Quoting azade:

......... It's should be for professionals, not young kids.

Quoting AlphaF:

Look, I served in this army and my son served in this army - partly because we felt it was our responsibility to protect you and your husband's sisters.

It is not on to chicken out and cry in complaints, when it is his turn to serve. It is his own honor, do you think Turkish Army desparately needs his services?

Quoting alameda:

Quoting AlphaF:

I strongly doubt if her interest is in the society she, or her family, are living in...

Quoting azade:

Quoting azade:

Quoting AlphaF:

Quoting azade:

Okay. There's only one thing I can guess you are hinting about but I don't know for sure. But if you are hinting about the thing I suspect you are, then it is not the case. Far from. But I don't know what is is that you are hinting so pm me if you are hinting about something that is not allowed to be written here.
Myself, I considder me being pretty modern on this topic. Loads and loads of other countries have changed tactics when it comes to type of army. Why doesn't Turkey? It would be a hell of a lot better for the economy too.
But I can only say the same. Old type of wars finished with WWI there's no need for big armies anymore but professional ones. And the army doesn't make a man.

Quoting kafesteki kus:

From the masculine point of view serving in the army can be a honour and a duty but from feminine it is a waste of time.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting thehandsom:

Well..
All I said was to approve what Azade said actually (I did not write any single word at all.. How bizarre!!)..

Azade thinks that Turkey needs a professional army.
Are there anybody STILL think that Turkey does not need a professional army?

Azade did not want our young boys to become an easy target in fights and die.
Do we really want our young boys to become an easy target and die?

And about being a man and being a 'delikanli'. Well, it is a bit 'up close and personal' to be honest. Very bizaare

Quoting thehandsom:

Well..
All I said was to approve what Azade said actually (I did not write any single word at all.. How bizarre!!)..

Azade thinks that Turkey needs a professional army.
Are there anybody STILL think that Turkey does not need a professional army?

Azade did not want our young boys to become an easy target in fights and die.
Do we really want our young boys to become an easy target and die?

And about being a man and being a 'delikanli'. Well, it is a bit 'up close and personal' to be honest. Very bizaare

Quoting justinetime:

Quoting Roswitha:

not fair! Luetfen English translation please! Thanks.

Quoting femme_fatal:

its a total bullshit that boys become 'men' in the army, your men can also become 'men' as well in prisons.

Quoting teaschip1:

I am totally against drafting, for a government to mandate anyone to serve in the military is beyond me. I believe it should be voluntary and those who enlist reep at least some benefits when they return. How about a paid education or at least some type of compensation. Having some type of benefits to attract those who want to volunteer to serve their country. I don't think drafting should be mandated, unless of course that is the last resort..

Quoting femme_fatal:

its a total bullshit that boys become "men" in the army, your men can also become "men" as well in prisons.
the army in my country is also a cruel place for many boys at 17, just in my tiny village of 300 houses, 1 committed suicide, 1 returned home as a mental and physical invalid totally incapable to live a normal life, another nextdoor boy returned mental (who was a such great boy with a super sense of humor who graduated school with excellent grades) today is someone strange and insane.

the army must voluteery and professional, for some who feel its their menlike place.

Quoting KeithL:

I am pro mandatory military service. 18 months.
Bush would have never had public support to enter Irak with the military including the sons of congressman.
Also, the two most important wars on the 20th centrury were won with a drafted army, WWI and WWII.
Many if not most european nations require a minimum military service.
So many kids finish high school with no clue what to do with their lives. Two years of maturity in service would give us better members of society. Exposing the best of the best to the military will only give us a stronger and better military...

Quoting ciko:

Quoting AEnigma III:

I think military service is not such a bad thing

Quoting KeithL:

I am pro mandatory military service. 18 months.
Bush would have never had public support to enter Irak with the military including the sons of congressman.
Also, the two most important wars on the 20th centrury were won with a drafted army, WWI and WWII.
Many if not most european nations require a minimum military service.
So many kids finish high school with no clue what to do with their lives. Two years of maturity in service would give us better members of society. Exposing the best of the best to the military will only give us a stronger and better military...

Quoting alameda:

Agreed but mostly because it involves everyone in any military campaign.

