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I lost my belief in Dutch society
(57 Messages in 6 pages - View all)
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10.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 30 May 2006 Tue 11:34 pm

Quoting ziska:

really it s soooo sad where is going this world!But i am not surprised at all!If it s normal marriage between same sex why you are surprised with this!



I think marriage between the same sexe is totally acceptable. It's against nature, human body is (probably?, we never know for sure, do we) designed to be with the other gender. But this doesn't mean one should not be able to marry the same gender. I don't think it's natural, I do think it's normal in some way.

11.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 30 May 2006 Tue 11:48 pm

Quoting ramayan:

horrid,gruesome,consummate perversion..

children will be pushed in sex even without knowledge of the real meaning of the word ''sex''



Yes. The point is, they won't be pushed literally. I'm pretty sure this won't réally lead strongly to child-abuse. I can't look into future, but this is not my first concern. My first concern is the fact that when limits are expanded in such a way, needs expand and new limits are developed.. to be again enlarged in the future? Maybe a child in a normal family, being cared and taken care of won't be the victim of it directly. But 'sex' will get a different dimension and will become more easily part of young children. Obviously we all have been 12 and we all knew what sex was that time and we all giggled at the word masturbation. But exáctly that fact, shows how childrne itself think of sex. By changing that law (believe me, that won't pull through, but just the idéa that people exist who want it and that those people actually can get into politics ), anyway, by changing that law, sex will 'enter' the lives of younger children faster. Already now many 14 years old have sex in Holland in some social groups. This will only lower if such ideas start to live in a society.

My second concern is the so-called tollerance of Holland and our famous (notorious?) freedom of speech. If i think of what tollerance in Holland is, it has become not the 'acceptance of the different things different people do', but 'suppressing the feeling you are annoyign by someone else's being different'. It changed here. But tollerance and how high we think freedom of speech is, has made that 20% of Dutch society already said that this party should be allowed to exist. Because, we have freedom of speech. But it's the freedom of speech, that has stopped debates/discussions in Holland. Because after all: we have freedom of speech and we're oh so tolerant. Why discuss? The other has the right to like childporn anyway! So I mean, i could go all crazy about it, and try to convince him why he is wrong, but why would i? I'm a tollerating person. And in the Dutch sense of the word it means: I will suppress the fact I feel highly annoyed by people who want childporn to become acceptable, and i do this all in the name of tollerance and freedom of speech, but i actually ain't got a clue what that means!

12.       AlphaF
5677 posts
 31 May 2006 Wed 02:13 am

Regarding this subject in a very broad sense, I advised Deli_kızın (in private) to look up,
Jacob Frank
Frankists
on the net; trying to understand who they are and what they are after.

Later, I thought any interested classmate should be invited to the same quest.

13.       Aenigma
0 posts
 31 May 2006 Wed 08:42 am

14.       mltm
3690 posts
 31 May 2006 Wed 12:01 pm

It sounds pretty horrible and immoral with our existing moral values, but as countries become freer, the limits are being broadened, and the moral values become more flexible. We don't know in the next century, what kind of moral values are waiting for us.
The idea of freedom is this if you don't hurt anyone and you don't force them, you should have the right to do whatever you want. It sounds logical but the children are always children. We should always protect them, I am sure the majority of the Dutch society think like this as well. You said 82% are against it, and this ratio is quite high. I don't know what it means when this party becomes legal. What kind of actions do they plan to do?

And what's freewill? It's such a relative thing. Can you talk about the freewill of a child having sex with her father? I know it's very sick but freewill is such a thing.
By making it legal, government will contradict with itself because our first reason to go to school is to get a profession and therefore earn our lives but while the government gives education at schools, it says you can do porn as well. And wouldn't this confuse the children? Knowing that they all have the needed qualities for earning their lives by sex, by a much easier and funny thing!

Apart from this, childporn and slavery of women are so so wide all over the world, and mostly in the most undevelopped countries. Can we stop it with anything while there's poverty?
We heard that the aid teams do sex with young girls and woman in Africa, and why do these girls do sex? For food, just for food. This is also freewill, isn't it? And they're the men that have come to help them. We know that so many women from old soviet countries come to other countries to earn something but end up becoming a whore or a sex slave.
I know this is not the case in Holland, but while all these are going on the world to establish a party who defends childporn is so so sad. While most of the reason of it is poverty making it also a moral thing is so sad.Yes, there're people of a lot of different ideas and beliefs and some of them are very sick, but a government's first duty should be to make healty adults and therefore to protect children.

15.       Aenigma
0 posts
 31 May 2006 Wed 01:04 pm

16.       mltm
3690 posts
 31 May 2006 Wed 01:36 pm

Quoting Aenigma:



Sorry Mltm, but I totally disagree with you. Freedom does not bring with it a loss in moral values.

