Even when a woman can prove with medical documents that she IS a virgin, courts rule in favour of men who claim their wife wasn´t a virgin on the first night of the marriage.

What about all the men who aren´t virgins too? Can women send their husband back if he shows too much experience? 

More

The problem here, is there is no way to find out if a male is virgin or not. And this is not a fault of Turkish legal system but rather a condition that occured by God or nature, so I don´t think there is much that can be done.

As for this whole virginity stuff, I don´t think we even have to discuss this issue. Because when one thinks of the situation this law applies, if the person lied about their condition to their spouse, this is about trust rather than the hymen tissue.

Like I said: his experience probably proves him being a virgin or not. (Personally I must not think of a virgin husband/boyfriend!)

Yeah but penetration of hymen is detectable by medical methods whereas experience is totally subjective, so tehre can´t be anything legal about it. Anyway; what good would it make to continue a marriage when people blame eachother for deception in the first night? To be honest I don´t see anything wrong with revoking such marriages.

My advice would be:

-Find a husband who isn´t concerned about these matters.

-Don´t lie about it to your future husband.

-Or simply keep your pants up, just in case.

Keep your pants up? And then we got the simple problem that a lot of women do NOT have a hymen that bleeds when they have sex the first time. Often just because a hymen is not what a lot of people think a kind of membrane covering her internally but it´s just a little rim. (If you don´t believe that, ask a good doctor!) Plus that sometimes activities as gymnastics or horse riding can make the hymen tear, not to mention using tampons. In short, often women are virgins but can´t physically prove that by bleeding. They are blamed for something nature did wrong. And what for? Because guys are afraid of criticism?

A woman who is has the himen intact but made other kinds of sex can be called a virgin ? 

Other kinds of sex? I´m afraid that for guys who find virginity a matter of life and death these don´t exist! 

I think conditions such as "elastic hymen" have disappeared from our gene pool through natural selection, as those poor girls with the genes were slaughtered for not being virgins. Let the Turkish culture run its course for a few millenia and there you go, %100 guaranteed virgins. (I might be joking )

Have you heard that a Turkish girl was buried alive because she chatted with guys? How could their male relatives so cruel?

 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1147823.html

I was worried that other people will dislike Turkish people because of this crime. I know it is only a solo case, but the media can influence everybody...

Dear Platschu;

I know I am getting closer to being labeled as a racist by writing the same thing over and over but I can not stand this being called "Turkish". "Honor killings" and "female circumsicion" are Kurdish cultural phenomeons, not Turkish. You can look up Adıyaman (where this incident occured) and compare it with an ethnic map to see what I mean.

These things happen in Kurdish populated regions of Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria but very rarely if at all among Turks, Arabs and Persians. Type "Kurdish honour killing" in youtube for a sample that happened in Iraq, among Yazidis(Very very graphic, be warned)

I am respectful to cultures of people so I am not against these things as long as they do not affect or concern Turks, and as long as the yare not labeled "Turkish".

To put the record straight, the Kurds form a considerable percentage of the population of this country. Therefore all their values, traditions, economic stati etc add up to the overall outlook of the entire nation. They are a part of this country hence a part of our collective identity.

Good point Vineyards.....as much as I may like to present the US in "my way", there are others here who won´t let me....(hello Elisabeth...teaschip....and others)...  like it or not...and I´m sure they aren´t that thrilled with my viewpoints either, I must admit, they to are Americans and what they think and feel impacts the total cultural collective.

I´ve been thinking of how desegregation resulted in the loss of many of the very individual and distinctive Black businesses and institutions.  The US calls itself the "melting pot", Canada calls it´s culture a"Mosaic".  In a Mosaic all componants are identifiable and they keep their individual identity, but form beautiful graphics.  In a "Melting Pot" no individual parts can be found, but a unique flavor is the result.

If you don´t want to loose your culture and identity, how do you do it?

such cultural rules had place. individuals are more mobile, more quick to change than cultures, rules, moral dogmas etc.

if woman wants to prove anything with medical document, she probably deserves these rules to be applied to her.

Isn´t it strange to say - I m not virgin - instead of - I agree to marry you? How will man be able to prove he is NOT virgin?

and i agree with post here - as long as smth happened in Turkey, Turks will be labeled for it. does not matter what the origin is etc. It is not about racism or anything like that. Person cannot know history of every country and nation deep enough to understand all undercurrents.

melting pot? i could not talk to person bec after 25 years in usa she did not talk english. she could not understand me at all (dont joke about pronunciation please )) )

mosaic? yes probably. my friend emigrated there. it is 6th year she is learning English, never worked, does not speak to enlg speakers. she is probably part of mosaic, but what kind of picture will be at the end?

you cannot live in isolation in modern world. it means that majority of us are in melting pot. we are boiled soft. at the end there will be some kind of stew: some taste of different vegies, but hard to see whole piece of any.

Not just Americans. European people including Turks are very much that way too. It is just that they don´t know how patriotic they appear to one another.

Our greatest minority are the Gypsies in Hungary. I am not racist either, but when they immigrated to Canada they began to stole, because they don´t like working. And do you know what was the response of the citizens. They must have put warning signs at the entrance of local shops: "Hungarians, don´t steal!". I was shocked after I had heard this news and I became angry because obviously the Hungarians were innocent in these cases... The worse part was I couldn´t do anything to regain our honor.

