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....the problem is that...
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20. |
24 Dec 2012 Mon 08:48 am |
İkicihan, let me refresh your memory a bit:
First you said “sorun is made up,strange and rootless word” (nr 3) , secondly, after reading gokuyum´s post (nr 5) changed your opinion and said, “sor- root´s valid but the suffix is made up” (nr 6), thirdly, as you had no logical answer to my post (nr 11), you just said “it´s a long and old discussion” (nr 12), and finaly you said you were “stopping yourself not to start an endless discussion with an unknown person” (nr 15)
Your Turkish grammar is weak . Go and reread my post (nr 11) it will help you improving your grammar skills.
By the way, I knew from the first post of yours to the thread that your approach is political but not linguistic, and I tried to make it turn into a grammatical discussion thinking that maybe it would help the learners, and I hope it did.
Oh! and before I forget it.. you call me "unknown person." Do all you know each other personally and this is how you treat the new members?
i called you an unknown person because before i said this i took a quick look to your profile and got zero information, like where you are from, why you are here, etc. your nickname doesnt give me a clue, too. No offence...
Luckily TDK (Turkish language association) slowed down or stopped for the last 10-15 years mutating my language. But before that they caused great harm to my language. That is why i am so angry with them.
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For new foreign words, it is acceptable and recommended to produce Turkish equivalent words with a valid root and suffix. I support this process by TDK or by any expert.
I am strongly against to produce made-up roots and suffixes, and to produce new words with these roots and suffixes.
I am strongly against to change hundreds of years old words known by most people with newly produced ones. This process is purely language crime.
If a new foreign word came into my language, that is not a bad thing, it makes my language richer. You can offer Turkish equivalent words in the beginning but if you are too late, no need to change it. You can call "radio" as radyo, "television" as televizyon, no problem.
The worst of all, changing more than one thousand years old words with newly produced words. TDK did it with state force in the past by using education system.
There are thousands but here is only one example: "kelime" (word), arabic originated (from kalimah i think.) TDK trying to change it with "sözcük".
"Sözcük" is Turkish from the root and from the suffix. But why there is a need to change it? Will this process make Turkish more beautiful or more rich? or will this process cut ties with future and past and cause corruption and confusion? In the future, a student goes to library, take a book from a shelf and see the word "kelime" and thinks what it means??? This already happened for many words.
"kelime" is in my language for more than one thousand years. if we go far back of its origin we may end up in ancient hebrew, aramaic, arabic. that is absolutely not a rootless word. If you ask me if it is Turkish or not, i say it is Turkish regardless of its origin. and there is NO NEED to change it.
Edited (12/24/2012) by ikicihan
[missing part added]
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21. |
24 Dec 2012 Mon 09:43 am |
People who wish to use pure Turkish words should not be labelled as racist, language reformists should not force people to use new words , instead they should encourage people to use those words.
You are too polite tunci.
I agree Turks prefering use of words created from Turkish origin; whether such words later become a part of Turkish language is subject to degree of their acceptance by the general Turkish public. No one can be labelled a racist for trying to purify and uphold a national language; I am happy to observe there are no such idiots among this group.
How about people who has a hang up on words from other languages, especially Arabic and Farisi ? They should be free to follow their desires as well, until no one understands them. reads them or speaks to them.
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22. |
24 Dec 2012 Mon 11:04 am |
"Sözcük" is Turkish from the root and from the suffix. But why there is a need to change it?
We should also ask ourselves, why we gave up using "söz" which we had been using for centuries, and started to use "kelime".
In my opinion, loan words are something irresistable for a language. For sure it is true if the language is not spoken by a community who has no connection with the other people. Eventhough it is natural, it should have limits. That´s why it should be under control of the language planners. Unfortunately, i think TDK´s reaction for new words are really slow.
On the other hand, i don´t understand how come the words are described and insulted as "made up". All words are made up. Just most of them are based on the previous made up words and made up suffixes(or the rules depending on the language we talk about).
A language can be saved as long as it´s grammatical rules are preserved. If a word will be borrowed from another language, it should be adapted to the grammatical rules of the language. I think that´s the main and first point that we should care about.
Turkish is a rich language with it´s all dialects and it has powerful abilities to derive new words. If we have this chance, why shouldn´t we use it? ( I know there is no one who is against what i am talking about. )
I agree that it is an endless discussion. And discussion is a good thing if we can succeed not to do it to get the edge over someone but to reach the common sense.
