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Turkish State Brothels
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1.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 09:36 pm

I was AMAZED to read about this recently! Not only are they legal, but they are government owned!! Apparently they look after their prostitutes extremely well - they have to undergo medical examinations on a weekly basis.

My question is - in a country that is, say, at least 90% muslim, who are the customers? Turkish News says that they have managed to curb forced prostitution because Turkish men were happy to report it - therefore I assume it is not just tourists using them

A quote from a few years ago made me laugh :-
'I've been very surprised,' said Marielle Lindstrom, head of the IOM in Turkey. 'We haven't noticed this anywhere in Europe. Turkish men seem to have an old-fashioned view of women. They don't mind using prostitutes, but they want the woman to be doing this willingly. If she's found not to be doing it willingly ... it affects their pride.' lol lol lol
The Independent

2.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 10:22 pm

Are you trying to attack turkish men from different angle aenigma?
lol
Answer to your question:
Of course 99% customers are muslim Turks.
I doubt foreigners go there at all.

3.       Trudy
7887 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 10:29 pm

Sorry Aenigma, I don't see the problem at all. Aren't in 'Christian' countries the customers mostly males of which many 'true' believers who go to church every Sunday? Aren't in almost every country the government the biggest pimps of all? Why should Turkey be an exception?

4.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 10:38 pm

Actually it is not "another dig" at Turkey! I am honestly amazed and surprised, bearing in mind that prostitution is punishable by death in some muslim countries...

I dont think you can compare the two Trudy - in the UK, only 3% of the population go to church and consider themselves religious, but I guess we are not "open minded" enough to have legalised brothels!

5.       Trudy
7887 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 10:41 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Actually it is not "another dig" at Turkey! I am honestly amazed and surprised, bearing in mind that prostitution is punishable by death in some muslim countries...

I dont think you can compare the two Trudy - in the UK, only 3% of the population go to church and consider themselves religious, but I guess we are not "open minded" enough to have legalised brothels!


Turkey is NOT an Islamic state! (At least not in the way Saoudi Arabia, Malaysia, Iran, Yemen and others are).

36 million registered as Roman Catholic or Anglican out of 60 million, I think is a little more than 3%! (source wikipedia.nl)

6.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 10:47 pm

Quoting Trudy:

Turkey is NOT an Islamic state! (At least not in the way Saoudi Arabia, Malaysia, Iran, Yemen and others are).

36 million registered as Roman Catholic or Anglican out of 60 million, I think is a little more than 3%! (source wikipedia.nl)



Of course Turkey is not an Islamic State!!! However, there is no denying that religion is a way of life in Turkey.

In England, as I said, the figures for people attending church is 3% - however if you ask anyone their religion on a form they will state "Church of England" or "Catholic".

The only time 97% of the population go to church is for weddings, funerals and christenings!!

I really didn't want an argument, I just found it very enlightening!!

7.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 10:55 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:


I really didn't want an argument, I just found it very enlightening!!



Thats a compliment! lol! well this was like this for years actually! and this was something like a job you know... as they have to have some papers and checks peridically to be able to do this job... or whatever...

8.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 10:58 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:



Of course Turkey is not an Islamic State!!! However, there is no denying that religion is a way of life in Turkey.


I am not sure it is entirely correct. Or at least it was not the case.
However, there is a huge push to make religion a way of life in Turkey, specially by this government. It is the recent battle right now!

9.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 11:03 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

I am not sure it is entirely correct. Or at least it was not the case.




So in Turkey you hardly notice Ramadan eh? There are hardly any mosques? Hardly anyone visits them?

Just recently since the new government eh?

10.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 11:15 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:



My question is - in a country that is, say, at least 90% muslim,


no, CANLI would proudly say 99% muslim :-S

11.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 11:18 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting thehandsom:

I am not sure it is entirely correct. Or at least it was not the case.




So in Turkey you hardly notice Ramadan eh? There are hardly any mosques? Hardly anyone visits them?

Just recently since the new government eh?


hmmm very strange

12.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 11:18 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

I was AMAZED to read about this recently! Not only are they legal, but they are government owned!! Apparently they look after their prostitutes extremely well - they have to undergo medical examinations on a weekly basis.

My question is - in a country that is, say, at least 90% muslim, who are the customers? Turkish News says that they have managed to curb forced prostitution because Turkish men were happy to report it - therefore I assume it is not just tourists using them

A quote from a few years ago made me laugh :-
'I've been very surprised,' said Marielle Lindstrom, head of the IOM in Turkey. 'We haven't noticed this anywhere in Europe. Turkish men seem to have an old-fashioned view of women. They don't mind using prostitutes, but they want the woman to be doing this willingly. If she's found not to be doing it willingly ... it affects their pride.' lol lol lol
The Independent



a very good point!

13.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 11:20 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:



The only time 97% of the population go to church is for weddings, funerals and christenings!!



and christmas!

14.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 11:53 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting thehandsom:

I am not sure it is entirely correct. Or at least it was not the case.




So in Turkey you hardly notice Ramadan eh? There are hardly any mosques? Hardly anyone visits them?

