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my controversial topic ;-)
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| 2. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 02:42 pm |
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Good question! Come on guys (girls?), where are your answers?
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| 3. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 05:42 pm |
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It's also the same with America!
My turkish ex-husband used to be this way too and constantly found too many faults with the USA and it's people, it got so irritating after a while to hear his negative opinions all the time even whenever we went out to enjoy the day  So it's no surprise for me to hear that they are also unhappy about being in England.
He would always throw in my face how wonderful his country is and his country people! Basically to me is that why they complain so much is because they miss their family, friends, culture and certain things of back home.
Of course I won't say that my country is perfect, but it's still my home and if I had to live in another country other then the USA then I would have to accept things as they are there and not knock it.
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| 4. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 05:44 pm |
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Well, its easy to answer really. In the case of the USA and UK - nobody goes there because they LOVE the country, they go they for certain freedom, or work, or money. They still retain their love for their home country. I suppose you could say that our countries are being USED but then again, do we own them? Shouldn't people have a right to go where they please?
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| 5. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 05:59 pm |
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Quoting aenigma x: Well, its easy to answer really. In the case of the USA and UK - nobody goes there because they LOVE the country, they go they for certain freedom, or work, or money. They still retain their love for their home country. I suppose you could say that our countries are being USED but then again, do we own them? Shouldn't people have a right to go where they please? |
Of course people have the right to go where they please. But do you think constantly complaining about 'your' new country will make you less homesick?
I think, if you choose to go to another country you should make the best of it. Trying to be one of the guys/girls instead of moaning without stopping. And in every country - at least all western - there are plenty of possibilities to find your own culture back.
But what I hear here in Holland for example is 'why doesn't the government pay for our mosques / school / cultural institutions'. Why? Because that same government does not pay for temples, churches, synagogues and other non-public schools as well. I can understand you want to keep your cultural luggage, your religion. But like I have to do in another country, I think people in 'my' (awful word) country has to do as well: make your own or deal with the choices that are given.
And no, I never will say that Holland is the best country but almost anything is possible, as long as you work (literally or in a matter of speech) for it.
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| 6. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 06:08 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: Quoting aenigma x: Well, its easy to answer really. In the case of the USA and UK - nobody goes there because they LOVE the country, they go they for certain freedom, or work, or money. They still retain their love for their home country. I suppose you could say that our countries are being USED but then again, do we own them? Shouldn't people have a right to go where they please? |
Of course people have the right to go where they please. But do you think constantly complaining about 'your' new country will make you less homesick?
I think, if you choose to go to another country you should make the best of it. Trying to be one of the guys/girls instead of moaning without stopping. And in every country - at least all western - there are plenty of possibilities to find your own culture back.
But what I hear here in Holland for example is 'why doesn't the government pay for our mosques / school / cultural institutions'. Why? Because that same government does not pay for temples, churches, synagogues and other non-public schools as well. I can understand you want to keep your cultural luggage, your religion. But like I have to do in another country, I think people in 'my' (awful word) country has to do as well: make your own or deal with the choices that are given.
And no, I never will say that Holland is the best country but almost anything is possible, as long as you work (literally or in a matter of speech) for it. |
Exactly my point and I totally agree with you ladies 
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| 7. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 07:31 pm |
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I think there are a number of reasons why Turkish people might want to come to so called western countries such as the ones already mentioned like the UK and USA.Although it is worth mentioning that many Turkish people have no desire to leave their country.
First of all in my experience they might want to come because there are many more opportunies for work with better pay i.e. you might be able to build a more affluent and sustainable personal economy although having said that the cost of living is higher in the UK so it probably balances itself out.
Secondly they might have loved ones they want to be with and if that means moving then they will do that.
Again speaking from personal experience because thats all i have to go on,my fiance always says that the 'standards' in the UK are better.I think what he means by that is that the general living situation is improved. I.e hospitals,education and so on.I can't really comment on this because i have never experienced either of those institutions in Turkey.He also talks about the justice system as being some what corrupt especially the prisons.He also complains about the fact that he has to do national service.
Speaking for myself i think there is no reason why the governments' shouldnt grant more visas.I am bias of course because i want my fiance to come here once we are married and start a new life (If he decides he wants to) On the other hand he might not want to and in that case i will have to go and join him in Ankara.
Anyway just a few thoughts.Will be interesting to see what others have to say.
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| 8. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 08:41 pm |
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Well when I wanted to really see the world, I sold everything I had, packed some clothes into a backpack, got a one way ticket to South America.
I lived and worked 'illegally' as an American citizen in South America. While I LOVED South America and adopted it as my own, I too found myself like other immigrants complaining about things.
I mean, ever try to go to work when there is a university student strike and burning tires keep all buses and trains from passing? So, at times I compared my country to my host country.
