Turkish Politics |
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Ergenekon (again) Tip of the iceberg of crime
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| 1. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 10:56 am |
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Cengiz ÇANDAR
Among the charges that the Ergenekon indictment covers are membership in an armed terror organization, helping the terror organization, attempting to overthrow the Turkish government by use of force and violence......
The most dramatic lawsuit:
The 2,455-page indictment charges 86 suspects, including academics, politicians, journalists and high-rank retired military officials.
......
Turkey has witnessed murders by unknown perpetrators and political assassinations for decades as it has been targeted by armed sabotages and provocations. Although perpetrators were not facing the court or solving political problems by killing people seemed working in a 'chain of murders,' but they created 'public conscience' in time.
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A clean hands operation
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This is not a case of a 'land dispute' or a 'commercial suit.' This is a 'political' case which is of a great deal interest to all of us and to our life security. This is a 'political case' in which the 'murder weapon' is bombs and bullets.
......
And we are the witnesses of our time and our country. We will also witness whether or not the 'political advocates' in this lawsuit that is about setting up and leading an armed gang will become 'suspects' in the case…
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/editorial.php?ed=cengiz_candar
I keep posting about this subject, but in my opinion, Turkey has NEVER come to this close to confront these fascists in her entire history. It is an historical moment for Turkey.
We will all wait and see what happens.
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| 3. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 01:25 pm |
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Thats a very unfortunate report... i wonder who is the reporter of this ways and on what basis he or she supports PKK as rebels or Kurdistan Workers' Party, as if a country like that exists.
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| 4. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 01:31 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris:
Thats a very unfortunate report... i wonder who is the reporter of this ways and on what basis he or she supports PKK as rebels or Kurdistan Workers' Party, as if a country like that exists. |
What is wrong with report? 
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| 5. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 01:35 pm |
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Quoting ciko: Quoting SuiGeneris:
Thats a very unfortunate report... i wonder who is the reporter of this ways and on what basis he or she supports PKK as rebels or Kurdistan Workers' Party, as if a country like that exists. |
What is wrong with report? |
That they are called as rebels... there is a misunderstanding here... for me ofcourse... i dont expect you to think the same...
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| 6. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 01:44 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: Quoting ciko: Quoting SuiGeneris:
Thats a very unfortunate report... i wonder who is the reporter of this ways and on what basis he or she supports PKK as rebels or Kurdistan Workers' Party, as if a country like that exists. |
What is wrong with report? |
That they are called as rebels... there is a misunderstanding here... for me ofcourse... i dont expect you to think the same... |
aha you mean they should have called them terrorists? i see now but those terrorist indirectly are rebelling, so it is partly true
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| 7. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 01:51 pm |
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Quoting ciko: aha you mean they should have called them terrorists? i see now but those terrorist indirectly are rebelling, so it is partly true |
i think we have better things to do than playing with words
a small group can make some rebelling as breaking down the glasses of markets of shops...
But here they are "killing" here... so these cannot be at the same level... this is my opinion ofcourse...
Yes they are terrorists and they are creating a terror...
I was there once...after seeing the dark sky red because of their bullets... believe me it cannot be called as rebelling... 
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| 8. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 01:59 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: Quoting ciko: aha you mean they should have called them terrorists? i see now but those terrorist indirectly are rebelling, so it is partly true |
i think we have better things to do than playing with words
a small group can make some rebelling as breaking down the glasses of markets of shops...
But here they are "killing" here... so these cannot be at the same level... this is my opinion ofcourse...
Yes they are terrorists and they are creating a terror...
I was there once...after seeing the dark sky red because of their bullets... believe me it cannot be called as rebelling... |
well i was in sirnak cizre as a soldier and i also have been in the east as a citizen and believe me what the state created there was not very innocent. to ban speaking your own language, to ban listening to music in your own language, to ban having name in your own language, and to do nothing else except bans as a state would cause REBEL anywhere in the world, please do not speak like Turkish State was always good to people there, even the most fascist generals admitted it.
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| 9. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 02:14 pm |
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Quoting ciko:
well i was in sirnak cizre as a soldier and i also have been in the east as a citizen and believe me what the state created there was not very innocent. to ban speaking your own language, to ban listening to music in your own language, to ban having name in your own language, and to do nothing else except bans as a state would cause REBEL anywhere in the world, please do not speak like Turkish State was always good to people there, even the most fascist generals admitted it. |
I never defended Turkish State was very good to people there...And i am the one who always fights in public offices etc... when i see how they treat badly and wrong to people there... and please be careful with the style you talk and the accusations you made to me...
