http://www.learnist.org/norwegian-police-let-old-turkish-woman-die/

You may have heard of a Turkish family in Norway calling the emergency service asking for an ambulance to save their dieing mother. Instead of help, they are faced by the prejudices about what might actually have happened. The telephone conversations on record indicate that the emergency service becomes suspicious of the family and call the police instead of sending an ambulance. The lady on the phone reports the incident to the police saying: "...there is a strange family on the line, probably Pakistani or something like that. We are suspicious of them. We want you to check the place before we get there. Probably nothing will come out of it."

The family reacts to the police car saying we asked for an ambulance and there is a state of panic, yelling and chaos.

The old lady dies in the end.  Congratulations emergency service.

"Norway does it again"? I agree, what happened was horrible, but to say "Norway does it again" is like doing the exact same thing that you have complained about.

Certainly not. We are talking about the conduct of public institutions. In this particular incident, two different public instutions are involved. The way they handled the situation is on file. The prejudicial statements are openly communicated. In the end, an old lady who would propably survive were the situation not handled like that, lost her life. This is no joke. I am deeply suspicious of the anti Islamic sentiment in Europe.

Well, yes, there is anti-islamic sentiment in Europe, some of it is understandable where it´s coming from (meaning, hearing news about mosques preaching about hatred towards non-muslims and such), some/most of it is pure propaganda... However, what happened in this case that you mentioned, is definitely racism. You´re right that this is an unacceptable, racist response of the public service. I still find it somewhat strange and maybe a tad bit racist to say that "norway does it". You are generalizing over millions of people that you don´t know.

That the lady has died is very sad, and if mistakes have been made, this is very sad and a disgrace...

HOWEVER, I have serious doubts about this article. The way it has been written, it is clearly not a news article, but somebody venting some frustration. Probably a case of hear-say, in very bad English. So, I googled for a better article about this, and it became clear that the link provided here is not what really happened. There were no 7 partol cars, there were no 30 police men. A girl called the police about her sick mother, in broken Norwegian, so the police came. They arrived and saw that the situation was not for the police to fix, so the wanted to contact the ambulance. The girl got very angry, because the police didn´t help her mom (which they couldn´t) and started to make a fight. The police made the mistake her that they didn´t try hard enough to calm her, but beat her. Normally this would be normal police procedure. If you are attacked, you stop the attacker. However, in this case they should have tried harder to understand the girl´s frustration.

The ambulance arrived short after, but at this time it was too late for the mother.

So, still sad, but NOT the situation as described by that article. These kind of articles only make people hate eachother. This was not a situation of muslim-hate, or foreigner hate. It was a case of serious missunderstandings.

Don´t fall for these kind of hate-seeding articles, and check every thing you read 10 times.

Hah, I did not even check that link or the story..

Well, there are plenty of other links as well. It is just a matter of checking them.

Today, the incident was on the news. Turkey gave a note to Norway asking them to investigate the matter thoroughly.

I know, and I don´t say there was no incident. I´m just saying that the way the article was written in the given link is hate-seeding. It´s making the incident something that it wasn´t. There was a mistake, of one or two policemen... it wasn´t a big organised attack by the Norwegian police to beat up Muslims.

The incident needs to be investigated, but these kind of articles make some people have crazy reactions. Crazy reactions to things that never really happened.

It is only understandable when we realize we only hear about what is reported to us.  Did you hear about this? 

Top Muslim Clerics issue Fatwa denouncing Terror attacks....

just a little opinion of mine. i happent to know many norwegians. i have friends.

and i can say that norwegians are not racist not they are inhospitable unlike some europeans.

its a shame that vineyards didnt check his sources a bit better and tried to start a fire like always. (possibly after a couple of nice expensive wines).

and well done for you barba!

Good advice Barba Mama....here is what I found....from Norway News

"A 63-year old Turkish woman, Dondu Tulum, had a cardiac attack at her house in Oslo on January 3. Her son-in-law, Fedai Ucarli, called for an ambulance. Since paramedics were late, he made several other calls and yelled at officers. After paramedics called the police, policemen came to Turkish family´s house and handcuffed Ucarli and his wife in the middle of the street. Neighbors witnessed the incident and recorded it. Ambulance arrived at house 45 minutes after the first call. The old woman died at home in lack of medical assistance."

