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AK Parti stopped-no head scarves
(38 Messages in 4 pages - View all)
1 2 3 4
1.       KeithL
1455 posts
 05 Jun 2008 Thu 07:39 pm

I hope Erdogan receives this clear message for secularism...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7438348.stm

2.       caliptrix
3055 posts
 05 Jun 2008 Thu 08:15 pm

I hope this post goes to "politics" section of the forum

3.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 05 Jun 2008 Thu 09:17 pm

Moved

4.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 06 Jun 2008 Fri 01:51 am

bad news for America and Europe!!! This makes the closure of akp even more certain. How will bush save his puppet tayyip now???

5.       catwoman
8933 posts
 06 Jun 2008 Fri 04:13 am

Unbelievable! How exactly is this threatening secularism?

6.       CANLI
5084 posts
 06 Jun 2008 Fri 04:25 am

When women have the permission to wear headscarves in UNİ
The number of educated women will be increased
And that İS a threat

7.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 06 Jun 2008 Fri 05:42 am

Quoting CANLI:

When women have the permission to wear headscarves in UNİ
The number of educated women will be increased
And that İS a threat




and when will women be allowed in mosques with headscarf (let alone without it)?

Adam25 liked this message
8.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 06 Jun 2008 Fri 09:11 am

I don't think a headscarf is what makes a country secular. Yet, I believe it was Erdinc who gave quite sensible reasons of why scarves are a problem. To me it seems people should be free to wear headscarves, crosses or turbans - whatever they like.

Still, I see no relation between education and headscarves. If I cared about education, I'd know that being religious is not about scarves. Somebody wrote a while ago that Muslims can pretend not to be Muslims in case of life threatening situations. Taking off a scarf doesn't say "I'm not Muslim" it just says I obey my country's law first. And I think that's what Ataturk wanted to achieve by secularism - country comes before religion.

9.       white-wolf
55 posts
 06 Jun 2008 Fri 11:30 am

I think our "Anayasa Mahkemesi" says that :

"Başı kapalılar" / Girls with headscarves you will not go universities. You will sit at home. No education for you. You are "Hizmetci" and "Köylü", you will stay as servant and villager. Never mind to get educated. Stay "Cahil".

10.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 06 Jun 2008 Fri 12:46 pm

This decision is a rape of the constitution by The Constitutional Court!!

11.       teaschip
3870 posts
 06 Jun 2008 Fri 08:27 pm

Quoting CANLI:

When women have the permission to wear headscarves in UNİ
The number of educated women will be increased
And that İS a threat



I'm sorry Canli, that sounds so sad...If a women refuses to get an education because she can't wear a headscarf in university, this is indeed a loss for women. Principles and beliefs are one thing, but were talking a headscarf vs education.

12.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 02:20 am

Quoting tamikidakika:


and when will women be allowed in mosques with headscarf (let alone without it)?



Are you serious ?!
Are your women not allowed in mosques even with headscarves?!!
You dont allow women to pray in mosques too ?!!!
We here are allowed with or without headscarves !

13.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 02:34 am

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting tamikidakika:


and when will women be allowed in mosques with headscarf (let alone without it)?



Are you serious ?!
Are your women not allowed in mosques even with headscarves?!!
You dont allow women to pray in mosques too ?!!!
We here are allowed with or without headscarves !




since when have women been allowed to pray together with men in mosques?? do you do that in Egypt? if so we must adopt that, but I have doubts. and can you show me a picture of woman praying in a mosque without headscarf? hahhaa that sounds suicidal to me.

14.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 02:37 am

Quoting teaschip:



I'm sorry Canli, that sounds so sad...If a women refuses to get an education because she can't wear a headscarf in university, this is indeed a loss for women. Principles and beliefs are one thing, but were talking a headscarf vs education.


Actually,i both agree and disagree with you tea
İ agree that,it İS a loss for women,and i disagree on headscarf is different than Principles and beliefs,if it is an order from ALLAH then it is part of beliefs

STİLL,there is a principle in İslam called something like ' not harmful and not being harmed'
So i believe women should get educated by all means,even if that means they would take off scarves at UNİ
Then they can have voices to express what they want,they would be more stronger to force their will,and not letting men dectating it upon them
İ dont mean it as feminin issue,but heck...its MY hair,and only ME who would say i cover it or not
Not by parents,not by partner and CERTAİNLY not by government !
My OWN government !

