I'd like to post an excerpt from a book "The Caged Virgin" (Ayaan Hirsi Ali) that is showing how a woman's life may turn when she lives in a society that worhips virginity.


This is a story of a Muslim immigrant family in the Netherlands:

"At the address in Utrecht I find an unbelievable mess. The whole house stinks of urine. Two toddlers are puttering about in nappies that they have been wearing for far too long. Dirty nappies are lying around everywhere. My niece's friend, whose house we are visiting, is called Anab.
While we are sitting there on the sofa with Maryan, and Anab is making us tea, Maryan says, "You see those videotapes over there? That's all pornography. Hard porn. Anab's husband rents them. He forces Anab to watch them and to do all the crazy things shown in the video. He rapes her anally; she has to put up with horrible things."

I recognize the story: this is the same Anab as the one I came across in the file at the police station in The Hague. While the man who raped and traumatized Anab [her half-brother who was supposed to look after her and her sister when they first immigrated to the Netherlands] is behind bars, her family has managed to find a cousin prepared to marry her, despite the fact that she is no longer a virgin. The sexual abuse - which according to her sister - has "never before happened in our family" - has been swept under the carpet, and teh family name has been cleared.
On inquiry it emerges that Anab was married to her cousin as soon as she reached eighteen. From that age the young asylum seekers no longer fall under the care of the Opbouw Trust. Presumably her cousin, for whatever reason, had been unable to find a wife. The family said to him: "We have a wife for you, but you'll have to keep your mouth shut about what happened to her." After years of abuse by her half brother, Anab is now suffering the abuse of her cousin, whom she has been forced to marry.

Anab's story shows how a girl is sacrificed in the name of the sacred cult of virginhood to save teh family honor. And it is not just Anab who becomes the victim of this myth; her children and husband are equally affected. Her husband behaves insanely with her and tells himself it is all right, since "she had lost her virginity, so she was already a whore." And her two children literally grow up in a rubbish dump. What will become of them?"

Let's not mix 2 things together,
Talking about Virginity is for NONE married girls
Both religion and Tradition refuse and forbid girls to lose their Virginity before marriage
And if you have Faith in some religion then you should obay but that is not the point here
As for divorced women 'Not Virgin Of Course'there is no problem,or SHOULDNT be a problem.
İn İslam our Phrophet Muhammed married his first wife and she was a widow!

But what i dont understand in this story is why didnt this woman Anab leave her husband and report him before leaving him,specially as you said she is in a Western country and she wont be afraid of Tradition or something like this.
And she would get a social help too in her case ?

Canli - Anab was not married twice, she was abused as a child by her half brother and then continued to be terribly abused by her husband.
Even in Western countries, there are large groups of immigrants that live with tight bonds, so the "traditions" are still very strong for them. Many Muslims who live in Europe, think that they live among "infidels" therefore they don't want to integrate and they don't want their kids to integrate (some even teach their kids to hate the host country).
Please, don't judge the woman too quickly. People who live their entire lives with a certain mentality, don't see the same options and rights that people who grew up in freedom do.
Even though the prophet Mohammed might have set some moral guides to Muslims, please don't close your eyes when there are Muslims who twist their beliefs to justify their immoral, or (as in this case) extremely abusive behavior.

To answer your question about why she didn't leave the husband, I'll quote another paragraph from the book:

"Anab ran away from home more then once, and on several occasions she was removed from the house by social services, but she went back each time. Through a neighbor she was helped to settle in a shelter for abused women for a while, until her husband picked her up and took her home. Sa-ied [her half brother who was supposed to take care of her when she first immigrated to the Netherlands] is in prison because he sexually abused Anab, but her husband, who treats her just as badly, remains at large."