Whatever the government does, it doesnt give you the right to kill...I know lots of commanders were doing all they could for having OHAL continue... They should also be punished... I know lots of citizens in east keeping weapons in their houses for a PKK attack to city...
I had lots of Kurdish friends in school who was hating from PKK aswell...
Seems everybody has his own experiences...
I can call the Arabs, Kurds, Turks defend themselves in Iraq against the American British soldiers there! I can call them rebel...
"You get your rights, you shouldnt expect from governors." it was told to me by a documentary director in Taksim ages ago. But ofcourse you shouldnt get those by rifles!
Kurdish, this is not a discrimination, had always people in government! This is their fault... those bans... not the soldiers i am afraid...
Do you think PKK is fighting with those bans? I dont think so really...
My last word is, whatever happens it doesnt give them any right to kill a person... This is acceptable for both sides in logical cases!
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| 10. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 03:10 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: I never defended Turkish State was very good to people there...And i am the one who always fights in public offices etc... when i see how they treat badly and wrong to people there... and please be careful with the style you talk and the accusations you made to me...
Whatever the government does, it doesnt give you the right to kill...I know lots of commanders were doing all they could for having OHAL continue... They should also be punished... I know lots of citizens in east keeping weapons in their houses for a PKK attack to city...
I had lots of Kurdish friends in school who was hating from PKK aswell...
Seems everybody has his own experiences...
I can call the Arabs, Kurds, Turks defend themselves in Iraq against the American British soldiers there! I can call them rebel...
"You get your rights, you shouldnt expect from governors." it was told to me by a documentary director in Taksim ages ago. But ofcourse you shouldnt get those by rifles!
Kurdish, this is not a discrimination, had always people in government! This is their fault... those bans... not the soldiers i am afraid...
Do you think PKK is fighting with those bans? I dont think so really...
My last word is, whatever happens it doesnt give them any right to kill a person... This is acceptable for both sides in logical cases! |
I just would like to say that in order to really understand the Kurdish problem, one has to know the atrocities and oppression that Kurds were subjected to. Only then, can the solutions come. Also, while nobody has the right to resort to killing others, it is unfortunately commonly done. Also by governments. Turkish government is no different. So I think one has to look at the problem in this particular context, not simply as a theoretical issue. But of course, what you said was absolutely correct, I fully agree with you.
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| 11. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 03:15 pm |
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I also agree with you Catwoman, well said.
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| 12. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 03:44 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: Quoting ciko:
well i was in sirnak cizre as a soldier and i also have been in the east as a citizen and believe me what the state created there was not very innocent. to ban speaking your own language, to ban listening to music in your own language, to ban having name in your own language, and to do nothing else except bans as a state would cause REBEL anywhere in the world, please do not speak like Turkish State was always good to people there, even the most fascist generals admitted it. |
"You get your rights, you shouldnt expect from governors." it was told to me by a documentary director in Taksim ages ago. But ofcourse you shouldnt get those by rifles!
Do you think PKK is fighting with those bans? I dont think so really...
My last word is, whatever happens it doesnt give them any right to kill a person... This is acceptable for both sides in logical cases! |
well you dont sound so humanist when soldiers kill PKK terrorists!!! i remember your saying " i would not call them even human" once..so do not pretend to be purely humanist man... Humanity is good when only it fits you. you never think and question why those young boys go to mountains and why they leave everything behind them you never think that those boys have families like turkish soldiers and mothers cry wwhen their sons die as well!
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| 13. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 04:06 pm |
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Quoting ciko: you never think and question why those young boys go to mountains and why they leave everything behind them you never think that those boys have families like turkish soldiers and mothers cry wwhen their sons die as well! |
Do these mothers also cry for the people that they send their sons to kill?
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| 14. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 04:13 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting ciko: you never think and question why those young boys go to mountains and why they leave everything behind them you never think that those boys have families like turkish soldiers and mothers cry wwhen their sons die as well! |
Do these mothers also cry for the people that they send their sons to kill? |
what i meant was something else, human is human,, no matter what they die for. if you think it is not right to kill people and if you say ' i dont call dying terrorist human' then i have every right to say you conflict yourself!anyway..love will come through
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| 15. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 04:20 pm |
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Quoting ciko: what i meant was something else, human is human,, no matter what they die for. if you think it is not right to kill people and if you say ' i dont call dying terrorist human' then i have every right to say you conflict yourself! |
+1
Nobody would volunteer to kill people and risk their own lives if they didn't believe it was absolutely necessary.