I know the media can change everything, but our local newspapers and online media sources told us a "Turkish girl". So how should I know whether this crime was made by Turkish or Kurdish or any other nationality? If I couldn´t like your people, your culture then I wouldn´t be here. I didn´t want to make you angry, but I have to report that such news won´t help on the case of Turkey to join to the EU.  

I am reading every news when Istanbul or Turkey or any Turkish related things are mentioned here. I have to tell you so many Hungarians don´t know your country or your people at all, but maybe I will tell about this in an other thread. 

 +1

 +2

Vineyards, simply no. How would you define Turkish cultural identity? Just trace it back 50 years, 100 years, to the Ottomans, the whole Turchia/Alaturka stuff. It is a mix of Byzantine, Balkans and Turkmen nomads, which can be called Anatolian, but in now way Middle Eastern. The identity of Turks shares more in it with Greeks and Armenians than Kurds, you know this to be true. Greek music is closer to us than Kurdish music. We share the Mediterranean kitchen with Greeks and Armenians, contrary to dominantly animal/animal fat based Kurdish cuisine. Genetically again, we are closer to Balkans. You can set aside a Turk and Kurd more easily, because they have visible distinct physical characteristics: brachiosephalic vs dolicosephalic heads. Just google "Cranial index map", you won´t see a dramatic difference between Balkans and Central Turkey, but there is a definite edge in S.E. Turkey.We don´t even share the exact same faith; Kurds are dominantly shafi Muslims, there aren´t any Turks of shafi sect.

Conclusion: The identity known as "Turk" have in it very little from Kurds, or should I say "had". Now that our state has fallen under the rule of Kurd-Islam, a movement started by Said-i Kurdi 100 years ago, nurtured by F.Gulen and harbored by U.S.A and finally risen to power with AKP, the only way for us seems to be accepting Kurdification. This is very saddening, but I am speaking the truth and any sane person knows it. We have already lost and we are slowly dying while our culture is being replaced with something alien. 200 years from now on no one will remember there were once people known as Turks...

Am I sensing some AlphaF identity here?

Is this to me? I don´t know who your are referring to but I have a single account. You can request from the admin to check my ip.

And why ad hominem at this point? Because what I have written is true, isn´t it?

What a strange arguement...

The word Turk can be explained in two ways...either a citizen of modern day Turkey, which most people here refer to. This INCLUDES those pesky Kurds with their pesky Kurdish culture, their language and songs... Ah, the good old days when they weren´t allowed to speak their Kurdish language.. that really helped against the threat of Kurdification.

Anyway, then there is the more historical reference of Turks. The people who migrated from the Asian steppes. These are NOT the people from Greece, but more closely linked to people from Turkmenistan. If you say the modern Turks is linked to Greece, then you are talking about Turks as the definition "modern day citizen of Turkey", which ALSO includes allll those Kurds, and the Arabs, Circassians and many more ethnic backgrounds.

Kurds living in Turkey are Turkish citizens, deal with it. They are therefor Turks, if those Greek and Armenian decendents are also Turks.

It doesn´t have anything with right or wrong. We are talking about differing mentalities or political preferences here.

There are different mentalities based on different interests, desires, and choices. You can spend your entire life  believing in something which others refuse without even thinking about it. That doesn´t mean you are not entitled to having that belief. It is just that sometimes it may be easier for those outside the circle to notice shortcomings of a belief system.

My family lived and mixed up with locals in Greece for hundreds of years. We call ourselves Turk regardless of how we look or who we are ethnically. It is the culture that brings people together.

All turkish citizens are called "Turkish nation" which consists of different races and cultures. and no race and culture is "pesky" here!

 I had a talk about this just the other day! For me, sex is sex. There is no "kind of sex"... But a Muslim female friend of mine proudly states she wants to remain a virgin until she is married. But in my opinion she isn´t! She has done things that made my ears red when I heard it!

Relativity law of Einstein simply summarize what you are saying RIP Albert!

ask Clinton. once he proved that some kind of sex was not a sex...

But how many Western woman want to keep virginity until marriage? It is not a shame at all. But I think it is non-sense that a relative can kill a woman with authorization, because she has enjoyed life previously... How can a patriarchal society be selfish? If she is not pregnant then how cares? And is it good for having a virgin bride instead of an "experienced" one? Maybe this will save their marriage in the future... But I have forgotten divorce is not preferred either. :S

virginity in brain,not between legs i think?btw  i´m sending my best wishes to all members after long time..

welcome back, mr. world peace!

I read this article.  I have watched a film called Havar.  It´s set in Batman.  This film gives a good insight into what can happen when a young girl  is wrongly seen to be flirting with a man. It starts with old women gossiping about the girl and in the end; tragic for the girl!! Its wrong and shows up the ignorance and lack of education among some people in the southeast.  I hope that this will be stopped someday and the authorities are able to take more control of the situation. These young girls need protection and more people fighting on their behalf!!

To put the record straight, firstly you should have to mention that it was not Turks who feel Kurds were not the part of the country but the Kurds themselves. As you see it is not like you try to describe. Besides things changed very quickly by today´s government, hostility grew up, its not suprising to see many separatist Turks who do not want to live with Kurds and who oppose to Kurdification nowadays. For instance, Kurds are not much welcomed anymore in east black sea region... 

The problem is that they do not want to be called Turk or Turkish citizen except they did something bad

 Such a good friend she has

I don´t have the source for it but I remember reading Batman has the highest young women suicide rates in the world. Of course how many of those are real suicides and how many are forced suicides/honor killings, God knows.