15.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 02:48 am

Quoting tamikidakika:



since when have women been allowed to pray together with men in mosques?? do you do that in Egypt? if so we must adopt that, but I have doubts. and can you show me a picture of woman praying in a mosque without headscarf? hahhaa that sounds suicidal to me.



Since when ?!
Since forever hee hee
What are you talking about ?!

Women were praying in Rasul mosque in Madinna while Rasul SAV were alive!
And yes,sure we do that in Egypt
At some mosque there are special places for women to pray,and at another there is not
İn the ones with no special places for women to pray,at pray time,women pray behinde men's lines
İf it is not pray times 'not right after ezan' women who want to pray can pray any where at the mosque
Who would dare to say no dont pray to anyone?!!!

And yes women without headscarves pray too,but SURELY not without headscarves
Some bring their own headscarves and wear it in mosques at praying times,and some use the ones available by the mosque administrations
Not wearing headscarves doesnt mean that they dont pray you know !

lol,do you want me to show you pictures of women praying at mosques ?!
Who would go to mosque at praying times with a camera and take pictures of the women praying there?!
İf for nothing....do you think in time like this we dont have honorable men in Egypt enough to stop such ?!
Would you accept it there ?!

16.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 03:00 am

Quoting CANLI:



Since when ?!
Since forever hee hee
What are you talking about ?!

Women were praying in Rasul mosque in Madinna while Rasul SAV were alive!
And yes,sure we do that in Egypt
At some mosque there are special places for women to pray,and at another there is not
İn the ones with no special places for women to pray,at pray time,women pray behinde men's lines



That`s why I said "together". praying in a cage like room behind the man that is seen by no one doesn`t mean praying together.

Quoting CANLI:



And yes women without headscarves pray too,but SURELY not without headscarves
Some bring their own headscarves and wear it in mosques at praying times,and some use the ones available buy the mosque administrations
Not wearing headscarves doesnt mean that they dont pray you know ! lol,do you want me to show you pictures of women praying at mosques ?!



Please don`t skip the details in my post to make your argument more credible. I asked whether women can pray in mosques without headscarf or not, and the answer is NO!!! If the women who want to pray without headscarf can not get into mosques why should the women with headscarf be allowed to get into universities. If they want respect for their religious values they should first show some respect for the civil values stated by the government. People show respect for the values of mosque and cover their body when getting into a mosque whether they are believers or not. Why can`t you learn the same degree of respect and put your headscarf off when getting into universities?

17.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 03:28 am

Quoting tamikidakika:



That`s why I said "together". praying in a cage like room behind the man that is seen by no one doesn`t mean praying together..




Cage ?!
Please pick your language !
Cages are for animals!

You dont show respect to others to talk about it!
At this point,i have nothing to say to you,right or wrong what you've said,actually i do NOT care !
Show respect first,then debat later !



18.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 03:31 am

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting tamikidakika:



That`s why I said "together". praying in a cage like room behind the man that is seen by no one doesn`t mean praying together..




Cage ?!
Please pick your language !
Cages are for animals!

You dont show respect to others to talk about it!
At this point,i have nothing to say to you,right or wrong what you've said,actually i do NOT care !
Show respect first,then debat later !





sure you`re free not to answer if you are not able to refute my argument.

19.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 03:41 am

Quoting tamikidakika:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting tamikidakika:



That`s why I said "together". praying in a cage like room behind the man that is seen by no one doesn`t mean praying together..




Cage ?!
Please pick your language !
Cages are for animals!

You dont show respect to others to talk about it!
At this point,i have nothing to say to you,right or wrong what you've said,actually i do NOT care !
Show respect first,then debat later !



sure you`re free not to answer if you are not able to refute my argument.



Look,im not a child to fall for that,read my post again,and if you dont understand have it translated to you !
İts OUTRAGEOUS calling women who are praying for their God animals !
İf you dont believe in God its your business,but have respect for the ones who do !

İf you want respect give respect !