Forty-five minutes for an emergency iseems like a long time to me....and accrding to this article it was a man who called, not a girl.  The ambulence took 45 minutes...hardly a short time.  There is no mention of how many patrol cars or police were sent. 

Perhaps one of the first lessons all immigrants should get is how to call emergency and how to act when calling and interacting with them.  There have been too many tragic stories in the US, resulting in death, when people called emergency and were hysterical when "help" arrived.

I know emergency workers.  They are the best people I have ever known, but they are put in a very stressful situation trying to help people who are too often hysterical.

The title is a rather sweeping statement, which I´m sure was not meant how it sounds.

In London if any one calls for an ambulance no matter what the ailment or type of emergency, if aggression or a disturbance is heard medics are never sent without police being on scene first. Sometimes this does cause a substantial delay.

I have no knowledge of how Norway fairs on the racist front as a whole but medics have their job to do without bias without predudice, but they do have the right to do their job as safely as possible.

What statement? There have been a number of them in this thread, exactly what one do you mean?

 I believe I was referring to the title, of which there is only one

Thank you for that clarification.  Don´t you think some type of basic lesson on how to interact with the emergency process would be a good idea?  In the US there have been similar incidents, and people died in those cases as well.  At least people know to dial an emergency number, it´s 911 in th US.  What the process is after dialing and help omes seems to me to be a very important part of the process that needs to be learned.

When you enter a country for an extended time, you should know what the process is and how to interact with those who are trying to help.

 It´s one of those things about who is responsible for this?

Is it the individual´s reponsibility? but then who ever thinks they are going to have to call for an ambulance or other emergency service

Is it immigration? I know here those waiting for asylum are given reams of information about healthcare, council services.

Is it up to the emegency services to educate? education processes are done through the schools.

At the end of the day if caller or patient are displaying violent or aggressive tendencies they themselves have caused a delay and should accept responsibility for their own actions

We can approach the matter in two different ways:

You must be qualified to make a call to the emergency service. You may be considered suspicious if you have an accent or speak in an excited manner.

or

Emergency Service must be qualified and trained to handle different situations professionally without expecting the inquirer to be qualified. (the inquirer can be a child, a tourist, a disabled person etc.)

If you think the first approach is true then you think it is perfectly normal to let foreigners who are not aware of the procedures to go through this and face death in the end. This approach entails that inquirer must be trained about how to ask for help from emergency first aid professionals. This approach also disregards the fact there may be panic and chaos in emergency situations and that different cultures react and handle such situations differently.

Was this approach right, they would have to hang disclaimers on the walls of customs offices notifying people that they may be arrested if they do not know the procedures in the country. Because you don´t need to be an immigrant to go through this, a tourist might as well lose his/her life due to lack of knowledge of procedures.

If you believe the second approach is the right one then you think help professionals must be qualified, trained and ready to respond to a great variety of situations on account that their job is crucially important and understanding the situation at hand and being able to extend proper help regardless of how complicated the situation can be, is their utmost priority.

Furthermore, the family is reported to have correctly explained the problem, giving proper directions to their location but were responded with silly questions like: "what is your job?" etc. Being furious when no help was sent they call the service angrily this time, the police gets there and the situation becomes terribly chaotic.

I can´t claim the family handled situation correctly. How come can you be certain about the emergency service´s way of handling all this? I have also listened to the translations of telephone conversations between the police and the emergency service and I think, the general lack of attention and evident prejudiced apprach justifies the headline I chose.

Let´s isolate this incident from war of civilizations. Let us blame institutions or people for what they do or what they don´t do. I hope the Norwegian government investigates this and makes a satisfying explanation. I also hope they train their emergency personnel to handle inquiries from foreigners properly. 

I think who ever has made the choice to be a professional emergency service worker has the bulk of responsibility.  In the US even if you just call, service comes via the ability to know the exact location via the phone system.  Nothing needs to be said, even cats and dogs have been trained to call.

If there is a human who can speak on the other end, the EMS phone person attempts to get as much information as possible, and give advice as what to do in that particular emergency.

Why anyone would ask any question about employment is beyond me.  Had the EMS gotten there in time, perhaps they could have helped the woman. I know a few people who were "dead" and revived by EMS.  Had they not gotten there in a timely manner, those people would never have been revived.   

Not just that they ask many other irrelevant questions like what your nationality is etc.

