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double ii possible?
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| 1. |
05 Sep 2007 Wed 11:45 pm |
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What does camii mean? i should think it should be camisi or camiyi... because i learned about the helpers/buffers (y,n or s) between two vowels. Thnx for who'll explain
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| 2. |
05 Sep 2007 Wed 11:54 pm |
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Quoting izah: What does camii mean? i should think it should be camisi or camiyi... because i learned about the helpers/buffers (y,n or s) between two vowels. Thnx for who'll explain |
Camii is the word for mosque.
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| 3. |
05 Sep 2007 Wed 11:59 pm |
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Sorry, that's nopt my question. The single word is 'cami', isn't it? With a single i. My question is: what's the function of the second i?!
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| 4. |
06 Sep 2007 Thu 12:07 am |
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izah in turkish if, a word that ends with a vowel takes a suffix beggining with a vowel we use combining letters (-y,-ş,-s,-n mostly -y) to simplfy the pronunciation..i guess u know that..however in thge word cami (mosque) some writers sometimes doesnt use a combining letter..as u know cami is an arabic word and there is a phrase cami-i şerif in arabic means holy mosque..we took that phrase to turkish directly without any change..so camii is not allright in turkish grammer it should be cami-s-i however cami-i has a common usage..dont worry there are not many words like that..
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| 5. |
06 Sep 2007 Thu 12:19 am |
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Quoting izah: What does camii mean? i should think it should be camisi or camiyi... because i learned about the helpers/buffers (y,n or s) between two vowels. Thnx for who'll explain. |
Normally, there is a rule for some of these type Arabic based words:
cami > Selimiye Camii
mevzu (topic) > bahis mevzuu (discussion topic)
bayi (seller) > ekmek bayii (bread seller)
mısra (verse) > Şiirin birinci mısraı (the first verse of the poem)
But while they are getting more Turkish, they are changing camisi, mısrası, mevzusu, bayisi etc. for possesives and two or more nouns together.
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| 6. |
06 Sep 2007 Thu 12:23 am |
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Quoting oeince: izah in turkish if, a word that ends with a vowel takes a suffix beggining with a vowel we use combining letters (-y,-ş,-s,-n mostly -y) to simplfy the pronunciation..i guess u know that..however in thge word cami (mosque) some writers sometimes doesnt use a combining letter..as u know cami is an arabic word and there is a phrase cami-i şerif in arabic means holy mosque..we took that phrase to turkish directly without any change..so camii is not allright in turkish grammer it should be cami-s-i however cami-i has a common usage..dont worry there are not many words like that... |
That's also a different point. Not related to my previous post.
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| 7. |
06 Sep 2007 Thu 03:29 pm |
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cok tesekkur ederim! Very interesting! Like all answers it provokes (two) new questions:
-is this -i suffix the same suffix as the word should get in arabic? or is it just the case (some) arabic words are threaded different in turkish?
-is there a way in recognizing arabic words in turkish (without knowing arabic ?
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| 8. |
07 Sep 2007 Fri 12:25 am |
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Quoting izah: cok tesekkur ederim! |
Rica ederim 
Quoting izah: Very interesting! |
Evet, there are many things interesting!
Quoting izah: Like all answers it provokes (two) new questions: |
ok, go ahead!
Quoting izah: -is this -i suffix the same suffix as the word should get in arabic? or is it just the case (some) arabic words are threaded different in turkish? |
Not for my explanation; and Yes for the explanation before mine.
When you make a "sıfat tamlaması", you need a "sıfat" (adjective) and an "isim" (noun)
Example:
küçük kedi: little cat
küçük is the adjective-sıfat
kedi is the noun-isim
we don't put any suffixes after them.
But when you make an "isim tamlaması", you need two "isim"s (nouns).
Examples:
kapı kolu: (a/the) door crank (I am not sure if "crank" is suitable word for here)
kapının kolu: (a/the) crank of the door
First refers on any door, no matter which is this door.
The second says that we are talking about an exact door and its crank.
as you see, I put suffixes,
kapı kolu
or
kapının kolu
For the first one:
if the second noun is a word like we mentioned from Arabic:
Selimiye camii
it needs si but we only put i
or: bayii, mısraı
oto bayii
şiir mısraı
like that.
Quoting izah: -is there a way in recognizing arabic words in turkish (without knowing arabic? |
No way!
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| 9. |
07 Sep 2007 Fri 01:46 am |
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Quoting caliptrix:
cami > Selimiye Camii
mevzu (topic) > bahis mevzuu (discussion topic)
bayi (seller) > ekmek bayii (bread seller)
mısra (verse) > Şiirin birinci mısraı (the first verse of the poem)
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Is tabii derived in the same way???
And what about words where there are two consecutive vowels in the middle - like saat - surely this has nothing to do with suffixes!