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| 16. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 05:32 pm |
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Quoting ciko:
well you dont sound so humanist when soldiers kill PKK terrorists!!! i remember your saying " i would not call them even human" once..so do not pretend to be purely humanist man... Humanity is good when only it fits you. you never think and question why those young boys go to mountains and why they leave everything behind them you never think that those boys have families like turkish soldiers and mothers cry wwhen their sons die as well! |
First of all, i dont pretend as someone or humanist... i am just myself with my thoughts... and i have no interest in giving people names and call... i have only one name given to me by my father...
Secondly, i have very straight lines about PKK and terrorists and again i say, they die for nothing and they die without knowing what they die for, actually they also know that they are only used!!! why do you think they dont killed the person called Apo in the prison...
Why people need to go mountains? You are trying mention here as they have valid reasons to go there!!!
This is nonsense!!
A human is an animal at the begining... what makes you human and successful is your behaviours...
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| 17. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 05:38 pm |
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Quote: Secondly, i have very straight lines about PKK and terrorists and again i say, they die for nothing and they die without knowing what they die for, |
You are absolutely 100% correct. What a waste..
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| 18. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 06:23 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: A human is an animal at the begining... what makes you human and successful is your behaviours... |
A human is an animal both at the beginning and at the end. How certain behaviors are judged is somewhat relative though, mostly, actions are judged based on the circumstances, the amount of free will, the convictions of the person, the motivation... (although some absolute moral standards do apply to everybody). If you decide that a person is "human" because she/he displays "human feelings" - like love and care, then unfortunately, 98% of people will qualify, even some villains. There are true, despicable psychopaths there - like Hitler - who need to be simply eradicated, but they are exceptions. The act of murder is often a result of long time brainwashing (similar to what radical islamists go through) or severe oppression (assuming that it's a mentally normal person).
Fathers and brothers who cold bloodedly murder their daughters and sisters in so called "honor killings", Chinese or Indians who drop their baby-daughters from mountains because they wanted them to be sons, cold-blooded murderers of the so called "adultresses" in Afghanistan and other barbaric countries, terrorist attackers of 9/11, 7/7, Darfur murderers and rapists,.... Turkish military that brutalized and terrorized Kurdish villages.... etc etc etc... They are all in some way less then human, and at the same time they are also human. They probably have families, mothers and fathers that they try to protect... maybe children that they love... It is the power of human mind that we can be both very evil and very good at the same time, as we think is needed to survive.
It is exactly the ideology that Kurdish people are less then human that allowed Turkish soldiers to brutalize them. It is also what PKK soldiers must be taught to be able to murder innocent Turkish and Kurdish people. We should not go down this path... It is simply wrong that all of the fighters (Turkish and Kurdish) are inhuman. Some of them probably are, but the majority is definitely not - there must be something else going on there.
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| 19. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 06:24 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: Quoting ciko:
well you dont sound so humanist when soldiers kill PKK terrorists!!! i remember your saying ' i would not call them even human' once..so do not pretend to be purely humanist man... Humanity is good when only it fits you. you never think and question why those young boys go to mountains and why they leave everything behind them you never think that those boys have families like turkish soldiers and mothers cry wwhen their sons die as well! |
First of all, i dont pretend as someone or humanist... i am just myself with my thoughts... and i have no interest in giving people names and call... i have only one name given to me by my father...
Secondly, i have very straight lines about PKK and terrorists and again i say, they die for nothing and they die without knowing what they die for, actually they also know that they are only used!!! why do you think they dont killed the person called Apo in the prison...
Why people need to go mountains? You are trying mention here as they have valid reasons to go there!!!
This is nonsense!!
A human is an animal at the begining... what makes you human and successful is your behaviours... |
Well if you read my other posts you would see i never say they must go to mountain to solve problems. they die for nothing as you said and soldiers die for nothing as well...just our dear army and state getting more holier for people each day..but still no problem has been solved. the state and army's politics on east is just making kurdish more and more angry.
Last month a child could not get into Turkey only because he has a kurdish name.. there are thousands of samples like that.. just dont expect uneducated kurdish people to be loyal this merciful state that is feeding terrorism.