This is how the story began:

"Anab and Shukri are two underage asylum seekers. Upon arrival in the Netherlands, they are asked whether they have any family in the country. They are sent to Sa-ied, an older half brother who has been living in the Netherlands with his wife for five years. The organization in charge of underage asylum seekers, a trust called De Opbouw, places the girls "under his care" instead of appointing an official guardian. At this time the trust was responsible for finding suitable guardians for underage asylum seekers who had come without their parents and for monitoring their general welfare.
Sa-ied subjects both girls to severe sexual abuse for an extended period of time; Anab, the eldest of the two, suffers the worst and longest. The story comes to the surface when the younger sister, Shukri, goes to the social worker at the trust and tells her everything. The trust reports the case and also contacts the child protection agency. Sa-ied is arrested and ends up in prison.
At the police headquarters of the vice squad in The Hague, I meet Anab's and Shukri's sister. I have been asked to be an interpreter for this heavily pregnant Somali woman.
She tells the police that she, her two sisters, and her half brother are all related on their father's side. In those circumstances a half brother is seen as a full brother. The police ask her in detail about the perpetrator. She takes half an hour to tell the police how perfectly virtuous her family is: that it is just this boy; that sexual abuse never occurs among Somali people; that this is a curse. Finally, she demands a full investigation of the case to check whether it really happened. The woman is thoroughly confused. She wonders how she can put it right.
I find out many details about the case: when it began, how it began, who reported it, and that the man did not only abuse the two girls but regularly raped and violated his wife as well.
Approximately one week later my niece Maryan comes to live with me. At the weekend she asks me if I can pick her up from an address in Utrecht......"

This is horrible . Unfortunately those women who are apathetic to feminism or just "dont feel it affects them" are the least likely to read this .

The men? Most are far too busy enjoying their current status to want change.

I don't know what your point is in posting this item. As I understand it from the Forum Rules:

10. Any discussion on politics or religion and religious matters is strictly prohibited.

11. Postings about your religious beliefs; explaining any subject from a religious perspective; trying to influence others with your religious beliefs; getting religion involved in any subject and/or any subjects with religion as the main theme is prohibited. This is a religion - free website where all members should feel comfortable whether they are religious, atheist, agnostic or whatever.

The only exception to this is where someone has raised a question about Turkish culture which cannot be answered without making a reference to religion, for example an explanation about a turkish religious holiday. Anyone answering a question of this nature, must be careful to keep their answer impartial, impersonal and non controversial. Any such responses will be deleted.

This is a very provocative article and Hirsi Ali is not very knowledgable about Islam. She is an avowed athiest and anti Islamic. If we are to not disucss religion here, why are you bringing this up?

I dont think this is about religion, its about the culture which demands virginity of women before marriage AT ANY COST!

As far as I understand it, both MEN and WOMEN should be virgins before marriage in Islam, and this thread does not criticise that fact.

ok

Armegon, I'm sorry about the confusion. The story I posted is a real story the author has seen and I used it as an example of what the cult of virginity leads to in real life, in extreme conditions. I am not talking or implying anything about Hirsi Ali's ideas about Islam! I did not try to say that this kind of behavior is normal for all Muslims either, that is definitely not true.

I would like to just add a little bit of background information on Ayaan Hirsi Ali, for those who are interested. The past few years she has been in the news many times, in both positive and negative ways.

Ayaan Hirsi Magan was born in Somalie, but didnt spend much of her life there. Her family moved to Saoudi-Arabia, Ethiopia and Kenia.

At the age of 23, in 1992(and if İ am not mistaken whilst living in Kenia), there was a crisis in her homeland Somalia, different groups attacked each other in a civil war, half a million people died from hunger and 2 million people stayed as refugees in the surrounding countries. At that time, Holland opened its doors and nearly took all the refugees that came from this war. Ayaan Hirsi Magan used this opportunity and came to Holland. (there is some confusion around here as she was heading to Canada as well and stayed in Germany to handle some paperwork).

