I understand Turkish Government is expected - by some- to guarantee safe and dignified departure of our beloved terrorists from Turkia, in accordance with recent agreements. So be it !

What I want to know is who will guarantee that none of these leaving terrorists will ever come back ?

Funny, no one else seems to ask this question; not even gokuyum !

Why would/should "terrorists leaving Turkey" bother some Turks? 

That is the question.

I don´t think anyone who loves this country will be bothered with "terrorists leaving Turkey". Who wouldn´t want it to happen ?

AlphaF means they should be put in cold storage first.

Read again...what bothers Turks is the possibility of some returning, once they realize inside was better.

We tried..

Infact, we tried 30 years. While trying we lost 40.000/50.000 people directly, 10.000-20.000 indirectly.

An agreement has been made. They will leave Turkey. After all these, if you are still bothered  why they are leaving, then I will have right to  ask the question "Why?".

What is going on? What agreement? What terrorists?

because the first time they arrived they were being directed by a singular command, so now they are also retreating with an order coming from a singular commandment. you should instead ask yourself how this comes in sycn with the sudden israel apology and replacement of the syrian seat with the government repserenstative with the rebel representative and how n. korea goes berserk while usa gives the final line to iran.

we all know that both the engineer of the pkk peace and the israeli apology is obama. so obama is your guarantee. pkk is not a collective eşkıya act or ethnicity-based rebellion thing as its believed to be. this sudden cease of all violence in the past few months is a clear sign of this collective commanding network.

and believe me even if they want to return they will have to replenish their numbers seriously and that will take some time.

it doesnt bother us that terrorists leave the country. it bothers us if they will continue their actions from outside and will tour europes and americas as a reward for their violent actions. there are 30.000 casulties and these people have families. if your family member was also killed by someone you would also want to see those people punished by the athorities instead of being let go by the authorities. but regardless of this fact, many of the matyr families and the families whose children died while fighting for pkk support peace and agreement without any condition.

as well as i do. though not without condition

If you know our history, if you know what happened in last 100 years, you would not think that ´everything started with a single command´. PKK is the result of the politics of last 100 years; results of the ´failed´ assimilation. Basically it is nothing to do with Obama. Obama was not born and the USA was not a super power when the problems with  Kurds started.

It will be the most likely, if you connect the recent developments with PKK and Ocalan with our PMs ambition to be the president and the new constitution(with added usa style presidency). Israel/North Korea etc are  very unlikely connections. However, I can accept the connections with Iran/Syria/Northern Irak, sii-sunni power struggle in the region . But no external reason is more powerful than Turkish people´s desire to see peace in their own country.

Why even not me?

I hope they will never come back. I want peace.

I understand the current agreement with Apo clearly mentions that armed PKK members currently on the mountains will leave Turkia and go to other countries.

However, THAT THEY WILL NEVER COME BACK IS NOT WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN THE AGREEMENT.

We may have a surprise party anytime soon.....

Since the begining of this year, the state opened the talks with PKK and Ocalan (the jailed leader of PKK) (or started doing this publicly)

Since then, the PKK leader, despite he is in jail,  become quite prominant in politics. Ocalan and the state agreed on something. According to Ocalan, the time of  weapons is over.  In Newros in Diyarbakir, his letter was read to over 1 million Kurds (in 21st of March). In his letter he ordered the PKK fighters to leave Turkey. He said they are moving from armed struggle to political struggle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21874427

The state is adjusting itself according to the peace. ie. Letting PKK fighters to leave Turkey.  Possibly an amnesty will follow.

I think most the population is ready for this new paradigm too. Only some outdated people are objecting.

excuse me if i refuse to believe that pkk is a kurdish movement and connected with kurd teali guild back in the world war 1. its true that these guilds and cemiyets have been worked upon for almost like 200 years and their situation constantly misrepresented and improved for centuries, but i dont think that pkk is a result of this. its true that they used this misconception to help themselves with numbers, but if you take a moment and think about their tactics and the dates that they have started "working" you will see that the core strategy is far from a simple rebellion or a result of "fake assimilation".

if pkk was directly related with the mistreatment of kurds, this movement would have died as soon as it started. it wouldve died at 60, or 80, like the rest of such people-based movements. but any eneral in the army will tell you that pkk is a foreign threat that takes its strenght from beyond the border, syria, iran and iraq. everybody knows that they have training camps almost everywhere, greece and israel being the top most. do you know any other ethnicity-related movement that received so much foreign support anywhere else in the world?

if it was a simple final-chain-of-the-eastern-rebellions than 1- 5 million kurds would be supporting it and the country wouldve turned upside down 2- the ethnic demographics of pkk would not include a 60% armenian rate 3- they wouldnt be using heavy weapons such as mortars, rocket launchers, anti air missles, light cannons and light weapons which were all more advanced than the ones that being were used by the turkish army in 90s, they would be using simple handguns.

plus its a bit far-off guess to think that this teali and cemiyet movements that were parented by britian and france in ww1 are still being supported and seriously worked upon by england at the moment. i dont know france though. but i dont think their intelligence is as advanced to work above and around the american, iranian, barzani and israeli intelligence in the region.

i do agree however that this fight has hit the knife to the bone and everybody is sick and tired of it and no foreign games can change the turkish mind that is set for peace right now.

