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Correct sentence structure
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| 1. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 01:12 pm |
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Am I right in thinking that without exception all correctly formed Türkçe sentences must end with either a verb or an interrogative particle associated with the verb?
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| 2. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:12 pm |
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What you have said is correct for regular turkish sentences. Turkish seems to distract itself with details first and later comes to the main point, namely verb. However to end with a verb isn't always necessary for a sentence to be correct.
Cyrano, Aslan'ı kırbaçladı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Cyrano kırbaçladı Aslan'ı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Kırbaçladı Aslan'ı Cyrano. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
All are correct.
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| 3. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:23 pm |
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Quoting cyrano: What you have said is correct for regular turkish sentences. Turkish seems to distract itself with details first and later comes to the main point, namely verb. However to end with a verb isn't always necessary for a sentence to be correct.
Cyrano, Aslan'ı kırbaçladı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Cyrano kırbaçladı Aslan'ı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Kırbaçladı Aslan'ı Cyrano. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
All are correct. |
Is that wishful thinking  
Does the sentence structure only work if the verb relates to somthing happening from one object to another object?
Would the following be correct???
Bugün çalışmak lazım - today it is necessary to work
Bugün lazım çalışmak
Çalışmak lazım bugün
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| 4. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:29 pm |
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Quoting bod: Quoting cyrano: What you have said is correct for regular turkish sentences. Turkish seems to distract itself with details first and later comes to the main point, namely verb. However to end with a verb isn't always necessary for a sentence to be correct.
Cyrano, Aslan'ı kırbaçladı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Cyrano kırbaçladı Aslan'ı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Kırbaçladı Aslan'ı Cyrano. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
All are correct. |
Is that wishful thinking
Does the sentence structure only work if the verb relates to somthing happening from one object to another object?
Would the following be correct???
Bugün çalışmak lazım - today it is necessary to work
Bugün lazım çalışmak
Çalışmak lazım bugün |
Bod, all the sentences above are not only correct grammatically, but also true, fact in reality!
And, yes, yours are also correct, though the second one is too weak in meaning; but still it is meaningful.
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| 5. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:39 pm |
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"bugün lazım çalışmak" is too strange! I am not sure, let's ask to erdinç
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| 6. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:43 pm |
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I'd bet my head that the correct version is "Bugün çalışmam lazım. Is the -mak/-mek also possible with lazım? :-S
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| 7. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:46 pm |
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Quoting Daydreamer: I'd bet my head that the correct version is "Bugün çalışmam lazım. Is the -mak/-mek also possible with lazım? :-S |
Yes - the full infinitive (-mek/-mak) is used with lazım.
This is why I picked this particular example 
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| 8. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:47 pm |
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Quoting Daydreamer: I'd bet my head that the correct version is "Bugün çalışmam lazım. Is the -mak/-mek also possible with lazım? :-S |
You said very important point:
Bugün çalışmak lazım
This is necessary for everyone
Bugün çalışmam lazım
This is a necessity just for me!
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| 9. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:51 pm |
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Oh, now I see the difference! Thanks
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| 10. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:54 pm |
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Quoting caliptrix: Quoting Daydreamer: I'd bet my head that the correct version is "Bugün çalışmam lazım. Is the -mak/-mek also possible with lazım? :-S |
You said very important point:
Bugün çalışmak lazım
This is necessary for everyone
Bugün çalışmam lazım
This is a necessity just for me! |
Ah!
That might just answer a question in another thread
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| 11. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:57 pm |
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Quoting caliptrix: "bugün lazım çalışmak" is too strange! I am not sure, let's ask to erdinç |
When you come across such an expression, for example, in a poem, just try to ask Erdinç if you have got it correctly. I am sure he would help you understand it.
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| 12. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 02:59 pm |
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Quoting cyrano: Quoting caliptrix: "bugün lazım çalışmak" is too strange! I am not sure, let's ask to erdinç |
When you come across such an expression, for example, in a poem, just try to ask Erdinç if you have got it correctly. I am sure he would help you understand it. |
Erdinç is not the only person here who speaks fluent Turkish!!!
At least I hope not
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| 13. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 03:08 pm |
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Quoting bod: Quoting cyrano: Quoting caliptrix: "bugün lazım çalışmak" is too strange! I am not sure, let's ask to erdinç |
When you come across such an expression, for example, in a poem, just try to ask Erdinç if you have got it correctly. I am sure he would help you understand it. |
Erdinç is not the only person here who speaks fluent Turkish!!!
At least I hope not |
I was kidding
I think bugün lazım çalışmak is too strange practically. But it may be ok for grammar, I am not a teacher, so i referred him.