In any way, upon arrival in the Netherlands, she decided she wanted to stay there. When interrogated by the İmmigration and Naturalisation Organisation, she said to have fled from the immediate-crisis area. She avoided to say she had spend 12 years in Kenia and several days in Germany. She would have been sent back to Germany, because that is a safe country too. Kenia too, was considered to be a safe country in those days. To stop them from sending her back, she gave a wrong year of birth (2 years earlier) to sabotize the investigations. Also, she changed her name from Ayaan Hirsi Magan to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She would be known under this name till 2006. Her request for political asylum was accepted within a few weeks, with an A-status: a permanent permission of residence for persons who are not safe in their homeland.
She studied politics at university and then became a politician with strong anti-islamic ideas, first for PvdA and then VVD (a strange change of party, but according to her there was no space for her thoughts on the negative results of migration in the former party).

5 years after arrival she was 'naturalised' (I dont know the english word, but you get citizenship and nationality of the new country) as a person from the Netherlands. However, in 2006, a tv programme, her 'Netherland-ship' was questioned, since she lied about her identity when applying for it, nor could she remain a politician.

İt is heard that these things were known among many politicians who chose to keep their mouth shut. Also, all the things came in the news, supposedly after she had applied for the job in the United States.

Everything around her life as a refugee and a politician these days is rather controversial and she has confused a
many.
Her thoughts on the İslam and the holy prophet Muhammed, have provoced many İslamic citizens of Holland.
She was threatened by muslims several times and lived at secret and secured addresses for a while.


People abroad may have heard from her when Theo van Gogh was murdered brutally. Van Gogh was a Dutch film director with 'straight through sea' and rather rude ideas about the İslam, or actually muslims in general. Together with Ayaan Hirsi Ali he produced the film 'Submission', which showed the oppressed Muslim women. This film raised a lot of anger among muslims who said it was all too wrong and too extreme.

Van Gogh was murdered by a young man, who goes by the name of Mohammed Bouyeri, who said to have handled in the name of Allah, he saw himself as an instrument of Allah. Van Gogh was shot several times, his throat slit and the knife stabbed deeply inside the body. With a smaller knife, the murdered had pinned a letter upon his body, addressed to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, threatening her.

---

Ohh well, this has nothing to do with the article itself, thought Id just explain the 'lies' that have been mentioned before and why she has become like that in the eyes of many dutch people.

Thank you DK. Your post made me wonder on another subject. I don't speak for myself, but have to admit there is a degree of anti-muslim feeling in the UK which has been fuelled by the frequent reports of terrorist acts and murders here being carried out "in the name of Allah".

In my limited understanding of Islam, I believe it to be very anti-violence. I am curious as to how other muslims feel when they read reports of these acts being carried out in Allah's name?

I know what it is to have to watch violent acts I disagree with being carried out in the name of "England" in Iraq and other places, so my question is not intended to fuel an argument about whose culture is worse than whose!

With news that author Salman Rushdie is again back on top of a murder hit-list,I am just curious about your feelings about this. Do you, in principal, accept that someone who criticises Islam should be punished?

(I appreciate I am possibly breaking forum rules, but sometimes feel such subjects, when discussed, bring about better understanding than silence)

Dear Aenigma x

Yes you are right, Islam does not support violence but some extremist groups deceive illiterate people to take advantage of them using religion, to brainwash them mostly political reasons or any goal to reach for them.

For example Muhammed B. who killed Theo van Gogh was a very frusturated young man searching for identity then he found himself in some extremist group, group brainwashed him as Theo van Gogh attacked Morrocans in Holland and kept offending them. Then he fooled himself by believeing he did it in the name of Allah. When one study him, it can be seen that he was seeking for an identitty. In Islam killing is strictly forbidden till believers are killed thus it is self self-defence. You cannot find any verses in Kuran that says kill or fight anyone who did nothing to you.

Thank you so much for clarifying that Armegon

Your answer is the one I give to people when this subject comes up in conversation, but I have never actually asked the question of muslims before. It frustrates me that people are so narrow-minded and fearful of any culture that is not their own and so quick to judge the many by the few.

