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Auschwitz of ´12 Eylul´
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1.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 15 Sep 2008 Mon 11:48 pm

When we argued about the roots of PKK, I mentioned several times : One of the reason we have the Kurdish problem and PKK was ´jail of Diyarbakir during 1980s´.
Here is a partial translation of an article on the subject:

Abas Çelik who was born in Mardin Kiziltepe, taken to custody from the village he was living in February 1981 by the soldiers. He was 16, he was the eldest son of Çelik family and he was was   a shepherd. As he never went to school he was talking in Turkish with a difficulty.
"Something happened, we did not know, they took me to Mardin army base". According to gendarme records he stayed in custody for 75 days. "they tortured me day and night. I was subjected to everything". What he means with ´everything´ that giving electric to his genitals, hanging from his arms to the ceiling, beating, falaka (beating the bottom of feet), inserting baton (150 people who happened to be in custody given written statements about these types)

"they took me to Diyarbakir from there, to the prosecuter!. Celik, after 75 days of custody, got arrested and sent to prison. he was accused of helping and harboring the organization. Much later as it was understood by the supreme court, there was no evidence in his file but 16 years old Celik spent 6.5 years as a prisoner. And there he saw the real torture which made him miss his days in custody. Without exception everyday in the jail were beatings with baton, falaka and torture.
"it is a big and thick baton. When they were hitting they were counting till 500..they were making us crawl  in sewage water..making us lick floors..they were dipping us into sewage including our heads from manholes..no water..they had a dog, they gave the water which was used to wash that dog´s head...sometimes they would not give food for 20 days..once a week, one bread..shared by 4 people"

When they were beating everybody in a line, a person died with brain hemorrhage , he says, celik who was in the same cell when a prisoner set himself a fire to protest..
Abas celik, who spent 2 freezing winter with a vest and pull up with no heating, was released in May 1986 with broken bones and visible torture marks.

We are trying to explain that ´12 Eylul/September´ who collected those shepherd from those plains and hosted them in layers of hell that even could not be imagined by Dante, created this dreadful war we are having right now.

Those shepherd who was taken from their villages ;smashed to bits by being pushed below the level of  human being; went through the torture chambers of diyarbakir prison that was much worse than  Guantanamo and Auschwitch and had power to walk when released, went up to mountains.

orig article in Turkish



* 12 Eylul is the name given to the regime after 12 September Coup D´Etat in Turkey.

2.       azade
1606 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 10:57 am

There is a collection of pictures of these torture victims somewhere on the net, but I can´t seem to find it now.

3.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 11:12 am

did those people get jailed and tortured  because they were Kurds or leftists?

 

Much more Turks got jailed, tortured, and killed during the coup, and these circumstances were not exclusive to Diyarbakir. all the leftists faced this situation regardless of the place they lived in or their race.

 

nice try thehandsom, but this is cheap pkk propaganda to say the least.

4.       azade
1606 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 11:41 am

What do you have to say about the fact that it even happened? {#lang_emotions_wtf}

5.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 12:05 pm

 

Quoting azade

What do you have to say about the fact that it even happened? {#lang_emotions_wtf}

 

 

 

what do you mean by "the fact that it even happened"?

 

6.       azade
1606 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 12:13 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

what do you mean by "the fact that it even happened"?

 

 That so many people were taken into custody without a valid reason and tortured, then later being attested and spending years behind bars in inhumane conditions and being tortured on a daily basis. Whether someone are PKK, MHP or your average civilian, they are still living persons. There is no way to justify it.

7.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 12:22 pm

 

Quoting azade

That so many people were taken into custody without a valid reason and tortured, then later being attested and spending years behind bars in inhumane conditions and being tortured on a daily basis. Whether someone are PKK, MHP or your average civilian, they are still living persons. There is no way to justify it.

 

who tried to justify it? what handsom is trying to say is that the government tortured the Kurds just because they were Kurds which is a cheap pkk lie. The government arrested, tortured and killed more Turks than Kurds during the coup. All the leftists faced such things in some way regardless of their race. There wasn`t even such a race conflict in 1980.

