Now, “post-abortion syndrome” is bullshit — in women and men. That isn’t to say that some women don’t experience feelings of sadness, regret or depression after abortion — some do, and that should be recognized and honored. But it’s not a universal experience; the majority of women report “relief” as their chief post-abortion emotion. And more women experience depression after childbirth than after abortion.

But that’s not here nor there, since this article isn’t about women at all — it’s about men. Men whose partners terminated pregnancies, and who now want to tell other women that they can’t make the same choice.

(...)

I don’t doubt that there are some men out there who feel sad or depressed about the abortions their partners have had. Those feelings should be respected, and I hope the men do find ways to work through their feelings.

But this is about entitlement. It’s about men thinking that their feelings trump women’s most basic human rights. It’s about misogyny — and it’s no surprise that the men involved have long histories of it, well before their stints in the anti-choice movement.

Of course men have the right to political opinions. Of course they have the right to grieve, and to define their own experiences. But they don’t get to use their feelings as justification to curb my rights. Because at the end of the day, their co-opting of women’s actual experiences isn’t being used for healing; it’s being used as a tool to promote forced pregnancy. And that, no matter how you slice it, is a tool of oppression.

Abortion: It’s All About Teh Men

Interesting topic Catwoman and I guess this article is referring universally? Or just in the USA?

Where has the research been done?

Between a married couple, the decision of abortion should be a joint one, based on circumstance or medical reasons. It takes two people to begin a child and that child will belong to both partners. In my opinion the circumstances change if the couple are not married, but still it should be a joint decision if the relationship is solid, and more or less based on the same reasons as being married. Now when it comes down to a more casual relationship, it should be the woman’s choice. But the trouble with some societies today, abortion is being used as a form of contraception and there are girls have several abortions but no sad, forlorn man behind them. The have done it by themselves.

If this article is talking about political stance on abortion or that of religion, then I agree, that abortion should be a personal choice not one of policy makers or religious figures (and yes, generally men who really don’t have a clue). At the same time, there should be rules and laws on abortion and these should be set by medical practitioners with sound medical evidence to back up the policies. Abortion should not be seen as an easy option, but I have firm beliefs that it should be justified by either strong economic or medical reasons.

“Of course men have the right to political opinions. Of course they have the right to grieve, and to define their own experiences. But they don’t get to use their feelings as justification to curb my rights. Because at the end of the day, their co-opting of women’s actual experiences isn’t being used for healing; it’s being used as a tool to promote forced pregnancy. And that, no matter how you slice it, is a tool of oppression.”

This second part of this statement bothers me, in as much as this woman appears to be advocating abortion as a form of contraception. Why should her rights be curbed, what about the rights of the unborn child that she has chosen to conceive? No-one is forced to get pregnant; there are plenty of methods to stop unwanted pregnancies. I don’t see this as oppression but surely it comes down to responsibility, if in a relationship then a joint responsibility, but as for casual sex, then the individuals responsibility, not only to prevent unwanted pregnancies but also to avoid sexually transmitted diseases.

“But that’s not here nor there, since this article isn’t about women at all — it’s about men. Men whose partners terminated pregnancies, and who now want to tell other women that they can’t make the same choice.”

Where is the evidence to back up this statement? Who are these people? I mean what is the profession?

I pretty much agree with Libra here. This site you led us too seems more like an anti-men site more than a femminist site...isn't there a difference between being a femminist wanting equal rights for men and women, and just hating men?

Congratulations Catwoman. I see you have managed to initiate two discussions on one thread.

I will only address the title of the thread, “Abortion is not a forbidden topic, is it . . .?”

I think you already know the answer to the question and as such I question your motives for posting the thread. I know the content is of great interest to you, but you know that it does not have a place on this particular site. This site is related to Turkey and, at the very least, your post should have mentioned something about the subject in the context of Turkish Culture/politics. But then, political discussion is also not supposed to be a topic for discussion on this site either (although we are all guilty of getting dragged into it at some time or other).

If I understand the intentions of the site owners/moderators correctly, the “General/Off Topic” Forum still has to relate to Turkey in some way.
There are many sites out there in cyberspace, where you can discuss such a topic and , if you can’t find one to your liking, then perhaps you can design one. But I somehow think that posting such a question on an appropriate site would not give you the same amount of pleasure as I suspect your motives are to begin a political and’or religious war of words on this site. You know in your own mind exactly the people who will respond to you and how they might respond. That’s a shame, because the subject of abortion is an extremely serious one and should not be used to perpetuate the current climate on this Turkish Class site.

Of course you have the right to reply to me but you have no argument, as far as I am concerned, with the rules of the site so I shall not be participating in this thread any further. I have said all I want to say.

Contratulations Peace Train on the most pompous, misinformed, self-rightous post ever!

Though abortion should be done by the consent of both spouses, I think it is a woman's right to have the final word on it since pregnancy is ultimately a condition of the female body. All other consequences affecting males are both indirect and terminable. Nevertheless, the bond between a mother and her child is virtually ever lasting.

Abortion is a very difficult decision for men too. Nevertheless, the impact it may have on a female is both much more sophisticated and is graver.

I hate to be a thread spoiler, but has anyone concidered that neither the woman or the man have the right to decide whether a child lives or dies. You are casually speaking of the blantant disregard for the sanctity of human life. Who has more of a right to end a human life?

