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Difference between gelse/gelirse ?
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20. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 03:13 pm |
Quoting AlphaF: For all practical purposes..."Konusmasan" expresses a wish, and "konusmazsan" relates to a condition. |
konusmaşan (V + -se/-sa) also is used for condition.
it's called "dilek-şart" (wish & condition).
it's sounds like wish when you refer to the future and hipothetical condition towards the past.
konuşmasan iyi olacak/olur
= it's better if you don't talk
= I suggest you not talk
= I wish you don't talk
konuşmasan iyi olacaktı/olurdu
= it would better if you didn't talk (but you talked)
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21. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 03:17 pm |
Quoting si++: Quoting AlphaF: For all practical purposes..."Konusmasan" expresses a wish, and "konusmazsan" relates to a condition. |
konusmaşan (V + -se/-sa) also is used for condition.
it's called "dilek-şart" (wish & condition).
it's sounds like wish when you refer to the future and hipothetical condition towards the past.
konuşmasan iyi olacak/olur
= it's better if you don't talk
= I suggest you not talk
= I wish you don't talk
konuşmasan iyi olacaktı/olurdu
= it would better if you didn't talk (but you talked)
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IN BOTH OF YOUR EXAMPLES,"KONUSMASAN" IS USED TO EXPRESS A WISH..REGARDLESS OF THE TENSE.
WHAT EXACTLY IS YOUR POINT?
Konusmasan iyi olacak = Dilerim ki, konusmazsin.
Konusmasan iyi olacakti = Konusmamani dilerdim.
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22. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 03:23 pm |
Quoting AlphaF: Quoting si++: Quoting AlphaF: For all practical purposes..."Konusmasan" expresses a wish, and "konusmazsan" relates to a condition. |
konusmaşan (V + -se/-sa) also is used for condition.
it's called "dilek-şart" (wish & condition).
it's sounds like wish when you refer to the future and hipothetical condition towards the past.
konuşmasan iyi olacak/olur
= it's better if you don't talk
= I suggest you not talk
= I wish you don't talk
konuşmasan iyi olacaktı/olurdu
= it would better if you didn't talk (but you talked)
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IN BOTH OF YOUR EXAMPLES,"KONUSMASAN" IS USED TO EXPRESS A WISH..REGARDLESS OF THE TENSE.
WHAT EXACTLY IS YOUR POINT? |
No my second example is a condition which is my point.
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23. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 03:26 pm |
Check my post above, again. I revised it, so you can understand.
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24. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 03:34 pm |
OK I rephrase my latest statement.
My second example can be a wish but can also be a condition depending on the context (that's why its name is dilek-şart). It's not only a wish (dilek) but also a condition (şart).
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25. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 03:54 pm |
Your examples both express a wish.
The first is a direct wish. The second relates to something that happened in the past, an action that will not yield to any condition imposed in present.
A good example to "sart" would have been
UCAGA BINERSE, YETISIR. which is a conditional statement, independent from speaker's own wishes.
I shall not reply to further comments.
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26. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 04:06 pm |
Quoting AlphaF: A good example to "sart" would have been
UCAGA BINERSE, YETISIR. which is a conditional statement, independent from speaker's own wishes.
I shall not reply to further comments. |
I thought we were talking about V+ -se/-sa. Your example is something different (V+AORIST ise) which is not "dilek-şart".
To make it "dilek-şart" you need to remove the aorist part:
UCAGA BINSE, YETISIR.
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27. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 04:17 pm |
Another difference:
Konuşmazsan is a birleşik zaman, the geniş zamanın şartı of the şart birleşik çekimi. Konuşmasan is not a birleşik zaman at all!
Türkçe'de GERÇEK şart cümleler (şart cümler! istek veya dilek cümle değil) bu biçimlerde yapılır. Zaman anlamı vardır, önce şart cümlesi, sonra temel cümle kullanılır.