What I am objecting is the fact that everyone is assuming something about this family:

emergency service assumed there was no real emergency

the police assumed there is some sort of crime

the posters on this forum assume the family don´t know how to make a call and stuff like that.

We are driven by all these silly stereotypes. Many people on the Internet assume tons of laughable things about you when you begin to speak to them. They have a picture of a Turk = muslim = potential trouble in their minds. This last incident is a tragic example showing the gravity of the problem with stereotypes.

Empathy and sympathy are two concepts that can cure the present problem.  This is true for all countries not just Europe or the US. A prefered way to deal with problems involving other cultures must be sympathizing with their needs and trying to understand their motives. We do this even to animals. We try to establish empathy with a lion and base our relationship on the nature of this animal. When it comes to people, we resort to our stereotypes which effectively maims any interaction with individuals whose cultures and mindsets are different from ours.

It is terrible the mother died, however, I´m far from accusing Norway of racism. I understand that in a stressful situation it´s easy to blame everything on racism, but let´s be fair and wonder if that´s really the case.

As far as i know there are procedures all public services have to stick to, aren´t there? You may dislike the fact that a question of nationality is asked in an emergency situation, Vineyards, but there must be a reason or precedence to it. In Ireland, when you go to A&E, you´re asked what your religion is, and that´s regardless of your ethnicity. Don´t forget that people in the emergency services are just workers, not gods. They base their actions on the spoken report of the caller. If the caller´s language is bad, it´s pretty hard to blame them for not taking the right course of action. As for the police, Les said it´s a standard procedure when dealing with aggression. Again, hard to blame paramedics for wanting to be protected and safe.

It is saddening that incidents like that happen. But they don´t happen to foreigners only, how often do we hear about ambulance not being sent somewhere because the dispatcher made a wrong assumption or misjudged the situation?

And you still think we must stick to existing procedures rather than improving them or blaming them when they give way to disasters like this...

Correct me if I am wrong but I don´t remember talking about racism explicitly. Racism must be much more comprehensive than this. It must involve things like deliberate denial of service etc. In this case, we are talking about stereotypes and their consequences. I also made a reference to the anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe. There is a more general picture of Europe in my mind and racistic attitudes find a place in it but this would be another discussion. It can hardly be seen in political statements, laws and regulations. Instead, what I am talking about is merely an attitude and it is a part of the European lore. Similar attitudes exist in many other countries including our own. Whereas ours is -though rarer- mostly blatantly expressed, brutally exercised acts of crime, the European attitude is more undercover and tactful which also makes it more effective.

My very childish first respons to this was ...plfffff

But since I want to sound adult, let me explain. The article that you linked was clearly written with the purpose of pointing out a racist act, even though they distorted the event. So ofcourse people talk about racism, after reading this article. This was my main point of critique to this article.

Second of all, Europe is not a single country! How can people keep talking about events in Europe, as if it´s one big blob?

And I have seen a lot of racism and stereotypes in Turkey as well. No, they did not involve violence. Since people can not see my cultural background from my looks, they sometimes share their distorted views with me, without realising that the stereotype they are talking about IS me. I have met the same kind of stereotypes and the same style of stereotyping (hidden and sneeky) in both Turkey, as well as Holland.

im your fan!

I was just trying to show the reason behind sending the police there. I´m far from judging the rules as good or bad. My point was that they were not made up for nothing. Procedures are always based on what had happened before. If a caller sounds aggressive police gets there to see if it´s safe for paramedics to come there and I assume it´s regardless of the caller´s ethnic origin. The questions asked by the dispatcher must have a logical explanation too. I suppose our friends with medical background could shed more light on it.

I don´t like the way you´re comparing anti-Islamic and anti-European attitudes without acknowledging the difference in the amount of foreigners on both sides of the barricade. Like it or not, the number of Muslims in the west is greatly bigger than the number of westerners in the east. It could be an idea to compare the number of people not given proper emergency care in Norway. I wonder if the percentage of Norwegians who died in result of bad emergency care is significantly lower than the one of Muslims. And only if it is can you point out the anti-Islamic sentiment in healthcare.

+10000

I know that someone will not accept the realities altough these realities are plain as a pikestaff.