I think in the end, it is up to you if PKK is the result of 90 years of Kurdish politics of our republic or not. Or in generic, you call our policies of creating ´one nation´ ´fake asimilation´.

This movement or PKK did not go away or died away because the mistreatement of Kurds continued. That is simply the truth. Now, they are asking for equality and a life as Kurds. This is as simple as that. Any general in the army? I would not believe them. We heard that ´foreign element´ as a story since the begining of PKK. Infact, if you check the history there were almost ´foreign elements in every rebellion´. (Even in Sheik Sait rebellion- later, Inonu said it was not the truth ). Foreign elements rethoric has gone long time ago.  Even the president says that the problem is inside our borders.

But anyway, all these argumants were for one thing and one thing only: A turkey without terrorism and a Turkey, where everybody lives with their own identity. A better Turkey. More democratical Turkey.

And it seems like we are a step closer to that objective.

Thank you for the explanation, that is interesting. What do the Kurdish people get in return though? But who are the PKK fighters that will leave the country? I thought it was a guerrilla type of an organization. 

Also, how is this helping Erdogan become president? Aren´t Kurdish people incredibly unpopular and wouldn´t it be more populist of him to just continue the "war on terror"?

(...) in September 1925, a council at the League of Nations decided to advise leaving the Mosul to the British Mandate of Mesopotamia. Turkey decided to resist this advice and prevent a final decision (awarding it to Britain). The border between Turkish forces (Turkey) and British forces (British Mandate of Mesopotamia) was based on the Brussels line and, beginning in November 1924, the escalating rebellion was a threat to prove that the Brussels line is not the correct line, which left the Kurds divided.

The rebellion diminished the negotiating power of Turkey and the Ottoman province of Musul was assigned to British Mandate of Mesopotamia. The final conclusion of the rebellion from existent powers were the British have the control of Mosul and Turkey were the chance of uniting Mosul Province, Ottoman Empire to Turkey.

The 1920 Koçkiri rebellion in the overwhelmingly Kizilba§ Dersim region, while waged by the Kizilba§ Koçkiri tribe, was masterminded by members of an organisation known as the Kürdistan Taâlî Cemiyeti (KTC) (van Bruinessen, Utrecht, 1978: footnote 35: 446 and Olson, 1989: 26-33).and to obtain British assistance, realising that Kurdistan could not stand alone (Olson, 1989: 45).

Three months after the Treaty of Sèvres was signed, the Society together with leaders of the Koçkiri tribe (Alevi–Kurd) revolted at Dersim in eastern Asia Minor.^[1] It is documented that the organisation was used by the English in order to fight against Turkish nationalists.

the head participants of şeyh said rebellion were also members of the kürt teali cemiyeti during the british invasion, like şeyh abdülkadir. the whole thing was coordinated by the teali guild which was created by the british to fight against the ottoman empire. kurdistan at that time was the british mandate of mesopotamia. the whole thing was about musul-kerkük. it would be outright fallacy to claim that the whole rebellion was an inside-thing. it was definitely a foreign matter. there are countless british intelligences about this. inönüs comment is too weak against the historical facts.

you keep being skeptical against every general in the army and parrot the kurdish nationalists sayings. very objective.

Sheikh Said rebbellion was more like a nationalist rebellion against Ankara´s ´sudden´ change about Turkish Nationalism. Though Sheikh himself was a religious person and rebelled because Ankara returned caliphate back to Saudi Arabia, others who started the rebellion were nationalists.

Although that rebellion weaked Turkey´s hand during the negotiations about Musul and Kerkuk, there is no concrete evidence Sheikh Sait rebellion had something to do with foreigners. When you look at the situation, British governement were a bit scared that Turkey going down on Musul and Kerkuk and that will be the resulting in continuation of the war. But they used Turkey´s handling of the rebellion as a reason why mainly Kurdish polpulated Musul and Kerkuk should not be left to Turkey.

In 1924 March, using Kurdish language in courts were banned. At the same time Kurdish at schools were banned. Almost all Kurdish schools were closed. And at the same time education tax was put into action. Kurds strangely, started to pay education tax for their closed schools. When Ankara  returned caliphate back to SArabia, that was the last straw for some Kurds.