There is a known and scientifically documented studies on cultural adaptation. And one of the many stages before reaching acceptance of a new cultural environment is the complaining stage. At one point everything that was great becomes horrible and you actually 'hate' it. Everybody who has lived for a length of time in another country, I'm not talking about traveling through although you can experience it with even short trips, experiences this. Some more severely than others and of course some pass through this stage faster and others linger.
That is the reason why immigrants complain! I personally seem to hit this stage of culture shock somewhere within the third month of living in another country. As I have lived in several countries I am aware of what is going on. So, I know how to 'treat' myself or accept that these feelings will disappear. But, it really comes with knowledge and recognition of what is occuring.
From my own personal experience....I have noticed that men seem to linger longer in this stage and adapt slower than women. I can't answer why. But it is only from my personal observation.
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| 9. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 08:49 pm |
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Capoeira, sounds reasonable and logic. But how much time do you think the complaining stage may take?
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| 10. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 08:56 pm |
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i'd just like to say for the record that i don't actually have a problem with this.just needed something controversial for us to post 
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| 11. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 08:58 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: Capoeira, sounds reasonable and logic. But how much time do you think the complaining stage may take? |
When I take U.S. univeristy students to study in another country we have a short seminar on culture shock so that they go prepared to face it and get past it.
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| 12. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 09:01 pm |
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Quoting robyn : i'd just like to say for the record that i don't actually have a problem with this.just needed something controversial for us to post |
I don't have a problem with the complaining itself though I think life will be much more fun if one is not complaining 24/7. But I do have a problem with complainers who after 10 years or more act like they are 'victims'. In my opinion you can always make something of your life, it might not be the dreamlife you always wanted but sitting, waiting and not doing anything yourself doesn't bring you any further, does it?
BTW Robyn, controversial enough, this opinion?
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| 14. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 09:06 pm |
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Quoting Capoeira: Quoting Trudy: Capoeira, sounds reasonable and logic. But how much time do you think the complaining stage may take? |
When I take U.S. univeristy students to study in another country we have a short seminar on culture shock so that they go prepared to face it and get past it. |
Well 1-2 years I can understand but I know here in Holland immigrants who after 30 years still complain! I had a student once from Morocco, he came here when he was 17 and after living here thirty years he still not spoke the language and come to our companyschool. When I asked him why he did not speak Dutch after that long time he said "They did not pay for the school expenses and I had to learn the language in my own time".
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| 15. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 09:07 pm |
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New topic? Why? This is fine by me.
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| 16. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 09:08 pm |
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Quoting Capoeira: Well when I wanted to really see the world, I sold everything I had, packed some clothes into a backpack, got a one way ticket to South America. |
Ahhhh my heroine ....I will be doing that on day!
Anyway back on to the actual subject:
Some who are under the age of 18 don't have a choice whether they move to another country because they're parents make the choice for them. So they tend to moan about their new life because they miss their old friends, family or just the simple way of living.
Other than that I don't see a reason for a person to complain why they moved because no one made them move, right?
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| 17. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 09:09 pm |
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Quoting Capoeira: There is a known and scientifically documented studies on cultural adaptation. And one of the many stages before reaching acceptance of a new cultural environment is the complaining stage. At one point everything that was great becomes horrible and you actually 'hate' it. Everybody who has lived for a length of time in another country, I'm not talking about traveling through although you can experience it with even short trips, experiences this. Some more severely than others and of course some pass through this stage faster and others linger. |
This is interesting Capoeira, thanks. Do you maybe have a link to this study and its sources? I'd like to read more about it.
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| 18. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 09:10 pm |
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Quoting Trudy:
New topic? Why? This is fine by me. |
i meant ur point about sitting on ur butt n doing nothing with ur life.then complaining about how bad it is  ..in my words now not urs 
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| 19. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 09:12 pm |
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Quoting kai: Anyway back on to the actual subject:
Some who are under the age of 18 don't have a choice whether they move to another country because they're parents make the choice for them. So they tend to moan about their new life because they miss their old friends, family or just the simple way of living.
Other than that I don't see a reason for a person to complain why they moved because no one made them move, right? |
No, that's not true. In my classes I have several former refugees. People from Nigeria, Afghanistan, Kurds from Iraq and other countries where it is/was not that nice. They didn't have a real choice as well. But after 10 years or more I think people should stop complaining and MAKE something of their lifes!
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| 21. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 09:20 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: Quoting kai: Anyway back on to the actual subject:
Some who are under the age of 18 don't have a choice whether they move to another country because they're parents make the choice for them. So they tend to moan about their new life because they miss their old friends, family or just the simple way of living.