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| 14. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 03:14 pm |
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Right now I am only interested in language that I can use practically......I have too mch to try and cram in during the next three weeks without worrying about things of literary interest only :-S
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| 15. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 04:20 pm |
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Quoting cyrano:
Cyrano, Aslan'ı kırbaçladı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Cyrano kırbaçladı Aslan'ı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Kırbaçladı Aslan'ı Cyrano. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
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There are always small nuances when word order changes. Here is a pdf file on this issue:
http://www.citebase.org/fulltext?format=application%2Fpdf&identifier=oai%3AarXiv.org%3Acmp-lg%2F9605008
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| 16. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 04:28 pm |
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Yes "lazım çalışmak" is not a usual word order. I can imagine it in a poem but not elsewhere.
" Lazım " (needed) is the predicate and it takes the objects as gitmek, gitmem, gitmen etc. and the object comes before the predicate for "lazım".
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| 17. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 06:10 pm |
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Quoting cyrano: What you have said is correct for regular turkish sentences. Turkish seems to distract itself with details first and later comes to the main point, namely verb. However to end with a verb isn't always necessary for a sentence to be correct.
Cyrano, Aslan kırbaçladı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Cyrano kırbaçladı Aslan. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Kırbaçladı Aslan Cyrano. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
All are correct. |
...oh no, that is not correct...this is much closer to reality:
Aslan, Cyrano kırbaçladı. = Aslan whipped Cyrano.
Aslan kırbaçladı Cyrano. = Aslan whipped Cyrano.
Kırbaçladı Cyrano Aslan. = Aslan whipped Cyrano.
Ehi! 
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| 18. |
26 Jul 2006 Wed 07:28 pm |
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Quoting bod: Am I right in thinking that without exception all correctly formed Türkçe sentences must end with either a verb or an interrogative particle associated with the verb? |
This is not quite right. It is possible to build sentences without putting the verb to the end. It is not that the verb must go to the end. It can be somewhere else. But, yes the regular structure is like this:
Subject + Object + Predicate.
This is the basic structure. The predicate can be a verb or a noun or adjective. Unlike English we don't have the verb "to be" but we do have noun sentences (isim cümlesi).
In fact, in Turkish sentences are devided into two groups according their predicate: Verb sentences and noun sentences.
Gerçekten de, Türkçede cümleler yüklemi bakımından ikiye ayrılır: Fiil cümlesi ve isim cümlesi.
In this content adjectives fall into the second category (noun sentences).
This is a noun sentence:
"Hava çok güzel"
It doesn't have a verb. It is noun sentence. It has a predicate (güzel) which is a noun or adjective.
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| 19. |
27 Jul 2006 Thu 12:34 pm |
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Quoting erdinc: Quoting cyrano:
Cyrano, Aslan'ı kırbaçladı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Cyrano kırbaçladı Aslan'ı. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
Kırbaçladı Aslan'ı Cyrano. = Cyrano whipped Aslan.
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There are always small nuances when word order changes. Here is a pdf file on this issue:
http://www.citebase.org/fulltext?format=application%2Fpdf&identifier=oai%3AarXiv.org%3Acmp-lg%2F9605008
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WoW Erdinç - you certainly manage to find some technical linguistic articles!!!
Not exactly bedtime reading
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| 20. |
27 Jul 2006 Thu 12:41 pm |
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Quoting erdinc: Quoting bod: Am I right in thinking that without exception all correctly formed Türkçe sentences must end with either a verb or an interrogative particle associated with the verb? |
This is not quite right. It is possible to build sentences without putting the verb to the end. It is not that the verb must go to the end. It can be somewhere else. But, yes the regular structure is like this:
Subject + Object + Predicate.
This is the basic structure. The predicate can be a verb or a noun or adjective. Unlike English we don't have the verb "to be" but we do have noun sentences (isim cümlesi).
In fact, in Turkish sentences are devided into two groups according their predicate: Verb sentences and noun sentences. |
Going back to a sentence earlier in this thread:
Bugün çalışmak lazım
What is the predictate - is it lazım or is it çalışmak lazım?
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| 21. |
27 Jul 2006 Thu 05:30 pm |
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Quoting bod: Going back to a sentence earlier in this thread:
Bugün çalışmak lazım
What is the predictate - is it lazım or is it çalışmak lazım? |
Greetings Bod,
This is a noun sentence. The predicate in noun sentences is either a noun or from the noun familiy (adjective, pronoun, adverb, particle, conjunction, verbal noun, verbal adjective).
In this sentence the predicate is "lazım". We need to ask questions to the predicate to find the subject.
In verb sentences we ask the questions "who does?" or "what does?" to the predicate to find the subject.
Since this is a noun sentence we ask different questions.
In noun sentences we ask the questions "who is?" or "what is?".
Who is needed? What is needed?
-Çalışmak.
"Çalışmak" is the subject.
"Bugün" is complement.
So, yes, this time the order is different than usual:
Complement + Subject + Predicate
"Özne isim cümlelerinde oluşa konu olan, fiil cümlelerinde yapan, eden veya yaptıran unsurdur."
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