And if you dont give respect,then we have nothing to talk about !

20.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 04:00 am

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting tamikidakika:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting tamikidakika:



That`s why I said "together". praying in a cage like room behind the man that is seen by no one doesn`t mean praying together..




Cage ?!
Please pick your language !
Cages are for animals!

You dont show respect to others to talk about it!
At this point,i have nothing to say to you,right or wrong what you've said,actually i do NOT care !
Show respect first,then debat later !



sure you`re free not to answer if you are not able to refute my argument.



Look,im not a child to fall for that,read my post again,and if you dont understand have it translated to you !
İts OUTRAGEOUS calling women who are praying for their God animals !
İf you dont belive in God its your business,but you must respect other's choices too

İf you want respect give respect !

And if you dont give respect,then we have nothing to talk about !




Look who is talking about respect. When did I say don`t believe in God? Who are you to judge me over my faith in God? You know very well that I didn`t mean to call the women praying behind men animals, I didn`t even think you could make such an interpretation, and your interpretation doesn`t have to represent what I actually intended to say. So what should I be more respectful for? Im already respectful.

So can you stop accusing me of silly things to avoid arguing with me because you can`t refute any of my arguments?

If you don`t have anything to put forth about what I said about the headscarf decision, this will be my last post in this topic. My argument is there. you can try to refute it or else if you can`t you can go on making cacophony.


21.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 04:32 am

Quoting tamikidakika:



Look who is talking about respect. When did I say don`t believe in God? Who are you to judge me over my faith in God?


Actually,you did !
That is what i understood from you over old PM as i believe
Maybe i got it wrong then,STİLL
İf you believe in God or not its your own business not mine,as i said in my post if you read it again
Where have i judged you about your faith then,huh ?!

Quoting tamikidakika:


You know I didn`t mean to call the women praying behind men animals, I didn`t even think you could make such an interpretation, and your interpretation doesn`t have to represent what I actually intended to say. So what should I be more respectful for? Im already respectful.


İ dont know anything,as you just stated,i dont know you !
And even if you didnt mean it,you could have simply said so
İ wasnt the one who used the word CAGE in my post,and refused even to say i didnt mean it that way !

Quoting tamikidakika:


So can you stop accusing me of silly things to avoid arguing with me because you can`t refute any of my arguments?

If you don`t have anything to put forth about what I said about the headscarf decision, this will be my last post in this topic. My argument is there. you can try to refute it or else if you can`t you can go on making cacophony.


İ dont make excuses to avoide an argument or debat,and everyone here knows that,but also i dont debat when i feel lack of respect,and everyone here knows that too !
So actually,you cant accuse me of that !

Using the word Cage while talking about women praying for their God,is not what we can call it respect for those women,can we ?!
İf you dont mean it that way,you could have simply said so,is it that hard ?!

22.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 01:49 pm

I'm sorry but I find it ridiculous that men and women cant pray in the same room. It is as if the presence of a woman will disturb the cleanliness and the sacredness of a man's prayer. Glad to hear that Egypt is a bit ahead and lets them pray in the same room, hopefully the same will be extended to namaz-times as well.

23.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 02:10 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

I'm sorry but I find it ridiculous that men and women cant pray in the same room. It is as if the presence of a woman will disturb the cleanliness and the sacredness of a man's prayer. Glad to hear that Egypt is a bit ahead and lets them pray in the same room, hopefully the same will be extended to namaz-times as well.


İts not in Egypt,its how Muslims pray.
Normally mosques are divided to two places,Men's place and women's place
We have our libraries,we have our bathroom 'water supplies' for abdest,we have everything there as men's have,and we all pray after same İmam
Just women part is smaller than men's part,because men's numbers who attend mosques are bigger than women's numbers
İf there is no such place at the mosque for women to pray,so women can pray at same place with men behinde their lines.

The point has nothing to do with cleanliness and the sacredness,but yes its about disturbance for both sides.

24.       alameda
3499 posts
 07 Jun 2008 Sat 05:18 pm

Quoting tamikidakika:

Quoting CANLI:

When women have the permission to wear headscarves in UNİ
The number of educated women will be increased
And that İS a threat




and when will women be allowed in mosques with headscarf (let alone without it)?