Quoting femme_fatal:

its a total bullshit that boys become "men" in the army, your men can also become "men" as well in prisons.
the army in my country is also a cruel place for many boys at 17, just in my tiny village of 300 houses, 1 committed suicide, 1 returned home as a mental and physical invalid totally incapable to live a normal life, another nextdoor boy returned mental (who was a such great boy with a super sense of humor who graduated school with excellent grades) today is someone strange and insane.

the army must voluteery and professional, for some who feel its their menlike place.

Quoting catwoman:

...Why is it such a good thing Alameda??? Why should everybody be involved in a MILITARY campaign??? What if you hate wars? What if you don't agree with your country's policies? Why do you still have to be involved in it despite your will and conviction? I believe that you and the government have NO RIGHT to force people to go to the military and learn how to shoot other people, be brainwashed with sick nationalistic propaganda and ultimately put their lives on the line because of their government's policies! There don't have to be wars any more, but if there are individuals who are ok with going to military and voluntarily choose to do so, then it's ok.
.......................

Quoting alameda:

I think it's important that those who have a real stake in the outcome be involved in the process, not those whose profession is bound up with conflict.

Quoting alameda:

When ALL the citizens are involved in the defense of the country, the citizens are more aware and involved.

Quoting zettea:

It is difficult for any of us to understand the fears in a soldiers mind before he has to face the risks he is about to take.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting thehandsom:

'brainwashing and nationistic crap' is well spotted catwoman.
'breaking free spirit of the young men' should be included up there too.
Look at the young men going to the army and see them later on when they come back. You will see the difference!
20 years old young boys, full of life, energy, all of them are different. See them two months later: They will all look and behave the same. Not full of life anymore, half scared, semi broken. They wont go anywhere without permission. They wont express any ideas, they will just listen and approve.
In Turkey, I always believed, army has a duty to break men's spirits so that they wont become critisising members of the society. They wont rebel agaist the statusquo.
But we know that each statusquo needs critisizing for better. (How you can change the things for better otherwise!)
Apart from all above, there is also the ethical side of being a soldier.
I never ever believed all armies are kept for defence only.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting AlphaF:

It will be nicer if you stop erasing my posts.
This is called misuse of authority and is dishonest.

Quoting AlphaF:

The one you deleted was not about hate or stupidity.

It mentiond "lack of respect" and "despising"

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

So...you don't think the citizens have a real stake in the outcome? I think that is idea of Citizen Army.

Quoting AlphaF:

Do you think he'd get the general idea? not very likely!

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting AEnigma III:

I would be interested to hear about AlphaF's experiences of military service. Let me guess...officer? Some nice, minimal period of easy duties?

Did they risk sending someone of his background to rough it with the others?

Quoting AlphaF:

TO: ADMINISTRATOR OF THIS WEBSITE (openly personal)


I dont mind Admin or moderators erasing my public posts.

But I strongly object to irresponsible moderators, going thru other peoples private mails, unless a private message carries insults and invokes complaints from the receiver.

One of my private messages is also erased....now, I think this is really low and dishonest.

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting ciko:

i hope so! i would not like admins to realise that i am a dudu and hunting western girls here

Quoting azade:

catwoman and femme we actually agree on something Clever words.

Quoting femme_fatal:

.....................alameda, you make my blood boil when you speak such rubbish.

Quoting alameda:

I would not discount my opinion as "rubbish" and why is your blood boiling because I have expressed an opinion? I have not denigrated your opinions, nor does my blood boil because you disagree with me. I actually think about what you write and try to give thoughtful responses.

Quoting alameda:

Quoting femme_fatal:

im informing you what happens to my blood pressure when you speak rubbish. and give me a break with your thoughtful responses.

so far only thoughtful opinion i read from you was about exploding whales.

Quoting alameda:

Quoting Elisabeth:

Back to the original post....I hope all these young men come home healthy and in one piece.

I would like to interject...if military service is going to be mandatory anywhere...the governments need to hold themselves to the highest standards in training and if someone is hurt because they were not properly or completely trained, the families of these victims need to be compensated.

Quoting Elisabeth:

Back to the original post....I hope all these young men come home healthy and in one piece.

I would like to interject...if military service is going to be mandatory anywhere...the governments need to hold themselves to the highest standards in training and if someone is hurt because they were not properly or completely trained, the families of these victims need to be compensated.

