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Vowel harmony when there are no vowels!
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1.       bod
5999 posts
 18 Sep 2006 Mon 09:44 pm

If a suffix is added to a 'word' with no vowels, what form does the suffix take as there are no vowels to determine the form!

For example:
MSN'ım - MSN'im - MSN'um - MSN'üm
which is correct?

2.       kai
0 posts
 18 Sep 2006 Mon 10:09 pm

Turkish alphabet consists of 29 letters - 8 vowels and 21 consonant
Each letter has exactly one associated sound which never changes.
Three letters of the English alphabet are missing in the Turkish alphabet.
Q-q
W-w
X-x
There are six additional characters not found in the English alphabet.
Ç-ç
Ğ-ğ
I-ı
İ-i
Ö-ö
Ş-ş
Ü-ü

The letters of Turkish alphabet and the sounds associated with these are in the following table...
Letter Pronunciation
A, a like the a in car
B, b like the b in bet
C, c like the g in gender
Ç, ç like the ch in chance
D, d like the d in debt
E, e like the e in less
F, f like the f in felony
G, g like the g in game
Ğ, ğ this is a very weak sound, not pronouncing at all will be ok
H, h like the h in hello
I, ı like the e in halted
İ, i like the ee in keen
J, j like the ge in garage
K, k like the k in kelly
L, l like the l in lamb
M, m like the m in man
N, n like the n in neighbor
O, o like the a in ball
Ö, ö like the u in urge
P, p like the p in pen
R, r like the r in rent
S, s like the s in send
Ş, ş like the sh in shed
T, t like the t in tennis
U, u like the oo in good
Ü, ü like the u in nude
V, v like the v in vent
Y, y like the y in yes
Z, z like the z in zen

I hope this helps you

3.       Elisa
0 posts
 18 Sep 2006 Mon 10:19 pm

Quoting bod:

If a suffix is added to a 'word' with no vowels, what form does the suffix take as there are no vowels to determine the form!

For example:
MSN'ım - MSN'im - MSN'um - MSN'üm
which is correct?



You have to listen to the sound of the last vowel you hear. In MSN it's "e", so you put MSN'im.

4.       CANLI
5084 posts
 18 Sep 2006 Mon 10:20 pm

Quoting bod:

If a suffix is added to a 'word' with no vowels, what form does the suffix take as there are no vowels to determine the form!

For example:
MSN'ım - MSN'im - MSN'um - MSN'üm
which is correct?



İ haven't met a Türk söz till now with no vowel,but again my knowledge is not that much

Never the less,MSN word consider a foreigner word,and every foreigner word we treat it mostly as a light voice

Like Saat.... we say Saatler, not saatlar,
Harf...harfler, and not harflar

So i guess we can limit MSN in 2 voices not 4
it maybe either İ or Ü, but i don't know which too :-S

5.       CANLI
5084 posts
 18 Sep 2006 Mon 10:23 pm

Quoting Elisa:

Quoting bod:

If a suffix is added to a 'word' with no vowels, what form does the suffix take as there are no vowels to determine the form!

For example:
MSN'ım - MSN'im - MSN'um - MSN'üm
which is correct?



You have to listen to the sound of the last vowel you hear. In MSN it's "e", so you put MSN'im.



What do you mean last vowel Elisa ?
Where is that vowel ?

Or you mean pronouncing of the N is light starting with e ? :-S

6.       Elisa
0 posts
 18 Sep 2006 Mon 10:26 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting Elisa:

Quoting bod:

If a suffix is added to a 'word' with no vowels, what form does the suffix take as there are no vowels to determine the form!

For example:
MSN'ım - MSN'im - MSN'um - MSN'üm
which is correct?



You have to listen to the sound of the last vowel you hear. In MSN it's "e", so you put MSN'im.



What do you mean last vowel Elisa ?
Where is that vowel ?

Or you mean pronouncing of the N is light starting with e ? :-S



Yes, I mean when pronouncing. You say "eM eS eN", so the last sound is "e", hence the harmony with -im.