Comin back to foreign elements. Inonu was between all these. He was PM the president and the second most powerful man in the state after Ataturk. His words are important. As long as there is no evidence and only rumors we have about this foreign elements, I am afraid, I wont give any credits.  

In the end, it is best if we know our history better.

On March 26, 1946, due to pressure from Western powers including the United States, the Soviets promised the Iranian government that they would pull out of northwestern Iran. In June, Iran reasserted its control over Iranian Azerbaijan. This move isolated the Republic of Mahabad, eventually leading to its destruction.

The Republic of Mahabad depended on Soviet support. Archibald Bulloch Roosevelt, Jr., grandson of the former U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, wrote in "The Kurdish Republic of Mahabad" that a main problem of the People´s Republic of Mahabad was that the Kurds needed the assistance of the USSR; only with the Red Army did they have a chance. However, this close relationship to the USSR alienated the republic from most Western powers, causing them to side with Iran. Qazi Muhammad did not deny that his republic was funded and supplied by the Soviets, but did deny that the Kurdish Democratic Party (KDP) was a communist party. He claimed that this was a lie fabricated by the Iranian military authorities, and added that his ideals were very different from the Soviets´.^[4]

Qazi Muhammad´s internal support eventually declined, especially among the Kurdish tribes who had supported him initially. Their crops and supplies were dwindling, and their way of life was becoming hard as a result of the isolation. Economic aid and military assistance from the Soviet Union was now gone, and the tribes saw no reason to support Qazi Muhammad. Many tribes began to leave. The townspeople and the tribes had a large divide between them, and their alliance for Mahabad was crumbling. As previously stated, the tribes and their leaders had only supported Qazi Muhammad for his economic and military aid from the Soviet Union. Once that was gone, many did not see the purpose in staying with Qazi Muhammad. Other tribes resented the Barzanis, since they did not like sharing their already dwindling resources with them. Some Kurds deserted Mahabad, including one of Mahabad´s own marshals, Amir Khan. Mahabad was economically bankrupt, and it would have been nearly impossible for Mahabad to have been economically sound without harmony with Iran^[5]

Those who stayed began to resent the Barzani Kurds, as they had to share their resources with them.

On December 5, 1946, the war council told Qazi Muhammad that they would fight and resist the Iranian army if they tried to enter the region. The lack of Kurdish tribal support however made Qazi Muhammad only see a massacre upon the Kurdish civilians performed by the Iranian army rather than Kurdish rebellion. This forced him to avoid war at all cost, even if it meant sacrificing himself for his people, which eventually happened and lead to his execution.

On December 15, 1946, Iranian forces entered and secured Mahabad. Once there, they closed down the Kurdish printing press, banned the teaching of Kurdish language, and burned all Kurdish books that they could find. Finally, on March 31, 1947, Qazi Muhammad was hanged in Mahabad on counts of treason

For details check wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Mahabad

history is not interpretation. there are facts. and against the facts i posted you are just coming with opininons. you said that şeyh said had nothing to do with foreign powers even though it was exactly the opposite.

if the whole thing was about a swap to turkish nationalism why didnt the laz, suryani, rum rebel? there were mor arabs than zazas at that time in turkey. why didnt they rebel?

"When Ankara  returned caliphate back to SArabia, that was the last straw for some Kurds." ----> what are you even talking about? turkey never returned calphate back to arabia. they destroyed it. this bit of info pretty much shows that you dont know what you are talking about.

Abdülmecid II, (with various alternate spellings, including Abdul Mejid, Aakhir Khalifatul Muslimeen Sultan Abd-ul-Mejid and Abdul Medjit (Turkish: Abdülmecit; Ottoman Turkish: عبد المجید الثانی, Abdâlmecid el-Sâni  ( 29/30 May 1868 – 23 August/23 September 1944; reigned 19 November 1922 – 3 March 1924)) was the last Caliph of Islam from the Ottoman Dynasty, nominally the 37th Head of the Ottoman Imperial House from 1922 to 1924.

