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informal thoughts on Turkish Class
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| 70. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 08:49 pm |
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Quoting vineyards: Femme you should really reset your prejudices. You are insulting all the Easterners including your own Kazakhs collectively now. Do you have a spine? Or are you a jelly fish? |
So she's also not allowed to criticize Kazakhs now either? I thought she'd have the right to do that since she's from there...
Yes, I agree that she generalized all Turks and Greeks unfairly, but the point is that there are many Turks who still think the way she described - would you agree with that? (and I remember that you were often in conflict with some Turkish people because you were against such behavior).
I think that it's those who are so easily insulted that they can't even hold a conversation who should grow a spine as well.
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| 71. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 08:52 pm |
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Quoting SuiGeneris: thats for sure that... you didnt see lots of turks dancing with greeks in istanbul... |
+1 
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| 72. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 09:01 pm |
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Many Polish friends I chatted online curse Turks. With so many Balkan countries cursing Turks (for example when you are playing a computer game) passes for a routine salutation which is solemnly made. They say (including some Kazakhs) Hey ....... Turk .... get the hell out of here. I rarely see any Turks showing this kind of a reaction to them. I believe their brains are washed in their families and in the churches they go. This problem is more evident among teenagers who don't know yet any systematic ways to exercise their hatred.
Nevertheless, there is a full district called Polonezköy in Istanbul. Our sultan opened up the doors to thousands of them in their difficult times. Today, all those Polish settlers enjoy a very good life in their new home. It is unbelievable why an avarage Pole should hate a Turk because our history is full of accounts of our troops helping them out of besieges and attacks. The same is true for the Jews too. We did make a number of outrageous mistakes too. For the time being none has been proven and research continues with all sorts of claims being made.
Today I am chatting with one Kazakh and a Polish girl whose only problem seem to be the anti western sentiment in Turkey. To put the record straight, I do have lots of friends in the Western world and I am a fan of their music, culture and heritage. What I am against is the nationalistic policies the so called falcons in American are following. For example, did any one of the debaters here ever read the National Defense Doctrine of the US government. After reading it you will realize why Bush can be categorized alongside Hitler. Because even Hitler could not dare pass such an aggressive defense doctrine in his hey day.
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| 73. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 09:04 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting teaschip1: My only comment of course is to reference Bush in the same context as Hitler and Stalin. Just thought it was a little extreme. |
Yes, I agree. If you're adding milder nationalists you should definitely add Ataturk before Bush. |
even I agree with that...
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| 74. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 09:06 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting vineyards: Yes, after reading this I should be mad at you and flame you because I consider Ataturk as a national hero and you are adding it on the same list with Stalin, Hitler and Bush.
Sorry, I thought and decided I am not that cheap.
I made a number of very serious accusations to you. You did not want to answer them and now looking to have a chance to get even. |
Vineyards, as opposed to you, I'm not here to fight with you. I also consider Ataturk a national hero as well as one of the greatest leaders that ever existed. That doesn't mean that he wasn't a nationalist. I understand why he began the nationalism in Turkey, but I think that Turkish people didn't carry on with Ataturk's ideas and are stagnated in a way. I'm sure that if Ataturk was alive now, he'd curb the nationalism and begin a more open-minded movement.
And by the way, Bush should NOT be compared to Hitler or Stalin either!!! |
the words for Hitler and stalin should not be nationalist but fascist. very big difference...
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| 75. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 09:09 pm |
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Quoting vineyards: Many Polish friends I chatted online curse Turks. With so many Balkan countries cursing Turks (for example when you are playing a computer game) passes for a routine salutation which is solemnly made. They say (including some Kazakhs) Hey ....... Turk .... get the hell out of here. I rarely see any Turks showing this kind of a reaction to them. I believe their brains are washed in their families and in the churches they go. This problem is more evident among teenagers who don't know yet any systematic ways to exercise their hatred. |
Oh, so now YOU are generalizing EVERYBODY! Very interesting - looks like it's allowed to do that when it serves your purposes. I would again question what Poland now has to do with this conversation...
Quoting vineyards: Nevertheless, there is a full district called Polonezköy in Istanbul. Our sultan opened up the doors to thousands of them in their difficult times. Today, all those Polish settlers enjoy a very good life in their new home. It is unbelievable why an avarage Pole should hate a Turk because our history is full of accounts of our troops helping them out of besieges and attacks. The same is true for the Jews too. We did make a number of outrageous mistakes too. For the time being none has been proven and research continues with all sorts of claims being made. |
None of them has been proven...???  Did you hear about the killings of Christians in Malatya by the way?
Quoting vineyards: Today I am chatting with one Kazakh and a Polish girl whose only problem seem to be the anti western sentiment in Turkey. To put the record straight, I do have lots of friends in the Western world and I am a fan of their music, culture and heritage. What I am against is the nationalistic policies the so called falcons in American are following. For example, did any one of the debaters here ever read the National Defense Doctrine of the US government. After reading it you will realize why Bush can be categorized alongside Hitler. Because even Hitler could not dare pass such a vandalistic defense doctrine in his hey day. |
Bush did not set up Holocaust where he's burning people alive!!! Get that straight! You are again not being fair. Nobody is defending Bush's politics, on the contrary - he is severely criticized in his own country. However, when it comes to criticizing the east and Turkey, you seem to get very offended!
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| 76. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 09:10 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: the words for Hitler and stalin should not be nationalist but fascist. very big difference... |
Yes, exactly.
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| 77. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 09:14 pm |
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Quoting vineyards: Many Polish friends I chatted online curse Turks. With so many Balkan countries cursing Turks (for example when you are playing a computer game) passes for a routine salutation which is solemnly made. They say (including some Kazakhs) Hey ....... Turk .... get the hell out of here. I rarely see any Turks showing this kind of a reaction to them. I believe their brains are washed in their families and in the churches they go. This problem is more evident among teenagers who don't know yet any systematic ways to exercise their hatred.
