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Lybia and the no-fly zone
(57 Messages in 6 pages - View all)
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40.       vineyards
1954 posts
 21 Mar 2011 Mon 12:05 am

 

Quoting stumpy

 Damned if you don´t, damned if you do. Whatever the West does in this situation, there is always somebody who thinks it´s wrong.  

Maybe our leaders should have left well enough alone and let Gaddafi kill his own people.  If this would have been done instead then we would have been considered monsters anyways because our leaders allowed it to happen.

Anyways, whatever I say you will find something negative about me, so go right ahead, take your best shot, contrary to what you think I am not a hatefull person and I do listen to the opinions of others.  And I do try to learn from these discution contrary to popular belief.

 

Well, this is perfectly normal, there can always be multiple reactions, this is quite understandable. After all, what we have here are pretty much like Western and Eastern fan clubs. Both are very predictable. I would be surprized if  either group could ever show some sort of empathy. This is almost in their making, with all those stereotypes injected into their brains, all that they can do is producing these uniform sentences. Anyway, as we are talking Libya´s coffin is getting ready, another zombie republic will take its place. Its wealth will be distributed among Western investors and this way Sarko will not need to ask for money from Qaddafi for his next election campaign, nor will Britain have to look for Arab owners for their football clubs. The money is there to be taken.

 

I will not find anything wrong about you unless you sing the praises of these savage invasions. Stop intimidating the world with weapons and fire power. In the past, we lost almost half of our population to the vicious desires of the Western forces. We fought a war of independence to clear our country from those well-meant French, British and Greek invaders. We know how it feels that´s all. You should understand, the threat is always coming from the West who doesn´t want to let anyone hold on to the wealth of their own nations. 

So the question here is not you. It is just a general reaction. Enough is enough.



Edited (3/21/2011) by vineyards

cedars liked this message
41.       stumpy
638 posts
 21 Mar 2011 Mon 01:01 am

Yes vineyard, enough is enough, there are people here that think that way also.  I agree with you on that point.

 

42.       vineyards
1954 posts
 21 Mar 2011 Mon 06:02 am

Well, we are getting quite a bit cryptic but anyway. I must set the record straight, I don´t want global cops or a new world order, all I am asking for is letting all nations determine their own fates and staying away from their borders unless there is an anonymously determined humanitarian ground.

Big brothers get out of our gardens and give peace a chance...

Anyone not getting this message, don´t worry, the world has always been the other way around and it seems it will remain that way.

We will sadly, remain as a few objectors whose voice is not heard.

 

 

slavica liked this message
43.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 21 Mar 2011 Mon 09:44 am

I´m sorry but I can´t believe that some of you actually think that western intervention has anything to do with humanitarian aid, helping common folk or peacekeeping. Why hasn´t the west sent their troops to other countries with dictators? How about wars in Africa? In 1981 we had a marshal law in Poland that lasted for 2 years. How many friendly interventions from our western neighbours? Ahm...let me see...none! And yet Libya gets on the mouth of everybody bot because of oil or because of the international businesses but because of injustice..yeah right

slavica and Aida krishan liked this message
44.       vineyards
1954 posts
 21 Mar 2011 Mon 06:52 pm

When he rose to power they said he would be the next deccal but it seems he is proving how wrong that assumption was. Putin made a statement saying the UN´s call for attacking Libya is  no different from the crusade calls of the medieval times. He said Qaddafi´s regime does not live up to the democratic norms but that doesn´t justify an armed intervention.

In the aftermath of the 1980 coup millions of people in Turkey were jailed, subjected to tortures, and some were evaporated, no one ever threatened Turkey. Thank God we don´t have oil. Because I would prefer to be tortured by my own people rather than having to fight yet another war of independence.  

45.       stumpy
638 posts
 21 Mar 2011 Mon 08:16 pm

Quote:vineyards

He said Qaddafi´s regime does not live up to the democratic norms but that doesn´t justify an armed intervention.
So it is acceptable to be killed by your ruler because you want democraty?  He killed his own people because they were tired of his rule.  If he is such a benevolant ruler he would not have bombarded his own people.

46.       vineyards
1954 posts
 21 Mar 2011 Mon 09:02 pm

Stumpy, if some maniac takes the reins of your own country, will you go and ask for help from Turkey?

Every country must determine their own fate and must pay what is necessary.

47.       bydand
755 posts
 21 Mar 2011 Mon 09:47 pm

 

Quoting Daydreamer

I´m sorry but I can´t believe that some of you actually think that western intervention has anything to do with humanitarian aid, helping common folk or peacekeeping. Why hasn´t the west sent their troops to other countries with dictators? How about wars in Africa? In 1981 we had a marshal law in Poland that lasted for 2 years. How many friendly interventions from our western neighbours? Ahm...let me see...none! And yet Libya gets on the mouth of everybody bot because of oil or because of the international businesses but because of injustice..yeah right

I usually admire your contributions DD but I must argue some of the points you raise here. You speak of the crisis in Poland in 1981. Any interference from the west would have resulted in Russian intervention from the east. Is that what you would have prefered? Also I was only two years old at the time so don´t recall much about it but on the 3rd September 1939 Britain declared war on Germany because she would not withdraw her forces from Poland. Selective memory on your part maybe? Now the present crisis in Libya. The Arab League were one of the original mooters of the no fly zone and today their leader Amr Moussa reaffirmed their support of the UN no fly resolution in order to protect those opposed to Gaddafi. So not an entirely western action.

 



Edited (3/21/2011) by bydand

48.       stumpy
638 posts
 22 Mar 2011 Tue 02:33 am

Quote:vineyards

if some maniac takes the reins of your own country, will you go and ask for help from Turkey?
with Russia to the north of us and the USA to the south of us I doubt it that a maniac would make it within 100 meters of ruling my country... it would get nuked faster than you could say Obama for second mandate

49.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 22 Mar 2011 Tue 11:45 am

 

Quoting bydand

 

I usually admire your contributions DD but I must argue some of the points you raise here. You speak of the crisis in Poland in 1981. Any interference from the west would have resulted in Russian intervention from the east. Is that what you would have prefered? Also I was only two years old at the time so don´t recall much about it but on the 3rd September 1939 Britain declared war on Germany because she would not withdraw her forces from Poland. Selective memory on your part maybe? Now the present crisis in Libya. The Arab League were one of the original mooters of the no fly zone and today their leader Amr Moussa reaffirmed their support of the UN no fly resolution in order to protect those opposed to Gaddafi. So not an entirely western action.

 

 

You´re absolutely right about it not being an entirely western action this time, but I´ll stick to my point which was that west (or any country for that matter) doesn´t intervene unless its business is at peril. UK joined the WWII as they considered III Reich a global threat, not because it attacked Poland. For the same reason the US didn´t join in till 1941 and Pearl Harbour.

Another thing to consider is whether the intervention, whatever the reasons behind it, will bring more good than evil and to whom...

As for Vineyard´s point regarding whether or not foreign countries should interfere with domestic issues, it´s a hard question. On the one hand it might be considered war to interfere with one country´s internal problems, on the other, sometimes the common people might not be strong enough to oppose the regime. If your neighbour´s wife is being battered, would you not intervene? Especially if she´s the one that cooks your dinners?

It´s not a simple matter and no choice of action is flawless. I can just naively hope for a good change to happen to the people of Libya

50.       vineyards
1954 posts
 22 Mar 2011 Tue 07:18 pm

French Minister of Domestic Affairs appeared on TV yesterday and openly named the attack on Libya as a "crusade" directed by Sarkozy. 

 

Source: www.hurriyet.com.tr

 



Edited (3/22/2011) by vineyards

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