this is an appeal to the western women.

please, dont betray us!

we are just fighting our way to the freedom and equality.

some of us have opened eyes from the darkness we were born to, where we were taught that we are less valuable than men.
where we are still not more than a simple cloth or furniture.
if we want to say anything from ourselves, they (the society) immediately condemn us for being rebels or disobeying the customs and traditions set by men and for men.
we are trapped in our culture, our men dont support us (even those who are educated and open-minded).

we dont ask you to do anything for us.
we just ask you to consider before clapping your hands toward traditions that opress us.
we know that you live in free societies where you enjoy your rights, but pretending that you are a loving person tolerating every culture does harm to us eastern women!

please, wear our shoes for a second then leave your ideas.

thank you for your cooperation!

At some point in time, during my travels, I learned what you are talking about. I realized that there are so many women who suffer in this world and I began to honor them by honoring my freedoms. For all the brave women in this world who have no voice...I pray that in the coming years the truth is seen by all and the wisdom of women prevails. Men of the East, wake up...a silent revolution is about to begin.

any other wesstern women?

alameda? azade? sera? semi western dilara?

or i cant count on traitors?

they are silent!
do they feel guilty?
did they feel they betray us?

or they still are blind?
do they care that we suffer?

or all they care is their eastern husbands/boyfriends they worship to keep with themselves and thus go against eastern women?

are they so heartless?

traitors are silent!

aniegma
thanks for your support!

Bravo femme! Yet another insightful post from an intelligent member!

I am sorry to say that this is a pointless thread Femme. People are far more concerned with being respectful to men, rather than defend women

To our dear Femme haters. It takes a brave person to stand up, speak up and say what they believe in and not give a damn what people think of you.

The problem is that, in general, people want an easy life. They want to feel sympathy but dont want to cause offence. They want a "cause" which means donating a small amount of money towards something to ease their conscience so they can forget about it again.

When you see something unjust, unfair and cruel for REAL you forget politeness - you just want ACTION FAST!. Bob Geldof reacted the same way and created LiveAid. His determination made him rude, insulting, demanding and arrogant....and he MADE A DIFFERENCE.

Thank God for people like that.

http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/wikifish/baby_with_the_bath_water?wpid=78331

cat,
i dont alienate anyone. they alienate themselves by their own choice.
every normal person seeks for a freedom, its a human nature.
but we have those who reject the freedom and choose slavery.

and by what means i alienate them if they have already sold themselves into slavery following their blind love?

your arguements are not based on anything strong but just showing off your "awaken feeling of justice" from time to time.

Perhaps I should follow Cat and Badia's example.....

LOVE YOU CAT, thanks for avoiding an argument..

Femme posted :
this is an appeal to the western women.

please, dont betray us!

we are just fighting our way to the freedom and equality.

some of us have opened eyes from the darkness we were born to, where we were taught that we are less valuable than men.
where we are still not more than a simple cloth or furniture.
if we want to say anything from ourselves, they (the society) immediately condemn us for being rebels or disobeying the customs and traditions set by men and for men.
we are trapped in our culture, our men dont support us (even those who are educated and open-minded).

we dont ask you to do anything for us.
we just ask you to consider before clapping your hands toward traditions that opress us.
we know that you live in free societies where you enjoy your rights, but pretending that you are a loving person tolerating every culture does harm to us eastern women!

please, wear our shoes for a second then leave your ideas.

thank you for your cooperation!

end of quote

Well I wore your shoes for a while today.
I have thought a great deal about what you have said. I read all the posts on the threads and other discussions from past threads with a similar theme. I wondered how any amount of discussions (some of which tend to descend into arguments) could help women in such a terrible predicament.
I thought about how inadequate I feel because I’m not the activist that so many women around the world are. I thought about my female friends from Turkey, Pakistan, India and Iraq (some with scarf, some without) and my female western friends (some tied to the kitchen sink and some not). I wrote many words, citing examples of how my non british origin friends are very strong women and how myself and my white british friends were raised by our parents in an intrinsically male dominated society. I think I was trying to say that women all over the world suffer, obviously some much more than others, depending on where they live. I have personal examples of how my own life has been affected, in the past, by men, both in the home and at work. But in the end I cut this short because none of it is relevant to the plight of the women referred to in the post.
I read the post again and noticed:
“we dont ask you to do anything for us.
we just ask you to consider before clapping your hands toward traditions that opress us.
we know that you live in free societies where you enjoy your rights, but pretending that you are a loving person tolerating every culture does harm to us eastern women!”