A last attempt at restoring the caliphal office and style with ecumenical recognition was made by al-Husayn ibn `Ali al-Hashimi, King of Hejaz and Sharif of Mecca, who assumed both on 11 March 1924 and held them until 3 October 1924, when he passed the kingship to his son `Ali ibn al-Husayn al-Hashimi, who did not adopt the caliphal office and style.^[17]

"
In 1924 March, using Kurdish language in courts were banned. At the same time Kurdish at schools were banned. Almost all Kurdish schools were closed. And at the same time education tax was put into action. Kurds strangely, started to pay education tax for their closed schools."

seriously where do you get all this nonsense from? cite me with your sources. march 24 is when all the medrese and ocak were connected to the central ministry of education. kurdish was not outlawed. for kurdish to be outlawed there should have been the word "kurdish" is the constitution. there is no such thing in the book sadly. the only time kurdish was outlawed was at the time of kenan evren. he describes his "mistake" like this:

"Evren’le söyleşiyi 2007 yılında, 12 Eylül’den 27 yıl sonra yapmıştım. Evren Paşa’nın pişmanlık duyduğu konu Kürtçeyi yasaklamasıydı.

-Anlatayım: 12 Eylül’de bir hatamız da oydu. Kürtçe konuşmayı yasakladık. Şöyle yasakladık: Konuşmalarda, mitinglerde, şurada burada Kürtçe konuşulmayacak. Okulda filan Kürtçe tedrisat yapılamaz. Neden dedik? Ben Devlet Başkanı’yken bir köyde ilkokula gittim. Üçüncü sınıfa mı dördüncü sınıfa mı girdim, hatırlamıyorum. Açtım kitabı, oku şunu, dedim çocuğa. ‘Kem-küm’ çoçuk okuyamıyor. Kızdım. Orada söyledim. Öğretmene döndüm; ‘Dördüncü sınıfa gelmiş Türkçeyi okuyamıyor, bu nasıl iş?’ dedim. Sonradan anlaşıldı ki, öğretmen de Kürt. Kürtçe yapıyor tedrisatı. Döndüm ve Kürtçe yasağını koyduk, Kürtçe tedrisat yapılamaz dedik. Ama biraz ağır yasak koyduk. Sonra bu yasak kaldırıldı, ama hataydı. Hata olduğunu sonradan anladım."

please know the history better yourself before trying to teach it to me.

Firstly, I didnt send my post to defence "somebodies". I sent it to show who did ban kurdish official in 1940´s. Actually kurdish looks like an Indian. The people who is living in India talks indian although they cant understand eachothers, because of their accent, that´s why they have partner and offical language like English. Because their goverment can not understand his citizens even want to help them and kurdish is a same with Indian. Im living in Istanbul and in daily life im hearing kurdish from people who is living arround of me. When i pay attantion to their conversation most of words are Turkish. So, their language is connect to Turkish also. They are trying to show as if different  using with X, W, Q .

 I wonder when they take off Turkish words from kurdish, how will they contact with others ?

Sheikh Sait rebellion did not have anything with any foreign powers. Not only Sheikh Sait rebellion, almost none of them had anything to do with foreigners. These lies were told by the state and most of us believed them. The state decieved all of us. The biggest betrayel will be(or is) felt by  the ones who believed with their whole heart. Your second president of Turkey told you that Turks did not find any evidence to connect Sheikh Sait rebellion to  British!! There is no need to go on further this. (Only evidence about this are a few catalogs sent to Sheikh Said from some arm dealers of the UK. So what? A few greedy arm dealers wanted to sell weapons to Sheikh Said. They would sell arms to even satan as long as they get paid).

Calipha back to S Arabia? I have to give the credit to your correction. You are right. Turkey has never returned the caliphate back , just abolished it.  But however, it does not change the fact that abolishing Caliphate was one of the reasons for the rebellion.

The words  Kurd and Kurdistan were banned in March 1924 as well as Kurdish language in schools.   in 1925  famous ´sark islahat plani´ (http://nedir.net/sark-islahat-plani.html) comes along. And after that anybody speaking Kurdish would pay a penalty fee for each word.  This is the fact. You can check these with all historians. You can not change these things. Kenan Evren is a spring chicken as far as assimilation policies are concerned.

Living with less lies is always better.

Yes, it is PKK and PKK is a guerrilla organization.They are our terrorists and now they are the ones leaving Turkey with an agreement.

We still dont know 100% what Kurds will get in return. I think there is promise of a proper democracy in which everybody can benefit. They also want some EU laws applied to them such as stronger local governments (ie like the UK for example) where they can elect their own people and they can control the police. They want the EU chapters for local self-governments chapters to be applied to themselves as well. I think they also are talking about a kind of recognition in the constitution.

But of course there is nothing offical. Or even if there is something written we dont know fully. Not yet. One thing for sure was that Kurds were not asking for seperation.

Erdogan´s presidency and Kurds.. That is almost exactly the question I asked a professor here several weeks ago. My question was ´why would erdogan risk it with kurds rather than making up with the nationalists as he was doing in last year?´. His answer was: a- He wants to be written in history b-He tried it with the nationalists but he realized they wont support his presidency. He has 45% and if he can secure more than 6% from the Kurds he can get his presidency through.  That is his aim.