Just recently since the new government eh?


You would not notice ramadan 20 years ago. But you do notice now! (last year when I was in Istanbul, we found a bit difficult to find a restaurant which would serve us raki during ramadan). About the mosques, you are absolutely right about the number. It is unbelivably high (waste of money for a developing country).
However, although 99% call themselves muslims, but only 8% wants sheriah. 60 percent will say religion is quite important to them.
I think that represent a fluctuation about this matter, when you look at the years and draw a graph.
The question is how suddenly people started to 'discover' the religion? And what happened during last 20 years in Turkey?
And also you can question about how strong beliefs are in Turkey too. Definately it is not the same islam as in saudi arabia. It is kind of softened version of it. More tolerant I would say. Alchol consumption is very high for example which is strictly forbidden (but all my relatives drink their rakis every night, all bars and meyhanes are full)
You would see many mini skirt wearing beautiful girls in summer. They are all in that 99%.
So what I am trying to say that islam is different in Turkey then what you know 'islam in pakistan'.
Ah..going back to subject:
The men visit brothels, they are in that 99% too.





15.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 11 Nov 2007 Sun 11:57 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting thehandsom:

I am not sure it is entirely correct. Or at least it was not the case.




So in Turkey you hardly notice Ramadan eh? There are hardly any mosques? Hardly anyone visits them?

Just recently since the new government eh?


You would not notice ramadan 20 years ago. But you do notice now! (last year when I was in Istanbul, we found a bit difficult to find a restaurant which would serve us raki during ramadan). About the mosques, you are absolutely right about the number. It is unbelivably high (waste of money for a developing country).
However, although 99% call themselves muslims, but only 8% wants sheriah. 60 percent will say religion is quite important to them.
I think that represent a fluctuation about this matter, when you look at the years and draw a graph.
The question is how suddenly people started to 'discover' the religion? And what happened during last 20 years in Turkey?
And also you can question about how strong beliefs are in Turkey too. Definately it is not the same islam as in saudi arabia. It is kind of softened version of it. More tolerant I would say. Alchol consumption is very high for example which is strictly forbidden (but all my relatives drink their rakis every night, all bars and meyhanes are full)
You would see many mini skirt wearing beautiful girls in summer. They are all in that 99%.
So what I am trying to say that islam is different in Turkey then what you know 'islam in pakistan'.
Ah..going back to subject:
The men visit brothels, they are in that 99% too.


sad to hear this

16.       alameda
3499 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 12:15 am

The way some get around this is via a type of marriage called

Muta marriage

It is a controversial topic, but I've even seen some say if a condom was used, they really didn't do zinna. Same thing I heard once with a Saudi who was drinking scotch. His reply was that the Quran talked about wine.

It is a Shia practice and legal in Iran today, from what I've heard...

17.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 12:28 am

No, absolutely not....We already have them in sufficient numbers...no future in this field for foreign ladies...

18.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 12:40 am

Quoting alameda:

The way some get around this is via a type of marriage called

Muta marriage


it is a pure prostitution

19.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 12:52 am

Female Prostitution exists in almost all the societies, where -at least- some of the male population is not gay...

Anyone here says there is no prostitution in his/her country?

20.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 12:55 am

Quoting AlphaF:

Female Prostitution exists in almost all the societies, where -at least- some of the male population is not gay...

Anyone here says there is no prostitution in his/her country?


to your info
not all the countries have them legal.

21.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 12:57 am

and some religions forbid it unlike islam.

22.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:00 am

Is it freely allowed in Christianity or among Jews ?....enlighten us, pls...

23.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:01 am

Quoting AlphaF:

Is it freely allowed in Christianity or among Jews....enlighten us, pls...


both of these religions forbid it strongly!

24.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:01 am

Quoting AlphaF:

Is it freely allowed in Christianity or among Jews....enlighten us, pls...



Brothels are illegal in the UK.

25.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:02 am

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting AlphaF:

Is it freely allowed in Christianity or among Jews....enlighten us, pls...



Brothels are illegal in the UK.


They call them massage houses in the UK..lol lol

26.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:06 am

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting AlphaF:

Is it freely allowed in Christianity or among Jews....enlighten us, pls...



Brothels are illegal in the UK.


They call the massage houses in the UK..lol lol



They are really not so common Handsom (but then I don't know where you live ), of course there are prostitutes, but they are working illegally and so are the brothels.

27.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:10 am

Quoting AlphaF:

Female Prostitution exists in almost all the societies, where -at least- some of the male population is not gay...



There are very few gays in Turkey right? Thats because they all go abroad lol lol lol


http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1079381,00.html


"When Turkish Men Love Men
Most Turkish men celebrate soccer, not gay pride.
Homosexuality is taboo in Turkey. But in Germany, Turkish gays have more freedom. Language, however, sometimes creates problems.

Metin was married in Turkey. After nearly eight years, he got divorced because his wife didn’t understand him. Being gay played no role in the decision, he said. He didn’t realize that he loved men until he came to Germany. Now Metin is one of approximately 15,000 homosexuals with Turkish roots living in the country.

