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A modern Ottoman
(83 Messages in 9 pages - View all)
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70.       theblonde
148 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 03:39 pm

Quote: TheAenigma

As an example, there is a strange view from Turks that the EU is "Christian" (when in fact, although we have "official religion" most northern europeans don´t give religion much thought at all would probably describe themselves as agnostic or atheist!!).  The perception of many Turks is that "we don´t like Turkey because they are muslim (!).  I think they give us too much credit for deep thought and caring about Turkey!!! 

In principle I agree with you Aenigma, however on my fairly recent reunion with a  friend who happens to be an employee of the ´EU apparatus´ we had an innocent debate about whether or not Turkey will ever be considered to be incorporated into EU. And the answer was: ´There is a huge cultural and religious divide between EU and Turkey and EU is trying to form a block of countries based on many similar historical, cultural, religious and political values, so ultimately Turkey would not fit into that pattern. But this will be solved by some sort of a special commercial agreement.´

Is it not Europe that is at fault for the division??

71.       TheAenigma
5001 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 03:43 pm

 

Quoting theblonde

Quote: TheAenigma

As an example, there is a strange view from Turks that the EU is "Christian" (when in fact, although we have "official religion" most northern europeans don´t give religion much thought at all would probably describe themselves as agnostic or atheist!!).  The perception of many Turks is that "we don´t like Turkey because they are muslim (!).  I think they give us too much credit for deep thought and caring about Turkey!!! 

In principle I agree with you Aenigma, however on my fairly recent reunion with a  friend who happens to be an employee of the ´EU apparatus´ we had an innocent debate about whether or not Turkey will ever be considered to be incorporated into EU. And the answer was: ´There is a huge cultural and religious divide between EU and Turkey and EU is trying to form a block of countries based on many similar historical, cultural, religious and political values, so ultimately Turkey would not fit into that pattern. But this will be solved by some sort of a special commercial agreement.´

Is it not Europe that is at fault for the division??

 

 I was talking about the general populus - not EU governments.  Yes of course I can understand anger at our governments.  It is actually ridiculous to say there is a huge cultural and religious divide - as I said we have a huge population of muslims, hindus etc. in the EU. 



Edited (3/13/2009) by TheAenigma
Edited (3/13/2009) by TheAenigma

72.       chiko
135 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 03:50 pm

I think it is not religion what make people hate eacother.Our identities divide us and make us hate eachother. As a Turkish, we are supposed to hate Grek or whatever, as a muslim we are supposed to hate atheist, as a fenerbahce fan i am supposed to hate Galatasaray, as a Ýstanbulian i am supposed to hate Ankara, as a kurdish i am supposed to hate Turkish nationalists ..... i am very sure that if we didnt have religions we would still  have many other reasons to hate eachother. to blame religions for causing so much hate is ignoring human nature. we just want to have an identity and hate the "others". sad but true.



Edited (3/13/2009) by chiko [why would i have to reason it? this is really stupid :D]

73.       TheAenigma
5001 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 03:52 pm

 

Quoting chiko

 as a fenerbahce fan i am supposed to hate Galatasaray

 

 This sounds completely reasonable to me

74.       theblonde
148 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 04:08 pm

Quote: chiko

I think it is not religion what make people hate eacother.Our identities divide us and make us hate eachother. As a Turkish, we are supposed to hate Grek or whatever, as a muslim we are supposed to hate atheist, as a fenerbahce fan i am supposed to hate Galatasaray, as a Ýstanbulian i am supposed to hate Ankara, as a kurdish i am supposed to hate Turkish nationalists ..... i am very sure that if we didnt have religions we would still  have many other reasons to hate eachother. to blame religions for causing so much hate is ignoring human nature. we just want to have an identity and hate the "others". sad but true.

I think a lot of human beings mistake ´identity´ with ´loyalty´, but we always tend to forget acceptance or respect or tolerance. Sadly, not many religious leaders, politicians or football club owners refer to those terms...