Explaining the background of emergency services´ processes can just be the approach of a politician or davil´s advocate but not a single person who criticises the events in justice and just wishes the world to be a more peaceful place. All these processes are being established to improve the quality of individuals´ lifes regardless with their religions, ethnicity, language, colour of skin or gender choices. And in that case the system is complately failed. The reason of this failure is subsconscious of people in the west which is canalized by the mass media: "Muslim´s are dengeraous."
After the cold war ends the U.S needed a new reason for conflicts. And it seems they succeed on this lie.
Whoever do not blame that event helps the aims of these bloody people.

This event is not a unique event. It is unfortunately very easy to order lots of events in a row happened in all Europe. I will not order those now. I will remain that to fair peoples´ memories.

The thing i want to say is; ethnocentreism is tragicly improving in all Europe. Residents of Europe shall say stop to that by an effectful public opinion. Otherwise all we will lose... Let me remember you that an important politicians sentence about Nazismus. "Nazismus was a huge matter as much as we could not talk about it." Please dont let the Europe to have a fascist era again and stop racism against Muslims.

Last sentence; if a case like that happens in Turkey i am sure i would be the first one who blame that event by using all my possibilities. I know that most of Turkish people are like me.

That´s an unfair generalisation, Oeince. Like I said before, the data about religion or ethnicity are collected for a purpose, not only for statistics. I did some Googling and found a few reasons behind this "invasion of privacy".

First of all there´s a matter of language. Most European countries are obligued to provide a patient with free interpreter service to ensure no medically important information is lost due to poor language skills. As it is impossible to have interpreters of all languages residing at hospitals 24/7, they are usually given a call from the hospital should their presence be required. If a person with poor language skills calls the er, I assume they ask about the nationality in order to be able to summon the interpreter as quickly as possible.

Also, some diseases are more likely to occur within certain ethnic groups, which also provides reason for asking about ethnicity.

Then, religion is a big deal to some people and knowing the religion, health services can provide you with the care you might expect from them (ie Jehova Witnesses do not accept blood transfusions, some Muslims might not want to be examined by a doctor of opposite sex etc). It is also to provide you with religious service should you need one (ie Catholic priest for confession).

And I´ve already written about sending police to aggressive sounding callers.

Where´s racism in it? Or where´s discrimination of Muslims?

As far as I know it is not standard procedure for services in Holland to ask about your religion or ethnicity. To be 100% sure I´ll check later with one of my friends who is a doctor (so more info will follow). Only when you are admitted to the hospital they ask about your religion for food purposes, and to make sure no products are used that you might not want. (A lot of pig-products are used in medical care, because of the animal´s similarity to humans...no joke I guess giving a Muslim or Jew a part of a pig in their heart wouldn´t be very halal or kosjer)

But, since Europe is Europe, and not several countries, I must be wrong, right? Since every European country is the same, works the same, and has the same rules and procedures.

Update... my doctor friend is currently too busy to talk (busy saving lives or something... pffff)

But I have asked my non-ethnic Dutch, very Muslim, but not Turkish friend about her experiences in Holland with doctors and other services in Holland, and the experiences of her family. And no point has she been asked about either her ethnicity or her religion. In her opinion, she thinks asking about ethnicity is not very usefull, and if you go to a hospital it would be better if they would ask about your religion (since there are Christians from Iraq and Muslim from India, etc.) But the only thing that her family has been asked related to religion when they went to a hospital, is if they had special diet wishes (the exact same question was asked to my very Dutch grandpa) and if there were other wishes that they had to take into account.

So THERE! Europe is made out of Norway and Holland, to different countries with different regulations...perhaps I´ll discover more European countries soon!

Just got a hold of my doctor friend. He told me that it is NOT ALLOWED for medical services in Holland to ask about ethnicity or religion in this way. So no way that if you call for an ambulance, anybody would ask you "but what are you exactly?"

are you saying that mass media created all all that? so bombings, terror acts, murder of journalists who dared to criticize "the religion of peace" are made up by media and such dont happen?

well.... i think we are all fed up by these justifications.

I am focusing on just one version of the truth the one that involves the treatment the Turkish family were subjected to. I have no problems with Europe being a cradle of civilizations where racism is unheard of. As a matter of fact, we must be talking specifically about Norway. That Norway is in Europe and that Europe is way more civilized than aggressive and oppressive East  are completely irrelevant.

I am sure, anyone living anywhere would complain did anything of this sort happen to them. I can´t understand why some of you are trying to come up with excuses, comparisons etc.

