that i, as a student of this site,  would benefit of an arranged marriage because i could not find a man otherwise. 

None of my friends has ever complained about my looks, and as usual the problem is keeping Turkish men away, rather than attracting them, since they seem to find anything remotely female looking ´interesting´ .  I am learning Turkish because i have a man, not because i want one. 

+1

"School education" is not enough to turn the rising generation into men of knowledge. You know there is this famous Turkish saying: tahsil cehaleti alır, eşeklik baki kalır. What is worse is that "school education" has a side effect as "half educated people" who are arrogant and think they know everything that actually don´t know anything.  

I know what is being spoken here and what is worth to touch on in that thread is, the hideousness of adressing and insisting to adress some other one in a slanderer way. That style couses the loss of connection and conflict.

Hey!  I’ve read all these posts about marriage and these young girls – but no one has mentioned SEX!!!!!

What about teaching sex education to these young girls in school!  What does a 12 year old TURKISH girl know about sex – the actual consummation of a marriage?   Can you imagine the incredible fear and pain that those poor girls experience when on their first day as a wife –they have this much older man do strange things to them?  - and worse yet,  knowing that this experience will happen for the rest of their lives…! ( I wonder what he suicide rate is...)

Let me explain, I’m not talking porn flicks, I’m talking about the fundamental knowledge of the female body and the explanation of why they experience changes and what is “normal.’ It simply explains (medically) basic sex, sexual identity, relationships and intimacy.

Here in the US sexual education is core to overcoming the sometimes stupid, but mostly horrific thoughts young people have about their sexual growth. C’mon – everyone talks about it; everyone does it…even dogs n cats.  So let’s grow up. Let’s teach these girls that sex is OK and this is part if growing up.   If they can’t have the luxury of falling in love, desiring another human being or even enjoying the bliss of a romantic honeymoon  - let’s at least give them the decency to talk to them about what they are expected to do and how sex should feel.   Anything less is closer to rape than intimacy.