75.       TheAenigma
5001 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 04:11 pm

 

Quoting theblonde

Quote: chiko

I think it is not religion what make people hate eacother.Our identities divide us and make us hate eachother. As a Turkish, we are supposed to hate Grek or whatever, as a muslim we are supposed to hate atheist, as a fenerbahce fan i am supposed to hate Galatasaray, as a Ýstanbulian i am supposed to hate Ankara, as a kurdish i am supposed to hate Turkish nationalists ..... i am very sure that if we didnt have religions we would still  have many other reasons to hate eachother. to blame religions for causing so much hate is ignoring human nature. we just want to have an identity and hate the "others". sad but true.

I think a lot of human beings mistake ´identity´ with ´loyalty´, but we always tend to forget acceptance or respect or tolerance. Sadly, not many religious leaders, politicians or football club owners refer to those terms...

 

If you think you are respectful and tolerant, try arguing with Tami...he will turn you into a fire breathing patriot in 60 seconds! lol

 

76.       theblonde
148 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 04:13 pm

Take your point Aenigma. Depends if Tami is accepting, respectful or tolerant himself... only this way I am willing to find common grounds for a discussion

77.       SuiGeneris
3922 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 04:17 pm

 

Quoting TheAenigma

 

 

 I do shut my mind to such illogical comments - we have a huge population of muslims in the EU so that comment is wrong.

 

If I were to believe governments as "general thought" in a country, then I would believe that Turkey supported Israel in the Gaza conflict!!

 

Hate in my heart?  I have no such hate - you need to be religious to have that!

 

 Thats why you always nagging huh? You dont have any hate in your heart... you have a great hate and its obvious to be seen!

 

And politicals shows more about general thoughts! Because the society is electing them, am i wrong? i dont think so.

 

In these type of conversations and discussions you will never accept the idea from other perspective... because you are closed to them and you will fight till you make the others accept your point...

78.       femmeous
2642 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 04:19 pm

 

Quoting Melek74

 

 

I´ll disagree, but mainly in semantics. When I talk about religion, I´m referring to the whole system of dogmas, tenets, holy books, practices, the institution of it all and I feel that aspect of religion should not be immune to evaluation. To me religion is different from faith - I differentiate it from somebody´s personal beliefs (which usually are quite different from the "official" religion, as we know people pick and choose whatever fits their needs, most don´t follow their religions to a "t") and I agree it can be deeply spiritual, personal, etc. I´m not criticizing that. One´s personal relationship with the "higher power" whatever that is, is none of my business. And yes, I do make concessions, I wouldn´t disrespect mosques and churches, and my goal is not to offend people, but to get to the point where it´s ok to say, hey, let´s look at this, maybe there´s something wrong with this or that dogma here.

 

 +1

couldnt agree more. thanks

79.       theblonde
148 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 04:21 pm

Quote: SuiGeneris

because you are closed to them and you will fight till you make the others accept your point...

I don´t think she is fighting, do you really think that? She is merely expressing her opinion and so are you. I don´t see anywhere in her words she is trying to make you or anyone believe what she believes ....

But perhaps she doesn´t like ´dudus´ just like I don´t {#lang_emotions_lol_fast} (this is a joke by the way, not a fight)



Edited (3/13/2009) by theblonde

80.       TheAenigma
5001 posts
 13 Mar 2009 Fri 04:21 pm

 

Quoting SuiGeneris

 

 

 Thats why you always nagging huh? You dont have any hate in your heart... you have a great hate and its obvious to be seen!

 

 Eh?  What is this?  Some kind of PT style psychoanalysis?

 

Quoting SuiGeneris

And politicals shows more about general thoughts! Because the society is electing them, am i wrong? i dont think so.

 

Ahh ok, so I should accept that Turkey supporting Israel and US is the general thought of Turkey?  You agree all with Erdogan and everything he does?

 

Quoting SuiGeneris

 

In these type of conversations and discussions you will never accept the idea from other perspective... because you are closed to them and you will fight till you make the others accept your point...

 

lol - I think you and Tami are better taking this advice yourselves! lol



Edited (3/13/2009) by TheAenigma

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