Yes. Later Muhammed translated a sentence in which he showed that killing was allowed by his god:
"Mandatory to kill the one who has insulted the prophet [...]". HOWEVER this is not a sentence from the Quran and therefore shows what is said before, that the İslam is explained in very different ways, and an extreme one like this can lead to those like Muhammed who go astray.

The sentence comes from the book "As Sarim alMasloel 3la Satmie Arrasoel", written by Ahmad ibn Tajmijja (1263-1328).

Just note the dates that this man has lived..


--
I havent finished the Quran myself, so I cant respond from that point of view, but it has become clear more than once that there are different intrepretations of the İslam, and that there are many powerful people who use this for the wrong purposes. Another muslim said during the trial that Muhammad Bouyeri probably visited the İmam Jneid Fawaz, who several weeks before the murder prayed for Allah to send Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Theo van Gogh horrible illnesses.

Dear Deli_Kizin

I agree most of your post. The quote you made is just seen as the words of Allah which lead extermists to this crooked system. It is nothing but lie about Allah, some so-called religious leaders always giving fatwa as they know better than Allah. People try to interpret Kuran through false beliefs/hadiths which totally contradicts with Kuran so it is seen there are many interpretations of Islam. It is not the fault of Islam but the fault of seyhs, cult/religious leaders. I think this is the biggest problem of today Islamic world, people who do not use their brain-intellect, hire their minds to their religious leaders and worship their leaders or prophet instead of God. Let me tell you an ironic reality of Salman Rushdie, you know there is also a fatwa given against Salman Rushdie, but the book he published “satanic verses” is not originated by Salman Rushdie(I think he named his book falsely, maybe satanic hadiths more suitable), it was taken from the stories of Tabari(923) and Ibn Sa’d(845) which seen big scholars in Islamic world(ironic huh?), it is also a tradition among christian missionaries and conservative christians to vilify the Islam through centuries and the phrase “satanic verses” firstly used by English missionary belligerent Sir William Muir(surprisingly he was also a sir ). So Salman Rushdie is maybe the last person to be blamed , muslims(especially extremists) should look at themselves firstly, how did they create this crooked system?.

This has been a very interesting conversation thus far.

However, I'd like to comment regarding the cult of virginity that exists in various cultures, including Christian and Muslim.

First, it is just about impossible to determine one's virgin state if the proof is seen to be bleeding on the wedding night by the bride. There is a problem with this is that all virgins do not bleed.

Even if the lady does bleed, is it because she was a virgin, or did she have had plastic surgery to repair a hymen?

In other words, I think much too much attention is placed on purely physical attributes.

The very tragic result is lives are ruined based on faulty expectations and information.

It reminds me of a story about a man who went to some villages and taught people about fire. He taught them how to start, how to use fire and he then went on his way.

Some years later he visited the same villages and found in one village they had fire on an alter and the worshiped it. The next village their object of worship was the veneration of the "fire bringing god", the last village the people actually cooked their food, heated their homes with fire. They took great care in how they used the fire and were careful to put it out when they were finished.

This story reminds me of the cult of the virgin. What is a virgin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin

I love happy faces makes me kind of happy,too!

This is what the Turkish Ministry of Culture and Tourism tells people about marriage in Turkey and its customs (including virginity).........

"...Then follows the custom of inspecting the bed sheet that is the symbol of the bride’s innocence and chastity. The aunt or cook who is responsible for organizing the wedding is informed of the situation of the bride, and then conveys this news back to the families. Sometimes, if the bride proves not to be a virgin, she may be sent back to her father’s home....."