I'm curious what your experience has been regarding women in mosques. From my experience in Turkey, women have no problem going to mosques. Sometimes there is a balcony where women look down on the proceedings, other times there is simply a raised platform, or the women are in behind the men during prayers. During talks women are on one side of the room and the men are on the other side.

In Morocco and some other places women don't go or are discouraged from mosque attendance. I have a friend from Afghanistan, who told me women can't go to mosques. It would be interesting to have a survey of this, don't you think?

It is quite sad and contrary the teachings and practice of what happened during time of Mohammad (pbuh), as many women were in the mosques during his time.

I know the type of Mosques you talk about. Unfortunately there are, in my opinion, too many places where the women are given a not so nice room to pray and learn. They have to try to hear the sermon over a not so good PA system. It's disheartening to say the least, and very counterproductive.

25.       cynicmystic
567 posts
 14 Jun 2008 Sat 04:23 am

I am glad to see that there isn't much activity under this thread after what France did with their students wishing to wear their turbans to class...

What happened to the European standards of secularism???

26.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 14 Jun 2008 Sat 10:48 am

Quoting cynicmystic:

I am glad to see that there isn't much activity under this thread after what France did with their students wishing to wear their turbans to class...

What happened to the European standards of secularism???



Ok, I'll risk coming out as ignorant but what did France do? I remember that ages ago they forbade wearing religious symbols at schools as it led to fights and the like. To eliminate that problem, measures were taken. What does it have to do with the standard of secularism? Now no religious symbols at schools are allowed. That makes the schools pretty secular, doesn't it?

27.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 19 Jun 2008 Thu 06:48 pm

A beauty from Cappadocia with her Turkish Turban; she also could be the wife of the photographer

http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=5835422

28.       Rocco Siffredi
60 posts
 20 Jun 2008 Fri 02:01 am

every countries have a full right to protect their regymes. whwether you accept it or not, you must obey the decisions of the courts. so i observed that headscarf symbolizes the opposition of the regyme of Turchia.

29.       tamikidakika
1346 posts
 20 Jun 2008 Fri 02:15 am

Quoting Roswitha:

A beauty from Cappadocia with her Turkish Turban; she also could be the wife of the photographer

http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=5835422



Can I ask what the relevance is here? and what you`re seeing in the picture is just a regular headscarf traditionally worn in the south east, not "turban".

30.       teaschip
3870 posts
 20 Jun 2008 Fri 04:48 pm

That turban looks hotter than heck..nice colors though for a turban.

31.       MrX67
2540 posts
 20 Jun 2008 Fri 06:00 pm

may be you can stop headscarf,but how you can stop all main human rights?so i think to be law judge not enough to be just...

32.       Lane
36 posts
 28 Jul 2008 Mon 05:47 pm

Forbidding headscarves in universities is absurd and gives nothing. Iran wants girls to be covered stricktly and Turkey wants them to be without covering. Where is the difference? And what does that forbidding give? Why girls with headscarves are discriminated?? They are not worth of university?? Do they try to increase intelligence of people by this way? Let me laugh. ABSURD. Turkey ıs democratic or not? Why does it dictate how to dress?

33.       doudi94
845 posts
 28 Jul 2008 Mon 07:12 pm

now i have no idea with what wearing a head scarf has to do with secularism its not gettimng in the way of politics!! and if i was a girl in turkey and wanted to wear a head scrf WHICH is a an order from god and couldnt then i would go to uni without it and then after i finish i would wear it its not that big of a deal now some ppl say what if i die withput a headscarf just coz i chose to go to uni well then it would be the goverments fault coz i see islam gave woman their rights b4 ataturk came islam encouraged women to get educationa nd ataturk stopped them from doing that and thats not fair to them islam also gave women the right to work and own lands and do whatever she wants with her inheritance and het divorced so if u look at like divorce laws in america LOTS of problems coz everybody gets half and i want thuis and i want that this causes ppl not to get married which means the guy or girl could cheat on her or him or do smthg to her or him and nothing would stop him coz theyre not legally bound together same thing when they get married they dont wanna geta divorce which causes a lot of chaos and other fatal things anyway about mosques and well of course its much easier for men to got o mosques than women who its more preferable for them to pray at home and tnhats why men have bigger places to pray in and why do u want women to pray right next to men wouldnt u be embaressed the only lady bya hundred men praying with them stuck to them bumping into them thats just wrong!!and about the head scarf i think if u prohibit ppl to do things then TURKEY IS NOT A FREE COUNTRY everybody should have the right to wear what they want and believe in what they want like in america u could go to school wearing whatever u want my mom was a teacher in a merica wearing a headscrf and everything was ok so i think taht it was a good step from erdogan to bring the heads carf back this will caus e many more girls to attened school and become educated since 60 percent of turkish women stay at home so good for u erdogan!!

