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Few Sentences-Covers multiple areas of grammar
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1.       Mavili
236 posts
 12 Jan 2012 Thu 06:25 am

This is where i wish we could have a record kept of previous posts, so that we can find them easily and add to them, sometimes instead of having to create a whole new topic.{#emotions_dlg.confused}

But these questions are from FSI student text pdf file. Which by the way has some good grammar lessons in it. Should anyone decide to review for me, don´t worry about the questions, I know they are written correctly. (unless you see they are incorrect) I was trying to answer them in Turkish so i included my answers in English for comparison. Thanks in advance.

 

Q.Bob’ın pasaportunu gümrük memuru niçin  istemişti?

A.Travelers at the Customs Department must possess a passport. 
Yolcuları gümrük ve tekel bakanlığında pasaportu sahip olmalılar.

Q.Bob beyanname doldurmuş muydu?-  
A.Yes, his manifesto was ready.
Evet. begannamesi hazır edildi.

Q. Beyannamede neler yazılıydı?
A. How much money Bob had, was written on the manifesto.
Ne kadar para beyannamede Bob sahip olduğunu yazılı edildi.

Q. Bob’ın üstünde hiç parası yok muydu?
A. Bob has 500 Turkish Lira and 25 American dollars.
Bob üstünde 500 Türk lirasıyle ve 25 ABD dolar sahip olduğu

2.       aysell
1 posts
 21 Feb 2012 Tue 10:17 pm

Hi,

it s more common, yazmış olduğunda doğru sayılır;

Q.Bob’ın pasaportunu gümrük memuru niçin  istemişti?

Bod 500 Türk lirası ve 25 American dolarına sahip.

 

görüşmek üzere..

A.Travelers at the Customs Department must possess a passport. 
Yolcuları gümrük ve tekel bakanlığında pasaportu sahip olmalılar.
Gümrük bölümündeki müşteriler bir pasaporta sahip olmalılar.

Q.Bob beyanname doldurmuş muydu?-  
A.Yes, his manifesto was ready.
Evet. begannamesi hazır edildi.
evet.beyannemesi hazırdı.

Q. Beyannamede neler yazılıydı?
A. How much money Bob had, was written on the manifesto.
Ne kadar para beyannamede Bob sahip olduğunu yazılı edildi.

Bob´un sahip olduğu ne kadar para beyannamede yazılmıştı.

Q. Bob’ın üstünde hiç parası yok muydu?
A. Bob has 500 Turkish Lira and 25 American dollars.
Bob üstünde 500 Türk lirasıyle ve 25 ABD dolar sahip olduğu

3.       MarioninTurkey
6124 posts
 23 Feb 2012 Thu 01:03 pm

 

Quoting aysell

 

Q. Bob’ın üstünde hiç parası yok muydu?

A. Bob has 500 Turkish Lira and 25 American dollars.
Bob üstünde 500 Türk lirasıyle ve 25 ABD dolar sahip olduğu

 

 with üstünde, surely we only need var (not sahip olduğu)

also -ile and ve say the same thing, don´t we only need one of them?

Bob´un üstünde 500 Türk lirasıyla 25 ABD doları vardı

4.       Mavili
236 posts
 05 Apr 2012 Thu 04:54 am

Onu gördüğüm, o güzel bir kadınla ki, bir mavi elbise giyindiği -When I saw him, he was with a lovely woman wearing a blue dress.

 

Ayşe ki, ilaç uç yıldır okuyuyor, gelecek yıl yeni klinikte çalışacak. -Ayşe, who has been studying medicine for three years, will work at the new clinic next year.

 

Onlar çıktılar, biz epey üzüntülü olduğunuz. -When they left, we were quite sad.

 

O yüzüde kar eriyediği, solgun bir yüz çıktı. -When the snow on his face melted, a pale face emerged.*

 

Müzeyi kapatmadan ziyaret ettik. -We visited the museum before it closed.

 

 

Köprüden dolayı şehriyle tamır etmedi, onu yıkıldı. -Because the bridge wasn´t repaired by the city, it collapsed.

 

 

*story by Sait Faik Abasıyanık

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5.       tunci
7149 posts
 06 Apr 2012 Fri 12:30 am

 

Onu gördüğüm, o güzel bir kadınla ki, bir mavi elbise giyindiği -When I saw him, he was with a lovely woman wearing a blue dress.