8.       azade
1606 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 12:42 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

who tried to justify it? what handsom is trying to say is that the government tortured the Kurds just because they were Kurds which is a cheap pkk lie. The government arrested, tortured and killed more Turks than Kurds during the coup. All the leftists faced such things in some way regardless of their race. There wasn`t even such a race conflict in 1980.

 

 That may be possible, I don´t know - do you have any documentation we can read?

But even if you think the intention of this thread is false, don´t you think it´s horrible that a government treated it´s citizens this way and even tries to cover it up?

9.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 12:53 pm

 

Quoting azade

That may be possible, I don´t know - do you have any documentation we can read?

But even if you think the intention of this thread is false, don´t you think it´s horrible that a government treated it´s citizens this way and even tries to cover it up?

 

I don`t think anybody tries to cover this up, not even the government itself. Even Kenan Evren who was the head general of the army and the president admits that they tortured people. You can find lots of books talking about what was going on in the jails.

10.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 01:19 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

who tried to justify it? what handsom is trying to say is that the government tortured the Kurds just because they were Kurds which is a cheap pkk lie. The government arrested, tortured and killed more Turks than Kurds during the coup. All the leftists faced such things in some way regardless of their race. There wasn`t even such a race conflict in 1980.

 

Jail of Diyarbakir was specially famous amongs the other ones during 1980´s.. The turture was almost double comparing to other jails.. (Diyarbakir jail was considered in worst 10 jails in the world btw)

I will check the cases and read some of the books again and tell you that they were DOUBLE turtured because they were KURDS or them being KURDS played a huge part for the level of torture they were subjected..

11.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 01:23 pm

 

Quoting azade

 That may be possible, I don´t know - do you have any documentation we can read?

But even if you think the intention of this thread is false, don´t you think it´s horrible that a government treated it´s citizens this way and even tries to cover it up?

 

As usual, they were tried to cover up of course..But the level of torture was so gigantic, they could not hide it.

Evren might be saying ´yes we tortured people´ then I would love to see him on trial and the other generals as well..

I am sure Tamikidakika will be next to me in the court room to watch that trial

12.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 01:37 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

Jail of Diyarbakir was specially famous amongs the other ones during 1980´s.. The turture was almost double comparing to other jails.. (Diyarbakir jail was considered in worst 10 jails in the world btw)

I will check the cases and read some of the books again and tell you that they were DOUBLE turtured because they were KURDS or them being KURDS played a huge part for the level of torture they were subjected..

 

{#lang_emotions_laugh_at}{#lang_emotions_laugh_at}Double tortured for being Kurdish??? how do they measure it{#lang_emotions_lol_fast}

 

come on handsom, you can do better than this. but I have to admit your posts today are TRIPLE fun.{#lang_emotions_lol}

13.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 02:51 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

{#lang_emotions_laugh_at}{#lang_emotions_laugh_at}Double tortured for being Kurdish??? how do they measure it{#lang_emotions_lol_fast}

 

come on handsom, you can do better than this. but I have to admit your posts today are TRIPLE fun.{#lang_emotions_lol}

 

Well..

As usual, you are trying to escape from the discussion by trying to pull  it some where else mate.lol

Because you have NO ANSWER..{#lang_emotions_lol_fast}

I am nominating you as "the TULIP of the day" for your "making fun" about these torture incidents..{#lang_emotions_flowers}

14.       catwoman
8933 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 04:03 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

I don`t think anybody tries to cover this up, not even the government itself. Even Kenan Evren who was the head general of the army and the president admits that they tortured people. You can find lots of books talking about what was going on in the jails.

 

This seems to be quite naive. {#lang_emotions_ninja}

15.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 04:25 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

Well..

As usual, you are trying to escape from the discussion by trying to pull  it some where else mate.lol

Because you have NO ANSWER..{#lang_emotions_lol_fast}

I am nominating you as "the TULIP of the day" for your "making fun" about these torture incidents..{#lang_emotions_flowers}

 eh, it`s you who doesn`t have a plausible answer. Just look at the argument you`re making. what you`re basically saying is; "the Kurds were double tortured while the Turks were tortured at a normal amount(measured in metric system{#lang_emotions_lol_fast}) . the source is; I will tell you later if I can find one."

 

anyone would make fun of this.