I want you to know that I would never clap my hands about such a serious predicament many women find themselves in (this is not an angry tone but a sincere one – I am giving you my assurance). I'm not an activist in the sense that I don't go on demonstrations or belong to some kind of society but I do speak up for the rights of women when the opportunity presents itself.
The very end of your post made me remember something that was once said to me many years ago. I was attending a course about the teaching of Religious Education (I am not an R.E. teacher though). The word ‘tolerate’ was discussed and the course leader warned that this word could be quite dangerous and went on to give an example of someone (I will not say who) whose beliefs/practices/views should not be tolerated. I have always remembered that and it was good to hear you say a similar thing.
I think people who stand up to be counted deserve admiration. Many women in history have put their lives on the line for women like me. And there are probably still women doing it today in eastern societies. I applaud them.
These words don’t seem enough somehow.

Very well said peace train.

Yes, well done peace train!

Thanks for the positive comments but they really weren’t necessary.
I wish I knew how to quote people’s comments when there’s no quote button  can somebody out there help? Anyway, forgive my crude attempt at quoting people here.
Quoting Aenigma III
“To our dear Femme haters. It takes a brave person to stand up, speak up and say what they believe in and not give a damn what people think of you. “
End of quote
Oh dear I am lecturing you again Aenigma (but I do it with a broad smile on my face, knowing it will make you reach for the cream bun gun . Aenigma, your comment is true, but only if what the person has to say is not loaded with cynicism, arrogance and barbed comments designed only to cause an argument rather than meaningful discussion. If people aren’t careful and don’t “give a damn” then they run the risk of not being taken seriously when they have something heartfelt to say. Hmmm. . . I better be careful, I am sounding arrogant . I better duck as I feel treacle pudding is aimed at my head . “Smart Alec” comments are ten a penny but sincere heartfelt comments are worth their weight in gold as they truly make people think. Thank you Femme.

Quoting Aenigma III
“The problem is that, in general, people want an easy life. They want to feel sympathy but don’t want to cause offence. They want a "cause" which means donating a small amount of money towards something to ease their conscience so they can forget about it again.”

End of quote.

That’s a HUGE ASSUMPTION to make and an easy, cynical throw away comment that many people have made before you. Have you not heard the TESCO catch phrase? “Every little helps” . Of course if the charities weren’t set up in the first place there would be nowhere to send all those millions of small amounts of money . . . silly charitable organizations! What must they have been thinking! Shame on them for trying to extract money from poor unsuspecting, unconsious Joe Public. Oh and shame on the young children who “Children in Need” and “Comic Relief” then send their small amount (huge to them) of pocket money in. People who give money to good causes aren’t forced to do so, they make a choice, for whatever reason and however small the amount, it does make a difference.

Quoting Aenigma III

“When you see something unjust, unfair and cruel for REAL you forget politeness - you just want ACTION FAST!. Bob Geldof reacted the same way and created LiveAid. His determination made him rude, insulting, demanding and arrogant....and he MADE A DIFFERENCE. “
End of quote
You are right, sometimes “you just want ACTION FAST!” and he used his fame in a good way and he is still doing it today . . . he has to because he knows that a steady drip of cash is required to keep the charity fund topped up and he is grateful for every penny, whatever the sentiment (or lack of it as you seem to think in some cases) attached.

You may think this is a personal attack on your views Aenigma but it really isn’t. It’s not your views that bother me, it’s the way you sometimes put them across. The irony is you get so touchy with people when they use the same argumentative tactics as yourself.
I wonder if you ever watch the Catherine Tate show . . . there is a character she created and she plays the game “last hit” . . . well when I watch that, I think of you and your friends and SOME (some . . . I say some of your squabbles. Yes I know that they are not all squabbles.

I think I’ve added a pinch cynicism, a dash of arrogance and a grain of sarcasm. All done purposefully, just to show how easy such negative tactics can be produced. Thanks for the flowers, but they really weren’t necessary. I think you got completely the wrong end of the stick from our recent exchange of words.

Qutoing Aenigma III
Thank God for people like that.
God!
End of quote

Is there something you’re not telling us?

Hope you are recovering well from your illness.

I feel a Catherine Tate moment approaching but this time you may be armed with cream bun gun . . . just remember Aenigma . . . all of the above is “friendly fire”

I got carried away with the Catherine Tate sketches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNBI1JCAbnU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEX5PqvP6zE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W25NIKR8IwM


Addendum: Dear TC Police. Hope this post doesn’t offend you or contravene any rules. I'm trying to make friends (I think).