For this group of people, coming out is the biggest problem, Metin said: “I am active, but I don’t identify myself publicly as a gay man. For familial reasons, because in the Turkish community, gays are not held in high regard. For me it’s no problem, but my family would be sad.”

The rainbow flag, a symbol of gay pride, flies in front of Berlin city hall for the annual gay pride parade.Metin believes that German gays have it better because their families understand homosexuality as normal. He likes living in Germany. There are many more chances for gays, he believes. In Turkey, he would only be allowed to do a small portion of the things he can do in Germany.

In part, though, it remains a game of hide-and-seek. Turkish gays often prefer to stay in the immigrant scene and the majority of immigrants in Germany don’t come from the big Turkish cities, where there is more tolerance for people who live alternative lives. They mostly come from rural areas of Anatolia, where homosexuality is at best seen as a sickness.

Even though tolerance toward homosexuals has increased in the past years, people behave cautiously. It’s not difficult, however, for gay men with Turkish roots to meet people, said Metin. There are Web sites, parties and classified ads, for instance.

28.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:17 am

Quoting AEnigma III:


There are very few gays in Turkey right? Thats because they all go abroad lol lol lol


http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1079381,00.html


They are second generation Turks! born in Germany and ate lots of bacon.

29.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:17 am

There are plenty of free lance prostitutes working illegally here too...That is called liberal economy and free enterprise...

30.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:18 am

aenigma
this is all LIE, NOT TRUE!

31.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:18 am

Quoting AlphaF:

There are plenty of free lance prostitutes working illegaly here too...That is called liberal economy and free enterprise...



Male and female prostitutes? Or just female?

32.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:19 am

Quoting AlphaF:

No, absolutely not....We already have them in sufficient numbers...no future in this field for foreign ladies...


yeah
all the foreign ladies are prostitutes,
or all the prostitutes in turkey are foreign ladies!
a good point ! isnt it?

33.       vineyards
1954 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 02:15 am

It is true that there are many prostitutes in Turkey and not only Turkish ones but there are also Russian, Moldovian, Romanian and Ukrainian prostitutes too. Prostitiution is a very profitable business; they earn a lot and spend a lot. If a prostitute is doing business in a better part of the city she often drives a car much more expensive than most and lives in an apartment larger and better than most.

There is also a strong gay community in my country. I do have some gay friends and sometimes I accompany them when they go to gay bars. (They appreciate that so much.) They have very sophisticated ways to communicate with one another as most of them constantly change partners.

A favourite gathering place for gays in Istanbul is Neo Bar. They are very active. They organize many events to attract the gay population of the city making it possible for them to get to know one another and stand together.

I have neither paid for sex nor am I thinking of but I believe this sector does help society in some ways. As long as legal and healthy and done voluntarily I see nothing wrong in that.

34.       Seraph
162 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 02:30 am

Quoting vineyards:

It is true that there are many prostitutes in Turkey and not only Turkish ones but there are also Russian, Moldovian, Romanian and Ukrainian prostitutes too. Prostitiution is a very profitable business; they earn a lot and spend a lot. If a prostitute is doing business in a better part of the city she often drives a car much more expensive than most and lives in an apartment larger and better than most.

There is also a strong gay community in my country. I do have some gay friends and sometimes I accompany them when they go to gay bars. (They appreciate that so much.) They have very sophisticated ways to communicate with one another as most of them constantly change partners.

A favourite gathering place for gays in Istanbul is Neo Bar. They are very active. They organize many events to attract the gay population of the city making it possible for them to get to know one another and stand together.

I have neither paid for sex nor am I thinking of but I believe this sector does help society in some ways. As long as legal and healthy and done voluntarily I see nothing wrong in that.



To me it's sad because how do you explain to your future spouse you were with prostitue at past? (of course I know the answer will most likely be that what man would say it), but still...If I ever found out that a man I was with was with a prostitue I would lose all respect...How do the women in Turkey feel about this? I'm sure the men don't care, but what of the women? I know that also it is known that fathers , brother and friends, will take thier virgin son/brother/friend to prostitue sometimes to let him become a "man" how common is that? Really, it's not good to have it legal or illigal...catch 22

35.       vineyards
1954 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 02:59 am

If you are married you should not cheat your wife whether it be with a prostitute or with some other woman.

Prostitution is a reality of life. They have always existed and they have a right to do so. Just imagine how many prostitutes there are in the world and what they would do if their profession were banned.

Fire arms are also freely available to those wishing to have one. Are all gun owners murderers? (Although I am in favour of banning fire arms, I can't say they all are).

Nevertheless, there are certain points in how Turks approach sexuality that can be criticized. Young boys are usually pushed by an older friend or sometimes (though rare) by a family member to go and have their first experience in a brothel. For example, that never happened to me. It is not an iron clad rule. This is probably more common in poorer quarters where people have little chance to have any sort of relationship with the other sex. Is it wrong? Yes, it is wrong is inseparable from a certain class of corruption that is present in all societies.