 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/world/europe/16turkey.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

I read this a while ago it was published in 2006.  My boyfriend is from Batman so I tried to learn as much about the place as possible.  Trudy also put up this link in another thread, http://www.channel4.com/programmes/unreported-world/episode-guide/series-2009/episode-3

I think this is the same one I watched a few months ago, couldn´t bring myself to watch it again to check, if it is, Batman is also featured.  They mention that Batman has been nicknamed suicide city because of the unbelievably high rates of ´suicide´ among young women/girls

Thanks for the links.  I am all to aware of what happens to young girls and even older ones.  Its extremely disturbing and should be outlawed.  More exposure is needed and safe places for these women to go.  I will visit the east this year for 3 weeks.  I will be with others; thankfully.  If I saw this going on I would/could not ignore it!  I can see me now sneaking into the room where a girl maybe at risk and stealing her away to safety!  I hope and pray for a better life for these girls/women.

I agree, this is a very disturbing reading. But this is how it is. I guess the feeling of being the first gives men satisfaction. And I do not want to generalize here. Not all men are like that. I am originally coming from a culture where virginity is a MUST for a girl. You would think in 21st century something should have changed. But it hasn´t. And it is not certain when it will change IF it will change at all.

I am only concerned for those women/girls that are at risk due to not having any support from anyone. They seem defenceless. I am even more worried when I hear family members; including mothers, ignoring this or denying when questioned that they knew what was going on after their child is murdered.

I do not wish to offend those who are not like this.  I believe this happens all over the world.  I welcome more documentaries, news reports and women coming forward.  I would support them no matter what!

When those oppressed girls grow up they give birth to and bring up people who keep opressing their own daughters. Nothing will change. My advice for our compassionate forumers is that they should divert their love and caring to some useful cause. Such as animals in poor condition, who are completely innocent and have no fault in the condition that they are in.

 Do you know where to find a version of this with English subtitles?  Ive watched a bit in Turkish, and I can understand whats going on just by watching, but id like to know whats been said aswell!

And yes I agree, these girls are, most of the time, left to fend for themselves, some lucky ones manage to runaway, but face a life hiding in safe houses! There are some organisations there to help these girls, but I wish more could be done!

if children are just replica of parents - how do changes happen in this world?!?!

whom are you helping? whom have you helped already?

Good questions, raindrops!

The keywords here are "gradual" and "self induced". I don´t think grabbing all those girls from their families and placing them in special facilities will create a healthier society, which is the only instantenous solution I can think of. In these kinda topics people always miss one point; "Töre" is a cultural, even national identity for those people. They cherish it, they don´t want you to meddle, intervention creates even more grief. They will have to grow out of it, gradually. I know you people are upset and concerned but do not lose your sleep over it, there is not much you can do. It will still be rampant by the end of your lifespan, I´m afraid.

Look, it´s not okay to hurt girls because they are not virgins...

BUT... In most religions, they say you should stay a virgin until you are married. If religion is important for you, and you want to follow your religion strictly, as a girl you also want to stay a virgin. And as a boy you should also want to stay a virgin and only marry a virgin. This is not a Eastern Turkish thing, it happens in, for example, the U.S. to with Christian kids even wearing rings to show that they want to stay virgins (look at the jonas brothers )

There´s nothing wrong with wanting to marry a virgin, if you are very religious. The problems arise in the hypocritic ideas that boys can mess around while the girls should stay virgins. They arise with downgrading an entire girl by taking the virginity thing out of context, and making it a "don´t talk to boys" thing. And the BIG problem arises when people think they can enforce their hypocrit ideas with force.

This makes it difficult to deal with this problem. Because, often people start to say things like "is being a virgin really that important" and the answer to that in some cases is YES, it is. The focus seems to divert, and it seems to become some ideological agruement between "Forced virginity" vs. "12-year old de-flowering". The key is to point out how wrong it is to hurt girls or limit their freedom of own choice in life.

It will never change with this kind of attitude.  I care for humans and animals but will not stop caring about those who are also defenceless through no fault of their own.  I believe this will become less of a problem in the future through education programmes etc.  Also if no one cared for you in a situation you could not control and were facing death; would you not want someone to help you out??

I bought the film on the internet. I googled it and eventually found it.  It was with english subtitles.  Another film you might like is ´O Cocuklari´.  You can u tube this. Type it in and then put ´with english subtitles´

you need to ask for help. this should be spelled out by those who need the help, or it will be just some foggy wish. people should realize what kind of help they need, and in what, from whom etc.

what can we do now? live different, show this difference for others, if it worth to be followed, when others are ready to live the same - they will, and then quantity turns to quality

This is a very complicated issue for people.

Community culture, law, religious rules, traditions and prejudices lead people.

For example “virginity” is definitely precondition for marriage according to Turkish traditional community culture.

It is definitely precondition in the Islamic culture, strict protestant or orthodox families and other communities.

Turkish culture does not ban marriages of men (virgin or otherwise) with non virgin ladies, so long as the ladies´ lives can qualify as honorable. Meaning of the term "honorable" do change from country to country, and Turks have their own standards, not open to be questioned by deep philosophers like our dear Trudy.

Concealed premarital sexual activities of all kinds are discouraged and especially young ladies presenting themselves as virgins, under false pretenses are frowned upon; yet a man is perfectly free to marry such a lady if he is aware and does not mind. Chastity is deemed to be a virtue for a young man out to get married as well, but can not be enforced as strongly for practical reasons. With or without experience, two healthy bodies and sound minds will know what to do in their first night together.