When I saw him  ---> Onu gördüğümde

he was with a lovely woman wearing a blue dress.---> mavi elbise giyen hoş bir bayanla beraberdi.         OR

mavi elbise giyen hoş bir bayanlaydı.

mavi elbise giymiş hoş bir bayanla beraberdi.   OR

mavi elbiseli hoş bir bayanla beraberdi.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

colloquially that sentence would be said as follows ;

Onu gördüğümde mavi elbiseli hoş bir bayanla beraberdi. 

 

 



Edited (4/6/2012) by tunci

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6.       tunci
7149 posts
 06 Apr 2012 Fri 12:45 am

 

Ayşe ki, ilaç uç yıldır okuyuyor, gelecek yıl yeni klinikte çalışacak. -Ayşe, who has been studying medicine for three years, will work at the new clinic next year.

- Take the subordinate clause first which is ; üç yıldır tıp okuyan [1]

- then attach the subject onto it ; Ayşe [2]

- and finally the main clause which is ; gelecek yıl yeni bir klinikte çalışacak. [3]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Üç yıldır tıp okuyan Ayşe gelecek yıl yeni bir klinikte çalışacak. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another example ;

Turkish, which is an easy language to learn, is getting popular in the world.

[ 2  ] [                   1                                    ]    [              3                       ]

Öğrenilmesi kolay bir dil olan Türkçe , dünyada popülerleşiyor [yaygınlaşıyor].

  subordinate clause           Subject      Main clause



Edited (4/6/2012) by tunci

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7.       tunci
7149 posts
 06 Apr 2012 Fri 01:36 am

 

Onlar çıktılar, biz epey üzüntülü olduğunuz. -When they left, we were quite sad.

In compound sentences with "when" ;

1. Subordinate  clause--> Git + dik  [subordinating suffix] + leri  [person] + n  [ buffer] + de [when]

2. Main clause --> oldukça üzgün + dü + k [ we were quite sad ]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Onlar] Gittiklerinde oldukça üzgündük.


 

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8.       tunci
7149 posts
 06 Apr 2012 Fri 01:43 am

 

O yüzüde kar eriyediği, solgun bir yüz çıktı. -When the snow on his face melted, a pale face emerged.*

the snow on his face ---> Yüzündeki kar

when melted --> eridiğinde

a pale face emerged.* -->  solgun bir yüz ortaya çıktı.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Yüzündeki kar eridiğinde , solgun bir yüz ortaya çıktı.

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9.       tunci
7149 posts
 06 Apr 2012 Fri 01:47 am

 

Müzeyi kapanmadan ziyaret ettik. -We visited the museum before it closed.

 

 

 

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10.       tunci
7149 posts
 06 Apr 2012 Fri 02:07 am

 

Köprüden dolayı şehriyle tamır etmedi, onu yıkıldı. -Because the bridge wasn´t repaired by the city, it collapsed.

Köprü, şehir tarafından onarılmadığından [dolayı] yıkıldı.[çöktü]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"-dan dolayı " form is referring more like ending with "negative" results

example ;

Çok kitap okuduğundan [dolayı] gözleri bozuldu --> Because he read alot of books, his eyes gone wrong. [his eyes weakened  ]

 

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11.       Mavili
236 posts
 08 Apr 2012 Sun 06:49 am

I have seen your corrections, and appreciate them always Smile, I have just been busy at the end of the last weeks between my job and classwork. But I am almost finished with these classes, and next term I hope to have more spare time to come here.

Quoting tunci

 

Müzeyi kapanmadan ziyaret ettik. -We visited the museum before it closed.

 

 

 

Hmm I had thought if we were using visited, in past tense, you´d just add -madan to kapat and that past tense is implied through ziyaret ettik Well, at least i had not thought the passive for kapat. Though I closed is also past tense. hmm so I suppose its like saying "We visited the museum, before (it was closed(by them)) ?

 

12.       tunci
7149 posts
 08 Apr 2012 Sun 08:44 pm

 

Quoting Mavili

I have seen your corrections, and appreciate them always Smile, I have just been busy at the end of the last weeks between my job and classwork. But I am almost finished with these classes, and next term I hope to have more spare time to come here.

Hmm I had thought if we were using visited, in past tense, you´d just add -madan to kapat and that past tense is implied through ziyaret ettik Well, at least i had not thought the passive for kapat. Though I closed is also past tense. hmm so I suppose its like saying "We visited the museum, before (it was closed(by them)) ?

 

 

Exactly.