The reason this group can apply to become a political party is because this country allows EVERYONE freedom to speak their opinions. It does not, however, allow them to do as they wish. If this party becomes legal, they will not be able to change laws or do as they please. In fact, all they will do is highlight themselves to authorities and make it easier for police to identify them and prosecute them.

Why are you so scared of freedom of speech? As I said before, these things need to be discussed and not buried. If they are buried and people pretend they do not exist, it will continue unpunished.



But isn't it weird to let everyone establish a party? If the ideas are illegal, then what is the sense of a party? Isn't our aim is stopping childporn, does everyone agree, do all the laws say this? and what's the aim of a party? To get more supporters, to spread its idea. So while trying to destroy something, giving someone the right to improve it is considered freedom of speech? Then, why do we close terrorist parties?
I don't consider this as a part of freedom of speech, I consider this as an encouragement to crime.

17.       Aenigma
0 posts
 31 May 2006 Wed 01:53 pm

18.       kazpol
99 posts
 31 May 2006 Wed 02:01 pm

aenigma, u r so right! whatever u've said is right!
we all r free to say what we want to say, however crime will stay crime. it is so much important to talk about it! we should discuss over such problems in our countries. someone previously has alredy told in 'the old good times' it existed and done in silence in families, we should stop it!
such party isnt a danger itself, coz normal parents wouldnt let their children get harmed thus they wouldnt let the law changed for the support of those parties.

mltm, terrorists r also free to tell their ideas, they actually exist(in most islamic countries) and do their job perfectly, though we dont want them.

most religious ppl hate holland (i know many ppl who curse holland), but i support this country, i dont want holland lose its freedom due to such evil ppl parties. i hope the party will fail reaching its goals.

its pointless to live at all without having freedom. HOLLAND, I SUPPORT U, PLS, DONT LET EVIL OVERCOME UR FREEDOM!

19.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 May 2006 Wed 03:03 pm

Well I have one of those days that i feel kinda numb and like i can't say anything that makes sense

I can identify both with Aenigma's and Meltems opinions.
But what i was trying to say is, freedom of speech is becoming so fake here. It is stopping the discussion in Holland, closing down the subjects that could be worth to be discussed. Like paedophilia. It will become the subject of the newspapers and political debates, but no sollution will be found. It's for sure that their ideas won't come through and won't be made as a law. A political party needs support and back-up. Im convinced there are not enough paedophiles (what a nice word actually for the disgusting meaning) to support and to make them get many votes. But what does scare me, that there are people like this in my country and that they can just make a political party, spreading their ideas, and not being ashamed of it!

I do like Holland for its freedom of speech. We can critize our country without someone getting angry with us. And when I vote, I'm sure it will be an honest vote and not a corrupt government. I'm happy that i could buy soft-drugs without getting arrested. Not because I intend to use it or ever did, but because it's good to see that it protects the prostitutes from robberies and has reduced the drug-crime.
I'm not against one-night-stands or loosing virginity to a stranger. It's just not something I would ever wish to be part of, but I'm not against it.
My insurrance company works well and when I'm ill i'm sure i can get good help in the hospital. I know that law and court will protect me if someone tries to harm me. Education is good here and the chance of finding a well-paid job would be high if i was to stay here.

Freedom of speech and a free country don't necessarily mean that morals become more loose. But by becoming free and enlaring the limits, there will become new limits and people will want to explore them, see if they can enlarge them. In a good, healthy society those limits will be approached, but set back if they see their country gets out of balance.
But the news lately tells me that, more and more people explore the limits and more and more go over them. They shock others, and they polarize the country.

Good people will have good morals, no matter where they live. I love Holland for its former good morals and values, I love it for its tiny and tidy houses and its simple people. I love it for the green forests and the bicycles. But i start to hate it for growing weak against its own people. It does not stand up and say: these are our universal morals of dignity and respect. It waits till a ridiculous politic party is set up. It waits till the airport gets on fire in the area of the refugees. And then even has the guts to send those traumatised people abck on the plane to where they came from. It nees a murder like Theo van Gogh to wake up.

The wine of freedom of speech has made Holland drunk. Dutch society needs to sober up.

20.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 May 2006 Wed 03:11 pm

Quoting Aenigma:


The reason this group can apply to become a political party is because this country allows EVERYONE freedom to speak their opinions. It does not, however, allow them to do as they wish. If this party becomes legal, they will not be able to change laws or do as they please. In fact, all they will do is highlight themselves to authorities and make it easier for police to identify them and prosecute them.

Why are you so scared of freedom of speech? As I said before, these things need to be discussed and not buried. If they are buried and people pretend they do not exist, it will continue unpunished.



I didn't look at it from this way. I think it's a very wise and good point of view indeed.

But i just have the nasty feeling that such a party could only be set up in Holland. I wonder if that is in favor of the word 'freedom'.

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