Geniş zamanın şartı: geniş zamanla ilgili bir hareketi başka bir hareketnin yapılmasına/yapılmamasına şartı koştuğumuzu anlatmak için kullanılır.
- Biz geziye gitmezsek, siz de gidemezsiniz.
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28. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 06:21 pm |
Quoting Deli_kizin: Türkçe'de GERÇEK şart cümleler (şart cümler! istek veya dilek cümle değil) bu biçimlerde yapılır. |
Is this your own writing or did you copy and paste it from anywhere?
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29. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 06:35 pm |
Quoting caliptrix:
Is this your own writing or did you copy and paste it from anywhere? |
I took it from my half turkish/half english notes I took last year in Turkish course. They are based upon a grammar book used in EGE Üniversitesi for Turkish Language and Literature, but I dont have that book near me now. After monday Ill have some free time again and Ill have a look in that book to see what it says for only se-sa.
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30. |
19 Jan 2008 Sat 08:06 pm |
maybe this lesson can help you to understand Conditionals in turkish language from my friend Yasmeen
1-Factual conditionals with if+ present tense in the if clause -present tense in the main clause. Factual condtionals express facts which are true when certain conditions are met.
Çalışırsan sınavı kazanırsın =İf you study, you win the exam.
if you eat spinach, you get iron in your diet
İf+ present present
Acording to this sentence, it is a fact that people get iron in their diet when they eat spinach.
2- Future conditionals with if + present tense in the if clause-future tense in the main clause. Future conditionals express facts which may be true in the future.
Yarışmayı kazanırsam, ödül alacağım.= İf i win competition, i will take reward.
3-Hypothetical conditionals with if+past tense in the if clause-would+ the simple form of the verb in the main clause. Hypothetical conditionals express facts
which are not likely to be true, but which is possible.
Çalışsa , sınavı kazanırdı.
(geniş zaman=simple present) (simple present tense in the past tense.=geniş zamanın geçmişi)
if they ate spinach, they would get iron in their diet.
İf + past would+ simple form
Acording to this sentence, it is not likely that they will eat their spinach; however, it is possible. İf they eat their spinach, they will get iron in their diet.
4-(A) Counterfactual conditionals with I with if +were (or sometimes other verbs in past tense) in the if clause-would+ the simple form of the verb in the main clause.
Counterfactual conditionals I sentences express gacts which are untrue in the present.
Burada olsaydı, ıspanak yerdi.
(geçmiş zaman-past tense) (geniş zamanın geçmişi-simple present tense in the past tense)
İf here were here, he would eat this spinach
İf+ were would+simple form
Acording to this sentence, he is not here (if he were here= he is not here) Therefore,he will not eat the spinach.
(B) Counterfactual conditionals II with if + past perfect in the if clause-would have+ past participle in main clause. Counterfactual conditional II sentences express
facts which are untrue in the past.
Çalışsaydı sınavı kazanacaktı. = if he had worked, he would have won the exam.
(geçmiş zaman-past tense) (gelecek zamanın geçmişi-future tense in the past tense)
İf they had eaten their spinach, they would have gotten iron their diet.
IF + past perfect would have + past participle
According to this sentence, they did not eat their spinach (if they had eaten their spinach= they did not eat their spinach), so they did not get iron in their diet.
The truth value of these conditional sentence types can be summarized as follows
True- Factual conditionals
Possibly true in the future -Future conditionals
Less possible true in the future- Hypothetical condtionals
Untrue- Counterfactual conditionals
5- First past tense then conditional (se-sa) is used
- to talk about events that we do not know if they happened in the past
Çalışmadıysa, sınavı kazanamayacak.
(past tense+se-sa) (future tense)
(He did not study so he will not be able to win the exam)
-to talk about events that we know they absolutely happened in the past.
Ne yaptıysam sizin için yaptım.
(Whatever i did, i did for you)
Bir kitabını aldıysam ne olur.
(İ took a book of you. What is wrong with it ? )
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