Here is a question to you: what do you think about the demonizing of prostitutes and gays? Do you approve of their being excommunicated from society? There are many prostitutes with excellent personalities and much more power to endure the hardships of life compared to an average person. If they work for a brothel, they pay their tax to the last penny. Why should they be regarded just like extra terrestrials? We should at least greet them in the street and support them to help them hold a place in society.

36.       valeria
304 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 03:57 am

I live in north America, but i was born in the ukraine. I go bach there very couple of years. i watch russian tv. Where i come from it is widely known that there are lots of russian, ukrainian prostitutes in Turkey. Some of these go there willingly and knowingly. But most of the girls there get tricked. They are hired to work in hotels, in restaurants, as receptionists. But upon arrival, their paperwork, passports are taken away. There is no way to get back, neother is there money to do so. They are working girls and there is nowhere to go and no where to hide. There is shows about this all the time and is widely known, but girls go there to make money, thinking their contract is different, or just not knowing iwhat is waiting for them. these are not the prostitutes that drive the nice cars, and own nice appartments.

37.       vineyards
1954 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 05:27 am

It is not voluntary prostitution. Therefore it is not legal in the first place. Even to know their individual stories and to offer them a way out you need to communicate to them. I am not singing praises for prostitutes. I am just trying to draw your attention to a multi facated drama they are going through. All that you have so far mentioned is also a result of the lack of sympathy and communication between them and society.

38.       Trudy
7887 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 07:36 am

Quoting Seraph:

Quoting vineyards:

It is true that there are many prostitutes in Turkey and not only Turkish ones but there are also Russian, Moldovian, Romanian and Ukrainian prostitutes too. Prostitiution is a very profitable business; they earn a lot and spend a lot. If a prostitute is doing business in a better part of the city she often drives a car much more expensive than most and lives in an apartment larger and better than most.

There is also a strong gay community in my country. I do have some gay friends and sometimes I accompany them when they go to gay bars. (They appreciate that so much.) They have very sophisticated ways to communicate with one another as most of them constantly change partners.

A favourite gathering place for gays in Istanbul is Neo Bar. They are very active. They organize many events to attract the gay population of the city making it possible for them to get to know one another and stand together.

I have neither paid for sex nor am I thinking of but I believe this sector does help society in some ways. As long as legal and healthy and done voluntarily I see nothing wrong in that.



To me it's sad because how do you explain to your future spouse you were with prostitue at past? (of course I know the answer will most likely be that what man would say it), but still...If I ever found out that a man I was with was with a prostitue I would lose all respect...How do the women in Turkey feel about this? I'm sure the men don't care, but what of the women? I know that also it is known that fathers , brother and friends, will take thier virgin son/brother/friend to prostitue sometimes to let him become a "man" how common is that? Really, it's not good to have it legal or illigal...catch 22



Again I don't see the problem. Of course, when you are having a relationship you should be both loyal. A man with whom I have a relationship who goes to a prostitute will find his belongings in the garden, but the same will happen when he would have 'just a girlfriend / affair'. However, what he did before our relationship is not so important. I can't see the difference between a man who had several girlfriends (for fun, experience) or one who has been to a legal prostitute. If he would have chosen the service of a woman who was forced into this work, yes, that would make a difference for me, because I think that type of prostitution is the modern variant of slavery. I don't want to deal with that.

And Vineyards, I agree with you. It isn't something we all should praise, jobs must not be at the employment offices but when in free choice people pay their taxes, so why excommunicate them?

39.       longinotti1
1090 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 08:58 am

Tamam Taman insanlar

(english)In the USA people who celebrate christmas say they are Christians. My wife and I had Turk Students as our guests in the USA. They want to visit a Mosque, but they only wanted to "drive by" and see it was there. Funny story, my wife say, lets go inside. SHE had to tell them to take there shoes off!

This kind religon(both christians and muslim) is harmless, more, not so much so.

My name is Italian and people assume I am Catholic. I am not Christian nor Muslim.

40.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 12:01 pm

Quoting vineyards:

It is true that there are many prostitutes in Turkey and not only Turkish ones but there are also Russian, Moldovian, Romanian and Ukrainian prostitutes too. Prostitiution is a very profitable business; they earn a lot and spend a lot. If a prostitute is doing business in a better part of the city she often drives a car much more expensive than most and lives in an apartment larger and better than most.

There is also a strong gay community in my country. I do have some gay friends and sometimes I accompany them when they go to gay bars. (They appreciate that so much.) They have very sophisticated ways to communicate with one another as most of them constantly change partners.



Yes I think most of europe has Eastern european prostitutes now - some willingly, some unwillingly. In fact I think Turkey has done more to reduce the unwilling ones than many other countries. However, there is a LOT of money still being made from eastern european sex slaves. A few men are very rich from it, and the girls are virtual prisoners.We had a wonderful drama/documentary broadcast recently about this subject in the UK. It was truly heartbreaking when you discover the facts.

You have surprised and delighted me with your attitude to gays Vineyards - however I think its a myth that they all want multiple casual partners .