Apart from all, there are also other regional pradigms. Iran is scary. Iran is closer to shia government of Irak. Kurds in the north is not getting on well with Bagdat. Because they want to use the oil money for themselves. The pipeline is going through Turkey. And Turkey is very close with Kurds in the north of Irak. North of Syria is a Kurdish area too.. Rumors say that Turkey is playing big. A Turkey which solved her Kurdish problem  in inland is very appealing to the Kurds in Northern Irak and Syria. More appealing then the Shia government in Bagdat. They say that once the PKK problem went away and Syria question is resolved, the borders will be no more between Turkey and Syria and Irak in reality. 

You keep saying this as if by not asking for seperation Kurds do Turks a big favour   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHGVz5iEY_Q

Hahaha

Of course they do!!

Because, if we dont learn how to live with others, the stubborness will leave us, Turks, only  Sogut and Domanic.

"Sheikh Sait rebellion did not have anything with any foreign powers. Not only Sheikh Sait rebellion, almost none of them had anything to do with foreigners. These lies were told by the state and most of us believed them. "

Didnt I already provide you proof that the perteprators of şeyh sait rebellion were the same squad that were assembled by the british in kürt teali? and that kürt teali is mentioned by the british intelligence as something that is formed to stand as s destructive force agains the ottoman empire? you know very well that he british fueled every single country and land in arabia and middle east and conquered the ottoman empire piece by piece. and so they did the same up till musul/kerkük and hatay. ottomans fought them and armenia in the east with kazım karabekir.

"The state decieved all of us. The biggest betrayel will be(or is) felt by  the ones who believed with their whole heart."

my sources are all foreign.

"Your second president of Turkey told you that Turks did not find any evidence to connect Sheikh Sait rebellion to  British!"

thought you said the state deceived and betrayed us?

"There is no need to go on further this."

first you said that the şeh sait rebellion was the result of outlawing of kurdish. but actually the proof that you claim (şark ıslahat) is done AFTER the şeyh sait rebellion. you lose more and more credibility in my eyes.

"(Only evidence about this are a few catalogs sent to Sheikh Said from some arm dealers of the UK. So what? A few greedy arm dealers wanted to sell weapons to Sheikh Said. They would sell arms to even satan as long as they get paid)."

during 1920s this is more than enough proof and reason where the grand independant weapon dealing comapnies didnt exist yet. you cannot conclude history with todays conditions. you need to study them in their own conditions. an exampe to this can be given by the russian weapon smuggle to turkey during independence war. the weapon smuggle didnt start until the moskova agreement, when the goals of russia and turkey had become common goals against the british and the french. the weapon transfer to turkey was seen as a serious offence by the british. during a world war you dont sell weapons to both countries. every country gives its wepons to its ally countries since theres a shortage in weapons. weapon production and trade were all governmental at those times.

"Calipha back to S Arabia? I have to give the credit to your correction. You are right. Turkey has never returned the caliphate back , just abolished it.  But however, it does not change the fact that abolishing Caliphate was one of the reasons for the rebellion."

it does. you made it sound like the calphate being taken away from the kurds who were under the rule of ottoman empire and given to arabs without their consulation and as if that caused a disturbence. its not. şeyh sait was a hardcore Islamist. he wasnt about nationalism.

"The words  Kurd and Kurdistan were banned in March 1924 as well as Kurdish language in schools."  

i dont see something like that even in your so called link to the şark ıslahat planı.

"in 1925  famous ´sark islahat plani´ (http://nedir.net/sark-islahat-plani.html) comes along. And after that anybody speaking Kurdish would pay a penalty fee for each word.  This is the fact."

i said give source. your link is.. just a link. doesnt cite to any official document. actually i asked you on purpose since there is not actual historical validity of the contents of şark ıslahat planı. its a pop culture kurdish nationalist thing, claimed by several popularist autors and columnists.

there is however a historical document called the lozan agreement:

PROTECTION OF MINORITIES.
ARTICLE 37.

Turkey undertakes that the stipulations contained in Articles 38 to 44 shall be recognised as fundamental laws, and that no law, no regulation, nor official action shall conflict or interfere with these stipulations, nor shall any law, regulation, nor official action prevail over them.

ARTICLE 38.

The Turkish Government undertakes to assure full and complete protection of life and liberty to ali inhabitants of Turkey without distinction of birth, nationality, language, race or religion.

All inhabitants of Turkey shall be entitled to free exercise, whether in public or private, of any creed, religion or belief, the observance of which shall not be incompatible with public order and good morals

link

that article was added in by the turkish delegate btw

"You can check these with all historians. You can not change these things."

oh believe me this conversation has taken place many times before. youre not the first one to fall for this delusion.