Long live on every languages of the world. 
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23. |
24 Dec 2012 Mon 01:19 pm |
What exactly is your language ?
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24. |
24 Dec 2012 Mon 02:48 pm |
What exactly is your language ?
Of course turkish, all other languages are in foreign language category for me.
Anyway, let me add something for new produced words.
Acceptable, good ones:
Produced with a valid root and valid suffix, expressing true meaning of the suffix. I call these as produced words. As long as they are replaced with new foreign words, they are useful and recommended to use. Replacing them with (a few century) old common words is bad idea, destroys vocabulary.
Non acceptable, bad ones: Produced with a made-up root and/or made-up suffix; or produced with a valid root and suffix but expressing a made-up meaning of the suffix. I call these made-up words as made-up or mutated words. Never ever use them if you dont have to. Protect beautiful turkish, dont pollute it with mutated words.
Edited (12/24/2012) by ikicihan
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25. |
24 Dec 2012 Mon 04:57 pm |
enteresan hakikaten..türkçeninkine benzer hikayesi olan başka diller biliyor musunuz? özleştirmek adına reform üstüne reform yapan başka bir millet?gerçi o zamanlar maksat inkılap yapmaktı ya neyse..yurdum insanı atatürk vecizelerini sözlüksüz idrak edemez vaziyette..türkçenin bu acıklı haline hiç mi içiniz sızlamıyor ya?
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26. |
24 Dec 2012 Mon 05:31 pm |
enteresan hakikaten..türkçeninkine benzer hikayesi olan başka diller biliyor musunuz? özleştirmek adına reform üstüne reform yapan başka bir millet?gerçi o zamanlar maksat inkılap yapmaktı ya neyse..yurdum insanı atatürk vecizelerini sözlüksüz idrak edemez vaziyette..türkçenin bu acıklı haline hiç mi içiniz sızlamıyor ya?
I completely agree with you nevbahar.
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27. |
24 Dec 2012 Mon 05:54 pm |
enteresan hakikaten..türkçeninkine benzer hikayesi olan başka diller biliyor musunuz? özleştirmek adına reform üstüne reform yapan başka bir millet?
According to wikipedia:
Examples of language reforms areas given below.
Chinese (1920s) — replaced Classical Chinese with Vernacular Chinese as the standard written language. Mandarin was chosen at a committee from several Chinese dialects. (1950s PRC) — reformed the script used to write the standard language by introducing Simplified Chinese characters (later adopted by Singapore and Malaysia, but Traditional Chinese characters remain in use in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, and various overseas Chinese communities). Czech (19th century) — The dictionary of Josef Jungmann contributed to the renewal of the vocabulary. In the 1840s the letter w became replaced by v. Estonian (1910s/1920s) — reform movement led by Johannes Aavik and Johannes V. Veski renewed the vocabulary, borrowing a lot of roots from Finnish and other Uralic languages and even inventing some roots. German (1901/02) — unified the spelling system nationwide (first in Germany, with later adoption by other Germanophone countries). Further reforms were enacted more recently, in the German spelling reform of 1996. Greek (1970s/1980s) — while the written "pure" language, the katharevusa was full of Old Greek words, the spoken "popular" language, the dhimotiki was not. After the fall of the military rule, a law was promulgated, making the latter become the written language as well. For example, on Greek coins, the plural of the currency was drachmai (katharevusa form) before and became drachmes (dhimotiki form) after 1982. Hebrew (1920s) — Modern Hebrew was created from Ancient Hebrew by simplification of the grammar (especially of the syntax) according to Indo-European models, coinage of new words from Hebrew roots based on European models, and simplification of pronunciation rules. Linguist Ghil´ad Zuckermann argues that Modern Hebrew, which he terms "Israeli", is a Semito-European hybrid, based not only on Hebrew but also on Yiddish and other languages spoken by revivalists.[1] Zuckermann therefore endorses the translation of the Hebrew Bible into what he calls "Israeli".