Nevertheless, there is a full district called Polonezköy in Istanbul. Our sultan opened up the doors to thousands of them in their difficult times. Today, all those Polish settlers enjoy a very good life in their new home. It is unbelievable why an avarage Pole should hate a Turk because our history is full of accounts of our troops helping them out of besieges and attacks. The same is true for the Jews too. We did make a number of outrageous mistakes too. For the time being none has been proven and research continues with all sorts of claims being made.
Today I am chatting with one Kazakh and a Polish girl whose only problem seem to be the anti western sentiment in Turkey. To put the record straight, I do have lots of friends in the Western world and I am a fan of their music, culture and heritage. What I am against is the nationalistic policies the so called falcons in American are following. For example, did any one of the debaters here ever read the National Defense Doctrine of the US government. After reading it you will realize why Bush can be categorized alongside Hitler. Because even Hitler could not dare pass such an aggressive defense doctrine in his hey day. |
I agree with this. I have worked in Greece and Yugoslavia in the years before I came to Turkey. I had no association whatsoever with Turkey and any Turks at that time and I was shocked at how deep and widespread the hatred (masking as jealousy) of Turkey was. So many blame all the problems of their life on what happened in their lands 100+ years ago. Even while I was in university in the states, I went to school with Greeks, Serbs and Croats. This was the mid 80's and even then, the word turk was not spoken without a deragatory adjective in front of it.
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| 78. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 09:20 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting vineyards: Many Polish friends I chatted online curse Turks. With so many Balkan countries cursing Turks (for example when you are playing a computer game) passes for a routine salutation which is solemnly made. They say (including some Kazakhs) Hey ....... Turk .... get the hell out of here. I rarely see any Turks showing this kind of a reaction to them. I believe their brains are washed in their families and in the churches they go. This problem is more evident among teenagers who don't know yet any systematic ways to exercise their hatred. |
Oh, so now YOU are generalizing EVERYBODY! Very interesting - looks like it's allowed to do that when it serves your purposes. I would again question what Poland now has to do with this conversation...
There is no generalization here. What I am saying concerns those people whom I chatted with and this point is laid out correctly. Furthermore, if that happens every now and then you may feel the need of reasoning it. We are not blind are we?
Quoting vineyards: Nevertheless, there is a full district called Polonezköy in Istanbul. Our sultan opened up the doors to thousands of them in their difficult times. Today, all those Polish settlers enjoy a very good life in their new home. It is unbelievable why an avarage Pole should hate a Turk because our history is full of accounts of our troops helping them out of besieges and attacks. The same is true for the Jews too. We did make a number of outrageous mistakes too. For the time being none has been proven and research continues with all sorts of claims being made. |
None of them has been proven...??? Did you hear about the killings of Christians in Malatya by the way?
Did you ever hear about the human rights violations in US controlled Iraq. Do you really care about those desacrating Muslims' holy book and those raping and torturing them? Plus I am not happy about whatever killing or massacre that happened on either side.
Quoting vineyards: Today I am chatting with one Kazakh and a Polish girl whose only problem seem to be the anti western sentiment in Turkey. To put the record straight, I do have lots of friends in the Western world and I am a fan of their music, culture and heritage. What I am against is the nationalistic policies the so called falcons in American are following. For example, did any one of the debaters here ever read the National Defense Doctrine of the US government. After reading it you will realize why Bush can be categorized alongside Hitler. Because even Hitler could not dare pass such a vandalistic defense doctrine in his hey day. |
Bush did not set up Holocaust where he's burning people alive!!! Get that straight! You are again not being fair. Nobody is defending Bush's politics, on the contrary - he is severely criticized in his own country. However, when it comes to criticizing the east and Turkey, you seem to get very offended! |
It is because I am neither a racist nor a nationalist. On the other hand, some of the remarks made by the certain gang members here can be categorized using more serious words than the ones you implied.
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| 79. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 09:28 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: I agree with this. I have worked in Greece and Yugoslavia in the years before I came to Turkey. I had no association whatsoever with Turkey and any Turks at that time and I was shocked at how deep and widespread the hatred (masking as jealousy) of Turkey was. So many blame all the problems of their life on what happened in their lands 100+ years ago. Even while I was in university in the states, I went to school with Greeks, Serbs and Croats. This was the mid 80's and even then, the word turk was not spoken without a deragatory adjective in front of it. |
Does that include Polish people though? I don't know about any anti-Turkish attitudes in Poland right now. I would guess that if there are any, it's because of the situation of Turks in Germany.
I am sure that there is hatred of Turkey in Balkan countries because of the past. Ottomans (Turks) invaded them! I don't know what the Turkish attitude in this sphere is, but I think that they should at least apologize for their past. I can understand these feelings because Poland has been under both Russian, German and Austrian invasion in the past and unless those countries reach out, it's hard to just move on and forget the past.
Vineyards seems to be very one-sided in this conversation. He is eager to criticize American imperialism, but as far as criticizing Turkish past, he says this:
Quoting vineyards: We did make a number of outrageous mistakes too. For the time being none has been proven and research continues with all sorts of claims being made. |
I would at least expect equal standards, but that's not what I gather from this conversation.
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| 80. |
27 Sep 2007 Thu 09:29 pm |
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Catwoman follow this link to read the Polish account of what forced the Poles to come to Turkey and what happened to them here : http://www.polonezkoy.com/history.html
The we can discuss your remaining prejudices as well as the reasons why me and other Turks should be blatantly cursed by the Poles we meet.
Let me tell you beforehand, you have enough prejudices to fill the Earth.
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