41.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 12:15 pm

If you ever get a chance to watch, it's a heartbreaking and very well made TV flim about the sex traffic industry...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0419365/

42.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:21 pm

Quoting AEnigma III:

If you ever get a chance to watch, it's a heartbreaking and very well made TV flim about the sex traffic industry...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0419365/



horrible stories witnessed by those poor women, we hear often. the worse thing we still cant change the situation.
a lady whos a doctor was invited to her friends birthday, was drugged there, then was sold to a brothel in germany, for about a year she didnt know she was in germany, but finally escaped.

you cant change the situation until you have less and less customers. seems like it has its own potential market, that will never end.

43.       AEnigma III
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 01:27 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

you cant change the situation until you have less and less customers. seems like it has its own potential market, that will never end.



This is very true, and I think people actually still believe the sex traffic trade is a myth. People have said to me - why don't they try to escape? Why don't they just refuse to do it?

I think many people in the UK saw the real side of the industry just from watching this TV drama. It sounds silly, but sometimes people have to see the emotion, the brutality and see the reality of something from a dramatic angle before they can truly understand it.

I defy any man to watch this programme and then defend prostitution afterwards.

44.       alameda
3499 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 02:59 pm

Folks, you will not get rid of prostitution. It has been around longer than any of us, and will be around much longer than any of us. It's the law of supply and demand.

The poor people who are forced into the situation are the real tragedy. However, as hard as it may be for you to understand, there are some people who actually choose the profession and like it as it pays quite well.

I think the best thing is to figure out a way to control it, and the Turkish legal brothel seems to be a good compromise. Although they might not be legal in England, don't for a second think they don't exist. They are legal in Holland and Germany. The US state of Nevada has legal prostitution as well, and there has been efforts to legalize it in other parts of the USA.

I think the best thing is for the clients to be observant to the conditions of the establishment and on the look out for any signs of coercion. In order to know what to look for they need to be made aware of the signs of coercive sex trade. Then there are some who wouldn't mind or would actually enjoy that aspect.

One of the ways to help along this path would be to remove the stigma from the profession. The saddest thing is when there is a raid and the poor people who have been forced into the trade are branded as a "whore" and denied immigration status. They should be given sanctuary IMHO.

I did a little search and found this....

legal prostitution

45.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 03:46 pm

stealing, murdering and giving false witnesses, pedophilia were also among us long before we were born and these things wont stop either. so lets legalize them too.

folks, no problema, lets solve it out by tolerating and legalizing.

no one stated that if its illegal it means theresnt prostitution in those countries.
i feel sorry for nevada, for sweden, germany or holland.

making it legal, you are saying YES to women humiliation, you are saying YES to the sodomia.

46.       vineyards
1954 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 04:11 pm

What is your understanding of society femme? Do you consider society as a setting exclusively designed for people living up to certain norms? Society contains all sorts of people and it is not very fair to everyone to begin with.
There are crime and corruption in society because people that make up society are that way. If you cannot remove sources of crime and prevent people from becoming the victims of society, you cannot simply compensate for this by penalizing those who have nothing left to lose.

47.       Trudy
7887 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 07:26 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

stealing, murdering and giving false witnesses, pedophilia were also among us long before we were born and these things wont stop either. so lets legalize them too.

folks, no problema, lets solve it out by tolerating and legalizing.

no one stated that if its illegal it means theresnt prostitution in those countries.
i feel sorry for nevada, for sweden, germany or holland.

making it legal, you are saying YES to women humiliation, you are saying YES to the sodomia.



Don't feel sorry for us Dutch people, FF. Feel sorry for the women who are forced into sexual slavery (98% by males!), not for those who chose themselves this profession. And though you might not believe it, there are many proud prostitutes with a legal job, paying taxes, having a personal accountant. There is even a union for sex workers!

Comparing prostitutes who chose themselves this profession with sodomia sounds very biblical (and judging / conservative) in my ears.

48.       alameda
3499 posts
 12 Nov 2007 Mon 07:35 pm

I think the solution to stopping sex trade trafficking is in training in how to recognize when a person is willing or forced.

Of course, the ladies HAVE to appear to encourage customers, but they are forced to do that. Learning to recognize who is there by choice, and who is not, is the key.

There have been numerous cases of "clients" freeing the captives.

49.       CANLI
5084 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 01:07 am

sad !

Sad for the title
Sad for women behalf,
Sad for men behalf too
And sad for posts who try to make it norm and legal!

İts humiliating,TOTALLY humiliating for all parts,both women and men too !

50.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 06:13 pm

heck, yesterday i was writing a reply post to vino, between cooking and washing, but when it was time to submit the message the site was unavailable. all my 2h writing was wasted

51.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 06:18 pm

Quoting vineyards:

What is your understanding of society femme? Do you consider society as a setting exclusively designed for people living up to certain norms? Society contains all sorts of people and it is not very fair to everyone to begin with.
There are crime and corruption in society because people that make up society are that way. If you cannot remove sources of crime and prevent people from becoming the victims of society, you cannot simply compensate for this by penalizing those who have nothing left to lose.


i put high morales above the feelings.
so there will be NO to crime, NO to corruption, NO to prostitution etc etc.