 

 

16.       armegon
1872 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 04:42 pm

12  Eylül & Auschwitz?? They are irrelevant, i think the thread title is exaggrated, a bad simile, one is part of a genocide, other one is a facist revolution(i think the one of the reason that create today´s government AKP). In "12 Eylül" ülkücü side used as a pawn, and the events started with Maraş incidents in 1978, target was Alevis, followed with the same incidents in Çorum. It is true that many people tortured during "12 Eylül" but as tamikidakika mentioned people who were tortured were mainly leftists labelled as communists, independent from race but also many ülkücü shared the same destiny. No need to say thehandsom´s thread is again biased, trying to justify PKK terrorism. 

17.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 04:50 pm

 

Quoting tamikidakika

 eh, it`s you who doesn`t have a plausible answer. Just look at the argument you`re making. what you`re basically saying is; "the Kurds were double tortured while the Turks were tortured at a normal amount(measured in metric system{#lang_emotions_lol_fast}) . the source is; I will tell you later if I can find one."

 

anyone would make fun of this.

I am elevating you status from ´tulip of the day´ to ´tulip of week´ lol

I never said that "I will tell you later if I can find one"..did I?

I have a very good book about what went on in that jail. (I will translate a few paragraphs for you)

When I read that I was ashamed of being a human being, ashamed of breathing the same air and sharing the same piece of land with those torturers.

Will you say that you are shamed of them too?

 

 

 

18.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 04:57 pm

 

Quoting armegon

12  Eylül & Auschwitz?? They are irrelevant, i think the thread title is exaggrated, a bad simile, one is part of a genocide, other one is a facist revolution(i think the one of the reason that create today´s government AKP). In "12 Eylül" ülkücü side used as a pawn, and the events started with Maraş incidents in 1978, target was Alevis, followed with the same incidents in Çorum. It is true that many people tortured during "12 Eylül" but as tamikidakika mentioned people who were tortured were mainly leftists labelled as communists, independent from race but also many ülkücü shared the same destiny. No need to say thehandsom´s thread is again biased, trying to justify PKK terrorism. 

 

Why is it biased?

It is just a translation from a newspaper ´radikal´!

And it is not only one writer (and me) thinks that way on this subject.

There are many many turkish articles, web sites, columns regarding Diyarbakir jail.

Sometimes I really think if you REALLY are  living in Turkey at all!!

 

 

19.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 05:00 pm

I am dissapointed about you guys..

I could except you could sideline yourselves with the main stream nationalism, but i would never expect that you would try to ´lessen´ the importance of these horrific tortures..

20.       armegon
1872 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 05:25 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

Why is it biased?

It is just a translation from a newspaper ´radikal´!

And it is not only one writer (and me) thinks that way on this subject.

There are many many turkish articles, web sites, columns regarding Diyarbakir jail.

Sometimes I really think if you REALLY are  living in Turkey at all!!

 

Why i need to rely on a columnist from Radikal? The events he mentioned most possibly true but gist of his writing is wrong so i do not agree, there are also many columnists, many articles who/which do not share the same same substances with him.

 

21.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 16 Sep 2008 Tue 06:21 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

I am dissapointed about you guys..

I could except you could sideline yourselves with the main stream nationalism, but i would never expect that you would try to ´lessen´ the importance of these horrific tortures..

 

 

no one denies the importance of these tortures, but when you try to "create" a Kurdish issue out of it, it just becomes irrelevant.

22.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 17 Sep 2008 Wed 01:14 am

As promised..

I have had look at the book I read years ago ..It is called Vahsetin Gunlugu-Diary of brutality- written by Mehdi Zana(PKK supporter)
Although he is a PKK supporter but his descriptions of tortures were verified by the others as well..So Mehdi Zana, being a PKK supporter does not make ´what went there´ a lesser crime.


