Catwoman are you really sending these posts for discussing something or is it just a pillow fight for you? If you are aware of a better form of hospitality and virteous treatment in your own history please quote it to me.

I believe in the decency of my own hospitable people and I am proud of being one of them. I don't think they deserve anyone of the disparagement you are trying to direct at them. You can't judge an entire nation with observations based on a few people.

I dont agree with you vine..
I dont think my satements were contradicting at all.
I was simply trying to say that there is a thin line between them and someone has to be very careful where it stands.
And all nationalists call them patriots (culture or country is nothing to do with it). When you hear some patriotic comments from a Turk, I always get a bit suspicious to be honest, thinking that 'OMG here comes another racist'. And, sadly, 99% of the time I am right.
The meaning of those words differ from culture to culture? They might.
But, however, racism is racism anywhere.


About my list: I was trying to say that all those leaders did/do these things for some reasons. They had/have patriotic reasons why they do or did.
They were all patriots in their definitions.
About Bush: Oh boy..He deserves to be in that list. If he will not be, what are we going to with nearly 1 million dead Iraqies or Afghans? What are we going to do with 4 million displaced people in Iraq? And all of these are STILL going on as we write/read here.

About Ataturk: He was a dictator sometimes. He did make mistakes. But dont forget he was a very good soldier lived in the last century's world.
He was a dictator to stop anybody being a dictator after him and he tried to creat a democratic society from ashes.
I dont think he should be in that list. But we, Turks, should not be cross with people critisising him either. Because we can easily defend him.

About racisim and nationalism in Turkey: There is a lot to say. We , Turks should know our past better. We should know how it all started, we should know how it was centuries ago (no racism I believe), how it was a century ago (rise of nationalism world wide) , how it was during and after WW2 (racist ideas, hitler, Nihal atsiz in Turkey) and where we are now after all.
We can not just say 'centuries ago we welcomed jews from spain' and forget 1915 , how we kicked out greeks, how we tried to call kurds 'turks living in mountains, walking on the snow and making sounds -kart-kurt'. We should face all our history without fear and without picking up some part of it only.
So we can move on.
....
Phew...
I looked at what i wrote..It looks pretty serious stuff (deaths/dictators etc)..
Lets forget all above
here is a link for people, who miss istanbul alot.

There is again a thin line that seperates us in our definitions of certain concepts. You are describing chauvenist nationalists and categorizing them as patriots just because they call themselves as such. We musn't base on people's ow asssumptions as to who they are. We know that everyone thinks he is right so they chose the best sounding attributes when describing themselves.

I will cut it short because I don't want this one to go out of control too. If you want to discuss this we must either do that via PM's or through some other political forum.

I believe we are all guilty at one time or another in discussing political or religous topics. Even replying or posting in a forum where discussions on these topics are taking place is considered to be guilt by association. However, we all of the freedom to choose whether or not to partake in such discussions or reading these threads.

I personally find many of the posts to be hyprocritical from certain individuals here. It's ok to scrutinize, attack and insult others in your own manner. However when the table is turned, I see quotes by members reciting the rules here. How hyprocritical is that, I ask.

The same members who feel violated and insulted that their past, present government,leader and country is being thrown under the bus. Have no problem insulting another countries government or leader. The saying goes you reep what you sow. Don't expect people to give you the respect that you lack in the first place. You don't deserve it!

I hear more Bush bashing at this site than I hear in the media. The facts are we all live in countries where we have militaries who have led or participated in some form of violence. Whether it's current or in the past it's part of history now.

We all have our own opinions here on whats right and wrong. But if you continue to express yours here so freely, be prepared to get a reaction and this may not be the reaction your looking for either.

Bush drunk at a wedding in 1992

Bush drunk at a wedding