Quoting femme_fatal:

turkey is threatened by the whole world thats why it should be ready for any attack, esp from evil amerikans.

the thing is that its very difficult to quit the old tradition - i.e. army. turks were always soldiers. and why today they shouldnt be, they think. their ancestors were "real men" taking part in peaceful actions, why not them today?

Quoting Elisabeth:

Back to the original post....I hope all these young men come home healthy and in one piece.

I would like to interject...if military service is going to be mandatory anywhere...the governments need to hold themselves to the highest standards in training and if someone is hurt because they were not properly or completely trained, the families of these victims need to be compensated.

Quoting teaschip1:

................
A note to Omega; some of the Turks may see this as a priviledge to serve in your military, however I know many Turks here in the U.S. who ran like hell from your country, just to avoid serving. With the number of citizens in Turkey, it should not be mandated...

Quoting Roswitha:

I agree with you 500% - spoken from the heart!

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting Roswitha:

regarding Elisabeth's comment,she should be congratulated!

Quoting catwoman:

(maybe Aenigma hacked your account?

Quoting femme_fatal:

CONGRATUALTIONS! ELISABETH!

Quoting alameda:

Quoting teaschip1:

Quoting alameda:

Quoting teaschip1: Quoting alameda: Quoting teaschip1: ................ A note to Omega; some of the Turks may see this as a priviledge to serve in your military, however I know many Turks here in the U.S. who ran like hell from your country, just to avoid serving. With the number of citizens in Turkey, it should not be mandated... Hmmm....I seem to remember the same thing happening in the US in particular during the Vietnam War....and it's happening today too.....even though those serving now "volunteered" to join... Aladmeda, you obviously don't read my posts or have selective memory. I mentioned the Vietnam War and how my uncle died because of our government having a draft.

Quoting teaschip1:

.......... But please share with me where they are running like hell to as you mentioned currently and please no links...

Quoting alameda:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Well its also a fact that our soldiers in the UK have been traumatised by their experiences in Iraq to a degree never seen in combat by UK forces before. Many have psyhological and nervous conditions.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070703172027.htm

However this has nothing to do with the subject, merely that we should not be in Iraq!!

Quoting alameda:

I agree with you 100% we should never have gone to Iraq in the first place. My point, and I believe Keith's point was/is if the whole population were involved, and at risk,(like the children of some of those who voted on it) maybe/hopefully, we never would have gone there in the first place. As it is, it's too abstract and removed from the general population. It's sort of like 'well they volunteered to go'

When it's your neck on the line things look very different.

Quoting girleegirl:

...I normally stay out of political and religious discussions but this is just too ludicrous for me to not say something!
Are you seriously suggesting that if we didn't have an all volunteer army the US would not have invaded Iraq because the 'whole population' wouldn't have allowed it? What...would the army stage a coup and overthrow Mr. Bush?
Isn't Bush himself a prime example of how the 'children of some of the people' who vote on wars avoid duty?
He joined the National Guard at a time when President Johnson decided NOT to call up the guard for duty in Vietnam. Miraculously, he beat out over 500 other Guard applicants even though he had minimum testing scores on the pilot's test. Ohhh....I'm sure that had absolutely nothing to do with his father....the Congressman!
People in power find ways to stay out of harms way in times of war. Having required military service does not change that!

Quoting girleegirl:

I normally stay out of political and religious discussions

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting femme_fatal:

shortly, alameda has no her own opinion on army, and speaks rubbish, just because she needs to back up turkish nationalists! there was no strong point for her opinion, she just went round and round hitting no point.

alameda, why not try the hell of eastern armies, then speak up for compulsory military service?

Quoting alameda:

I think you are reading words that are not there.

Quoting alameda:

I agree with much of what you say, and respect your opinion, but who voted the deciders in to the position to send and start a war in the first place? Maybe if enough have a real concern about being sent to serve, the outcome would be different.

Quoting alameda:

Again, all those in the military do not serve on the front line. There are many positions to fill that do not involve front line combat. As it is now we have an unprecedented amount of outsourcing to those who profit from war. We have our National Guard, who we need here to help with things like forrest fires, floods, hurricane relief to mention only a few of areas they help with, now in Iraq, instead of at home where they signed up to serve.

Quoting femme_fatal:

i read you through and im watching you i know you perfectly!

Quoting alameda:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting AlphaF:

You are absolutely correct....

Quoting white-wolf:

Then rep me.