52.       catwoman
8933 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 06:24 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting vineyards:

What is your understanding of society femme? Do you consider society as a setting exclusively designed for people living up to certain norms? Society contains all sorts of people and it is not very fair to everyone to begin with.
There are crime and corruption in society because people that make up society are that way. If you cannot remove sources of crime and prevent people from becoming the victims of society, you cannot simply compensate for this by penalizing those who have nothing left to lose.


i put high morales above the feelings.
so there will be NO to crime, NO to corruption, NO to prostitution etc etc.


As much as I agree with Femme, Vineyards presents what the reality is about people and he's also right.

53.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 06:30 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting vineyards:

What is your understanding of society femme? Do you consider society as a setting exclusively designed for people living up to certain norms? Society contains all sorts of people and it is not very fair to everyone to begin with.
There are crime and corruption in society because people that make up society are that way. If you cannot remove sources of crime and prevent people from becoming the victims of society, you cannot simply compensate for this by penalizing those who have nothing left to lose.


i put high morales above the feelings.
so there will be NO to crime, NO to corruption, NO to prostitution etc etc.


As much as I agree with Femme, Vineyards presents what the reality is about people and he's also right.


i know the reality, but you cant solve the problem letting it have legal. you should be aware what consequences will come.
you sure know that prostitution can also smuggle the pedophilia. then there you will have pedopihlians tomorrow comeing up for their rights.
you make a step, but sure they will ask you for further steps.

54.       catwoman
8933 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 06:37 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

i know the reality, but you cant solve the problem letting it have legal. you should be aware what consequences will come.
you sure know that prostitution can also smuggle the pedophilia. then there you will have pedopihlians tomorrow comeing up for their rights.
you make a step, but sure they will ask you for further steps.


It is a very complicated, tough issue.. no doubt. Things like pedophilia should be SEVERELY punished in any shape and form, at any time, and no matter what!
However when it comes to prostitution, it's better to have it in healthy, regulated conditions then in the black market (at least in some countries). It's better for the women above all!
As for prostitution being immoral - I think it's degrading for women, but if the woman has healthy "rules" under which she does it and both people do it consensually, then you can't impose your morality on them. Of course if the guy cheats on his gf/wife, I'd kill him gladly!
By healthy "rules" I mean - no violence, no acts the woman doesn't want herself, no coercion, her partners having to be checked for STDs, all the money is hers.... and such.

55.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 06:50 pm

POPE visiting Turkia, met and hailed by reporters at the airport.

Reporter : What do you think of brothels in Istanbul?

POPE (shocked) : Are there brothels in Istanbul?

Next day's headlines in most papers : First question POPE asked upon arrival is whether or not there are any brothels in Istanbul .................

56.       teaschip
3870 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 06:52 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting femme_fatal:

i know the reality, but you cant solve the problem letting it have legal. you should be aware what consequences will come.
you sure know that prostitution can also smuggle the pedophilia. then there you will have pedopihlians tomorrow comeing up for their rights.
you make a step, but sure they will ask you for further steps.


It is a very complicated, tough issue.. no doubt. Things like pedophilia should be SEVERELY punished in any shape and form, at any time, and no matter what!
However when it comes to prostitution, it's better to have it in healthy, regulated conditions then in the black market (at least in some countries). It's better for the women above all!
As for prostitution being immoral - I think it's degrading for women, but if the woman has healthy "rules" under which she does it and both people do it consensually, then you can't impose your morality on them. Of course if the guy cheats on his gf/wife, I'd kill him gladly!
By healthy "rules" I mean - no violence, no acts the woman doesn't want herself, no coercion, her partners having to be checked for STDs, all the money is hers.... and such.



I don't see how any prostitution can be healthy, it's just plain sick.....

57.       catwoman
8933 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 06:53 pm

Quoting teaschip1:

I don't see how any prostitution can be healthy, it's just plain sick.....


I didn't say prostitution is healthy!

58.       teaschip
3870 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 06:59 pm

Quote:

As for prostitution being immoral - I think it's degrading for women, but if the woman has healthy "rules" under which she does it and both people do it consensually, then you can't impose your morality on them. Of course if the guy cheats on his gf/wife, I'd kill him gladly!
By healthy "rules" I mean - no violence, no acts the woman doesn't want herself, no coercion, her partners having to be checked for STDs, all the money is hers.... and such.



Please then explain if I misunderstood something here..

59.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 07:02 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting femme_fatal:

i know the reality, but you cant solve the problem letting it have legal. you should be aware what consequences will come.
you sure know that prostitution can also smuggle the pedophilia. then there you will have pedopihlians tomorrow comeing up for their rights.
you make a step, but sure they will ask you for further steps.