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| 21. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 06:32 pm |
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Quoting ciko:
Well if you read my other posts you would see i never say they must go to mountain to solve problems. they die for nothing as you said and soldiers die for nothing as well...just our dear army and state getting more holier for people each day..but still no problem has been solved. the state and army's politics on east is just making kurdish more and more angry.
Last month a child could not get into Turkey only because he has a kurdish name.. there are thousands of samples like that.. just dont expect uneducated kurdish people to be loyal this merciful state that is feeding terrorism. |
Its again us who promotes and votes those bloody idiot politics... right?
About feeding terrorism... true that government feeds that... and also lots of other governments feeding this terrorist organisation because of their benefits...
I dont know if you ever watched but there is a documentary about "religions and this terror organisations" called "Zeigeist" i guess. Well, the state cannot be blamed at all because of an idiot officer in the borders is not taking a child inside because of a kurdish name... But thats also seems another story for uprising again that kurds and turks discrimination...
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| 22. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 06:36 pm |
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we cant get into that site catwoman... Banned... the country of Bans
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| 23. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 06:42 pm |
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Quoting ciko:
we cant get into that site catwoman... Banned... the country of Bans |
You haven't been following the conversations here, have you? 
Go here to see how to access youtube: (post #3)
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_7_30836
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| 24. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 06:51 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting ciko:
we cant get into that site catwoman... Banned... the country of Bans |
You haven't been following the conversations here, have you?
Go here to see how to access youtube: (post #3)
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_7_30836 |
i watched but but my english is not good enough to understand it properly nevermind..sui is gone... there is no one else to argue..i am leaving too
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| 25. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 07:25 pm |
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I would gladly have members of Ergenekon as my neighbors than any filth of the PKK.
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| 26. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 10:23 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom:
I keep posting about this subject, but in my opinion, Turkey has NEVER come to this close to confront these fascists in her entire history. It is a historical moment for Turkey. |
That is very good. Terrorists of all walks of life need to be shut down.
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| 27. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 10:41 pm |
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I think, in my previous threads, I tried to explain that the way we have been looking at this problem and the way we have been handling it has been so wrong.
Reducing the entire kurdish problem into 'terrorism ONLY' was the idea, coming from 'fascist generals' and their manipulation of the public/media..
Insisting that 'we do NOT have kurdish problem but terrorism only' is a huge lie and nobody believes it anymore.
We all know that we have a kurdish problem. ('we have had it since the begining of our republic' will be a correct statement)
have you ever thought why we are saying 'NOW they can speak kurdish' proudly?
It is an admission that they could not before!.
is it NOT?
Basically, since the begining we have been making mistakes.
And boasting idioticly, 'aha!! we went and killed 10 of them, 20 of them, we will kill 500 of them' and not thinking that 'they are this country's boys as well' is not only primitive and blood thirsty but they are undermining the ultimate goal which is 'we Turks and Kurds can live together'.
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| 28. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 10:42 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting thehandsom:
I keep posting about this subject, but in my opinion, Turkey has NEVER come to this close to confront these fascists in her entire history. It is a historical moment for Turkey. |
That is very good. Terrorists of all walks of life need to be shut down. |
Without those who wish to return to Sharia Law (AKP) and the PKK (with its supporters and symapthizers lurking), there would be no need for Ergenekon...
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| 29. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:01 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: And boasting idioticly, 'aha!! we went and killed 10 of them, 20 of them, we will kill 500 of them' and not thinking that 'they are this country's boys as well' is not only primitive and blood thirsty but they are undermining the ultimate goal which is 'we Turks and Kurds can live together'.
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As someone who gladly contributes to this Country's economy and pays my fair share of taxes, let me say that these are not "this country's boys"...
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| 30. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:10 pm |
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It is easy for you to have this view. You escaped your village, got an education and have a nice life in a western country. I am very happy for you. Sincerely...
But those of us who chose to come here (and make things better), much less those who choose to stay, what for us?
Do we need to live with the constant threat? Why?
This isnt Plaestine. This isnt South Afrika.
Kurds suffer poverty just like Turks who live in the east. Just like Turks who live in all areas of istanbul. This doesn't give them the right to kill innocents and demand their own country. They are free to travel, vote, work, go to school just like everyone else. What disadvantage does a poor Kurd suffer that a poor turk does not also suffer? And what privelege doe a wealthy Turk enjoy that a wealthy Kurd does also not enjoy????