What does it take to say, "I protest" or at least "I dislike the way two of Norway´s major public organization handled that situation?

I would agree with you if you would say "I dislike the way some of the employees of two of Norway´s public organisations handled that situation" but your generalising statements withhold me from agreeing.

It´s similar as saying "all muslims are terrorists" versus "those who set up the bombs are terrorists".

Trudy, organizations are run by people and they are supposed to make mistakes like anything handled by humans and I am not naive enough to claim that the aformentioned organizations are racist institutions.

It is however, those institutions´ responsibility to make sure that mistakes, ommissions and misconducts of this sort are thoroughly investigated. After all, misconduct is unfortunately a frequently observed aspect of human character. When investigations point out to an omission or an offense then those institutions must disassociate themselves from the mistakes of the persons involved in it by offering compensations, making formal apoligies, and by either prosecuting or punishing the perpetrators depending on the nature of the offense.

As you may have noticed I wrote those institutions and those persons. Because we are not talking about a single mistake committed by a single person instead we are talking about a chain of omissions, misunderstandings, and an utter lack of sympathy. Telephone conversations further denote to the presence of ethnic prejudices.

From a legal point of view, there is a death the cause of which must be investigated. There is suspicion over the roles of the family, emergency service and the police. In any modern country, this incident is stringently analyzed and investigated with an eye to establishing justice.

Therefore, I don´t have to restrain my thoughts when talking about possibilities. I am sure about the presence of some sort of omission and I believe any seasoned prosecutor would leave all doors open when handling a case like this with multiple potential culprits.

According to the Global Peace Index 2009, in the category of "hostility to foreigners" Norway gets 0/5, while Turkey gets 4/5. Where is your (Turkish people in general, and Vineyards in particular) criticism of yourselves? I only see how all of you complain of you being discriminated and victimized, but what about your own xenophobic and racist attitudes?

That is not to say that you are wrong to criticize others, but it sounds very suspicous and hypocritical when you yourselves behave in ways that apparently are worse then what you criticize in others.. and you don´t say or do anything about that. It kind of looks like Turkey has more to improve then Norway does in this respect..

I agree, Turkey needs to improve much more than Norway. As a result, it is adviced, do not come to Turkey or live in Turkey, you would probably be beaten, raped, tortured or killed(if u are armenian, be more careful in Turkey). There is terrorism in Turkey as well and we cannot keep up with the famous globalization... 

Catwoman there seems to be no cure for the habitual misconception that inflict most of your comments. I don´t know how and where you picked it up but you are thinking almost solely by way of comparisons. Note: I should have said "by way of retaliations" here.

Imagine I am from Harlem and the guys in say Manhattan beat me up whenever I show up there. When I go to the police station and complain of the incidents and point out to the repeating nature of them also implying there is some sort of ethnic prejudice in it they say:

Now that you live in Harlem, you have no right to complain.

Instead of doing that I can post on Turkish Class or write to the editor etc. What does it take for you to understand it.

It is very rude of you to imply I have racistic, xenophobic and hypocritical attitudes. No matter what you say to deny having made these accusations it is clear that some of those directly or indirectly apply to me personally too.

Having posted all those critiques, I don´t think my private life is inflicted with any of the alleged accusations. Those of us who have known me personally will probably confirm this point.

If you think I went to the extremes by chosing a dubious title for the thread, picking a wrong article as reference and posting those messages, you can lock the thread, delete my posts and send me a warning. Because there is certainly nothing offensive in the language or the way it is brought up. But please, be careful when accusing people publicly with things like racism etc.

I am basically a user on these forums. Though I have responsibilities, I have no way to abuse or misuse any responsibility. I cannot cause deaths of people by misconduct or I cannot maul people by incorrectly enforcing the rules. Subject me to the kind of punishment that I am capable of receiving and don´t dare to compare them with gravity of mistakes committed on a public level.

Under the circumstances, we must suggest that people should bring along their helmets, camouflage suits and bullet-proof vests when entering the country. Because as it seems, Turkey is only marginally better than likes of Afghanistan and Nigeria which are notoriously dangerous.

Those who have been here before. Don´t believe in your own eyes people, what you see is not always what you get. There are religious and political leaders who rank countries to their hearts´ content.