"Kenan Evren is a spring chicken as far as assimilation policies are concerned."

he is the first one.

"Living with less lies is always better."

than stop lying.

if you look at this link which shows the ottoman empires collapse history you will see that in every agreement and state of aggression you will see the the rivals of the ottoman empire demanding rights of minorities again and again, bringing this on the table in every single agreement. minority minority minority. no this is not a new thing you are right. the foreign agitation of the minorities in the ottoman empire has been going on for a really long time.

"I. Dünya Savaşı sonunda yapılan anlaşmalar ve barışın korunmasına veya uzun bir dönem sürdürülebilmesi için kurulan Milletler Cemiyeti, işlevinin büyük bir kısmını da ulus devletlerin bütünlüğü üzerine geliştirmiştir. Bununla beraber 1920 yılından sonra, Avrupa devletleri, kendi aralarında akraba devlet konumunda olmaları nedeniyle, birbirlerinin topraklarında yaşayan azınlıkların haklarının korunması yönünde ikili anlaşmalar yapmışlardır. Yapılan bu anlaşmaların görünen yüzü, azınlıkların hak ve hukuklarının korunması olsa da esas sebep azınlıkların, diğer bir devletin ulus devlet sistemini zedelemeye yönelik faaliyetlerde bulunulmasının önlenmesi olarak değerlendirilmiştir. Bununla beraber, I. Dünya Savaşı sonrası galip devletlerin yaptığı anlaşmalara ilâve edilen azınlıklar ile ilgili düzenlemeler ile 1920 sonrası ikili bazda azınlıkların korunmasına yönelik yapılan anlaşmalar; Avrupa bazında ilk defa “Azınlık Koruma Rejimi”ni ortaya çıkarmıştır."

At the outbreak of the First World War Lawrence was a university post-graduate researcher who had for years travelled extensively within the Ottoman Empire provinces of the Levant (Transjordan and Palestine) and Mesopotamia (Syria and Iraq) under his own name. As such he had become known to the Ottoman Interior Ministry authorities and their German technical advisors, travelling over the German-designed, built, and financed railways during the course of his research.^[18]

The Arab Bureau of Britain´s Foreign Office conceived a campaign of internal insurgency against the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East. The Arab Bureau had long felt it likely that a campaign instigated and financed by outside powers, supporting the breakaway-minded tribes and regional challengers to the Turkish government´s centralised rule of their empire, would pay great dividends in the diversion of effort that would be needed to meet such a challenge. The Arab Bureau had recognised the strategic value of what is today called the "asymmetry" of such conflict. The Ottoman authorities would have to devote from a hundred to a thousand times the resources to contain the threat of such an internal rebellion compared to the Allies´ cost of sponsoring it.

With his first-hand knowledge of Syria, the Levant, and Mesopotamia (not to mention having already worked as a part-time civilian army intelligence officer), on his formal enlistment in 1914 Lawrence was posted to Cairo on the Intelligence Staff of the GOC Middle East.^[19] The British government in Egypt sent Lawrence to work with the Hashemite forces in the Arabian Hejaz in October 1916.^[20]

During the war, Lawrence fought with Arab irregular troops under the command of Emir Faisal, a son of Sherif Hussein of Mecca, in extended guerrilla operations against the armed forces of the Ottoman Empire. Lawrence obtained assistance from the Royal Navy to turn back an Ottoman attack on Yenbu in December 1916.^[20] Lawrence´s major contribution to the revolt was convincing the Arab leaders (Faisal and Abdullah) to co-ordinate their actions in support of British strategy. He persuaded the Arabs not to make a frontal assault on the Ottoman stronghold in Medina but allowed the Turkish army to tie up troops in the city garrison. The Arabs were then free to direct most of their attention to the Turks´ weak point, the Hejaz railway that supplied the garrison. This vastly expanded the battlefield and tied up even more Ottoman troops, who were then forced to protect the railway and repair the constant damage. Lawrence developed a close relationship with Faisal, whose Arab Northern Army was to become the main beneficiary of British aid.^[21]

lawrence

here is an interview with apo by m. ali birand where apo says he received logistic and mnoetary support from foreign countries (also wipes his eyes with the same paper that he wiped his nose)

here is the newscast in the israeli government tv channel that shows israeli agents training pkk about the usage of anti aircraft

so please stop this very well known fact about pkk not being a foreign element. what you call as truth is a lie itself. i can come up with thousands of sources about this because its not a hidden thing.

I dont want to go over again and again.

You event do NOT know Sark islahat Plani. We discussed it zillion years ago.