7.       CANLI
5084 posts
 18 Sep 2006 Mon 10:30 pm

Thx Elisa,got you


İ love Türkçe,its logical and easy,the hard part is only to understand the logic ,, lol

8.       Elisa
0 posts
 18 Sep 2006 Mon 10:37 pm

Quoting CANLI:

İ love Türkçe,its logical and easy,the hard part is only to understand the logic ,, lol



You just have to format and reset your brain to the Turkish language logic

But I get your point though.. :-S

9.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 18 Sep 2006 Mon 10:55 pm

I think, it depends on how you pronounce the word which is not Turkish. As you wrote; "MSN" is not Turkish, but how will you pronounce it? It is a special name like "Jacob", not like "pencil". So, if Jacob is German, you should pronounce it "yakob"; if Amerikan, "jay-coup" or depends on how Jacob prefers. But you never pronounce "pencil" as what you prefer, like "pen-jill" in Turkish

MSN pronounced "em es en" on all over the world, so we assume that we pronounce it same in Turkey too: "emesen". If we agree with the pronounciation, then we can go on with suffixes.

As pronounciation in Turkish:
emesen+(i)m=emesenim
as you see we added "-im", so we should write:
MSN'im

By the way, some people in Turkey pronounce it "mesene" (I don't judge them, maybe wrong but let me show you how they add this suffix)

As pronounciation in Turkish:
mesene+(i)m=mesenem
as you see, we added just "-m", so we write:
MSN'm

If you pronounce MSN another type, you may add this suffix in another case, like "-ım","-um","-üm"(but i dont think this)lollollol

10.       qdemir
813 posts
 18 Sep 2006 Mon 11:52 pm

Even though some Turkish people have a tendency to pronounce MSN as em-es-en that's wrong. The correct pronunciation should be as me-se-ne. Not any English person pronounces TRT (Turkish Radio Television) as te-re-te, he does as ti-ar-ti as it is compatible with English fonetics.

It is therefore the wovel in any suffix attached to msn should harmonize with the wovel "e".

11.       Elisa
0 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 12:26 am

Quoting qdemir:

Even though some Turkish people have a tendency to pronounce MSN as em-es-en that's wrong. The correct pronunciation should be as me-se-ne. Not any English person pronounces TRT (Turkish Radio Television) as te-re-te, he does as ti-ar-ti as it is compatible with English fonetics.

It is therefore the wovel in any suffix attached to msn should harmonize with the wovel "e".



Of course, according to Turkish spelling rules, MSN should be pronounced as "MeSeNe". And yes, I totally agree with you on the pronounciation of TRT in English/Turkish.
But I still have to meet the first Turkish person who talks about "MeSeNe" instead of "eMeSeN"..
Then again, I've only met a tiny part of your nation until now

12.       deer
166 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 12:39 am

Quoting kai:

Turkish alphabet consists of 29 letters - 8 vowels and 21 consonant

I hope this helps you




Teşekkür ederım - you certainly helped me

13.       bod
5999 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 12:54 am

Quoting deer:

Quoting kai:

Turkish alphabet consists of 29 letters - 8 vowels and 21 consonant

I hope this helps you




Teşekkür ederım - you certainly helped me



Well - it might have been helpful.......
But it did nothing to answer my question

Additionally kai, you list the Turkish alphabet but exclude "â" - can you explain this omission please?

14.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 01:15 am

"â" is not a new letter, just "a" with ^ a signal. not like "ö". ö is a new letter, different from "o", but "â" is not different from "a".

15.       CANLI
5084 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 01:44 am

â is just a light a, which used with foreign words too,because the â sound is not in the Türk alphabet

Even i don't have it in my keyboard :-S

Can any have Turkish keyboard help me here please ?

Where is the letter â in the Turkish keyboard ?

16.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 01:55 am

Quoting CANLI:

â is just a light a, which used with foreign words too,because the â sound is not in the Türk alphabet

Even i don't have it in my keyboard :-S

Can any have Turkish keyboard help me here please ?

Where is the letter â in the Turkish keyboard ?



As you say, not a new letter...
You can write it easily shift+3 and then "a".

17.       CANLI
5084 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 02:00 am

You call that easily ?? lol

İ thought there is a button like Ç and Ö

â,woo hooo,it worked, thanks caliptrix

18.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 02:52 am

Quoting CANLI:

You call that easily ?? lol

İ thought there is a button like Ç and Ö

â,woo hooo,it worked, thanks caliptrix


Rica ederim.
Kolay gelsin.

