-den önce means before, like in ´gitmeden önce´ - before going

On this forum I´ve seen it being used with a personal suffix, like in ´gitmedem önce´

probably with the intention of saying ´before i went´

I thought the ´-den önce´  was a fixed construction that couldn´t be personalized,

and the understanding as to whom it concerns, should come from the suffix of the verb

later in the sentence, like in ´gitmeden önce su içtim´.

Is this correct? Any comments?

i think that ´gitme´ is a noun not a verb  as in ´the going´     and the suffixes you add are personalizing the noun  as in for example ´from my comings and goings´  in an english sentence.

not sure how to translate that to turkish

not quite sure but that would be my guess

First: girmedem önce -- there is no such thing. It´s wrong.

Second: you seem to mix up 2 things

x - den önce = before x ( x is a noun here)

2 den önce = before 2

yarýndan önce = before tomorrow

v + meden önce

this is a "zarffiil" (a verb form acting like an adverb). Zarffiils cannot be used with personal suffixes. If the person of an adverbial clause is different from the main verb´s person then you need to include that person in that adverbial clause (zarffiil cümlesi in Turkish).

Different persons

Ben gitmeden önce sen geldin = you came before I go

The same person (you can drop it from "zarfiil cümlesi")

Gitmeden önce seni görürüm = I will see you before I go

And you can omit "önce" without affecting its meaning

v + -meden önce = v + -meden

Ben gitmeden sen geldin = you came before I go

Gitmeden seni görürüm = I will see you before I go

v + meden önce

this is a "zarffiil" (a verb form acting like an adverb). Zarffiils cannot be used with personal suffixes. If the person of an adverbial clause is different from the main verb´s person then you need to include that person in that adverbial clause (zarffiil cümlesi in Turkish).

Ben gitmeden sen geldin = you came before I go

(literal trans. then would be: I, before the going,  you came)

Gitmeden seni görürüm = I will see you before I go

( before (the) going, I saw you)

so then,   I will see you before you go would be:  Sen gitmeden seni görürüm.  ??

(you, before (the) going, i will see you) ?

Yes you can say before going (but without the), then they call it gerund in English, right?

Çýkmadan seni görürüm = I will see you before leaving

instead of

I will see you before I leave

yes, a noun must be there before "-den önce"

Like yarýndan önce =before tomorrow.

But i am suspicious about this sentence:

Gitmeden önce...    

See, "-me or -ma" and " -mek or -mak" changes the verbs into nouns (make verbal nouns) as

-ing does.

Okuma-yý severim = I like reading

But "-me , -ma" are also the suffixes making negative form of the sentences.

O kitabý okuma!  = Do not read that book!

I am not the expert of Turkish LAnguage but as it is my mother language i haven´t ever been suspected a grammer style as in this.

But i believe here the negative form is used.

Gitmeden önce haber ver=  Means the same thing with "Do not go before you inform "

Is it wrong? Türk dili hocasý falan olan yok mu yawf açýklayýn. Bu ne benim de kafam karýþtý

Ýsimfiil yapmak istesek "gidiþinden önce haber ver" derdik deðil mi? Hatta sanýrým burda bi ek düþmüþ. Bu söylemin kaynaðý

Gitmezden önce olmalý. Burada tam belli oluyor olumsuz cümle anlamý. Deðil mi?

 I truely believe it _-me/-ma can not be the neagtive suffix.. it must be tutrnin verb into a noun..

The second thing is you can use "gelmezden önce" form, meaning adding -mez suffix.  It is not commonly used, that´s why it sounds a bit weird.

Third thing, I have been thinking that i have definitely heard something like - gelmenden önce - meaning before your coming... or - in a sentence like:

Bu köye elektriðin gelmesinden önce insanlar gaz lambasi yakarlardý..

I don´t know know what you call it, but it sounds pretty correct to me.

Isn´t there a Turkish Language Expert?? Yes it is weird for us discussing this Merih.

Your explanations sounds right as well, but still my explanation has value to be true.

Gelmenden önce is a usage yes. Here me makes the verb noun, true.

But gelmezden önce is also used. I am very sure. And it is made of negative form.

So which one is right?

Ah haaa! I must find a Turkish teacher to be sure of it

 Hi Anka, nice to meet you.. i did not say gelmezden once is wrong.. i said it is used in this way as well as in the other way.. but I checked the internet... -mez here is not a negative suffix, it is :

3. ZARF FÝÝL EKÝ (ULAÇ, BAÐ – EYLEM):

Fiil kök ve gövdelerinin üzerine –ýnca, - dýkça, - dýðýnda, -ken , -r… -mez, -alý, -erek, -madan, -meksizin, -a…-a, -ýp

ekleri getirilerek oluþturulur. Zarf- fiil ekleri temel cümlenin zarf tümleci olurlar.

Nice to meet you too...

Hmmmmm harika! Türkçe öðretelim derken biz de öðreniyoruz.

Benim gibi dil düþkünü bir insan bunu nasýl kaçýrmýþ yahu?

Saðool saðol saðol. Walla sayende yeni bi þey öðrendim.

"-mez" "-meden" de bað fiil yapýyormuþ.. Vay bee..

Üniversite sýnavýna girerken anlattýlar da unuttuk mu acaba !?

Teþekkürler.

Ama insanlarýn kafasýný karýþtýrmayalým daha fazla.

Bunu nasýl açýklamalý acep? Neyse hocalarýna sorsunlar

 Well, though it sounds a bit negative, it is not.. I believe.. but I don´t know how to explain it.. and i think, like anka has mentioned: gidip gelmeden (once) bilemezsin.. here once has fallen off.. I think.. 

I am still confused but si++, your study of Turkish is quite admirable!!

By the way your reserach is of course correct:

 checked its old Turkish form (which is -meti -medi medin -metin from Grammer of Old Turkish A. Von Gabain) and I think older forms seem clear enough to me that there is -me- negative verb suffix there.

if you noticed the verb suffixes are at the end.

On the other hand if you were to use gelmeden in the following sentence:

gelmeden yapamazsin, gelerek yapabilirsin...

then it is negative..

but you can´t use the same logic with önce.. that´s why it is not negative.. again i believe...

gelmeden once - gelden once?????

Personally I find it equal to "without" rather than "before" but "before" also seems OK.

How ´bout this:

Çalýþmadan testi geçemezsin = You cannot pass the test without studying it

Yeah you may still object to it also but I perceive it that way. It seems to me a necessity rather than a time sequence.

I agree that would be wrong to add -den suffix  to verb stem. What I am saying there is still a negative meaning there.

How do you know my research is correct? You have the same book?

 HMM you find the structure perfect ? hmmmm

 Yes, your example is correct... it has a negative meaning because you can also make it with a positive one:

çalýþmadan geçemezsin...

çalýþarak geçebilirsin...

but when you use before after it, it change things...

By the way, i am not trying to be a pain.. all I am doing is trying to discuss.. i am not after any kind of fight or anything.. so if I have been to direct or offended you in any way, sorry....

Nice heart Merih i don´t believe you have cause any offending, i believe si++ is also only discussing the point. He works hard, doesn´t he? I admire someone working on my native language more than i do.. Ha ha

And i am still confused about this. Both of yours come right in a way..

Nearly perfect

Not offended. It´s been a good discussion.

 ..... ok...........???????? 

Ha ha! Baþtan söylesene yahu si++ Ben de elin gavýrý bak nasý da çalýþýyo biliyo dilbilgimizi bizim kafamýz karýþtý diye ezilmiþtim.. Ha ha.. Just joking of course