Similar rules apply in Islam. Let us not forget Prophet Muhammad´s choice in his first marriage was a perfectly honorable and elligible, yet previously married lady.

Of course any fraud perpetuated in a marriage contract invalidates the contract.  Paying for that deception with one´s life is too high a price IMHO. Then, one has to consider the fact that some of the ladies lives would be forfeit if lack of virginity were revealed....so it´s a conumdrum.

As for the virginity issue, it´s become a hideious tragedy of misunderstanding. While it is true all maidens do not bleed in the desired, or expected, manner, just what does medical science say is an appropriate amount of blood? The prospect of bleeding, and one´s blood amount being under scrutiny, is enough to put a real damper on any bride´s romantic bliss potential on their wedding night. 

Wouldn´t a trip to a doctor for verification be a better alternative? It seems there is a lot they can tell with an examination. Of course, that could open another can of worms also..(bribe potential?)

Some real education on the science of the issue seems very much in order. You know, a what´s what, where and how?

I agree with Alameda, it´s all about being honest. Each person may choose what qualities their partner should have. If virginity is important, there´s nothing wrong with wanting to marry a virgin. Some people want to marry somebody rich, some are looking for intelligence, what´s wrong with wanting to marry a virgin?

However, the issues already discussed - like is it really possible to check whether or not a woman is a virgin - can be a problem. I don´t think there´s a way to solve it otherwise than by trust. If a person trusts their partner, they´ll accept what s/he tells them. Is it possible to lie? Sure but then, you may lie and be lied to about everything, it´s impossible to have everything proven scientifically. That´s the best part and the greatest risk in relationships, you have to accept some things even if you´re not 100% sure they´re true. For example, how can you tell if your partner really loves you? They may act in a good manner, buy you flowers, compliment you but how do you know it´s love, not just respect and politeness? You assume some things and that´s it.

If a woman tells you she´s a virgin, you have no choice but believe her. If you don´t then it´s probably not the best spouse for you

let´s do some research here among women and men

who want to marry virgin (for whom this characteristic is vitally important) for men

and

who want to stay virgin till marriage(for whom this characteristic adds smth vitally important) for women

The dictionary meaning of the word virginity when used as an adjective is free of impurity or stain. Since the Latin root it is derived from "virgo"  mean young woman, it is not difficult to realize that it initially signified the state of transience into womanhood from maidenhood on marriage. All other connotations must be based on the assumption that a young woman is pure, free from sins etc and she loses this quality when she has has with a man.

Regardless of how lightly people seem to take this matter these days, virginity has become an iron clad norm in people´s minds hence it is used for describing other matters like extra virgin olive oil, virgin voyage etc. Virginity essentially signifies purity which is treasured by most and it arouses a well-known desire to possess it and to stain it.  In a way, it can be likened to branding animals.

It is not just some men who value virginity; some women are keen defenders of virginity too. Even today, maidenhood is used by women for creating a sex-appeal. Britney Spears promoted her albums by highlighting her virginity. Christians call Mother Mary as Virgin Mary or the Virgin. She is considered to be a symbol of chastity.

Therefore, if you believe in something, the concept of virginity usually comes complete within that belief system. It seems it would not be consistent to both believe and to denounce the importance given to virginity.

i happen to agrre with this. it takes a lot both of time and victim.

Raindrops - I´m sure you´d find more men keen on marrying virgins than women who want to stay virgins till their wedding day. I think it´s got something to do with the penis complex of men and fear of being compared to others. Also, it may be what Vineyards calls "branding."

Vineyards - virginity in the western culture gained commercial sense. If sex sells, then virginity will sell as well, just to a different target group.

I, personally, find it ridiculous to believe that virginity is something that should be offered only after legalised committment. Still, I strongly feel it´s important to choose your first partner right (as well as all others that may follow ).

Why only in western cultures? in all cultures nowadays it gained commercial sense bec there is no natural necessity to stay so.

and what is funny, that men want to marry virgin and have "whore" in bed next night ... marry virgin is cool. live with virgin is boring. and being virgin is not only ab physiology, but mental condition

I can always use myself as an example because I believe I remained a virgin (as a male of course) much longer than most girls. I was something like 24. I was raised in a setting where it was taught it would be cruel to sleep with girls before marriage.

Turkey was like an iron curtain country then. There was isolation from the world, from the other sex and from everything that could potentially give you pleasure. Still, I was a lot luckier than the generation before me. Today, young people are living in a country vastly different from the restrictive society of our childhood.

Of course, the town I lived in (Bursa) was and it still is much more conservative than Istanbul.

What I would teach my children is not that it´s important to stay a virgin until they´re married. I don´t want their hormones to influence their decision to get married

What I would teach them is to at least wait until they are adults. I think it´s crazy that some people use their virginity at 13, 14, 15 years old... When I think about how I was at that age, I was surely not capable of making adult decisions. The decision to have sex is one of those adult decisions. It can have so many consequences, when you are not careful. When you are young you tend to underestimate the dangers behind certain decisions (like having sex unprotected).

I will also teach them that it is smart to save that experience for somebody that you love. It´s not just a body-thing, but a heart- and mind-thing as well.

