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Muska Böreği
(16 Messages in 2 pages - View all)
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1.       bod
5999 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 10:38 pm

I have a packet of Muska Böreği that I bought recently. The instructions say:
Paketi açtıktan sonra 5 dk. havalandırarak dinlendiriniz
Am I right this means something like:
Allow to rest for 5 minutes after opening the packet?

Quick as you can because I want to cook them

2.       iluvhim
235 posts
 31 Jul 2006 Mon 11:05 pm

i would imagine so as the first bit means after the packet allow 5mins... so probably

3.       bod
5999 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 01:41 am

Quoting iluvhim:

i would imagine so as the first bit means after the packet allow 5mins... so probably



Can you explain the suffixes please?
I am not sure how açtıkdan means "after opening"

4.       CANLI
5084 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 01:56 am

Quoting bod:



Can you explain the suffixes please?
I am not sure how açtıkdan means "after opening"



açmak .... (tı ) of past tens (k) can i presume it is kişi eki for (biz ) then (tan) means from ?

Can it work this way,or have i went so far ?

Then it would be

Allow to rest 5 minuts later from we opened the packet ???

:-S

5.       erdinc
2151 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 03:14 am

No, it is the -dik suffix in açtıktan. Because the -dik suffix is a past tense participle it looks and sounds like simple past tense but it isn't. Simple past tense doesn't build nouns, adjectives or adverbs from verbs but its participle "-dik" does.

V-madan önce : before V-ing
V-dikten sonra : after V-ing

example:
gelmeden önce : before coming
geldikten sonra : after coming

Now, you might say, "OK, I understand that the -dik is the past participle and builds verbal adjectives or advebs but what is the "den"?

The "den" in gelmeden or the "ten" in geldikten is connected with the following word, sonra or önce.

In other words "-den önce" or "-den sonra" need to be understood as structure on its own.

-den önce : before something
-den sonra : after something

You can use these on any noun, including verbal nouns.

benden önce : before me
senden sonra : after you
yarından önce : before tomorrow
okuldan sonra : after school
gitmeden önce : before going
dinledikten sonra : after listening

This above is a typical example of the -dik suffix.

"açtıktan sonra", "gelmeden önce", "geldikten sonra", "geldiğin zaman", "dinlediğin zaman", "baktığın için", "sevdiğim için",...

All these are adverbial clauses. All have an adverb and a past tense participle. All verbs in these examples have the same -dik suffix. In some cases the -dik suffix changed to t version (according consonant harmony) and in some cases the k changed to ğ (according consonant mutation) but all have the same suffix.

6.       CANLI
5084 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 04:47 am

Quoting erdinc:

No, it is the -dik suffix in açtıktan. Because the -dik suffix is a past tense participle it looks and sounds like simple past tense but it isn't. Simple past tense doesn't build nouns, adjectives or adverbs from verbs but its participle "-dik" does.

V-madan önce : before V-ing
V-dikten sonra : after V-ing

example:
gelmeden önce : before coming
geldikten sonra : after coming

Now, you might say, "OK, I understand that the -dik is the past participle and builds verbal adjectives or advebs but what is the "den"?

The "den" in gelmeden or the "ten" in geldikten is connected with the following word, sonra or önce.

In other words "-den önce" or "-den sonra" need to be understood as structure on its own.

-den önce : before something
-den sonra : after something

You can use these on any noun, including verbal nouns.

benden önce : before me
senden sonra : after you
yarından önce : before tomorrow
okuldan sonra : after school
gitmeden önce : before going
dinledikten sonra : after listening

This above is a typical example of the -dik suffix.

"açtıktan sonra", "gelmeden önce", "geldikten sonra", "geldiğin zaman", "dinlediğin zaman", "baktığın için", "sevdiğim için",...

All these are adverbial clauses. All have an adverb and a past tense participle. All verbs in these examples have the same -dik suffix. In some cases the -dik suffix changed to t version (according consonant harmony) and in some cases the k changed to ğ (according consonant mutation) but all have the same suffix.



Ok,let me get this straight,

Tenses usually don't build nouns, adjectives or adverbs from verbs
but "-dik" does.

But all the same,when we added (dik) suffix to the verb

İt is still a verb and we can add the kişi eki to it right ?

But i found it taken İyelik Ekleri at winmekmak :-S

Why ??

And when we change it and add tan suffix,then we cann't add İyelik Ekleri ?? :-S

İt is a bit confusing me here

Generally, we say for example, okulum...my school

From my scholl... we say okulumdan ??? can it be ?

And if so,why there is no İyelik Ekleri in açtıktan then?? :-S :-S

7.       erdinc
2151 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 06:20 am

Quote:

But all the same,when we added (dik) suffix to the verb
It is still a verb and we can add the kişi eki to it right ?


No. If you add the -dik suffix to a verb stem it becomes a noun, an adjective or an adverb. Yes these can take personal suffixes. It is a secondary usage of possessive suffix in that case. It doesn't mean possession.