Wait..... there is no rep function in this forum.

Quoting white-wolf:

Let me express my thoughts about topic subject:

Quoting white-wolf:

I served at the Turkish Military for 18 months. I thought it was my duty to serve and I think same today.

Quoting white-wolf:

It is our tradition and customs to serve in the Army as a duty. It is one of the things that makes us Turks.

Quoting white-wolf:

When I have rights and privileges for a citizen of Turkey, it is normal that I have some duties.

Quoting white-wolf:

I can not shirk off what my ancestors had done to preserve the country and what sacrifies they did. I can do no less. It was my turn and I did my duty.

Quoting white-wolf:

Was it easy? No. But, let me ask you 'is life a disneyland'? No. Life is real, it is not a playground. Off course Military is hard and conscripts have every rights to fear.

Quoting white-wolf:

Saying that, I also support professional army.

Quoting white-wolf:

Only, as a addition to conscript army.

Quoting white-wolf:

It is not logical to fight with hardened mountain guerrillas with city boys who do not know end of a gun.

Quoting white-wolf:

my two cents.

Quoting ciko:

i like your style Femme and it makes me scared of you i dont think i will ever argue over anything with you..because i know i will be the wrong one at the end

Quoting AlphaF:

What makes you scared is not the depth of her wisdom, but the insincerety of her tone.....
Believe it or not !

Quoting AlphaF:

What makes you scared is not the depth of her wisdom, but the insincerety of her tone.....
Believe it or not !

Quoting white-wolf:

Thank you for your kind(!) reply Femme Fatal and naming me "boy".

For a few seconds I fell myself as a cell at the end of a microscope when I see your reply.

Quoting ciko:

Quoting ciko:

I am scared of the way she uses words and her wisdom, her tone, her arrogance and her cleverness

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting ciko: Quoting AlphaF: What makes you scared is not the depth of her wisdom, but the insincerety of her tone..... Believe it or not ! i am scared of the way she uses words and her wisdom, her tone, her arrogance and her cleverness

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting femme_fatal:

you are supposed to praise me, not ciko!

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: I am scared of the way she uses words and her wisdom, her tone, her arrogance and her cleverness Ciko, you are wise beyond your years

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting femme_fatal: Quoting AEnigma III: Quoting ciko: I am scared of the way she uses words and her wisdom, her tone, her arrogance and her cleverness Ciko, you are wise beyond your years you are supposed to praise me, not ciko!

Quoting AlphaF:

Her single concern seems to be what she is going to eat tonight !

Quoting AlphaF:

white-wolf,

Dont worry about FF. She keeps saying the old same old things, over and over again. Rather boring !

I do not think she has anything to do with higher aspirations like fatherland, honor etc...at least not in the sense we understand those concepts.

Her single concern seems to be what she is going to eat tonight !

Quoting AlphaF:

Dont worry about FF. She keeps saying the old same old things, over and over again. Rather boring!

Quoting AlphaF:

I do not think she has anything to do with higher aspirations like fatherland, honor etc...at least not in the sense we understand those concepts.

Quoting AlphaF:

Her single concern seems to be what she is going to eat tonight !

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting white-wolf:

However I think all the citizens need to learn soldiering in case of need. You know some mighty countries think we need more democracy!

Quoting AlphaF:

white-wolf,
In a moment you will see that your reply is totally wasted on FF. Want to bet?

Quoting AEnigma III:

Do you mind if we dont talk politics this week? I made a small wager with Catwoman and in my current financial circumstances I am determined to take her to the cleaners

Quoting AlphaF:

Why dont you say so, partner?

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting AEnigma III:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting white-wolf:

Thank you Catwoman,

However, there are reports of oil fields in the black sea (near to Zonguldak). Oooo...

"What do you think of young men having to stop their lifes for 2 years to go to the army?"
I think it is total waste of young men's years. But a necessary waste for the opinions that I mentioned before.

If the world is more peaceful than today, we do not need to make necessary sacrifices of our years.

Quoting catwoman:

I'm not sure though what military threat there is for Turkey? Do you really need such a huge army and all men trained to use weapons (at the expense of productivity)..?