Being a virgin or not doesn´t say much about the person in my opinion. Not being a virgin doesn´t mean you have taken the decision to have sex lightly. For me, what I look for in a partner is not virgnity, but some brains behind the decisions they make, including the one to have sex or not.

nice intention ... think all parents or parents-to-be have the same.

but cildren at age 12-13-...-16 are sure they are already adults. they want to become adults (much later they will want to stay children as long as possible). they want to be as all others around (if friends smoke, they will likely do the same or at least try). with virginity - there wont be another try .

they are sure that this current love is true one and for the rest of the life. they will blame parents in all sins. besides that some of children have developed desires by that age. Probably "developed" society inputs there either. But it is rules of developing of certain body that belong to  certain kid. One can think of book only at age of 15 or max about kissing class-mate´s cheek. the other will have fully grown desires. And these desires will rule the person at that age because it hard to rule them even being much older.

children want to live here and now. age after 20 is age of old age. Children are maximalist, not philosophers.

i would make my children too busy to think of early loosing virginity, in wide sense, to widen horizon, to have big variety of interests, goals and dreams. and what a strange and quiet opposite feeling, when it comes to your own children ))))

And I would like to teach my son respect - both to himself and to other people. I´d like to make sure that when (not if) he decides to have sex, he´ll be well aware of all the risks it exposes him to: pregnancy, STDs, emotional distress etc. But the decision will ultimately be his, at the time when he wants it...

At the same time, I also planned that I wouldn´t give him sweets, would not let him watch tv or sleep with us. Yeah, right. People always have excellent ideas before they have children

what is wrong with sleeping with parents?

im so jealous of you!

Back in the day when people got married at a young age the concept of staying a virgin until being married was a much simpler task.  Not so long ago, it was not uncommon for women to get married between the age of 17 and 20.  Most women married older men who had already finished college and could offer a "good life" for their new bride.  My Mom, who is now 65, once told me that it was not uncommon for a girl in the 1950s to leave high school to get married.  It was not concidered taboo or something bad.  In fact, my mom was one of them.  She often talks about women who went to university to get their MRS. degree....which simply means they went to find a husband.  Once they did, they left school.  

The fact is, culture in the West has changed drastically in the last 50 years.  Our concept of what is acceptable and what is not has changed with it.  Today we would concider a girl leaving high school to be married at a disadvantage to her peers when a mere 60 years ago, this was concidered the cultural norm.  Anyway, I think the concept of staying a virgin until marriage now, is somewhat unrealistic.  Many women don´t get married until they are well into there 20s and 30s.  In many middle eastern cultures it is still normal to get married very early on in life, making virginity a much more realistic goal.  

I think little girls and boys at the age of 12, 13, 14...having sex is a totally different issue.    

I´m going to copy the things my mom did It led to me not losing my virginty at the age of 13, 14, 15, etc.  I already learned how babies were made at the age of 8, from an informative book. I learned what a condom was at the age of 10. It wasn´t intentional though. We were watching a comedy movie where a guy made a joke about a condom. So, I asked my mom what the joke was about Her face when I asked...priceless.

A lot of the girls that get married at virgins are way younger then I was when I lost my virginity. I know a lot of people think a person his an adult when they hit puberty, in the girls case get their first period. It´s simply a middle stage, your body is not full-grown yet, so I don´t think you should be using your body that way. Ofcourse as a parent you can only do so much, but at least you can try Even when I was legally an adult, and had a boyfriend for a year, who was very ready for it... I waited. I wasn´t ready yet, in my opinion. And I´m glad I waited as long as I did. And I´m also glad I didn´t wait until getting married

Personally, I think the decision to have sex or wait is very personal and different for everyone.  I am comfortable with my decisions and have no regrets.  My wish is that my children can say the same thing, not that they follow some crazy tradition of remaining a virgin until they are in the legal bonds of marriage! 

 Mmm, yeah, that´s the best. To have no regrets

So anyone virgin or not virgin, who wants to get closer with me?

yeah yeah I AM public SPAM

 Do you know what they do to public spams like you?

 ehmmmmm nope do you?

It is absolutely hormons that make sex so appealing. As a matter of fact, teenage is by and far the best age for sexual experience. As time goes by, it turns into a routine activity and when those hormones are no longer wildly secreted the thrill is gone.

 The only think I know about this is that they do BAD things  

What a sad sad post Teenage sex isn´t the best! At that point in time you are so ackward about your body, and you have no idea about what you like. You even get shy when you have to get some condoms from the local store. Let alone getting some sexy lingery or other things to enhance the experience.

Adult sex in a loving relationship is the best in my opinion. You start to discover what your partner likes, and become an expert in it If the thrill is gone after your teenage years, you´re REALLY doing something wrong.

i am sure you do not generalize... but talking about yourself here

just usual beriberi after winter ...

it will be over soon

 I think you´re doing something wrong!  Sex VASTLY improves with time and experience.

Maybe this is confused with the fact that men are supposedly at their sexual peak in their late teens whereas women are said to reach their sexual peak in their late 30´s/early 40s?

Then I better find me an 18 year old dudu quick!

 scaryyyyyyyyy

most of those 18 year ones I observe in my neighbourhood like like that one

 ptasek, please be a dear and let me know what neighborhood you live in.  I only want sophisicated dudus!  hahaha

 awwwww fussy one

found you that one in my stock

satisfied now?