[2] Hungarian (late 18th and early 19th centuries) — more than ten thousand words were coined,[3] out of which several thousand are still actively used today (see also Ferenc Kazinczy). Irish (1940s) — spelling system greatly simplified: Gaedheal became Gael, and Ó Séigheadh became Ó Sé. Japanese (1946) — historical kana usage was replaced by modern kana usage, while the kanji system also transformed from Traditional Chinese characters to New Characters. Norwegian (20th century) — as Norway became independent from Denmark (1814), Norwegian started to drift away from Danish. The reforms in 1907 and 1917 made Riksmål the written standard Norwegian, renamed Bokmål in 1929. Bokmål and the more vernacular Nynorsk were made closer by a reform in 1938. Today both language forms are spoken: on Norwegian coins, the name of the country is alternately Norge (Bokmål) and Noreg (Nynorsk). Portuguese (20th century) — replaced a cumbersome traditional spelling system with a simplified one (asthma, for instance, became asma and phthysica became tísica). Romanian (19th century) — replaced Cyrillic script with the Latin alphabet, deprecated hundreds of Slavic words in favour of Romance ones. Romanian has undergone spelling reforms in 1904, 1953, and, most recently, in 1993, with two minor ones in 1964 and 2005. Somali (1970s) — modified Latin script developed by Somali linguist Shire Jama Ahmed for writing the Somali language; made compulsory in 1972 by the President of Somalia, General Mohamed Siad Barre. Also the vocabulary was renewed, a lot of new words became coined from existing Somali roots. Turkish (1930s) — language and writing system were reformed starting in the 1920s, to the point that the older language is called by a different name, Ottoman Turkish. The Ottoman alphabet was based on the Arabic alphabet, which was replaced in 1928 by the new, Latin-based Turkish alphabet. Loanwords of Persian and Arabic origin were dropped in favor of native Turkish words or new coinages based on Turkic roots. Vietnamese (20th century) — Classical Chinese lost official status in 1918, and the colonial schools instituted a "Franco-Vietnamese Curriculum" at this time. Vietnamese was taught using the Latin alphabet, and this form soon became dominent.
Edited (12/24/2012) by Umut_Umut
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28. |
24 Dec 2012 Mon 06:17 pm |
I am waiting for USA or England to reform english, purifying english from the french, german and dutch originated words! Just imagine it! Say goodbye to richest vocabulary language!
Writing system reforms are whole different subject. We are not started to discuss it yet. Writing system doesnt change language as long as you use the same words. It doesnt matter how you write, in latin or cyrillic, in simplified chinese or traditional chinese...
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29. |
24 Dec 2012 Mon 06:34 pm |
Writing system reforms are whole different subject. We are not started to discuss it yet. Writing system doesnt change language as long as you use the same words. It doesnt matter how you write, in latin or cyrillic, in simplified chinese or traditional chinese...
What i sent was not only writing system reforms ikicihan. You may read it again.
Czech (19th century) — The dictionary of Josef Jungmann contributed to the renewal of the vocabulary.
Estonian (1910s/1920s) — reform movement led by Johannes Aavik and Johannes V. Veski renewed the vocabulary, borrowing a lot of roots from Finnish and other Uralic languages and even inventing some roots. Hebrew (1920s) — Modern Hebrew was created from Ancient Hebrew by simplification of the grammar (especially of the syntax) according to Indo-European models, coinage of new words from Hebrew roots based on European models, and simplification of pronunciation rules.
Hungarian (late 18th and early 19th centuries) — more than ten thousand words were coined,[3] out of which several thousand are still actively used today (see also Ferenc Kazinczy).
Romanian (19th century) — replaced Cyrillic script with the Latin alphabet, deprecated hundreds of Slavic words in favour of Romance ones. Romanian has undergone spelling reforms in 1904, 1953, and, most recently, in 1993, with two minor ones in 1964 and 2005.
Somali (1970s) — modified Latin script developed by Somali linguist Shire Jama Ahmed for writing the Somali language; made compulsory in 1972 by the President of Somalia, General Mohamed Siad Barre. Also the vocabulary was renewed, a lot of new words became coined from existing Somali roots.
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30. |
25 Dec 2012 Tue 08:59 am |
enteresan hakikaten..türkçeninkine benzer hikayesi olan başka diller biliyor musunuz? özleştirmek adına reform üstüne reform yapan başka bir millet?gerçi o zamanlar maksat inkılap yapmaktı ya neyse..yurdum insanı atatürk vecizelerini sözlüksüz idrak edemez vaziyette..türkçenin bu acıklı haline hiç mi içiniz sızlamıyor ya?
Yönetim kadrosunun dili ile halkın dili bir oldu; işte devrim bu (inkilap falan değil). Sen Atatürk´ü anlayamıyorsan, neyi anladığını çok merak ediyorum.
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