Dearest Peacetrain,
Thank you for your long and somewhat rambling reply to my post! You have your opinion and I have mine - why should you think I would attack you for it? Criticising my view is NOT personal - you cannot "personally criticise" somebody elses views!!!!

With regard to Femme, agree or disagree (I am sure she doesn't give a damn!). You can choose not to read her posts or you can argue your point. However for a couple of members to launch some ridiculous "campaign" to ask people to vote if she should be deleted is childish and weak!

Thank you for all the time and trouble you are spending on me lately

Yes I feel much better today thank you

AEnigma
(PS I am sure I know you from somewhere - did you used to use a different name? )

cat,
thank you for your rich and thoughtful (historical) contribution to this thread!

Warmest greetings AEnigma!
Hehehe you sussed me so soon! I am well known amongst my friends for my rambling. I would like to think it comes with old age but it is an affliction I have had for many years. When my now grown up daughter was very young and used to get tired of my chattering to friends in the supermarket, she would load my hand held shopping basket with the largest cans of pet food she could find. My favourite line is “why use one word when one hundred will do”. I admit it . . . I talk far too much.

Senility may have also developed a certain slowness in my brain because I’m not sure I understand the last sentence of your first paragraph, although it is heartening to see you still have a plethora of exclamation marks.

About Femme, I am quite sure you a right, she won’t give a damn – I wasn’t trying to impress her or get her to give a damn. With regard to the people trying to get rid of Femme . . . they are mindless and I don’t THINK I referred to them or made any comment agreeing with them. I KNOW I didn’t and I wouldn’t agree with such action, not that Femme would care about my view of course

You are welcome to my time and trouble, it’s the least I can do. I’m not in a position to donate cash to the A.E.N.I.G.M.A. charitable organisation (All England Noisy Individuals and Granny Mauling Association) so I give my time to you instead. It proves my commitment to the cause is genuine he he he. I put in the reference to my being a Granny (it’s true, I am a granny, you can tell by the way I ramble) to try and get some sympathy .

I don’t think you will know me. I joined the site but was very naive and used my real name, which produced lots of unwanted pm s from young men, so I changed it about 2 weeks later. If you are suspicious about who I am, no need to be, what you see is what you get . . . yes I know you can’t see me, it’s just a figure of speech as you know.

On the subject of names, nice one. . . AEnigma.

And before you say it yourself, I'm sure you did choose your name purposefully.

Lots of love
x

Hahahah, you are really funny now. How am I in a position of a looser? :-S
I didn't dig anything to show that you and enigma used to argue (as opposed to agree on everything ), I quoted it because it's relevant and I agree with it!
It also shows that you used to have some unbiased opinions...

Quoting AEnigma !!! (sorry III)
“OMG! Your are writing me long personal letters now canim?”

Don’t promote me dear. I know you said you thought you knew me from somewhere but that’s ridiculous. I am assuming OMG refers to God because of your previous exclamations :
"God!" and " Thank God . . ."

Are you sure there’s nothing you want to tell us?

I have no wish to pm you because I want to liiiiiiiiiive , I tell you I WANT TO LIIIIIIIIIVE .

Quoting AEnigmaIII
“You are quite happy doing it because you know we wont get angry”

AEnigma . . . I told you why I was doing it. It was an experiment to show you we can all do what you and you ‘gang’ do.
Quoting AEnigma III
“ but you are merely doing the same thing - but in different camps.”
Ah . . . the penny drops at last. Yes, I told you I was doing it just for the sake of it, to show how easy it is to do the same thing. As for camps . . . I’m not in any camp . . . I just wanted to have a discussion about discussion.

Hey we all make mistakes, we all contradict ourselves, we all change our views and we all “meet ourselves coming backwards” at times in our quest to try and win an argument. We all want to be right, we all want to be the ones to speak the most profound words and yes, deep down, we all seek acceptance in some way (ok forget Femme

One thing we all need to remember though . . . here we are . . . a bunch of females (I am making an assumption here) “arguing “ amongst ourselves. Some guys out there are going to be rubbing their hands with glee. We are doing a pretty good job on ourselves and they don’t need to lift one little oppressive finger. Maybe we should read again those first few words by Femme at the beginning of this thread. I think we shot ourselves in the feet girls.

AEnigma, I’m sorry it looks like I’m having a go at you only, but I have tried to make reference to your wider group too. You just happened to be there and, well, you’re thick skinned enough to take it and think nothing of it aren’t you?