 

13.       Mavili
236 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 04:07 am

 

Quoting tunci

 

O yüzüde kar eriyediği, solgun bir yüz çıktı. -When the snow on his face melted, a pale face emerged.*

the snow on his face ---> Yüzündeki kar

when melted --> eridiğinde

a pale face emerged.* -->  solgun bir yüz ortaya çıktı.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Yüzündeki kar eridiğinde , solgun bir yüz ortaya çıktı.

Gittiklerinde oldukça üzgündük

It starts with the subordinate clause correct? And I think I see the difference but I want to make sure. 

Yüzündeki kar eridiğinde , solgun bir yüz ortaya çıktı.

eridiğinde (when it melted) is the subordinate clause, correct? But does not start the sentence because there is the expression of place (yüzündeki) which comes before in the standard order? and everything after -eridiğinde is the main clause?

14.       Abla
3648 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 09:21 am

Quote:Mavili

Yüzündeki kar eridiğinde , solgun bir yüz ortaya çıktı.

eridiğinde (when it melted) is the subordinate clause, correct?

 

 

Yüzündeki kar eridiğinde is the embedded subordinate clause. It has a subject part (yüzündeki kar ´the snow on his face´ ) and a predicate part (eridiğinde ´when it melts´ ) like it would have if it was an independent clause. An embedded clause is a constituent of the main clause, in this case it answers the question ´when´:

 

              solgun bir yüz ortaya çıktı ´a pale face came in sight´, WHEN?

              - kışın

              - sabah saat yedide

              - yüzündeki kar eridiğinde.....

 

It´s like any adverbial of time, it´s just happens to be a whole sentence.

 

In order to understand the syntax don´t look at single words only but try to find the phrases.



Edited (4/11/2012) by Abla

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15.       Mavili
236 posts
 11 Apr 2012 Wed 03:15 pm

Okay, now I see, thanks Abla. 

16.       Mavili
236 posts
 21 Apr 2012 Sat 07:46 pm

 

Quoting tunci

 

Üç yıldır tıp okuyan Ayşe gelecek yıl yeni bir klinikte çalışacak. 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another example ;

Turkish, which is an easy language to learn, is getting popular in the world.

Öğrenilmesi kolay bir dil olan Türkçe , dünyada popülerleşiyor [yaygınlaşıyor].

  subordinate clause           Subject      Main clause

"Üç yıldır tıp okuyan Ayşe"  Is this the same construction as Lewis´ ´başıbozuk´ construction? Where it becomes an adjectival phrase, with the verb in present participle. (okuyan)

and i presume its the same in your next example where "olan" is the present participle verb when öğrenilmesi became a noun?

Was reading a bit of the book last night and read about adjectival phrases and remembered your example. Do you have any insight into this construction? How does it differ from the use of -dik in sentences like the previous:

Onu gördüğümde mavi elbise giyen hoş bir bayanla beraberdi -when I saw him, he was with a lovely woman wearing a blue dress.

17.       tunci
7149 posts
 21 Apr 2012 Sat 10:23 pm

 

 

Quoting Mavili

 

"Üç yıldır tıp okuyan Ayşe"  Is this the same construction as Lewis´ ´başıbozuk´ construction? Where it becomes an adjectival phrase, with the verb in present participle. (okuyan)

and i presume its the same in your next example where "olan" is the present participle verb when öğrenilmesi became a noun?

Was reading a bit of the book last night and read about adjectival phrases and remembered your example. Do you have any insight into this construction? How does it differ from the use of -dik in sentences like the previous:

Onu gördüğümde mavi elbise giyen hoş bir bayanla beraberdi -when I saw him, he was with a lovely woman wearing a blue dress.

 

I never heard of ´başıbozuk´ term in Turkish grammar.

In the fırst example the subordinate clause ´...olan ´ modified the noun ´Ayşe´.

In the second example the subordinate clause "...giyen" modified the noun ´hoş bir bayan´

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

likewise;

In the sentence "öğrenilmesi kolay olan " modified the noun  "Türkçe´    

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Onu gördüğümde and others that ends with time gerund "-dIkInda " are adverbial clauses. Since they refer the specific time of the action that has taken [going to take] place.




Edited (4/21/2012) by tunci

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18.       Abla
3648 posts
 21 Apr 2012 Sat 10:37 pm

Lewis uses the term başıbozuk for structures like

 

            başı bozuk adam (< adamın başı bozuk)

            kızı hukuk okuyan adam (< adamın kızı hukuk okuyor)

 

There is always a possessive construction in the embedded sentence. They are equivalents to certain kinds of English relative clauses (starting with whose).