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_29206

http://www.bianet.org/bianet/siyaset/107183-27-mayis-kurtler-ve-sark-islahat-plani-kararnamesi

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.aspx?aType=RadikalYazar&articleid=952102&yazar=ceng%ddz%20%c7andar&date=30.08.2009&categoryid=97

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.aspx?aType=RadikalYazar&ArticleID=1104843

14. Maddesini (sadeleştirilmiş Türkçeyle) aktaralım: “Aslen Türk olup Kürtlüğe yenilmeye başlayan Malatya, Elaziz, Diyarbakır, Bitlis, Van, Muş, Urfa, Ergani, Hozat, Erciş, Adilcevaz, Ahlat, Palu, Çarsancak, Çemişkezek, Ovacık, Hısnımansur, Behisni, Hekimhan, Birecik, Çermik vilayet ve kaza merkezlerinde, hükümet ve belediye dairelerinde ve diğer kurum ve kuruluşlarda, okullarda, çarşı ve pazarlarda, Türkçeden başka dil kullananlar, hükümet ve belediyenin emirlerine muhalefet etmek ve direnmek suçundan cezalandırılacaktır.

Lozan Agreement and Kurds?

In Lozan Kurds never ever considered as minority. If they were it would be a different ball game.

Sheikh Sait rebellion was started some nationalists Kurds. And they had nothing to do with the Brits. There is no relation what so ever!! What you are saying that ´they belonged to the same squad and the squad was established by the brits´. God.. The entire jon Turks movements were formed in London and Paris. Entire Ittihak ve Terakki was formed in Europe and had some sort of backing from the UK and France. were they all agents?

You can keep believing every single lie the state told you such as "Kurds are actually mountain Turks" etc. Nothing stops you personaly. But majority of Turks and Kurds dont believe them anymore.

And I also want to warn you about the language and words you are using. Getting more and more aggressive. Getting more and more provocative.

They are not foreign elements.

They are Kurds mainly from Turkey.

Are there still people in Turkey believing that PKK was established by the CIA or British MI6?

Geez.. This is 2013!!

We lost 40.00 to 50.000 people in this war!! People´s language was banned. The names of people´s villages town were changed.. 0ver 3000 villages emptied. Millions of Kurds had to leave their villages. Yet our kurds are still ready to die, still over a million people are chanting Ocalan´s name!!

Still you are able to believe the craps of your lovely dictator Kenan Evren?

As if you have been living in a completely different universe!!

SOURCE. I ask ou for sources. all you keep giving me is a few broken links of text and your discussion that has taken place whatever zillion years ago. what, you guys are all academicians? your words are golden?

just a squad?? you said yourself that they have supported them with weapons.

yong turks operated in europe because ottoman empire was in europe at that time! are you even thinking? this is like saying atatürk was greek because he was born in thesselanoki! young turks opened an outpost in france AFTER they got formed.

and no, ittihat ve terakki was not found in europe:

İttihat ve Terakki, 19. yüzyıl sonunda Osmanlı İmparatorluğu’nun içinde bulunduğu bunalımdan kurtulması için Kanun-ı Esasî’nin yeniden yürürlüğe konmasını isteyen öğrenciler tarafından 1889´da Askeri Tıbbiye Mektebi´nde İttihad-ı Osmanî Cemiyeti adlı gizli bir örgüt olarak kuruldu. Daha sonra İttihat ve Terakki Cemiyeti adını alacak örgüt, aynı devirde kurulmuş irili ufaklı diğer pek çok örgütle birleşerek Osmanlı coğrafyasının en güçlü teşkilatı haline geldi.

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0ttihat_ve_Terakki

you can keep giving me false accusations of thinking "kurds to be mountain turks" but i never said that. you are drawing a straw man argument. where did you see me saying anything close to "kurds dont exist"?? please stop making up stuff.

my offensive language? look at yourself getting more and more angry because you cannot keep up an argument without false statements that you cannot prove. i havent aid anything insulting towards you until you called me a liar. you are projecting. another sign of a losing argument.

if you dont know history dont talk about it. i never said anything like kurds dont exist or denied the oppression of kurds. i just hate fake self-declared experts about the oh-great-kurdish-oppression who synchronise kurds with pkk. if 5 million people in this country were armed fighters there wouldnt be a stone over stone.

and your empty threats and warnings about my language are pointless. what are you gonna do, block me?

what kenan evren? o-o my links are of apo, birand and israeli news reporter whom i dont know the name of. do you want me to come up with more links like these?

Be my guest

There are many links that Apo is picking up his nose for easy and cheap satisfaction for some people.

But bring them on

I am not angry at all..

But if you just tell anything like liar or dont talk about it type of arguments, I will respond with the same level.