 Nice work! Will you be providing your dating services to all of us ladies? 

 what is beriberi??

 it is a disease in which the body does not get enough thiamine-vitamin B

but I am sure raindrops is talking about obvious lack of  the other vitamin

only if you have enough financial sources otherwise no way

how can i for instance camouflage BM´s talkativeness,LIR´s booze extravagancy,your sophisticated taste,etc,etc ????

I´ll give you a laptop!  Can´t speak for the other ladies but I think you owe it to us to barter for goods especially when you apparently have such a huge stock of dudus!

 so kind of you but a bit of misunderstanding-FINANCIAL sources to cover all dudus" expenditure

Actually  in promotion only men in black at stock now

prewiev

 sorry double post..yeah Liz I think I also need a new laptop)))

 Oh!  I like the "fiercely moustached" one!  You can keep the blonde one...he looks like a giant baby! 

anyone else?)

Well, this experience thing must be more true for women.

 That´s debatable..it depends on who your partner is.And this helps as well!

Have you been hanging out with vinyards?    Sorry!  Couldn´t resist! 

Why do you think there are cougars in this world....it has nothing to do with maturity.  Yes, matter of fact I´m still waiting for vinyard to give me a tour of Turkey.  I wonder whatever happen with that plan.. 

THAT´S why Trudy is going Turkey! 

is really debatable ...

life must be hard on you if it does not improve with experience

 Obviously you missed my point.

 She has already sharpened her claws...

Eh?

No. I guess the problem is I am going through what they call a midlife crisis.

So am I at the ripe age of 32 I´ve always known there was more of  man in me (no pun intended) than woman

I am ten years older than you and women tend to have longer lives.

you are so easy to say so private things ...

 This is what I am.

It reminds me of a interview I heard with Dustin Hoffman some years ago.  He said; when he was a young man, all he could think about was sex.  In his mind were thoughts of how could he get the female into a sexual encounter with him. It didn´t even matter if he was really attracted to the female....now that he´s older it´s like having a monkey off his back, he could actually have a conversation and exchange ideas.

Males are also exploited in as much as they are expected to perform.....that can be a very daunting prospect.

I love cougars, and wonder why, and how is it that beautiful animal´s name has been applied to older women looking for younger lovers???

i know that not to much related wit this topic,but i want to say ´´a real woman who  can teach a man a woman moreeeeeeeee ten a sex object´´

So many ladies who consider virginity a burden, and yet no one seems to appreciate the genuine offer to help from Sui Generis !

Amazing !

 bro!!!!I am choking with laughter,rolling...you did not lose your claws !!!!

So that is how all those girls with holes in their brains come about....

I don´t know where you are trying to get at with this statement but I think you sound quite a bit sexist.

truth is not always based on partiality

This is a throughly sexist thread....Are you sure you are at the right place?

The opening message questions whether certain legal procedures are sexist or not. I don´t think it was meant as an open invitation to sexist contributions.

I have seen bashing of men who regard virginity as a quality many many times, it isn´t fun anymore. But something tells me this post may start off an interesting discussion. Let the flaming begin

yorum yok

 You are probably too young and read way too many novels about ideal love. What women nowadays want to live in a "harem´?

BLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

don´t drink anymore, at least not today human nature is 1 man and 1 woman, all that goes over amount 1, is cheating

I agree with vineyards

and not with lisa.

For a man to "own" several woman, was only necessary when women were kept dumb and could not make a living on their own, and could not take care of themselves. I´m in the lucky position that as a woman, I don´t need a man to buy me a house, and buy my food. I have an education, and I only need a man for love. I don´t think a man could ever give me the love I deserve if he also shares his love with other people. I deserve much more then being one of many.

I don´t think this has anything to do with virginity though. How does demanding more then being one of many, have anything to do with saving yourself for marriage? Actually, I think I have kept my virginity longer than the average in my homecountry, because of knowing what I wanted from a young age. From having a certain self-respect, and awareness of what I was worth. This is also the same force behind me never excepting a man who shares his love with many.

If you think marrying several women is what the Quran states, you can also check the exact conditions surrounding it. It states something about a man having to love every woman the same amount. I think this is never ever possible, thus objecting the whole idea of several wives all together.

By the way... in most religions a man should stay a virgin too. Sex is something shared in marriage, so why talking a bit more about male virginity?

Amber made me laugh Not because she wants to be married to a guy whos leeps with other women - if that´s her idea of a happy relationship then I can only wish her all the best. At the end of the day it´s about whatever floats your boat - 1 husband, 3 co-wives, a pitbull or celibacy...

What I found amusing is she believes it´s human nature. As far as I can remember, a long time ago, before a group of guys wanted to put societies into order by writing down the words of an imaginary upper being, the human race was about preventing extinction. Hence men had sex with every woman they wanted to. At the same time, women had sex with every man they wanted because both genders wanted to prolong their species.

I wonder where Amber got the idea that women are naturally monogamists while men aren´t The only trace of sense I can see in it is what BM said - in societies where women are not allowed to work and hence support themselves they have no choice but sell themselves for food and shelter.

I should have known you´d still be at the first question...Some of us have somewhat moved forth, if you dont mind !

Good posts DD and BM,who the heck nowadays thinks women have no equal sexual status with men.If we strive to egalitarian society why women have always to be at disadvantage position.Women are sexual beings as well as men,their sexuality has been hidden or feared for ages.Why the hell women are perceived to be submissive?Why the hell men think they are owners of the world?Tribal and pagan beliefs glorify women not men,Mayas-those nasty 2012 calendar inventors worshipped women as source of life and did not demonize women sexuality.