Quoting white-wolf:

Quoting catwoman: Quoting white-wolf: However I think all the citizens need to learn soldiering in case of need. You know some mighty countries think we need more democracy! That's a good one... unfortunately But you don't need to fear those mighty countries, as you have NO oil, hence, your democracy is just fine! What do you think of young men having to stop their lifes for 2 years to go to the army? Many young men go to universities, then want to get a job and start a family, but they have to go to the army instead! From where some of them don't even come back... That's against human rights.

Quoting white-wolf:

Hmmm, let start neighbors from west:
-Greece : remember "megali idea" or "enosis"? do you remember Greece's last invasion of Asia Minor that checked near to Ankara? Or some Greeks' dream about Constantine and Symirna? Or their huge amount of weapon buyings?
-Bulgaria : their exodus of Turk-Muslim citizens at 1990s?
-Georgia : no threat here.
-Armenia : their dream about "great Armenia" and lost lands? Their unwillingness of erasing constitution paragraphs that demands on Turkish lands? Or their continuing invasion on %20 of Azerbaijan lands. Their hate of Turks?
-Iran : Their dream about exporting "Islam Republic" to Turkey?
-Iraq : N.Iraqi Kurds who dream about a united Kurdistan. Also remeber that crazy Saddam and his army.
-Syria : Still shows Hatay in their maps as a part of Syria. Recent home of Öcalan.
- Cyprus : Guess which country passport Öcalan was carrying when he was caught.

Please remember these are the just Turkey's immediate neighbors. There are others like Russia who demanded Kars and unrestricted access from straits back 1950s.

Then, tell me Turkey is in very peaceful spot of world and does not need huge military readiness.

Quoting catwoman:

Ok... this is YOUR view. What if for somebody else the army has far more harmful effects then all the positives you outlined? What if there are MANY men for whom the army is harmful and gives no positive benefits...?

Quoting AlphaF:

Once their medical status is established as such, by army Doctors, they are send to work in the tourist industry, where they serve as valiant dudus.

Quoting catwoman:

Ok... this is YOUR view. What if for somebody else the army has far more harmful effects then all the positives you outlined? What if there are MANY men for whom the army is harmful and gives no positive benefits...?

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting catwoman:

If there are such serious problems then surely there's no option.... I wish though that Turkey was more peaceful with its neighbors and finalized in peaceful ways all the Cyprus/Kurdish/Armenian/Greek... conflicts. Sometimes I have a feeling like Turkey doesn't really want to do that, but that's my opinion.

Quoting AlphaF:

Quoting ciko: Quoting catwoman: Ok... this is YOUR view. What if for somebody else the army has far more harmful effects then all the positives you outlined? What if there are MANY men for whom the army is harmful and gives no positive benefits...? i am one of those men the army gave me absolutely NOTHING!!!

Quoting ciko:

good answer alpha you are being like femme lately well done..go on go on

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting white-wolf:

Hmmm, let start neighbors from west:
-Greece : remember "megali idea" or "enosis"? do you remember Greece's last invasion of Asia Minor that checked near to Ankara? Or some Greeks' dream about Constantine and Symirna? Or their huge amount of weapon buyings?
-Bulgaria : their exodus of Turk-Muslim citizens at 1990s?
-Georgia : no threat here.
-Armenia : their dream about "great Armenia" and lost lands? Their unwillingness of erasing constitution paragraphs that demands on Turkish lands? Or their continuing invasion on %20 of Azerbaijan lands. Their hate of Turks?
-Iran : Their dream about exporting "Islam Republic" to Turkey?
-Iraq : N.Iraqi Kurds who dream about a united Kurdistan. Also remeber that crazy Saddam and his army.
-Syria : Still shows Hatay in their maps as a part of Syria. Recent home of Öcalan.
- Cyprus : Guess which country passport Öcalan was carrying when he was caught.

Please remember these are the just Turkey's immediate neighbors. There are others like Russia who demanded Kars and unrestricted access from straits back 1950s.

Then, tell me Turkey is in very peaceful spot of world and does not need huge military readiness.

Quoting white-wolf:

I think "my two cents" is an idiom that means "here my thoughts about subject" that used in English writings

Quoting ciko:

good answer alpha you are being like femme lately well done..go on go on

Quoting femme_fatal:

it must be that very well known turkish politeness to call someone nothing!

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting femme_fatal:

Quoting white-wolf:

I think 'my two cents' is an idiom that means 'here my thoughts about subject' that used in English writings