Like I said... I have experienced very racist and discriminating comments by Turkish people, simply because they didn´t understand that they were actually talking about me I have Kurdish friends, and really had my toe wiggling in my shoes as Turkish people started talking very bad about Kurdish people to me. I´ve also been somewhere with a slick looking Zaza (he looked very Turkish I guess) who could understand a bunch of Kurdish kids who were saying bad things to him in Kurdish. Stuff like "Look at that idiot Turk in his suit, thinks he´s all that simply because he´s a Turk" The only thing that every country has in common is that every country has racists in them. I have been in Turkey, with Dutch people talking to me about how they wouldn´t like their daughter to be with a Turk... good enough for a holiday I guess, not good enough for a relationship. Luckily, every country also has some smart (or was it stupid ) people in them who are not racist, xenofobic, etc. Hopefully these people can educate those racists

While your post makes sense, my real emphasis is on the need of isolating incidents not combining them.

It is of course terrible that there are racists in Turkey. But it does not have anything to do with the situation in Norway. A mistake is a mistake everywhere...

Armegon, Vineyards... as I said, you have every right to criticize racism when you see it in others, but since you are so sensitive to people´s suffering, how come I don´t see you criticizing yourselves/your country? People are people no matter what nationality they are, and you have more power changing your own country then other countries, and as it seems there is a lot of work you/your country need to do. I definitely sympathize with the victims of racism in Norway/Europe.. but I do not believe that some of the people here (and I don´t mean Vineyards) are so concerned with racism because they are sensitive to ALL racism, but only when people from their country/their religion encounter problems. They see no problem with their own racism.

Is there a ration of some sort. Do we have to criticize Turkey a set number of times before we can post a critique of Norway?

Ah yes, and we all are familiar with the hospitality of countries like New Zealand, Denmark, Norway and Iceland...............We know how they welcome foreigners.  I would question who compiled the list and what their standards were.

I do find it interesting that mistakes such as the one in this thread seem to happen more often to persons of color than to our paler brothers. There does seem to be a problem here.  I doubt if it has anything to do with color or culture, but who has the power and how resources are shared.

 FYI - There is some info on the left side of the link about who the experts are and the methodology in collecting the info. 

Strangely enough, the experts are from the most peaceful countries....just an observation

Yes, I am aware of that....and how hospitable those countries in the top are noted as being.....but this really digresses from the issue of emergency service functionality in a First World Country.

cw, you dont know what you are talking, you are again the one who diverted subject to Turkey and i didnt comment on this thread till this. As far as i remember many times i have seen when Turkey was being lowered here in past, a Turkish member put forward similar examples from other countries, you and some members were whinning, can you remember?

By the way i was serious in my previous comment on this thread not an irony. I cannot advice any foreigners to come to Turkey and to live in Turkey after i had checked your link "Global Peace Index", i guess this would be better for them and better for Turks as well.  Apart from these i know the problems of my country and try to say my truths and critics as much as i can, since here most of the topics are about Turkey. And i know how you criticize if the western countries should be condemned like "yes it was horrible but blah blah", "yes im very sad however blah blah". Anyway i dont care you call me racist, feel free to do it, i got used to hear it from the times of theh ... 

 Armegon..in cat´s and mine lg there is a saying,an old wisdom kind

nie odwracaj kota ogonemwhich literally means

don´t divert the cat ...

cat knew what nick to choose)

an, I said what I meant - I sympathize with victims of racism, but I seriously doubt the sincerity of some people who keep on criticizing others, but are unable to criticize themselves, and turn very aggressive and defensive when that is pointed out. As I said, people like that will turn around and abuse others when THEY are in the position of power.

I don´t blame Norway on this, stereotypes exist for a reason. That persons death has to be blamed as much on criminal immigrants who created the stereotype and who wouldn´t hesitate to blow the medics head off in such a scenario.

We should really get this people back from Europe, with the constantly rising tension they will both hurt and get hurt more and more. And how these people, for the love of God, become so extreme? There are more radical Islamists amongst the 5 mil. Turks in Europe than whole Turkey. Multiculturalism doesn´t work, neither for natives nor for immigrants.

  you are copying again, let me remind you once more, who doubt about who is sincerety first, just remember the wilders thread and your u-turns, does it sound similar?