 We the women have the same right as men have despite religions that would love to keep us inferior in this aspect as well.Middle ages are bygone things!Nowadays women do not really need men to be full of feminity,independent or worthy.These are men who need women more!

On the other hand I strongly insist on the fact that both sexes are completing each other,give each other joy of living and are complementary,which is wonderful thing.We have somebody to love and care.))

 What are you talking about...I haven´t said a word about virginity in days! 

 lemon is taking part in this week font competition

 I heard they are adding this event to the Olympics in 2014...Olympic Fonting. Good luck lemonysnicket!

 Damn..and you too Lisy competing???How was in Vegas???

+1

  at least something with sense

I hope this clarifies my thoughts on being a virgin and my beliefs and a little on how I think it is should be qualified, yes

Below is a private message I sent to Yeru:

Yersu,

Thank you so very much for your nice words. Of course since the 19^th amendment passed in America woman want to have more rights and such and started to get them, but I feel strongly on having men controlling woman and having more control period. I think it’s sexy. I do not tell my family this. They are Latina and hate men. ;p

But what I was trying to say on the forums is that if you are the best and right girl for a certain man, than he would not want to be with other woman.

I tell this very nice Turkish boy to go date, to go touch, to go make love with other woman and I will be there for him when I arrive. This is so if he does this there is a better chance he will think if me. He says no he will never do that. But then again if he did, when we meet he will see me and I WILL be the best girl he has had and he will know this instead of wanting to ‘venture’ more. It is a win-win *wink* *wink*Allah promised me and gave me the heart of a woman, that will not be broken.

I didn’t post this information on the forum because I was quite embarrassed with myself with being so open, but as you know now they judged me to soon eh?

Gracias, Ambra

ps: What do you believe in? And do you have any knowledge on how Turkish woman are? What are you like? Thanks thanks

Ok, I typed a couple of lines commenting on the above but then I thought it´s not worth it so I´ll just continue laughing if you don´t mind

Dear Daydreamer,

I hope you are being nice. I am trying to be nice to you and share my beliefs and you are being very rude to what I think and laughing at it. So, please, tell me what you think then.  You are older woman, no? So please stop dis-respecting me  I came here to be happy and share my thoughts.

As you, an older lady, tell me your views on virginity and its qualifications.

Ambra

 DD are you older woman???

hey, why do you tease her? )

she really may think so. it is her natural right to feel, think. behave and so on as she is.

in some long-distance relations some women really may tell other part - go and find someone to "have a fun" while i m not there. maybe bec they feel guilty of being so far. maybe to show herself as free-minded person. maybe nature of relation is so that she feels disabled to have any rights on him. different reasons.

there are swingers at last.

maybe she will change after several times when she arrives and boy wont find her the best ...

maybe she will find that one that will find her the best without trying greener grass, as in other case she will have to face those trials for the rest of her life...

but in any case smth tell me that if Amber stays here long enough we will know the end of the story )

dont take it as disrespect.

consider it as inner aversion of views, but not you

some sceptical smile ...

Dear Ambra,

Yes, I am an old lady with grey beard, a few wards and rough skin on my heels. If you want to know I´ll gladly tell you what I found hilarious about your post. First of all, I think you´re just trolling. I mean, you joined this site just to throw in a controversial/ridiculous statement and watch other people take you seriously And I think I´m too old to believe any woman would have so little self respect that she´d be ok with what you´re saying. Oh, did I mention that I think you´re Tami?

edit:

As for my views about virginity, I belive you should lose it if you want to and not lose it if you don´t. It´s as simple as that

Tami??? ohhh again old team

Sure, assuming she´s real, she has all the right in the world to let her partner cheat on her. Like i said, some want 3 co-wives, others have sex with goats. It´s not what made me laugh. I was amused by the naivety of the statement that she will let her bf or her prospective husband do whatever he wants but at the same time she believes he won´t do it It basically means, she doesn´t WANT him to do it but feels so inferior to him that she wouldn´t stop him from doing something she´s not ok with. I might be old fashioned but the girl is asking for trouble. Home violence hardly ever happens to women who are clear about the limits...

hm.. if she is real - nice observation

if she is real - it is her life. and she seems insisting on her own logic.  and she wont accept anything different, at least bec of stubbornness

good luck! life is great teacher ... no matter what we say - all for nothing

if she is real

Silly! I am real! I am young and sadly dumb (as you know!) And I AM open to your ideas. Please help me with these questions:

#1.) This forum implies virginity as a ‘qualification’? Please someone explain this to me. This is in Turkey?

#2.) Turkish Males ‘insist’ on having a virgin girl but do not ‘require’ it so?

#3.) I have told my love that he ‘may’ do what he wishes. Have I not ruined a beautiful relationship already?

#4.) I am young. Turkish boys as do anyone can clearly see this so is it bad to continue a relationship with Turkish boy. NOTE: ‘Boy’ not ‘Man’. Maturity difference maybe?

Thank you All! J Ambra PLEASE I NEED help!!!!

Considering the demographics of TLC, I can´t say I am surprised at the path this thread has taken But come on people, give her a break. First of all she is very young, you may not care but the editing shows that: 1)she is real 2)she is under considerable amount of peer pressure here.

I appreciate hearing Unorthodox thoughts once in a while. It was a fresh breeze ampngst the other few zillion posts with more or less the gist "Them backwards easterners did it again".