-dik suffix historically was a suffix to make adjectives from verbs.

example:
adjective + noun
yeni + kitap : new book
(benim) okuduğum + kitap : the book that I read
(onların) okudukları kitap : the book that they read
(onların) geldikleri yer : the place they have come

At first it was only used with personal suffixes and before nouns and as an adjective. As you see in the examples okuduğum, okudukları, geldikleri takes possessive personal adjective (benim, onların etc) and not personal pronouns. The possessive personal adjectives are in harmony with the personal suffixes:
benim ...-im
onların ...-leri

Then with time it changed. It was again used with the same personal suffixes but it was also used with adverbs:

(ben) okuduğum zaman : when I read
(onlar) okudukları zaman : when they read
(ben) okuduğum için : because I read
(onlar) okudukları için : because they read

This time the possession like in "the book that I have read" is dissapeared with adverbs. Still the suffixes are there but we use now personal pronouns.
At this stage when we say "ben okuduğum zaman" (whan I read) the possessive suffixes look strange. They shouldn't be there but this is the way how the language has evolved. "okuduğum kitap" and "okuduğum zaman" are two very different things but they have the same suffixes.

I have added the third plural person to make it clear it is -dik suffix.

Later the -dik suffix continued its change and was also used without those personal possessive suffixes:

okuduktan sonra
geldikten sonra

This is actually a more reasonable development than the previous one where you use possessives without any possession. Now you can add any personal pronoun without any change:
ben geldikten sonra
sen geldikten sonra

The -dik suffix is not the only one to build adverbs or adjectives from verbs. There are many.

8.       bliss
900 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 07:56 am

Poor Bod!
Did you eat your Muska Böreği because I think 5 minutes were past long before all these grammar explanation. If I was you, I just would respond to the word 'sonra' but thank you anyway, if not you I wouldn't know about all these suffixes.
Thank you Erdinç for the great lesson

9.       bod
5999 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 11:18 am

What about the suffixes in
havalandırarak dinlendiriniz

They both have the -dir suffix. Is this the third person singular possessive suffix??? And is the -iniz suffix added to make this into a general instruction???

havalandırarak dinlendiriniz
Set it aside by ventilating it

10.       bod
5999 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 11:20 am

Quoting bliss:

Poor Bod!
Did you eat your Muska Böreği because I think 5 minutes were past long before all these grammar explanation.



I was hitting refresh every 30 seconds while cooking, hoping for some help......but none came in time But I deep fried them and they were very tasty

11.       bliss
900 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 11:33 am

Glad to hear it. Next time do not wait for grammar rules to eat, do it as you wish, never fallow the instructions.

12.       bod
5999 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 11:52 am

Quoting bliss:

Glad to hear it. Next time do not wait for grammar rules to eat, do it as you wish, never fallow the instructions.



I don't usually follow instructions - my cooking is good enough not to need to. But I was cooking something I hadn't tried before so thought I better at least understand the instructions

13.       bliss
900 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 12:04 pm

I understand you very well. Usually I do not fallow the instructions.
Men are better chefs.

14.       erdinc
2151 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 03:31 pm

Quoting bod:

havalandırarak dinlendiriniz
Set it aside by ventilating it



Hi Bod,
Winmekmak currently recognizes both conjugations correctly and it has the translations as well. Open winmekmak, press F3 key on your keyboard and write down havalandırarak or dinlendiriniz .

15.       bod
5999 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 05:48 pm

Quoting erdinc:

Quoting bod:

havalandırarak dinlendiriniz
Set it aside by ventilating it



Hi Bod,
Winmekmak currently recognizes both conjugations correctly and it has the translations as well. Open winmekmak, press F3 key on your keyboard and write down havalandırarak or dinlendiriniz .



Thanks Erdinç.
But how can I tell (without using WinMekMak) that it is havalandir-arak and not havalan-dir-arak?

Nice to see that the new version of WinMekMak supports copy and paste of Türkçe characters

16.       erdinc
2151 posts
 01 Aug 2006 Tue 06:58 pm

Hi Bod,
This -dir suffix is the causative suffix.

Examples:
almak (to get) > aldırmak (to make somebody get)
bakmak > baktırmak (to make somebody look)
yapmak > yaptırmak (to make somebody do)

This issue is very smillar to passives:
germek (to stretch) > gerilmek (to be stretched)
bozmak (to break down) > bozulmak (to be broken down)

Now, the question is, "Is aldırmak a verb on its own or is it a variant of almak?" Smillarly, "Is 'gerilmek' a verb on its own or is it a variant of germek?"

These are a bit difficult to tell. My approach is to consider all those causative or passives as independent verbs. Therefore there is nothing wrong to say the infinitive of havalandırarak is havalandırmak.

In most cases the causatives or passives have different meanings then the version they were derived from. This means the causatives ort passives have such meaning that are not included in the definition of non-causative or non-passive versions. Those causative and passives need their own definitions. They are independent verbs. In some cases a verb might be omited from language but its passive or
causative verb can survive.

On winmekmak we couldn't prevent passives to take passive a second time. There is no causative conjugation at all so the problem was only with passives although the issues are the same.

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