Just to show you I am sincere, I will not answer you again. You can use your cream bun gun as much as you like . . . but please, take the flapjack out first, it leaves nasty red marks.

Ooops, another long letter. I can talk the hind legs off a donkey. Just one request:

WILL YOU PLEEEEAAAAASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW TO QUOTE PEOPLE WHEN THE WORD QUOTE IS NOT AVAILABLE?

Please have pity on this rambling granny and let her in on this secret.

Thanks Girleegirl but, unfortunately, the quote button seems to have disappeared from each person's post. That's why I have been having difficulty. No quote button. I know how to use it when it's there but it's disappeared for some reason.

Thanks anyway

This is pure entertainment! Has AEnigma at last found her match? May be ELIZABETH WHERE ARE YOU, this should be a news report!!!

Funny how one perceives sense of humour, and does this prove that age matures the sense of humour? AEnigma never seems to get mine either.

Oh well my left over turkey curry is ready!

Girleegirl, you are getting confused in your old age, someone, not of our advanced years, has already served the turkey curry. You silleegirl.

Quoting peace train: Quoting peace train: Thanks Girleegirl but, unfortunately, the quote button seems to have disappeared from each person's post. That's why I have been having difficulty. No quote button. I know how to use it when it's there but it's disappeared for some reason. Thanks anyway somebody is playing tricks on me girleegirl. The quote buttons have all reappeared!

peace train, can you be more laconic and speak right to the point?

Femme how can I get to the point when I can't find it. I have dementia.

Truly sorry Girleegirl . . . didn't mean to offend.

These are short . . it's nearly 7pm.


as shakespeare said:
"and the rest is silence"

Alameda, wow - I hope you're not saying that it's ok for women to be abused and discriminated because they are smaller...
How can you say that it's only males who enjoy sex?
Yes, males can get away with no responsibility from raising children. Women can also if they want.

Look, the problem is that women are less educated then men, make less money and have less power in the society. If these things were equal, we'd demand more equality, but for now, it's them who decide about our rights and freedom. That is also teh case in the West! (for example in the US parliment, women make up only 16%)
What do you say to a woman whose family condemns her because her husband rapes her? Do you say - "be useful" or "fight for your freedom"?

catwoman said: "Alameda, wow - I hope you're not saying that it's ok for women to be abused and discriminated because they are smaller.."

Of course not....

catwoman said: "How can you say that it's only males who enjoy sex?"

That's not what I said, read again.

catwoman said: "Yes, males can get away with no responsibility from raising children. Women can also if they want."

Yes, it's possible, but they still have a belly full. Men don't.

catwoman said: "Look, the problem is that women are less educated then men, make less money and have less power in the society. If these things were equal, we'd demand more equality, but for now, it's them who decide about our rights and freedom. That is also the case in the West! (for example in the US parliment, women make up only 16%)"

Yes, women are less educated. That is a big problem. Why is that? Maybe the tactics being used thus far are not working as well as we may like?

catwoman said: "What do you say to a woman whose family condemns her because her husband rapes her? Do you say - "be useful" or "fight for your freedom"?

People don't do things that make shame in society. What needs to happen is the consciousness needs to be raised as to why that is wrong.

Raising consciousness is the way to fight for one's freedom. Showing and proving the worth of the female contribution and value to society is what I see as the way to fight.

Shame in society

Shame is considered one aspect of socialization in all societies.

Shame is enshrouded in legal precedent as a pillar of punishment and ostensible correction.

Shame has been linked to narcissism in the psychoanalytic literature. It is one of the most intense emotions. The individual experiencing shame may feel totally despicable, worthless and feel that there is no redemption.

According to the anthropologist Ruth Benedict, cultures may be classified by their emphasis of using either shame or guilt to regulate the social activities of their members.


I'm pointing out the realities of the situation catwoman. Read again. You didn't get it. What I stated is the base reality of the situation.

Interesting......the same quoting methods as peace pipe!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W25NIKR8IwM

... oh dear, I am more and more confused. So why exactly did you mention artificial insemination of cows then, if it was unrelated to human sexual relationships?

If it is anything like artificial insemination of women, I can assure you that men do not "get their pleasure" having to produce sperm in a hospital into a little plastic cup!!!!

What's happened to that site? It seems every time I find some time to catch up with what used to be my fav discussion board, I see nothing but attacks, hate and aggressive posts!

What's the thing with promoting western way of life? Is it really the only just way there is? Are no oppressed women in the "civilised" countries? Are the eastern women all poor little creatures who cannot speak for themselves and desperately yearn for a western messiah (what the female version of messiah would be?) to make them as happy as their western counterparts?