34.       catwoman
8933 posts
 29 Jul 2008 Tue 12:26 am

Quoting Lane:

Forbidding headscarves in universities is absurd and gives nothing. Iran wants girls to be covered stricktly and Turkey wants them to be without covering. Where is the difference? And what does that forbidding give? Why girls with headscarves are discriminated?? They are not worth of university?? Do they try to increase intelligence of people by this way? Let me laugh. ABSURD. Turkey ıs democratic or not? Why does it dictate how to dress?


+1

35.       MrX67
2540 posts
 29 Jul 2008 Tue 12:36 am

thats really shame of this century judging people and creating some discriminates about their wearing prefers???And especially making political fights just from back of women

36.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 29 Jul 2008 Tue 11:32 am

Doudi94, please try to use punctuation in the future - it is really hard to read your post like one long sentence

I just wanted to see if I understood your message - Turkish women were free because Islam gives women rights. Then came Ataturk and limited their rights as he banned headscarves in public institutions. People in USA are not free and don´t get married because they´d have to split everything into half when they get divorced?

Sorry...but it sounded so (I´m lost for words here) unlikely/untrue that I had to make sure I got it right.

37.       mltm
3690 posts
 29 Jul 2008 Tue 01:18 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting Lane:

Forbidding headscarves in universities is absurd and gives nothing. Iran wants girls to be covered stricktly and Turkey wants them to be without covering. Where is the difference? And what does that forbidding give? Why girls with headscarves are discriminated?? They are not worth of university?? Do they try to increase intelligence of people by this way? Let me laugh. ABSURD. Turkey ıs democratic or not? Why does it dictate how to dress?


+1



How can you compare the democracy that´s in İran! (non-existant) and in Turkey? And the women rights?
Just this sentence make me even not to think much about what you have written.
A state can dictate its citizens how to dress, a state can use its power on its citizens when needed, that´s what a state is.
In no muslim state a headscarved woman is as free as she can be in Turkey. In Turkey, a woman is given as many rights as she´s given in any european democratic country. If there´s some kind of discrimination on these women, it´s not because they do not have the right to do it. Headscarf or burqa do not have anything to do with a woman, a woman has her rights, but headscarf or burka are her religious symbols, and these symbols do not have the right to be presented in places where the state decides that could violate the secularism of the state.

Then France is as antidemocratic as Turkey because here headscarves are banned in public schools as well. Though we know very well that France is one of the most democratic and secular countries.

Then why the European Court of Human Rights backs this ban
Their decision was:

Turkey can ban Islamic headscarves in universities.
The court rejected an appeal by a Turkish woman who argued that the state ban violated her right to an education and discriminated against her. "http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4424776.stm

I don´t think that the court of human rights know human rights less than you.






38.       Lane
36 posts
 29 Jul 2008 Tue 03:22 pm

Quoting mltm:


How can you compare the democracy that´s in İran! (non-existant) and in Turkey?

Then France is as antidemocratic as Turkey because here headscarves are banned in public schools as well. Though we know very well that France is one of the most democratic and secular countries.

Then why the European Court of Human Rights backs this ban
Their decision was:

Turkey can ban Islamic headscarves in universities.
The court rejected an appeal by a Turkish woman who argued that the state ban violated her right to an education and discriminated against her. "http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4424776.stm



Ok, that was too extreme example.

I am of very bad opinion about french government so it is no wonder for me.

European Court of Human Rights wasnt right and i guess they are ıslamophobic so they wanted to help poor women with agreeing or smth.

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