 I wouldn´t be surprized if she turns out to be one of the bored citizens of our old Turkia.

 Great minds think alike

if she is real - then i bet she is blonde coz this thinking is soooooo blonde

  i hate now my hair colour

You could dye your hair and become ´artificial intelligent´.....

yeah and i spent so much time and money (and i still am spending time and money every month - for refreshments ) to become blonde  just wanted to balance inner me with outer looks 

 I think it is the opposite. It is very hard to be monogamous.

If somebody comes from the Latin environment submissivness is deeply grass rooted in mind and life attitude. It is a really "macho"oriented society where a man is  a bread winner and a woman should know her place. Religion also plays an important role in this background.Unfortunately,double religious and social standards exist.One for a man,being able to do what he wants and the other for a woman who should be a saint not a wh*****.Definition of a saint is ambiguos though.The cult of Maria makes a Latin woman be submissive to man´s will.

It reflects many societies,don´t you think?

 This is Gumbet? and where your boyfriend works?

 yakamozzz,would you please stop spreading existing stereotypes!It is  obvious sexism  aimed at another woman,when a woman repeats such cliches.

maybe i´m too blonde, but i don´t understand it...  HOW can it be hard?  i never had any problems with that 

where are you living? don´t you know that usually for people "blonde = stupid"?  it´s not my invention at all 

 Problems with reading comprehension,yakamozz?I did not say it is your invention I only ask you to stop spreading nonsensical views

thank you

Ok probably this will be a weird post but anyway:

I have a stromfronter/white nationalist friend of mine who argues that the "blond stereotype" is a ZOG creation for demeaning white people. She says on, the contrary blondes have higher average iq, examples being Sharon Stone and Madonna(is she even real blonde?). Anyway; just wanted to share this point of view since the topic seemed kinda relevant

no that was just an example of being "blonde = stupid" you know why i am (ok, fake, but still) blonde, too? coz that way i have every right to be stupid sometimes, and nobody is even thinking about blaming me for that

...  Madonna...and iq...in the same sentence...? 

 Yakamozzz will stop it when Yılgün will stop making lists 

...please...no-one hold your breath....

oh, boy! of course i do agree with you. she is brilliant!  if i were only a man i would marry her.

God, make me a man!

DD, shut up please!

yes, she is 1000 times smarter and cleverer than you and me. she is the best business woman i have ever seen.

...freedom of opinions ... 

dont ask God.

ask medical doctor

I would tell a guy "do what you want" for sure... but if he then goes out and messes around with other women, then THAT is what he wants, and he clearly does NOT want a woman like me. I demand some mutual respect, and giving your body (as a male or female) to just any random Jane or Joe is not respectfull if you are in a relationship already.

Well, many others have jumped into this...so here is my take.....are you out of your mind to allow, in fact condone your boyfriend´s potential risky sexual behaviour?  Would you be willing to share your body with him after he has shared his with, who knows who?.........and picked up, who knows what?..........that could be passed on to your potential children? Would that be fair to them?

Monogamous married women have one of the highest incidence of HIV infection....how where do you think they get that?............from husbands who fool around...that´s who.

Think about this....and do some research. 

+++++++++   

..............................I think let her make her own mistakes in life I am sure she will find a forum that will give her the touchy-feely-huggy good stuff to tell her that it is not her fault for being so asinine in the first place

First I would like to apologize to those for my blindness. Blimey my words were a bit dynamic. All’s well now! My hormones are running me more than I’d like them to! Meaning my heart (or maybe it’s my vagina?) feels a love so strong that it makes young woman such as myself vulnerable to the temptations that men ungodly have. God bless men You have recently witnessed virtually my hormones speaking, not Amber, the maturing young adult! Bloody Hell I wish I didn’t speak so much rubbish!   

at least it was a good anecdote, thanks for that 

Men with high intellectual level tend towards more faithlessness (due to London Economics School).

polygamy let us to save genetic particular qualities in the process of establishment. nowadays there is no need in this.

at the same time there is no the same connection between intellectual level of women and their faithlessness

So you are saying the smarter that a man is, the more likley he will cheat?????!

Great......I am with a pretty smart Turkish lad...

quien ha dicho????

Calladita se ve mas bonita

aaa

me recuerdo una cosa.........besitooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

OK, I know I´m a little late with this (just catching up now), but hey ... what´s wrong with the cougars??? 

Suppose I missed that one by teaschip.

She asks about whatever happened with a plan popped up in my mind ages ago. One night filled with a yearning for those old university years when people would go on vacations in large groups, this thought popped in my mind: a journey to Cappadocia with friends from Turkish Class.

I believe I am more of a dreamer than Daydreamer. I tend to forget basic facts when dealing with people hence, I am prone to be misunderstood. The result this time: cougar food.

haha ... I am one of those ´cougars´ (albeit it was purely innocent and unknowing ).  I did however go on to marry my ´cougar food´. 

It would be kinda neat to meet the people I have ´met´ on this site though ... anyone around Bodrum this June? 

no, sorry, my mistake . just vice versa. clever men dont tend to have lovers.

sorry for confusion.

 Turkish men have been changed, and still changing.No matter women have documents about virginity, it doesnt mean she is virgin.Eventough she has proof with that document, she might have small surgery just before wedding..Turkish men do not believe to virginity anymore..They dont believe so quickly  if woman says´´ I am virgin´´... if all women are virgin in Turkey with who men have sex ? dont worry, men are enough smart..