It is a very complicated, tough issue.. no doubt. Things like pedophilia should be SEVERELY punished in any shape and form, at any time, and no matter what!
However when it comes to prostitution, it's better to have it in healthy, regulated conditions then in the black market (at least in some countries). It's better for the women above all!
As for prostitution being immoral - I think it's degrading for women, but if the woman has healthy "rules" under which she does it and both people do it consensually, then you can't impose your morality on them. Of course if the guy cheats on his gf/wife, I'd kill him gladly!
By healthy "rules" I mean - no violence, no acts the woman doesn't want herself, no coercion, her partners having to be checked for STDs, all the money is hers.... and such.


no, catwoman, we cant let the prostituion be legal and in any so called healthy forms.
it is a humilliation of a woman. where do you think porno comes?
its no way right, to accept it normal, or then goodbye healthy society.

60.       catwoman
8933 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 07:23 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

no, catwoman, we cant let the prostituion be legal and in any so called healthy forms.
it is a humilliation of a woman. where do you think porno come?
its no way right, to accept it normal, or then goodbye healthy society.


I would LOVE to abolish prostitution and make all porn disappear. I would be the first one to support that because I think that it hurts women incredibly.

You want a healthy society, but how? The only way is by allowing people to be free to do what they want to do (as long as it doesn't hurt anybody) and in that situation there will always be people who are willing to do anything for money. As much as I can't possibly grasp why anybody would ever do this kind of stuff...
It is impossible to eliminate evil from the world is what I'm saying. Prostitution is very bad, but by making it illegal, you're not making it disappear, but you're pushing it into the black market where women are treated million times worse.

61.       teaschip
3870 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 07:59 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting femme_fatal:

no, catwoman, we cant let the prostituion be legal and in any so called healthy forms.
it is a humilliation of a woman. where do you think porno come?
its no way right, to accept it normal, or then goodbye healthy society.


I would LOVE to abolish prostitution and make all porn disappear. I would be the first one to support that because I think that it hurts women incredibly.

You want a healthy society, but how? The only way is by allowing people to be free to do what they want to do (as long as it doesn't hurt anybody) and in that situation there will always be people who are willing to do anything for money. As much as I can't possibly grasp why anybody would ever do this kind of stuff...
It is impossible to eliminate evil from the world is what I'm saying. Prostitution is very bad, but by making it illegal, you're not making it disappear, but you're pushing it into the black market where women are treated million times worse.



I hear what your saying, however because something is illegal to minimize the exposure & have it regulated we should make it legal? You believe this would control the violence? How do you feel about drugs? Should we legalize this as well?

62.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:03 pm

If we lived in an ideal world, I guess we wouldn't need them. However, this does exist and there is definately a need for them to be regulated and that these women be monitored in some way for health risks to the general public. I think legalizing them is a necessary evil. Even if you find somthing morally repugnant, ie prostitution, abortion, ect...that does not mean everyone will stop doing it. It is up to us as individuals to hold ourselves personally accountable for our own beliefs. It is the duty of government agencies (in this case the CDC - Center for Disease Control or Department of Health) to protect its people...sometimes from themselves.

63.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:17 pm

i think the only way minimising evil is to invite them to live up to morales, i.e. to give them good education, to support our justice systems, to care for each other.
i mean it will never be ideal, but loosening the morales wont solve the problem.

just compare the generations: look at todays children, they are growing up with no morales, and they are the disaster!
they can easily kill, because they feel so, they feel some people annoying them, they come with guns or knives to schools. we starting to put our feelings "maybe so" ideas above the morales. and resulting into tragedies.

64.       catwoman
8933 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:31 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

i think the only way minimising evil is to invite them to live up to morales, i.e. to give them good education, to support our justice systems, to care for each other.
i mean it will never be ideal, but loosening the morales wont solve the problem.


I definitely think that improving the lives of women is one way to help out. If women had more economic advantages, were more independent, financially stable, educated, there would be significantly less of them willing to do something that is so degrading to them.

65.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:36 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting femme_fatal:

i think the only way minimising evil is to invite them to live up to morales, i.e. to give them good education, to support our justice systems, to care for each other.
i mean it will never be ideal, but loosening the morales wont solve the problem.


I definitely think that improving the lives of women is one way to help out. If women had more economic advantages, were more independent, financially stable, educated, there would be significantly less of them willing to do something that is so degrading to them.


oh, finally you ve got something that i agree with!
offffffff

66.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:41 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

i think the only way minimising evil is to invite them to live up to morales, i.e. to give them good education, to support our justice systems, to care for each other.
i mean it will never be ideal, but loosening the morales wont solve the problem.

just compare the generations: look at todays children, they are growing up with no morales, and they are the disaster!
they can easily kill, because they feel so, they feel some people annoying them, they come with guns or knives to schools. we starting to put our feelings "maybe so" ideas above the morales. and resulting into tragedies.



Point well taken Femme, but I think there is a saying that goes with this...the horse has already run out of the barn...what good will it do to close the door now?

67.       catwoman
8933 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:45 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

oh, finally you ve got something that i agree with!
offffffff


Why does that make you angry....?

68.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:48 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting femme_fatal:

oh, finally you ve got something that i agree with!
offffffff


Why does that make you angry....?


Femme takes great pride in being a professional antagonist.