The book is horrific..The details are graphic..It is starting from beating/torturing everybody while screaming ´there is no Kurd, you are not a Kurd, you are a Turk´ to intimidating/beating their visitors because they did not know how to speak Turkish (most of the prisoners begged their visitors not to come, because they did not want to be seen that low to their relatives) ; going on,  from asking ´are you Kurd or Turk?´ and beat them in either case to forcing them to memorize racist marching songs.
Forcing youngsters to engage sex to forcing them to eat live rats; dipping them into sewage and forcing them to drink swage water; tying them force them to bend down and insert lit cigarettes into their bums; Forcing them to respect dogs (they were forced to call a dog ´sir´ ) etc.. (some of the prisoners committed suicide by setting themselves on fire-using oil paints-some run and hit the concrete walls with their heads, some died in hunger strikes)

Anyway, I dont want to continue.

Lets see what Zana thought about his experience:  ´Diyarbakir  prison was converted into a place of savagery by the generals of 12 September in order to take the identities of Kurds and smash them. So that anybody, who had a little sympathy with kurdishness, would be intimidated and threatened.´
He says that´ those tortures made us realize what we are. we were kurds not mountain Turks. Kurdish struggle was pulled ahead for 20 years with Diyarbakir´
And he thanks The head of the army general K Evren ´we, Kurds, should put his pure gold statue in Diyarbakir. Even that statue would not be enough about what he did for our struggle´

the article is here (in Turkish) http://www.internethaber.com/author_article_detail.php?id=6853b     (turkish)
===============

Murat Belge: ´specially in that jail, somehow not in others but specially in Diyarbakir jail, they did tortures which ´just  listening´ would be enough to make people sleepless for days. (in others like Mamak, there were too But none of them could beat the tortures in Diyarbakir)
Now, in this society, if there is a primitive Kurdish nationalism which we dislike, the reason for that is the torture chamber called Diyarbakir prison´
http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=238973  (turkish)
==================================
In order to solve the Kurdish problem, we have to come to terms with first half of 1908s and have to face the barbarity of Diyarbakir prison. (This guy was a prisoner in that jail)

http://www.sabah.com.tr/safak.html  (turkish)

===========================

he describes Diyarbakir prison as ´a place for ethnic revenge´ and he thinks that the real reason for the barbarity was ethnic hatred.
he talks about ´the programme´ was designed for the kurds specially -so prison guards did not like to see non-kurds there-
....
He also gives an example..a boy..non political..taken in..prison guards forced the boy to pee on others..he refused and in the end he started to hit his head to the walls..and they left the boy alone..The guy joined PKK after that and got killed..(Mehmet Kalkan his name is)


http://www.taraf.com.tr/yazar.asp?mid=642 (erdal safak) (turkish)

==========================================

http://www.taraf.com.tr/haber.asp?id=16735 (turkish)
In this article (Nilgün Yalçindag a relative of a prisoner).
She tells a story about a an old Kurdish woman who wanted to visit his son in diyarbakir prison. Because Kurdish was not allowed, the old woman asked Nilgün Yalçindag repeatedly if she was saying the turkish words right..she was trying to memorise only four words frantically: ´Oglim bayramin kutli olsin´- my son I wish you a happy Bayram- (if she did not memorize those words she just had to look at her son´s eyes)

=================
http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=79191 (nese duzel) (turkish)
Selim Dindar..non pkk..happened to be in diyarbakir prison for 3 years.
After long description of tortures he answers a question: ´prison of Diyarbakir made people militants. 80% of them went to mountains to join PKK..it was very difficult to go back to normal life after being subjected to that savagery. They say -PKK really started in 1984- 1984 is the date when most of the prisoners were released´

Anyway, I am sure if you check most of the people who are interested in political science in Turkey, they will say the same thing..
What was done in Diyarbakir is  one of the reasons of PKK´s existance.

 

 

23.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 17 Sep 2008 Wed 01:42 pm

Nobody with clear thinking mind can deny the role of creating the PKK in the east and protecting its existance.

 

But these tortures can be seen only as a trig to collect their supporters not as a reason for its to be created.

24.       ciko
784 posts
 17 Sep 2008 Wed 02:10 pm

people in diyarbakir jail were 90 % kurds and yes they were being tortured just like other leftists in the rest of the country. but you dont want to understand what happened between 1980- 84 in that jail was one of the biggest reasons of PKK rebellion... and the other things happened between 1980-84 were to ban kurdish music and listening to it, to ban speaking kurdish in public places etc, to stop unionist activities in the east etc....