These are the lies and propaganda of the PKK.
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| 31. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:14 pm |
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This ergenekon is a gang which have blood in their hands..
It is not a party. People can be against a party or supporting a party.
But supporting a murderous gang is different.
They have been working on preparing the ground for a coup!!
This gang has nothing to do with AKP. It was formed way before AKP.
Their problem is not with AKP!!
Even if it was formed because of AKP, nobody who has a bit of idea about what democracy is, should be able to support them
This gang is against what Ataturk said long time ago.
They are against the democracy;
They are against Turkey becoming a modern country;
They are against the freedom in Turkey.
They planned to organize mafya formations, they planned political assasinations (not only planing but they did it), they planned to control drug trafficking (it is a well known thing that some nationalists were fed through drugs money).
They think democracy is 'threatenining' for Turkey.
It is really interesting to see people CAN SUPPORT this gang..
Well..
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| 32. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:23 pm |
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Forget your 400 years. That is nonsense. At least describe them as to what they believe they are. The protectors of Kemalism.
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| 33. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:36 pm |
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Quote: It is easy for you to have this view. You escaped your village, got an education and have a nice life in a western country. I am very happy for you. Sincerely...
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You are making a serious mistake over there.
I am not kurdish and if I was, I would not be ashamed to say that I am kurdish.
And I have never escaped from a village because I never lived in village.
I grew up in Istanbul.
God knows, why you keep having this idea that I am kurdish..
I guess, though you have been living in Turkey but you have NOT understood Turks that much. We, Turks, never are ashamed to say where we are from.
I am sure you will understand that with the time, but it may never happen by living in Levent or those upper middle class areas though..
Quote:
But those of us who chose to come here (and make things better), much less those who choose to stay, what for us?
Do we need to live with the constant threat? Why?
This isnt Plaestine. This isnt South Afrika.
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I am not sure one more fake nationalist is what I call 'making better'. I am sorry for your suffering that you are scared with all those bombings and killings.
But we Turks who never lived in those bourgeois area of istanbul were taught that our country is a whole country.
So, we have to think the sufferings, people have been facing when they were driven from their villages in the sount east.
We have to think how those 30.000 kurds killed in the south east (by the army mainly) and what fears they had during this process.
We grew up with the idea that 'Kurds belong to this country as well'
And, in the end, I believe, when a Kurd in Diyarbakir has the same rights as a Turk in Levent, it will stop people, like you, living in fear.
When people of Levent do not realize it as the reality, think only of their comfy life and complain about the fear will NOT have much sympathy from the others.
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| 34. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:44 pm |
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I have never said you were Kurdish and it doesn't make a difference if you were.
You have been completely reluctant in the past to say where you are from, so this part of what you say is not so true at all.
When i speak of living in fear, I don't speak for myself. But what about the mother's who have small children? You don't think they fear what the PKK has been doing?
And your number of 30,000. I did not realize that every death since PKK's inception was a kurd. I had always thought some turks may have died during this time too.
And also, I am not in burgouis levent but in very quiet, fundamental Fulya. And my work takes me to central and eastern turkey by the way...so i am not shielded from the "whole Turkey"
But more importantly, you skipped over my questions on why the opression of poverty is any different for a Kurd than it is a Turk.
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| 35. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:45 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: Without those who wish to return to Sharia Law (AKP) and the PKK (with its supporters and symapthizers lurking), there would be no need for Ergenekon... |
I am afraid this is wrong... on a couple levels. On a factual level - possibly Ergenekon increased the radicalism of PKK and caused its activities. On a moral level - if you disapprove of PKK terrorism as a way of solving the Kurdish problem, you cannot support government terrorism as a way to solve the PKK problem.
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| 36. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:49 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: Forget your 400 years. That is nonsense. At least describe them as to what they believe they are. The protectors of Kemalism. |
haha
kemalism? phew!!
Everybody has different version of kemalism in Turkey.
But if you ask me what it is, I can summarize it as:
-nationalism
-westernism
-pragmatism
None of those gang members can say that they have been doing it because they are protecting kemalism.
Forget that last two item which we know that they are against.
Even they are not nationalist!!
They believe that murdering Hrant Dink, Santoro (a priest in Trabzon) etc were heroic acts of nationalism.
Is it the same as Ataturk nationalism?