Other than that I don't see a reason for a person to complain why they moved because no one made them move, right? |
No, that's not true. In my classes I have several former refugees. People from Nigeria, Afghanistan, Kurds from Iraq and other countries where it is/was not that nice. They didn't have a real choice as well. But after 10 years or more I think people should stop complaining and MAKE something of their lifes! |
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| 22. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 09:23 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: Quoting kai: Anyway back on to the actual subject:
Some who are under the age of 18 don't have a choice whether they move to another country because they're parents make the choice for them. So they tend to moan about their new life because they miss their old friends, family or just the simple way of living.
Other than that I don't see a reason for a person to complain why they moved because no one made them move, right? |
No, that's not true. In my classes I have several former refugees. People from Nigeria, Afghanistan, Kurds from Iraq and other countries where it is/was not that nice. They didn't have a real choice as well. But after 10 years or more I think people should stop complaining and MAKE something of their lifes! |
But thats what I am saying, why are they complaining? They are safer where they are now when where they were. Alot of people would love to be in their position.
I know people from Iraq and although they love their country and miss it very much they are thanking God that they are not thier now and very thankful that they are safe. So although they had no choice in moving they don't complain because they no the other place they could be living in.
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| 23. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 09:27 pm |
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Quoting Capoeira: Ok Trudy...I totally agree with you. People at some point need to take responsibility for their own lives. But, having lived abroad, starting from scratch, I mean no family, friends, job, is really tough. I happen to have a tough stick to it personality, but not all others. Also, while I was just another illegal, I was a college educated "AMERICAN" illegal immigrant. So people were very happy and excited to see me applying for jobs in their establishment. I did not experience the prejudice and racism that other immigrants had to face. My American citizenship afforded me priviledges that others did not have. So, I am sure their hardship is double and their personal mountains to climb are even higher. So, I'm saying as an educator we motivate people and yes it's frustrating when we don't see them ever 'getting' it. But, hopefully some will eventually and those that don't...I would just say...keep them in your prayers. I hope I don't come off as self righteous or critical of you. I feel and understand your sentiments exactly. |
You're absolutely not critical, and even if you were, be my guest. I try - being a teacher - to keep in mind that lifes of some people are not that good / have not always been that good, I know. The people I talk about are now Dutch citizens, have the right to vote, go on holiday to their own country (but they don't want to go back because Holland has more opportunities!). I just can't stand the way of thinking of some: can you do it for me? Get my drift (again)?
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| 24. |
03 Dec 2006 Sun 11:23 pm |
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Quoting Trudy: Quoting Capoeira: Ok Trudy...I totally agree with you. People at some point need to take responsibility for their own lives. But, having lived abroad, starting from scratch, I mean no family, friends, job, is really tough. I happen to have a tough stick to it personality, but not all others. Also, while I was just another illegal, I was a college educated "AMERICAN" illegal immigrant. So people were very happy and excited to see me applying for jobs in their establishment. I did not experience the prejudice and racism that other immigrants had to face. My American citizenship afforded me priviledges that others did not have. So, I am sure their hardship is double and their personal mountains to climb are even higher. So, I'm saying as an educator we motivate people and yes it's frustrating when we don't see them ever 'getting' it. But, hopefully some will eventually and those that don't...I would just say...keep them in your prayers. I hope I don't come off as self righteous or critical of you. I feel and understand your sentiments exactly. |
You're absolutely not critical, and even if you were, be my guest. I try - being a teacher - to keep in mind that lifes of some people are not that good / have not always been that good, I know. The people I talk about are now Dutch citizens, have the right to vote, go on holiday to their own country (but they don't want to go back because Holland has more opportunities!). I just can't stand the way of thinking of some: can you do it for me? Get my drift (again)? |
this brings me back to ur post u did that time..about people's rights in host countries 
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| 25. |
04 Dec 2006 Mon 06:22 pm |
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I'm not sure if the original question has been answered correctly yet. I can honestly say that I don't know one Turk that has left Turkey because they hate it here (or love the country they are going to).
They go so they can make money, come back, and buy a flat. Additionally, they can avoid military service if they do this. If you go abroad to work, when you come back, you pay a large sum of money (I think between $5,000 and $10,000 USD). You still have to serve a short time in the military, maybe 3 months and then use the work experience you received abroad to get a better job here.
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| 26. |
05 Dec 2006 Tue 09:57 pm |
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thx keith 4 answering the question ..
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| 27. |
10 May 2007 Thu 05:46 am |
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While I know that it's very hard to adjust to another country and culture and immigrants always miss the place where they were born, I think that it's quite awful of them to keep complaining and not appreciating the privileges, hospitality and opportunities they enjoy in the new country. I can't stand it when they even make hateful remarks or make it sound like they were forced to come here. Suddenly, the country they dreamt to leave became a paradise :-S! Men are much worse with this then women, partly (I think) because they form stronger tribal bonds, and partly because they aren't as emotionally mature.
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