69.       Trudy
7887 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:52 pm

Please understand me correct: I do NOT plea in favour of prostitution. And yes, if there is any kind of force in it, it is humiliating for women, then it should be forbidden and punished. However, if a woman herself choose to do this job, who are we with all our morality to say she is unmoral?

70.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:52 pm

Quoting Elisabeth:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting femme_fatal:

oh, finally you ve got something that i agree with!
offffffff


Why does that make you angry....?


Femme takes great pride in being a professional antagonist.


correct
tho i would prefer "pleasure" instead of "pride" (remenber? i hate pride)

71.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:54 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting femme_fatal:

oh, finally you ve got something that i agree with!
offffffff


Why does that make you angry....?



i cant be ALWAAAAAAAYS calm, can i? im not buddha!

72.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:55 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting Elisabeth:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting femme_fatal:

oh, finally you ve got something that i agree with!
offffffff


Why does that make you angry....?


Femme takes great pride in being a professional antagonist.


correct
tho i would prefer "pleasure" instead of "pride" (remenber? i hate pride)



Maybe that should be your motto, since you are a professional....NO PRIDE....ALL PLEASURE!

73.       catwoman
8933 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 08:58 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

tho i would prefer "pleasure" instead of "pride" (remenber? i hate pride)


lol lol lol

74.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 13 Nov 2007 Tue 09:01 pm

you two bed amerikans!

75.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 16 Nov 2007 Fri 01:14 pm

Quoting CANLI:

sad !

Sad for the title
Sad for women behalf,
Sad for men behalf too
And sad for posts who try to make it norm and legal!

İts humiliating,TOTALLY humiliating for all parts,both women and men too !



It is sad.Although the word sad sounds a bit like an euphemism here.
And I agree with all emotions this topic brings.
But unfortunately,the problem is as old as the human history dates back even to pagan times when nobody called that phenomena prostitution.This infamous”daughters of Babylon” and “summer welcomings”sex parties,not to mention sacred whores attributed to shrines.
It is humiliating as in case of sex traffic women are still treated as objects,as property of those who take adventage of human sexuality.If there was no demand for such service there would be no supply.
The demand still exists and drives this dirty business on,so will it ever be a solution found?
So many people considering themselves decent members of societies comdemn these women in public playing God,not even thinking about the reasons which led them to that profession.
Anyway,I just wonder what will you say about Swedish govermental project of offering sex for disabled people,who still have such demands but not possibilities.Is it humiliating???Or perhaps supportive?
Sweden has always been a pioneer as far as this aspect of human life goes.Cohibition,sexual education,now legalized sex service for handicapped....

76.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 17 Nov 2007 Sat 04:10 am

I think i need new glasses where is femme post i saw in the morning????not fair,guys,not fair!!!!!

77.       zettea
160 posts
 17 Nov 2007 Sat 07:01 am

astaghfirullah... it is sad.... what's happening to Muslims in Turkey gosh~

78.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 17 Nov 2007 Sat 11:58 am

Quoting kafesteki kus:

I think i need new glasses where is femme post i saw in the morning????not fair,guys,not fair!!!!!


they censor me

79.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 17 Nov 2007 Sat 12:20 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting kafesteki kus:

I think i need new glasses where is femme post i saw in the morning????not fair,guys,not fair!!!!!


they censor me


bcs of Sweden,I guess...

80.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 17 Nov 2007 Sat 12:32 pm

Quoting kafesteki kus:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting kafesteki kus:

I think i need new glasses where is femme post i saw in the morning????not fair,guys,not fair!!!!!


they censor me


bcs of Sweden,I guess...


oh, thas sure! i cant swear on sweden!

81.       catwoman
8933 posts
 20 Nov 2007 Tue 08:14 pm

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting femme_fatal:

i think the only way minimising evil is to invite them to live up to morales, i.e. to give them good education, to support our justice systems, to care for each other.
i mean it will never be ideal, but loosening the morales wont solve the problem.


I definitely think that improving the lives of women is one way to help out. If women had more economic advantages, were more independent, financially stable, educated, there would be significantly less of them willing to do something that is so degrading to them.


oh, finally you ve got something that i agree with!
offffffff



Andrea Dworkin about prostitution

82.       Umut_Umut
485 posts
 20 Nov 2007 Tue 08:26 pm

Whats your problem?

To learn Turkish or what?

83.       portokal
2516 posts
 20 Nov 2007 Tue 08:39 pm

if no one answers to the post above, i will give it a try later))))))))))))))))))

84.       femme_fatal
0 posts
 20 Nov 2007 Tue 09:32 pm

Quoting portokal:

if no one answers to the post above, i will give it a try later))))))))))))))))))


im getting impatient, porto. hurry up pls.

85.       teaschip
3870 posts
 21 Nov 2007 Wed 02:23 am

Um Um, please answer someone, anyone..

86.       kafesteki kus
0 posts
 21 Nov 2007 Wed 02:44 am

Quoting Umut_Umut:

Whats your problem?

To learn Turkish or what?


Hope_Hope!!!!The language is not sentences,grammar tenses ,chunks,pronouncation,idioms,etc...itself.It is a living part of the culture!

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