Well
I DO NOT think so!!
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| 37. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:52 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: Quoting KeithL: Forget your 400 years. That is nonsense. At least describe them as to what they believe they are. The protectors of Kemalism. |
haha
kemalism? phew!!
Everybody has different version of kemalism in Turkey.
But if you ask me what it is I can, summarize it:
-nationalism
-westernism
-pragmatism
None of those gang memeber can say that they have been doing it because they are protecting kemalism.
Forget that last two item which we know that they are against.
Even they are not nationalist!!
They believe that murdering Hrant Dink, Santoro (a priest in Trabzon) etc were heroic acts of nationalism.
Is it the same as Ataturk nationalism?
Well
I DO NOT think so!! |
This I agree with you completely.
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| 38. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:54 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: But more importantly, you skipped over my questions on why the opression of poverty is any different for a Kurd than it is a Turk. |
Your question was not directed to me, but I would like to say that, in my understanding, it is not about the current situation of Kurds and Turks living equally in poverty. It is a very similar issue as the one of African Americans in the US. First off - they are poorer statistically, due to the past oppressions and they had not been compensated by the government enough for years of discrimination, so that now they can have a better start. Secondly, the PKK issue and the Kurdish issue is not, as I said, because of poverty. If you read about this problem - you will learn that from the very beginning of the republic, there was an effort to make Kurds into Turks. Kurds were severely oppressed, denied basic needs. They formed PKK and as counter-insurgency efforts, the government killed 30,000-50,000 innocent Kurds, destroyed 3,500 villages, brutalized, terrorized and forced out of homes millions of others. This cannot be simply ignored and the Kurdish problem cannot be simply equaled with poverty. It is the Turkish government that did these things to them, in their own country!!!
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| 39. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:55 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: Kurds suffer poverty just like Turks who live in the east. Just like Turks who live in all areas of istanbul. This doesn't give them the right to kill innocents and demand their own country. They are free to travel, vote, work, go to school just like everyone else. What disadvantage does a poor Kurd suffer that a poor turk does not also suffer? And what privelege doe a wealthy Turk enjoy that a wealthy Kurd does also not enjoy????
These are the lies and propaganda of the PKK. |
Forget the rest. Just explain this part to me . Not in terms of 1928, 1958 or 1978, but in 2008. What piece of this puzzle am I missing?
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| 40. |
17 Jul 2008 Thu 11:57 pm |
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| 41. |
18 Jul 2008 Fri 12:00 am |
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Quoting KeithL:
This I agree with you completely.
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if you agree what I said then you were wrong about your post:
That is nonsense. At least describe them as to what they believe they are. The protectors of Kemalism.
I was trying to explain why they can NOT be called kemalists or protectors of kemalism.
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| 42. |
18 Jul 2008 Fri 12:01 am |
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Quoting KeithL: Forget the rest. Just explain this part to me . Not in terms of 1928, 1958 or 1978, but in 2008. What piece of this puzzle am I missing? |
What you are missing is the fact that the PKK problem already exists and Kurds remember what has happened to them.
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| 43. |
18 Jul 2008 Fri 12:03 am |
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Quoting KeithL:
Forget the rest. Just explain this part to me . Not in terms of 1928, 1958 or 1978, but in 2008. What piece of this puzzle am I missing? |
This is very simple actually..
We made mistakes in 1928, 1958 or 1978..
And we are still making the same mistakes.. (I tried to explain it in sark islahat plani thread!!)
That is the simple missing piece..
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| 44. |
18 Jul 2008 Fri 12:05 am |
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Quoting thehandsom: Quoting KeithL:
This I agree with you completely.
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if you agree what I said then you were wrong about your post:
That is nonsense. At least describe them as to what they believe they are. The protectors of Kemalism.
I was trying to explain why they can NOT be called kemalists or protectors of kemalism. |
Its not MY claim they are protecting Kemalism. I said it is their claim. I do not procalaim that I know the ins and outs of Ergenekon. And I would prefer a country where people did not see them as necessary. I don't get the same feel from your posts.
Your posts give me the feel that you think PKK is a necessary evil. This is our one and only difference. Nothing else.
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| 45. |
18 Jul 2008 Fri 12:10 am |
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Quoting thehandsom: Quoting KeithL:
Forget the rest. Just explain this part to me . Not in terms of 1928, 1958 or 1978, but in 2008. What piece of this puzzle am I missing? |
This is very simple actually..