*CoNFuSeD*
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| 10. |
07 Sep 2007 Fri 09:41 am |
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Quoting bod: Quoting caliptrix:
cami > Selimiye Camii
mevzu (topic) > bahis mevzuu (discussion topic)
bayi (seller) > ekmek bayii (bread seller)
mısra (verse) > Şiirin birinci mısraı (the first verse of the poem)
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Is tabii derived in the same way???
And what about words where there are two consecutive vowels in the middle - like saat - surely this has nothing to do with suffixes!
*CoNFuSeD* |
Could be as originally, but I don't think that it is related to the topic. Because tabii is used itself. Not with another noun.
And there is no relation between saat, şiir, fiil etc and this topic either. They are only the words which has double vowels.
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| 11. |
07 Sep 2007 Fri 01:28 pm |
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i think all grammer of turkish language be different with arabic words , but why , (maybe to know this word is arabic orgin)
like saat -saatler not saatlar
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| 12. |
07 Sep 2007 Fri 11:22 pm |
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Quoting elham: i think all grammer of turkish language be different with arabic words , but why , (maybe to know this word is arabic orgin)
like saat -saatler not saatlar
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Because of the way we pronounce it Elham.
The vowel harmoney rule is not just grammer is a pronunciation rule
For example,
Pronounce okul... its a hard voice not a soft one,that is why it too lAr not lEr,a hard vowel voice too.
The way we pronounce saat,harf,..ect
İts a soft voices,so it is taking a soft vowels instead of hard ones.
And as for tabii,its an arabic word too,and they are adding the other 'İ ' to make stress on the 'İ ' because tabi, is not the right pronunciation for it
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| 13. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 12:00 am |
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thanks CANLI
if so they can write it seet not saat or herf not harf
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| 14. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 12:05 am |
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Quoting elham: thanks CANLI
if so they can write it seet not saat or herf not harf
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lol Elham ,
Do we pronounce it seet ?!
The right sound for it is with a light ' A ' so they cant put 'E ' instead
We say Sa'at,so they have the right letters for the word.
And because its light 'A ' which they dont pronounce,so they made the vowel harmony go with it.
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| 15. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 12:14 am |
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Quoting CANLI: Quoting elham: thanks CANLI
if so they can write it seet not saat or herf not harf
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lol Elham ,
Do we pronounce it seet ?!
The right sound for it is with a light ' A ' so they cant put 'E ' instead
We say Sa'at,so they have the right letters for the word.
And because its light 'A ' which they dont pronounce,so they made the vowel harmony go with it. |
thanks agian canim
im kidding only
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| 16. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 07:15 pm |
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What's a light or soft A? The a in saat does sound different (longer) than in aksam, but in sarf it doesnot (to me). The double aa is more in front of the mouth so saatler makes sense with the vowelharmony rule. But i do not understand that with a single a like in sarf....
A bit difficult: explaining how something sounds while writing, but may be somebody can... ?
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| 17. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 07:43 pm |
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Quoting izah: What's a light or soft A? The a in saat does sound different (longer) than in aksam, but in sarf it doesnot (to me). The double aa is more in front of the mouth so saatler makes sense with the vowelharmony rule. But i do not understand that with a single a like in sarf....
A bit difficult: explaining how something sounds while writing, but may be somebody can... ? |
it has been always hard to explain and understand
I will try to explain it the physical conditionals of tongue.
Normally there is a word: at
(at means horse)
We pronounce it easily by making our tongue like saying the "a" letter in "garage"
then we say "t" by touching only the peak of our tongue to the part between palate and teeth on front.
Now it comes: at
But in "saat", the last two letters "at" come differently.
firstly "a" comes a bit light/soft as if there is a little "e" sound, and then "t" comes by putting the tongue to the palate more than "peak".
that sound "at" would be a little treble than the previous.
For that reason, our last syllabel of "saat" sounds like a light vowel, and the suffix after it should be with light vowel. Example:
saatler (not saatlar)
sadakatiniz (not sadakatınız)
harfi (not harfı)
But do not forget! This is not related to your first post.
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| 18. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 08:17 pm |
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hmmz, i donot totally get this light a. I feel difference between for an back vowels but this.... I understand the t after the a does sound different too...?
about this firts topic:
is it
suleyman camiiye gitti
or
suleyman camiie gitti
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| 19. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 09:02 pm |
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Quoting izah: hmmz, i donot totally get this light a. I feel difference between for an back vowels but this.... I understand the t after the a does sound different too....?
about this firts topic:
is it
suleyman camiiye gitti
or
suleyman camiie gitti |
"Süleymaniye Camii'ne gitti"
"Gazete bayiine geldi"
"Şiir mısraını okudu"
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| 20. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 09:12 pm |
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Quoting caliptrix:
"Süleymaniye Camii'ne gitti"
"Gazete bayiine geldi"
"Şiir mısraını okudu" |
I do understand the last two (I forgot the second suffix gets a 'n' insteadof 'y')
But not the first sentence. Why: suleymanIYE ?