 

Sometimes the present participle of olmak is needed in the construction:

 

             evi büyük olan bir arkadaşım (< arkadaşımın evi büyük)

 

I can´t answer Mavili´s question though. I just happened to read the book.

 

 

19.       tunci
7149 posts
 21 Apr 2012 Sat 10:47 pm

 

Quoting Abla

Lewis uses the term başıbozuk for structures like

 

            başı bozuk adam (< adamın başı bozuk)

            kızı hukuk okuyan adam (< adamın kızı hukuk okuyor)

 

There is always a possessive construction in the embedded sentence. They are equivalents to certain kinds of English relative clauses (starting with whose).

 

Sometimes the present participle of olmak is needed in the construction:

 

             evi büyük olan bir arkadaşım (< arkadaşımın evi büyük)

 

I can´t answer Mavili´s question though. I just happened to read the book.

 

 

 

So it is relative construction then. evi büyük olan bir arkadaşım [ A friend of mine whose house is big]

and relativizer is " -An" [whose]

20.       tunci
7149 posts
 21 Apr 2012 Sat 11:03 pm

 

-dIk is also used as "determining participle" [ Belirtme Ortacı]

Okuduğum kitap --> The book that I read  --> It determines the specific book. The book that I read.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we use -An,

Kitap okuyan adam --> The man who is reading a book

Kitap okuyan adama çay ver --> Give tea to the man who is reading a book.

Adamın okuduğu kitabı buraya getir --> Bring the book that the man is reading.[has read]

 

 



Edited (4/22/2012) by tunci

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21.       acute
202 posts
 22 Apr 2012 Sun 01:37 am

 

Quoting tunci

 

-dIk is also used as "determining participle" [ Belirtme Ortacı]

Okuduğum kitap --> The book that I read  --> It determines the specific book. The book that I read.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we use -An,

Kitap okuyan adam --> The man who is reading a book

Kitap okuyan adama çay ver --> Give tea to the man who is reading a book.

Adamın okuduğu kitabı buraya getir --> Bring the book that the man is reading.[has read]

 

 

sen kitabı hızlı okudun
kıtabı hızlı okudun
hızlı okudun

 

22.       metehan2001
501 posts
 22 Apr 2012 Sun 01:40 am

 

Quoting Abla

Lewis uses the term başıbozuk for structures like

 

            başı bozuk adam (< adamın başı bozuk)

            kızı hukuk okuyan adam (< adamın kızı hukuk okuyor)

 

There is always a possessive construction in the embedded sentence. They are equivalents to certain kinds of English relative clauses (starting with whose).

 

Sometimes the present participle of olmak is needed in the construction:

 

             evi büyük olan bir arkadaşım (< arkadaşımın evi büyük)

 

I can´t answer Mavili´s question though. I just happened to read the book.

 

 

 

Abla,

1. Let me correct a mistake:

As you know "adjective, adverb, noun, sentence, tense etc. are grammar terms, but "başıbozuk" is not a grammar term itself. It can be used as an adjective like in the example of "başıbozuk adam" or it can be a noun as you can see in this example: "Sokakta başıbozuklar dolaşıyor."

2. In Turkish, there are some suffix (-an/-en, -ası/-esi, -acak/-ecek, -dık/-dik, -maz/-mez, -mış/-miş, muş/-müş which can be added at end of the nouns and make them adjectives (participles). Then, we can use these participles just as we use adjectives. For example,

Gelen adamı tanıyor musun?

* Bu konuda konuşacak  insanlara ihtiyacımız var.

* Burada tanıdık kimseye rastlamadım.

In the above sentences, the bold written words have been used as adjectives. When we remove the nouns which have been described by these adjectives from the sentences, the adjectives become nouns and accept the suffixes which have come after the nouns. Examples:

Geleni tanıyor musun?

* Bu konuda konuşacaklara ihtiyacımız var.

* Burada tanıdığa rastlamadım.

23.       Abla
3648 posts
 22 Apr 2012 Sun 09:00 am

metehan2001, thank you for the reminder. I didn´t give the name to this structure. I just added what the author ment by başıbozuk because the questioner mentioned it. That´s because the same book is right here under my table...

 

In my humble opinion the term relative clause is inappropriate for Turkish syntax even though we often use it to reduce the gap between Turkish and English grammar. There is only one type of subclause in Turkish and that is if clause. The equivalents of all other English subclauses are participle and infinitive structures which sometimes represent nouns, sometimes adjectives and sometimes adverbials in the main clause. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

P.S. There is also a "Janus construction" in Turkish. Did you ever hear about it?

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