We made mistakes in 1928, 1958 or 1978..
And we are still making the same mistakes.. (I tried to explain it in sark islahat plani thread!!)
That is the simple missing piece.. |
This is so not true! Any kurd from eastern turkey can find his way to istanbul to seek a job.
And Catwoman, comparing kurds to Blacks in US is not realistic.
Kurds were never slaves.
They have never been a population minority the way blacks were and still are.
Kurds did have and still have self determination to own property and run for public office.
Turkey's response to Kurds has been in retaliation of their constant pressure to become a breakaway republic.
Is there also a document named "the kurdish genocide"?
I'm not familiar with it.
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| 46. |
18 Jul 2008 Fri 12:11 am |
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Quoting KeithL: Quoting thehandsom: Quoting KeithL:
This I agree with you completely.
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if you agree what I said then you were wrong about your post:
That is nonsense. At least describe them as to what they believe they are. The protectors of Kemalism.
I was trying to explain why they can NOT be called kemalists or protectors of kemalism. |
Its not MY claim they are protecting Kemalism. I said it is their claim. I do not procalaim that I know the ins and outs of Ergenekon. And I would prefer a country where people did not see them as necessary. I don't get the same feel from your posts.
Your posts give me the feel that you think PKK is a necessary evil. This is our one and only difference. Nothing else. |
I never said that PKK is necessary evil here.
What I said was they are the product of our own wrong doings, our own mistakes.
Years and years of denying basic rights to some part of people who have been living there with Turks (us) for thousands of years.
We Turks are the oppressing group in this issue.
We created them..we created them with our own mistakes and some of us are still not accepting these and we are having this mess..
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| 47. |
18 Jul 2008 Fri 12:15 am |
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What basic right are they not getting now???
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| 48. |
18 Jul 2008 Fri 12:20 am |
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Quoting KeithL: What basic right are they not getting now??? |
I am copying ciko's post here:
well i was in sirnak cizre as a soldier and i also have been in the east as a citizen and believe me what the state created there was not very innocent. to ban speaking your own language, to ban listening to music in your own language, to ban having name in your own language, and to do nothing else except bans as a state would cause REBEL anywhere in the world, please do not speak like Turkish State was always good to people there, even the most fascist generals admitted it.
and another one
Last month a child could not get into Turkey only because he has a kurdish name.. there are thousands of samples like that..
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| 49. |
18 Jul 2008 Fri 12:29 am |
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Quoting thehandsom: Quoting KeithL: What basic right are they not getting now??? |
I am copying ciko's post here:
well i was in sirnak cizre as a soldier and i also have been in the east as a citizen and believe me what the state created there was not very innocent. to ban speaking your own language, to ban listening to music in your own language, to ban having name in your own language, and to do nothing else except bans as a state would cause REBEL anywhere in the world, please do not speak like Turkish State was always good to people there, even the most fascist generals admitted it.
and another one
Last month a child could not get into Turkey only because he has a kurdish name.. there are thousands of samples like that.. |
isn't that in the past???
all of these forms of opression are lifted now. And I agree, they were wrong.
There are rascists in every country. Turkey is not immune from this ugly trait...
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| 50. |
18 Jul 2008 Fri 01:01 am |
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Quoting KeithL: Quoting thehandsom: Quoting KeithL: What basic right are they not getting now??? |
I am copying ciko's post here:
well i was in sirnak cizre as a soldier and i also have been in the east as a citizen and believe me what the state created there was not very innocent. to ban speaking your own language, to ban listening to music in your own language, to ban having name in your own language, and to do nothing else except bans as a state would cause REBEL anywhere in the world, please do not speak like Turkish State was always good to people there, even the most fascist generals admitted it.
and another one
Last month a child could not get into Turkey only because he has a kurdish name.. there are thousands of samples like that.. |
isn't that in the past???
all of these forms of opression are lifted now. And I agree, they were wrong.
There are rascists in every country. Turkey is not immune from this ugly trait... |
I think you did not read ciko's post carefully..
He was saying 'last month'!!
And just changing the law has not changed the racists in Turkey suddenly..
They are still pretending as if nothing happened in that country for 80 years, they are still pretending they are as blood thirsty as ever. They are still going on 'kill them all' etc..
Basically, we have to uproot this fascism which has been mixed with the nationalism for a long time.
It will take time yani.
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