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| 21. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 09:32 pm |
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Quoting izah: What's a light or soft A? |
Light A or soft A is same as you pronounce A in the word dAte for example
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| 22. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 09:36 pm |
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i understand it is the same. But what is it? the a in date sounds as an e to me....
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| 23. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 09:41 pm |
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Quoting izah: Quoting caliptrix:
"Süleymaniye Camii'ne gitti"
"Gazete bayiine geldi"
"Şiir mısraını okudu" |
I do understand the last two (I forgot the second suffix gets a 'n' insteadof 'y')
But not the first sentence. Why: suleymanIYE ? |
I thought youare talking about "The Mosque Süleymaniye"
if it was a name:
Süleyman camiye gitti
Süleyman is subject
cami is a noun itself (not like what I explained some posts ago)
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| 24. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 09:43 pm |
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Quoting izah: i understand it is the same. But what is it? the a in date sounds as an e to me.... |
We don't have a tape, but really you can't understand or you want a special thing?
Don't you have an ear? When there is a treble/soft sound and when there is a bass/hard sound comes, you can easily understand.
Maybe you have heard soprano/tenor etc.
a is different from e
at has a
saat has a too but a bit near to e
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| 25. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 09:43 pm |
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Well,actually its sound like a mixture between A and E, which giving the A the light sound.
A in dAte is not same with A in cAr
The light or soft A is not in the Turkish letters,but it is in the Arabic letters.
So when a word Arabic origin and use the A letter,its sound would be normally soft,that is why we use the soft vowels with it when we add suffix.
Harf...harflEr
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| 26. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 10:14 pm |
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) fortunatly i have ears
But it's quite hard this. Of course i hear the difference betweensoprano and tenor (i call it high and law) but that sort of difference doesn't change the characteristics of the sound for me... Probably beacause in my own language (dutch) it won't.
And also i hear a big difference between the A of car and of date! For me their two totally different vowels. The car a is like the normal a in turkish (i suppose) and the date a sounds for me very close to the turksih (and dutch) e. (in dutch we write ee for this sound). I didnt know saat was pronounced like the a in date. For me saat sounds like a different sound, (in dutch we use aa for this as well) like yhe a in the french word 'a'.
Things like soft and light and high are not words i connect with the character of a sound... may be it depend on your motherthong how you hear/see this kind of things... (?) difficult and interesting all this!
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| 27. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 10:25 pm |
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Quoting izah: ) fortunatly i have ears
But it's quite hard this. Of course i hear the difference betweensoprano and tenor (i call it high and law) but that sort of difference doesn't change the characteristics of the sound for me... Probably beacause in my own language (dutch) it won't.
And also i hear a big difference between the A of car and of date! For me their two totally different vowels. The car a is like the normal a in turkish (i suppose) and the date a sounds for me very close to the turksih (and dutch) e. (in dutch we write ee for this sound). I didnt know saat was pronounced like the a in date. For me saat sounds like a different sound, (in dutch we use aa for this as well) like yhe a in the french word 'a'.
Things like soft and light and high are not words i connect with the character of a sound... may be it depend on your motherthong how you hear/see this kind of things... (?) difficult and interesting all this! |
We said "a bit lighter"!!!!!
A bit lighter "a".
Not like "date"!
But I think you are some bad at tongue movements. I already explained the difference.
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| 28. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 10:34 pm |
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Quoting caliptrix: We said "a bit lighter"!!!!!
A bit lighter "a".
Not like "date"!
But I think you are some bad at tongue movements. I already explained the difference. |
Relax!
Somebody who doesn't get the concept of a light "a", doesn't get the concept of "a bit lighter a" neither!
Has nothing to do with the movements of my tong but with the use of words to express sound differences.
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| 29. |
08 Sep 2007 Sat 11:19 pm |
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Heyyy,you can actually hear it,thanks to Fatih
Open the dictionaty,and search the word,and listen to the word pronunciation
İ guess you would get it better .
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| 30. |
09 Sep 2007 Sun 10:41 am |
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Quoting izah: Quoting caliptrix: We said "a bit lighter"!!!!!
A bit lighter "a".
Not like "date"!
But I think you are some bad at tongue movements. I already explained the difference. |
Relax!
Somebody who doesn't get the concept of a light "a", doesn't get the concept of "a bit lighter a" neither!
Has nothing to do with the movements of my tong but with the use of words to express sound differences. |
ok, sorry
you may try this for saat:
go here: http://www.turkishdictionary.net/?word=saat
click on play button on the center of the page
and listen
And try for "at" too:
http://www.turkishdictionary.net/?word=at
or you may want some different resources to listen.
Here is Seslisozluk: http://www.seslisozluk.com
if you get a free membership, you can listen the same words here:
saat: http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=saat
at: http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=at
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