I just wonder what do those who shout the loudest really do to help women who are being oppressed worldwide apart from being noisy and quarrelsome? How many women have they really helped?

Have you seen Monty Python's "The Life of Brian?" There's a resistance movement whose basic task is to postulate changes but they actually do nothing. Seems it's pretty the same here.

I'm far from praising eastern culture but I see bad things in the western one too. And I do believe that if you really want to make a change you should start with your own backyard. Moreover, I don't like the idea of helping people against their will. Sorry, life is brutal and, more often than not, if you're unable to stand up for yourself, nobody else will. It's not true that women have less chances than men. It is rather that they don't want to fight for what's theirs. each one of us has the life we have agreed to have.

Some links for those interested in finding some good groups to support:

Mor Çatı - a refuge project - website in Turkish

Mother Child Education Foundation - English

Woman Entrepreneurs Association of Turkey - English

Street Kids Rehabilitation Association - click on the menu on the left for English

The 0-18 project - helping stop beatings of kids and working for childrens rights

Article in Turkish about Azize Ethem winning award for her projects with local women in İznik - her dolls are available from Deli Kızın Yeri in the Grand Bazaar

List of all the civil organisations in my borough - Kadıköy - who are working to improve the status of women

I hope these are useful to those who have p.m.ed me to ask for more info.

Something else that I think every woman should be taught at an early age, is an appropriate martial art such as Aikido or Judo.

When I was very young, my father taught me some basic techniques of Judo. His lessons proved valuable and most probably life saving teachings. Later in life as a young adult, I studied Aikido.

These martial arts teach a way of being that helps to keep one out of a dangerous situation. In my travels, I've always taught what my father taught me to other women. Hopefully it has been some help.

These particular martial arts are good for women as they don't use physical strength, but rather awareness and methods of redirection.

Edit to add more:

The teacher (Sensei) taught us, the attackers attacks with the mind first. We were taught to feel an attack before it was manifested physically, thus enabling us to get out of the way, or redirect the attack. We were taught to develop the state of Mushin

I dont know if it is quite relevant but I think that what alameda was trying to point out on the previous post was the different extend of responsibility that women have against men in some areas due to the circle of nature....yes women can enjoy sex and yes women can keep a child or not but in general I think the point was that wanting it or not women have more responsibilities that make them (although smaller in body or physical force) stronger in some areas....

my point of view is that there should be a balance in everything....I completely dislike career women that have unfortunately developed in my country as well that neglect their men or families but at the same time I sympathise all the women that suffer under the pressure of barbarian men that torture them physically or psychologically (which is quite common in western culture as well)

I would like my man to be stronger than me in order to protect me (not only literraly) as I like me role as a woman and detest castrated men but I think that in everything there should be a balance....

It is easy in words to protest and rebel and try to make other people go against something that is mainly accepted in a culture but when trying to put it in action it may be difficult....Actions like these should start mainly from the core of the problem (that would be Pakistan or Iraq or Turkey) rather than playing philosophers while sitting on our couches....

Furthermore it is very difficult to understand one's culture unless been brought up with it.

I dont want all these to be taken the wrong way I am not attacking anyone and I enjoy all conversations...and I really find this specific on a very interesting conversation but I just try to be a bit realistic....

First of all I would like to comment the initial posting in this thread: I will do my best to not betray women that are fighting their way to freedom and equality wherever that might be. Further more I wish us all the best in our struggle because I know that we somehow share the struggle (though my personal suffering for sure might be less than many others) as part of the overall struggle against opression of any kind in this world, whether it is opression based on power structures of sex, class, race, sexuality or physical ability to mention some. I might disagree with your methods as you might disagree with my methods, That is not the main issue and the opressors could not be happier than seeing the opressed ones fight among themselves...

I have been away for a long time and I only come here eventually and try to get a picture of what is going on. I love TC and many of the persons I met here and I think that many of the discussions, although sometimes a bit rough and hush (however that is spelled), have enrichened my own knowledge and way of thinking. I think we should neither take ourselves to serious nor subestimate the significance of these discussions. We are never the same coming out of a discussion, whether we are angry as hell or laughing out loud.

I will add two Bertolt Brecht quotes I find brilliant:

"Because things are the way they are, things will not stay the way they are."

The other one I can´t find in english so I do my own poor and free translation:
"...the side on which the fighters are more tired will lose the battle."

I hope it will not be our side!

...suddenly I feel so tired...