I never called you liar. All I said was if we live with less lies it is better. That itself  is not for you personally.

Mountain Turks? Well of course you never said that. But your generals or the people who told you lies about Sheikh Sait rebellion, did. They tried to write a ´false´ history. They keep feeding people these lies. (Hopefully we will see less lies about the history. Look at the official version of Dersim for example and look at what heppened. where is the suppressing the rebellion and where is the reality of gassing women and childeren in caves)

There is no evidence, not a single one to prove that Sheikh Sait rebellion was something to do with foreigners. The proof, is that only a catatalog. was there an arm shipment? NO. did they catch any british weapons? NO?(you can go and get a catalog as well, it wont make you a British agent)

What do you have as a proof? No proof here!!

But there is your second president´s words. Are you calling him liar? Are you calling Inonu  as british agents too?

Young Turk movements started in Paris, London etc. They had offices there. They had publications there. Just finding a catalog in a rebel base (god knows how that catalog got there either. We all know how the army fabricates the things. We almost read daily in the papers) is making you believe that the whole rebellion was a british plot, but all young Turks forming their associations in western capitals is not enough for you.

About the Sark Islahat Plani.

We are not going to discuss about this anymore after this moment. There are many book mentioning Sark Islahat Plani. Almost all historians agree on that. Infact, no one is denying it.

There is no point of denying it anyway. It was denied and denied and denied. where is it going to end.

Pkk and the Kurds. That is another wrong info and lie, we Turks, have been fed by the state that "PKK dont have any supports from the Kurds". PKK´s main source is Kurdish people.  They know that those PKK members fought for Kurds and their rights. They died for it. They are their sons/relatives. Kurds will never abandon PKK. That is the reason why, now, Turkish republic is negotiating  with the leader of them.

But it is a good thing that at least we are discussing.

That is how the truth comes out.

Do you think "others" know how to live with Turks?  

Şunları uçakla gönderelim, nereye gideceklerse. Bırakacakları silahları bilet parasına sayarız.

Uçağa silahla binilmeyeceğini herkes biliyor; silahlarını bıraktılar diye ele güne rezil olmasınlar.

If someone asks we, Turks in disapora,  "if I know how to live with Brits/Grmans etc", my answer would be, ´NO and what are you going to do about it?"

No one has the authority to ask that question to me as long as I am paying my taxes, respecting the others and respecting the law.

So my advice will be forget about how great your nation, I am  turk, I am a kurd, we are turks  blah blah type of rethorics. If you can call yourself a goot teacher, a successful engineer etc will be better. Of course If you are ready to call yourself a good citizen of free, equal, democratic country, will be the best.

Your Germans friends already have found the solution. They dont go into useless discussions..........They simply try to burn them, in the most cowardly way.

Yes.

Their racists/´German ulusalcilar´ are acting that way.

But do not worry we are fighters not quitters..

Sen ulusalcı, milliyetci ve ırkcı kelimelerini aynı anlamda kullanan bir aptalsın...benim esas sorumun cevabını, yani "ulusalcılara küfredenlerin kendilerinin ne olabileceği hakkında" da hiç bir şey bilmiyorsun.

You have to remove this post..

You have no right to call the word stupid if you dont agree with people´s opinion.

I dont think you can have opinions...can you ?

I already have and you know it very well.. And you also know that I dont need to refer insulting words to defend them.

Will you remove your post and apologize or you rather turn everything like a slang match like a school boy when you feel you are loosing?

"When in Rome do as the Romans do" is a saying very much quoted but not necessarily right.

From now on you will always get only insults from me, unless you start acting like an intelligent human being. You may oppose my opinions, but not in dirty hate cliches somebody had you memorize.

If you dont like my rules, stay out of my threads. The way you are now honestly disgusts me.

What do you suggest ?

We start buning some Romans in İstanbul too?

Ok lets see it..

No rules at all...

If you dont like people putting their aideas into your posts you WONT POST.

if you can not handle the truth, if you can not handle loosing, dont play it..

If you dont know how to swim, what the hell you are doing on the tree!!

If Romans asks me that way, the response will be always that way.

The answer is formed by the rudeness of the question.

It is in different context anyway

How about my idea that you sound like an idiot. My freedom of expression does not cover that ?

I dont think you know anything about freedom of exression.. Your rudeness is not covered in freedom of expression I am afraid.

Freedom of Exression is NOT a right you CAN GIVE or take away.

You should apologize!!

Yours is always freedom of expression and mine is rudeness, eh ?

You need some French help here, boy !

Of course it is..

As long as you can not contain your rudeness when you face the ideas against you and start acting like a school boy, it will always be!!

This thread has been locked due to name calling/rudeness.