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Ergenekon (again) Tip of the iceberg of crime
(50 Messages in 5 pages - View all)
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30.       KeithL
1455 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:10 pm

It is easy for you to have this view. You escaped your village, got an education and have a nice life in a western country. I am very happy for you. Sincerely...
But those of us who chose to come here (and make things better), much less those who choose to stay, what for us?
Do we need to live with the constant threat? Why?
This isnt Plaestine. This isnt South Afrika.
Kurds suffer poverty just like Turks who live in the east. Just like Turks who live in all areas of istanbul. This doesn't give them the right to kill innocents and demand their own country. They are free to travel, vote, work, go to school just like everyone else. What disadvantage does a poor Kurd suffer that a poor turk does not also suffer? And what privelege doe a wealthy Turk enjoy that a wealthy Kurd does also not enjoy????
These are the lies and propaganda of the PKK.

31.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:14 pm

This ergenekon is a gang which have blood in their hands..
It is not a party. People can be against a party or supporting a party.
But supporting a murderous gang is different.

They have been working on preparing the ground for a coup!!
This gang has nothing to do with AKP. It was formed way before AKP.
Their problem is not with AKP!!
Even if it was formed because of AKP, nobody who has a bit of idea about what democracy is, should be able to support them

This gang is against what Ataturk said long time ago.
They are against the democracy;
They are against Turkey becoming a modern country;
They are against the freedom in Turkey.

They planned to organize mafya formations, they planned political assasinations (not only planing but they did it), they planned to control drug trafficking (it is a well known thing that some nationalists were fed through drugs money).

They think democracy is 'threatenining' for Turkey.

It is really interesting to see people CAN SUPPORT this gang..

Well..

32.       KeithL
1455 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:23 pm

Forget your 400 years. That is nonsense. At least describe them as to what they believe they are. The protectors of Kemalism.

33.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:36 pm

Quote:

It is easy for you to have this view. You escaped your village, got an education and have a nice life in a western country. I am very happy for you. Sincerely...


You are making a serious mistake over there.
I am not kurdish and if I was, I would not be ashamed to say that I am kurdish.
And I have never escaped from a village because I never lived in village.
I grew up in Istanbul.
God knows, why you keep having this idea that I am kurdish..
I guess, though you have been living in Turkey but you have NOT understood Turks that much. We, Turks, never are ashamed to say where we are from.
I am sure you will understand that with the time, but it may never happen by living in Levent or those upper middle class areas though..

Quote:


But those of us who chose to come here (and make things better), much less those who choose to stay, what for us?
Do we need to live with the constant threat? Why?
This isnt Plaestine. This isnt South Afrika.


I am not sure one more fake nationalist is what I call 'making better'. I am sorry for your suffering that you are scared with all those bombings and killings.
But we Turks who never lived in those bourgeois area of istanbul were taught that our country is a whole country.
So, we have to think the sufferings, people have been facing when they were driven from their villages in the sount east.
We have to think how those 30.000 kurds killed in the south east (by the army mainly) and what fears they had during this process.
We grew up with the idea that 'Kurds belong to this country as well'

And, in the end, I believe, when a Kurd in Diyarbakir has the same rights as a Turk in Levent, it will stop people, like you, living in fear.
When people of Levent do not realize it as the reality, think only of their comfy life and complain about the fear will NOT have much sympathy from the others.

34.       KeithL
1455 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:44 pm

I have never said you were Kurdish and it doesn't make a difference if you were.

You have been completely reluctant in the past to say where you are from, so this part of what you say is not so true at all.

When i speak of living in fear, I don't speak for myself. But what about the mother's who have small children? You don't think they fear what the PKK has been doing?

And your number of 30,000. I did not realize that every death since PKK's inception was a kurd. I had always thought some turks may have died during this time too.

And also, I am not in burgouis levent but in very quiet, fundamental Fulya. And my work takes me to central and eastern turkey by the way...so i am not shielded from the "whole Turkey"

But more importantly, you skipped over my questions on why the opression of poverty is any different for a Kurd than it is a Turk.

35.       catwoman
8933 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:45 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Without those who wish to return to Sharia Law (AKP) and the PKK (with its supporters and symapthizers lurking), there would be no need for Ergenekon...


I am afraid this is wrong... on a couple levels. On a factual level - possibly Ergenekon increased the radicalism of PKK and caused its activities. On a moral level - if you disapprove of PKK terrorism as a way of solving the Kurdish problem, you cannot support government terrorism as a way to solve the PKK problem.

36.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:49 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Forget your 400 years. That is nonsense. At least describe them as to what they believe they are. The protectors of Kemalism.


haha
kemalism? phew!!
Everybody has different version of kemalism in Turkey.
But if you ask me what it is, I can summarize it as:

-nationalism
-westernism
-pragmatism

None of those gang members can say that they have been doing it because they are protecting kemalism.

Forget that last two item which we know that they are against.
Even they are not nationalist!!
They believe that murdering Hrant Dink, Santoro (a priest in Trabzon) etc were heroic acts of nationalism.
Is it the same as Ataturk nationalism?

Well
I DO NOT think so!!

37.       KeithL
1455 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:52 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting KeithL:

Forget your 400 years. That is nonsense. At least describe them as to what they believe they are. The protectors of Kemalism.


haha
kemalism? phew!!
Everybody has different version of kemalism in Turkey.
But if you ask me what it is I can, summarize it:

-nationalism
-westernism
-pragmatism

None of those gang memeber can say that they have been doing it because they are protecting kemalism.

Forget that last two item which we know that they are against.
Even they are not nationalist!!
They believe that murdering Hrant Dink, Santoro (a priest in Trabzon) etc were heroic acts of nationalism.
Is it the same as Ataturk nationalism?

Well
I DO NOT think so!!



This I agree with you completely.

38.       catwoman
8933 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:54 pm

Quoting KeithL:

But more importantly, you skipped over my questions on why the opression of poverty is any different for a Kurd than it is a Turk.


Your question was not directed to me, but I would like to say that, in my understanding, it is not about the current situation of Kurds and Turks living equally in poverty. It is a very similar issue as the one of African Americans in the US. First off - they are poorer statistically, due to the past oppressions and they had not been compensated by the government enough for years of discrimination, so that now they can have a better start. Secondly, the PKK issue and the Kurdish issue is not, as I said, because of poverty. If you read about this problem - you will learn that from the very beginning of the republic, there was an effort to make Kurds into Turks. Kurds were severely oppressed, denied basic needs. They formed PKK and as counter-insurgency efforts, the government killed 30,000-50,000 innocent Kurds, destroyed 3,500 villages, brutalized, terrorized and forced out of homes millions of others. This cannot be simply ignored and the Kurdish problem cannot be simply equaled with poverty. It is the Turkish government that did these things to them, in their own country!!!

39.       KeithL
1455 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:55 pm

Quoting KeithL:

Kurds suffer poverty just like Turks who live in the east. Just like Turks who live in all areas of istanbul. This doesn't give them the right to kill innocents and demand their own country. They are free to travel, vote, work, go to school just like everyone else. What disadvantage does a poor Kurd suffer that a poor turk does not also suffer? And what privelege doe a wealthy Turk enjoy that a wealthy Kurd does also not enjoy????
These are the lies and propaganda of the PKK.



Forget the rest. Just explain this part to me . Not in terms of 1928, 1958 or 1978, but in 2008. What piece of this puzzle am I missing?

40.       zhang ziyi
205 posts
 17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:57 pm

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