19.       aslan2
507 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 07:27 am

Quoting caliptrix:

Quoting CANLI:

â is just a light a, which used with foreign words too,because the â sound is not in the Türk alphabet

Even i don't have it in my keyboard :-S

Can any have Turkish keyboard help me here please ?

Where is the letter â in the Turkish keyboard ?



As you say, not a new letter...
You can write it easily shift+3 and then "a".


It works for i, o, u and e as well.
î
ô
û
ê

20.       CANLI
5084 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 11:14 am

Quoting aslan2:

Quoting caliptrix:

Quoting CANLI:

â is just a light a, which used with foreign words too,because the â sound is not in the Türk alphabet

Even i don't have it in my keyboard :-S

Can any have Turkish keyboard help me here please ?

Where is the letter â in the Turkish keyboard ?



As you say, not a new letter...
You can write it easily shift+3 and then "a".


It works for i, o, u and e as well.
î
ô
û
ê



Do you use those letters Türkçede too ?

21.       aslan2
507 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 12:26 pm

Quoting CANLI:


It works for i, o, u and e as well.
î
ô
û
ê

Do you use those letters Türkçede too ?



û and î are used with Arabic words, ô and ê not.

example: mahkûm (prisoner), millî, medenî, ahlakî, iktisadî

But nowadays nobody cares about ^ so they might as well be written as mahkum, milli, medeni, ahlaki, iktisadi etc.

Older people usually care about it but the younger don't.

22.       CANLI
5084 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 12:29 pm

you mean it should be written this way with all arabic words ? using this ^ ?

23.       aslan2
507 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 12:35 pm

Quoting CANLI:

you mean it should be written this way with all arabic words ? using this ^ ?


According to TDK yes. Usually Arabic î suffix is a long syllable. When it is long, it should be written as î. But as I said a lot of people do not bother themselves writing it correctly.

24.       CANLI
5084 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 12:45 pm

Ohhh,i see,thx

Then we should write saat for example like this sâât,

Btw,is this TDK official site for the türk söz we can depend on it ?

25.       aslan2
507 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 12:58 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Ohhh,i see,thx

Then we should write saat for example like this sâât,

Btw,is this TDK official site for the türk söz we can depend on it ?



Saat is saat. sâât is not correct.

But there are some similar words when it makes sense to use it.

. = short syllable
- = long one

saat (..)

adet (..) -- number of something (quantity)
âdet (-.) -- custom

hala (..) -- aunt (sister of father)
hâlâ (--) -- still

Yes TDK is the ultimate authority for this kind of things.

26.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 01:20 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Ohhh,i see,thx

Then we should write saat for example like this sâât,

Btw,is this TDK official site for the türk söz we can depend on it ?



I think something was misunderstood...
^ is used for long syllabes or lighter vocals than normal.
Originally,in Turkish, there is no long syllabel.

"millî" the second syllabel must be pronounced long, but all Turks know its pronounciation, so we don't use "^" always.

If it is necessary to emphesize that the syllabel is longer than normal, then I prefer to use. I saw many people who don't know the stress and pronounciation, so I think these ^s should be used.

The second usage is to make the vowel lighter.
hala and hâlâ
"aunt" and "still"

If you can understand easily that in the sentence, which one is wanted to say, you may not use:
Hala aynı işte çalışıyorum.
In this sentence, it cannot mean "aunt", because it has no suffix, so it is not object of the sentence. by the way, subject is "Ben"(I), because "çalışıyorum" refers to "me/I". For this reason, "hala" in this sentence must mean "still".

But:
Hala çalışıyor

This may mean both of them:
1) The aunt is working.
2) He is still working.

And you should make this clear if you mean the second one:
Hâlâ çalışıyor

But as I said, the meaning is generally clear, so we don't use ^s.


27.       CANLI
5084 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 01:36 pm

Ahh,anladım, çok tşk

btw, how can i say , 'i see' Türkçede

As,to say, ohh i see,i understand,something like that

28.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 19 Sep 2006 Tue 02:01 pm

anladım

29.       bod
5999 posts
 21 Sep 2006 Thu 12:34 am

Quoting CANLI:

Even i don't have it in my keyboard :-S



I have written my own keyboard layout with all the Türkçe characters........if you want to make use of it feel free to download it from here

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