25.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 17 Sep 2008 Wed 04:42 pm

So PKK would give it to you when you have a free country around Diyarbakir?

 

Before this question, you can be rebel to the governors or make some actions to get your rights back after such tortures,ask for a change at government, but you cant ask for land and your own independence for it... so every ethnic group should ask for land... laz, greek, armenian etc... 

 

there is a part in north iraq which is claimed as Kurdish state... so you may move there... and have your better life there...

26.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 20 Sep 2008 Sat 04:23 am

 

Quoting SuiGeneris

So PKK would give it to you when you have a free country around Diyarbakir?

 

Before this question, you can be rebel to the governors or make some actions to get your rights back after such tortures,ask for a change at government, but you cant ask for land and your own independence for it... so every ethnic group should ask for land... laz, greek, armenian etc... 

 

there is a part in north iraq which is claimed as Kurdish state... so you may move there... and have your better life there...

 

well..

Of course, it is not only "the torture in Diyarbakir which happened years ago" is the reason for our Kurdish problem.

But the sheer  ignorant and intolerant mentality of us.

Just like this:

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=153641&bolum=103

 

..a student in the town of Aliağa in the province of İzmir was not allowed to read a poem at a ceremony opening the new school year because her name was Rojda, a well-known Kurdish name.

..

"The tolerance and positive approach afforded to British students is denied to a student just because of her name in her own country."..

..

but, as can be seen in the case of Rojda, the discrimination is still here.

 

 

 

27.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 20 Sep 2008 Sat 09:03 am

 

Quoting thehandsom

well..

Of course, it is not only "the torture in Diyarbakir which happened years ago" is the reason for our Kurdish problem.

But the sheer  ignorant and intolerant mentality of us.

Just like this:

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=153641&bolum=103

 

..a student in the town of Aliağa in the province of İzmir was not allowed to read a poem at a ceremony opening the new school year because her name was Rojda, a well-known Kurdish name.

..

"The tolerance and positive approach afforded to British students is denied to a student just because of her name in her own country."..

..

but, as can be seen in the case of Rojda, the discrimination is still here.

 

 

You know what the handsom, you cant blame a whole government for that "Rojda" issue just because of some idiots in the managing place in that school.

 

There are always people who will not be able to think in a healthy way and will always look to the life with their one way glasses...

 

For me there is no Kurding problem... according to the laws we are on equal positions! this is FACT! if on applying the rules some people have problems, you cant load those individual mistakes on whole country...

 

Yesterday it was on news that a group of people has caught the students after school and taught kurdish in the street, and you know what "your police" didnt do anything, as you were expecting to beat them all right?, but funny thing is, if they will learn kurdish or in kurdish language, how they will communicate with people in the west or north? as they will not learn turkish properly? This will bring later on that they want to have their own lands

 

 

This issue is not that big as you mention here all the time i am afraid its just the simple propaganda, but just a propaganda with no solutions.

 

 

 

On the other hand, i watched on news that in Kayseri a group was gonna make and record a documentary about anatolia and put byzantian flag over the Kayseri castle, some people on the street sees that and they try to shout and cry, get the flag down, today you put flag tomorrow you give the lands to west etc.

 

So as you see your people are not ready enough to think...

 

28.       azade
1606 posts
 20 Sep 2008 Sat 11:31 am

 

Quoting thehandsom

well..

Of course, it is not only "the torture in Diyarbakir which happened years ago" is the reason for our Kurdish problem.

But the sheer  ignorant and intolerant mentality of us.

Just like this:

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=153641&bolum=103

 

..a student in the town of Aliağa in the province of İzmir was not allowed to read a poem at a ceremony opening the new school year because her name was Rojda, a well-known Kurdish name.

..

"The tolerance and positive approach afforded to British students is denied to a student just because of her name in her own country."..

..

but, as can be seen in the case of Rojda, the discrimination is still here.

 

 

There is also this example: "Punishment for drawing with ´Kurdish´ colors"

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2006/12/16/guncel/gun03.html (turkish)

 

On that same note, the traffic light colors were changed to red, yellow and blue in the 90´es in Şirnak, but it caused so much chaos the govenor had to change it again {#lang_emotions_you_crazy}

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