I had a look at the results of the results of the investigation. I said howcomes Austuria can be the 5th most peaceful country...Weren´t they suffer from extreme nationalist politicians power just a year ago? Then i looked Turkey´s ranking ohhh what a dengeraus country is that! Turkey is under Mali, Uganda, Cameroon, Iran, Turkmenistan, Haiti, Yemen, even Venezualla, even Cyprus, Malavi, Libya, Tanzania, Bolivia ( omg even USA what a horrible country is that

So i decided to check the indicators and methodology of the reseach. Becouse Turkey should be more peaceful than warrier countries or the counrtries where photograpy is even forbidden; or drug seller countries and internal warriers...

I realized that power of military is a negative indicator as well as conflicts with other countries. Potantiel to terrorist acts are also negative indicators.

According to those indicators it is very easy for a person to rank Turkey at the deepest place of the list. Turkey has a powerful military, has terrorizm, problems with Armenia and Cyprus. Guys, if Turkey werent support peace in the world she would not mass with finding diplomatic solutions to the conflicts with those countries. If terrorism werent being supported by "peaceful" countries things would be easier.

However that does not mean Turkey perfoms well about peace. She has serious problems on poltical instability, (but not as much as Mali has , terrorism, personal rights of all individuals and better relationships with neighbours although some of their´s difficile attitudes. Let me remind u that Turkey is in a very significant process to solve all those problems.

Coming back to the main thread i really dont think that Turkey deserves 0 on hostility to foreigners. We can rather talk about over hospitality to forigners especially if they are women Seriously i think that investigation does not display an objective view. But for sure we all have too much to do for peace in the country and peace in the world.

Don´t worry nobody blames Norway for anything. With ill-famed people like those, they might as well send a team of veterinerians as these people are aggressive and dangerous by nature. They might use tranquilizers on the aggressive Turks. All indicators point out to a better success rate were a team of vets put in charge. This way, in countries like Norway, people of dubious nationalities could at least expect to receive some emergency service.

It is not necessary to bring up what happened to the poor woman. The Turks in Norway is one less now which is a welcome development. She would not be able to represent Turkey positively anyway.

As for arranging to get them sent back to Turkey. Yes that would indeed be the solution. We can build a giant fridge in the heart of Anatolia and keep them out of sight forever.

You know sometimes we cannot be very accurate with the links we provide. Since our main intention is usually to support our own thesis, we occassionally come up with questionable references.

I don´t have to show any respect to those idiots who put up that list. Even a ten year old could discover the grotesque errors evident in the results. It is not even necessary to check out the methodology.

Some things can indeed be discovered using reasoning, that is how Chandrasekhar calculated the presence of blackholes. A list like that can not be prepared without having first hand knowledge about the countries ranked.

Oh come on vineyards, first of all I am Turkish, both as nationality and ethnically (and racially as well, I am yörük)

Just look at Kaplan and his men in Germany. He appointed himself as the rightful "khaliffah" and declared war on Turkey. What the hell? How come we don´t have such crackheads in Turkey? These people are victims of immigration and multiculturalism, as much as those native people who think their lifestyle is under threat. It just doesn´t work for both sides.

There is no need for sugarcoating and drowning in political correctness so much that we don´t know what we are talking about anymore. I don´t want my people to hurt and to get hurt, at the same time I don´t want them to assimilate. Which seems to contradict, because it is the nature of the beast. Humans are genetically xenophobic, you can´t do anything about it.

OK. I wrote it in the heat of the moment but I hope, I could get my message through in the end.

So you are now taking him more seriously and calmly because he´s Turkish, eh? Sorry if my post came across as if I was accusing you, or anyone in particular here of racism - because I was not, and I can see why it had made you angry, but I am disappointed by this.

No. Admittedly, I had written a longer message where I drew his attention to several things including the one you are complaining of. Seeing that he wanted to play down the matter , I just deleted what I wrote and posted a shorter message focusing on my own attitude.

Now that a suspicion has occured about this matter; I must clarify by saying that I also think that being a Turk does not change a thing.

As a matter of fact, I seriously dislike the prevalent mentality in my country, I detest so many aspects of the established culture. Living in today´s Turkey feels like being stuck in a cesspool of corruption, ignorance and deceit. In a big country with crowded cities, things do not always develop the way you want them to. We have to go through all of these not-so-welcome changes in society. No society has ever been perfect and it will probably will never be.