I am shocked! Is this REALLY the image the Turkish government want to give to others?

http://www.kultur.gov.tr/EN/BelgeGoster.aspx?17A16AE30572D313A781CAA92714FCE066FA6A1CE407B291

It is a very silly tradition. If they don't trust girls what aobut married women? If that is so important married women shouldn't let go out without their husbands because now that they lost their virginity, it cannot be understood whether they cheat their husband or not.
And one more point, Why men are not asked about their virginity? The same silly tradition undermines men if they don't have a sexual relationship but when it comes to women they kill them or they threaten women that they are sinful according to religious rules as if men were not responsible for the same rules. Lastly, be careful about the name: tradition. did you get the message?

i think thats better to use ''ethical filter'' while sieving ''goods&bads'' or ''trues&wrongs'',mostly not easy to catch common points with help of beliefs or religions,coz religions and beliefs so relative,so need more objective tools for find to common points ..

Interesting to view/judge a country through its "traditions". Generally, Governments pass laws that seem appropriate at the time and stay on the books for generations. For example, some states in the US still have laws that state it is ok for a husband to beat his wife. Yet at the same time have laws that punish spousal abuse.
Go figure.

Aenigma, where is this anti-Americanism coming from? Is there really nothing that can be appreciated about the US? Even the fact that they rescued Europe both from fascism and communism...?
I think that some things maybe are much nicer in other countries, but I don't know of any other place in the world where you can feel so free and as much in charge of your life as you can be in the US. I think this is the best system in many ways.

Sure, there're also a lot of things that I appreciate in the US. One day, I'd like to go there just for visiting. I think the Europe looks down upon on the US a bit, because what's real they lack culture and history. They exaggerate a lot of things, and there's a lot of cultural degeneration that's imported from the US to all parts of world. As well as the good things she has done, US has also done so many bad things, and the problem is she really sees herself as the police and director of the world. It saved us from the "evil" communism, but he created other evil things, he created the islamic fanatic groups and now he's bringing "democracy" to these places.
And I do not believe there's such a freedom there. You can get in prison for very stupid things, and there's still sentence to death. There are a lot of religious sects, and funny things going around religion there. It's quite easy to get a gun there. etc. etc. And there's no real social insurance there like in europe, if you have money, you can benefit from the best medical facilities, but if you do not have money, the government do not much care about you. You work a lot to make money there, in europe, you appreciate the social life you can have beside working, and you feel youself more under the protection umbrella of the government.
don't know there're strange things going on there. I'd prefer europe to US for a lot of reasons.

karekin, if you had spent as much as time I spent typing these "blah blah", you'd have found the informations that support my blah blah. Thank you aneigma for your backup about getting guns.

Catwoman, its a fact that when you are at the top of the pedestal, everyone wants to knock you down....

Let us have a few digs at this "super power" sometimes!

Purely for the sake of Anglo, USA, Turkish relations I suggest we all go down the pub now!!

God Bless all virgings and unvirgins

to mltm
are you praising europe's social care system?
this is the ever worse thing the europoeans have created!
europe today has created lazy bottox!
you dont work and yet still you have a social care and all the best service just because you are poor thing unable to work out your personal life!
good prisons for criminals! social benefits for lazy bums! super conditions for the immigrants (sort of resorts with all luxury stuff). minorities have more rights than majorities.

so its better to be from minority, do nothing, but enjoy a "super social benefficiary life!"
no money? dont worry! the gov will give you!

mltm
welcome to the paradise! or maybe parasites!?

if someone not virgin on brain or heart,whats meaning on virginity on body?

i think not easy to get realities of a foreign culture without live in it,so we all have to think events in a big cool and trying to understand life realities of foreigns.How can we judge a person abouth just he/she don't look at same with us on a same topic,and why on't we try to think why she/he thinking different way from us.No need to be scientist,just we need to be more objective or more tolerated till to get tradition2s or attitudes' long historical,social,cultural and economical backround...

finally virginity can be as a holy wealth for some cultures while it hasn't any meaning for others....to keep belts under self control very hard job,but i think one of the most kindly attitude..

I am stating the obvious, but of course you don't have to agree.