This however, will not stop me from criticizing a country about an incident involving tragic elements. You see I have a very poor image of my own country in many regards. Still I am aware of its good aspects too. The only difference between some of you frequent posters here is that I try not to think by retailiations. This approach is extremely counter-productive.

If I didn´t take you seriously, I wouldn´t take my time and post these long messages... To me, everyone contributing here is valuable. Ask yourself, if it is really so for some of us.

Isn´t it true that some users are booed at from time to time, their posts are laughed at, found boring etc. In my opinion, the reason behind that is intolerance. We should thank these posters for contributing with their points of view. Some of them may have decided to leave. Pity because, all their desire was to share something with us rather than talking about dudus and all that usual stuff.

Dear Catwoman;

I think Vineyards might have thought I am a run of the mill White nationalist/ xenophobic European, since when I read my post again even I thought so. That must be why he wrote all that tolerance stuff and politically correct but practically incorrect humanist mumbo jumbo we all are too tired of. Yeah sorry.

Ofcourse most of us on here love to go to Turkey. But we can´t deny that some parts of it are dangerous. Ofcourse the threat of bombings makes a country more dangerous! And ofcourse the whole military thing that´s going on in the east makes a country more dangerous. I remember sitting safely in my hotel room in a Turkish resort, and seeing Turkish planes bombing mountains near the Eastern border of Turkey. If you´re living in that part of Turkey, you´re not feeling that safe. I also remember several bombings in Turkish resorts themselves. It sucks, and I myself still feel safe in Turkey, but what can you do...

Anywayyyy, enough about Turkey! Back to Norway... The whole thing that started this discussion was the question if this was really something that is a racist act, reflective of Norway. (I hope we all agree by now that this can not possibly be a reflective act of Europe as a whole, since my in depth investigation into Dutch practices  ) I still can´t say if this was a racist act. The facts are not clear. I think it´s normal to send the police when somebody threatens ambulance personel, even when it´s on the phone. Around large parts of the world violence against public service personel has risen. It is important to keep these people safe. Yes, somehing CLEARLY has gone wrong in this Norwegian case. But WHAT went wrong, nobody here really knows. I hope the results of the investigations around this will be published.

I feel terribly sorry for having written this wishy-washy, unnecessarily lengthy humanist mumbo jumbo.

I understand, I am stealing from your focus and your time when you are so busy learning English.

 I agree with you.

Ok first of all I think I was rude and I want to apologize. But come on Vineyards, don´t take it so badly. Don´t you think your post kinda lacked real substance? Sounded to me like every other humanist preaching out there.

I don´t know what is your understanding of humanism is. Can you clarify this point?

Maybe that would be a nice new thread, as that is a very deep subject that can digress even more than this one?

It would be interesting to expore the xenophobic aspect of cultures, don´t you think?  Aren´t humans actually tribal in nature?

  I think we do this everyday! 

When I think of human history, one thing that disturbs me badly is when I see a group of people who has been terribly oppressed at one time, and that groups becomes just as bad of oppressors themselves at another point in time. An obvious example is Israel here..

It seems unthinkable that people who have suffered terribly can actually turn around and do the same to others... So I´m wondering, what is wrong with us? And the only answer I can think of is that we are quick to criticize others, but not able to criticize ourselves. That is something I see a lot among all nationalities.. Americans, Turkish, Polish.. etc. What is special to Turkish people is that they do complain a lot about racism in Europe (sometimes rightfully, sometimes simply as a habit), but they never criticize their own country for the terrorism it does to their own population. That is why I cannot sympathize with those people at all, they are hypocrites to me, who are accomplices in the crime, and deserve to be punished.

However, I have not directed my original post in this thread to anyone in particular, especially not at Vineyards.

Couple famous quotes come to mind..

"In situation of oppression, those who remain neutral take the side of the oppressor." (Desmond Tutu)

Yes, it is depressing to think one who suffered oppression and abuse can become an oppressors & abuseors, but it happens.  On the other hand, not all, or even a majority do, so cheer up.

I think too much focus is on who perpetuates it.  It actually re-victimizes the oppressed and abused.

Most of humanity is compassionate.

Yeah, i have seen many hypocrites as well, who are trying their best to justify terrorism by using famous terms like democracy and human rights, so that i cannot sympathise with them certainly, i think those are most dangerous than those terrorists and deserve to be punished...

Such a very amazing link!
Thanks you for the post.
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