I have spent a lot of time working on the other side of this issue (Pro Life) and you are wrong if you think many women don't regret it and that it is a big problem. It seems the woman in the famous Roe V. Wade case does herself. I don't have any fancy statistics to to back me up but I have known many women personally who deeply regret their decision. That's not to say that a vast majority have an abortion and then feel releaved but you shouldn't discount the ones who do as a small statistic.

We are talking about abortion not murdering fully grown babies. There are certain legal limits determined together with scientists. Accordingly, abortion does become illegal after a certain number of weeks required for the neural development of the fetus.

Everyday we lose millions of cells or tissues. If I were to have a child everytime I have sex with a woman, even my own modest contribution to the Earth's human population could be enermous. Transformation from life to death and vice versa is perpetual. There is no hint in nature that tells us we should multiply as much as we can. On the contrary, there are very well designed population control mechanisms in nature. Why can't one of these mechanisms be our own intelligence?

P.S. I should have used the past tense when referring to all the women that I ....

laughing at Vineyards qualification of statement...thats all

I am not entering this battle...

In Quran, the development of the fetus is described as follows in Surahs 22-23-24 and 32.
"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."
"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."
"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."
"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh."
"Then We developed out of it another creature."
"And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."
"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."
"And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."

This statement: "then we developed out of it another creature" is quite interesting, in my opinion, The Quran considers man's development in the uterus in two stages e.g a transition from subhuman into human form.

P.S. I don't consider myself light-hearted just because I might support my partner if she decides in favour of an abortion within medically and ethically proper periods. This is a legal right on my part and I don't need anyone to show me how to use my legal rights.

To some being able to give birth to a child is a privilege on its own. It is just a matter of how you see things.

I have male friends who think badly of women saying they are self-centered, aloof creatures who think of themselves all the time. They would marry a man for his money or power and then try to use his power to her advantage.

Just like above opinion, yours is a point of view. Although I essentially agree with you about leaving the decision about abortion to women, I don't agree that being a male is an all advantageous thing.

For example, in my country, you don't have to risk your lives to defend your country chasing terrorists at minus 30 degrees on tops of mountains. Work life can be very demanding for a male. Most males are supposed to earn the bread money for their families. They must always be strong, this need alone causes males to abondon some of the subtler aspects of their personalities. Luckily for women, despite all those difficulties, there are still romantic males who write poems for their ladies or bring them flowers after having spent a strenuous day and those who honestly dedicate their lives to their wives.

Society is chaos, there are indeed some good things happening in that chaos too.

I agree with you Vineyards. However, the main privilage that males have is that THEY run the society, they dominate virtually all areas of life. Just because they're male. Males are taken more seriously, are encouraged to be more independent and successful and aren't killed for having sex before marriage... (to name a few).
But I agree that patriarchy isn't fair, it also hurts men.

From where I stand I don't seem to enjoy that power myself. I leave most important decisions to my wife. She decides which room will be mine, what color the walls will be, where we are going on vacation this year and when she wants to invite her large group of female friends (in which case I am expected to leave the house.) We both work and have our seperate budgets and while my money has to be spent the way she wants, I have no control over hers. As you see, sexism does not enter my household all that much.

An impala in the savannah is supposed to co-exist with lions and other predetors. An impala has no chance to complain of its world. It happily lives and tries to remain in one piece. We cannot change the world by complaining of it. This world will be closer to what we may call ideal someday. Until that time, fighting goes on in all spheres of life. This fight is hardly a fight of the sexes, there are more profound calamities like ignorance, illiteracy, barbarism etc.

I respect your views Elisabeth and can see your point of view very well. I have mixed feelings about this subject - if you ban abortion it will be forced into back streets and women will die again.

In my opinion BOTH men and women should start being far more responsible about contraception. There is REALLY NO EXCUSE for unplanned pregnancy...NONE.

Out of interest, what is Pro-Life's view about the morning-after pill?

AEnigma said: "if you ban abortion it will be forced into back streets and women will die again."

For sure, just who's life is it who is being protected, the one who is already here, or the one on the way?

AEnigma said: Out of interest, what is Pro-Life's view about the morning-after pill?

I'm pretty sure the morning-after pill is a no no for the Pro-Life group.

AEnigma said: "In my opinion BOTH men and women should start being far more responsible about contraception. There is REALLY NO EXCUSE for unplanned pregnancy...NONE."

That would be nice if it were so simple. The reality is birth control methods for sexually active persons do sometimes fail. There are methods that give a high rate of efficiency, but none of them are totaly fail proof.

We need more education on the subject, and more research on the matter.

The ACTUAL facts are that one THIRD of women seeking abortion are married. This figure is for the west - the percentage is higher in the east.

your word was abstinence though. this is a very definitive word...

alameda, I already said these are MY opinions.

I believe sex something to be between couples, whether they are in a strong commitment, a marriage or a one-night-stand. These are all personal choices, and the fact that I think 'no sex before marriage' is non-sense, doesnt mean I promote one-night-stands either. Everybody lives according to their own standards, and that is also how you find your partner in bed (leaving rape and abuse out). Sexual feelings emerge around the age of 15, and its perfectly healthy and normal for young adults to have their first sexual experiences at the age of 17 (basing these numbers according to Dutch society). I think that as long as you think you are old enough to have sex, you should be responsible enough to protect unwanted pregnancies. There are lots of ways to avoid them, most of them perfectly safe. I believe the morning-after pill to be the only option in case of a torn condom or a rape. Not because I am against the use of morning-after-pills, but I am against irresponsibility on matters that involve life, especially when it is a life that will bind 3 people with eachother for the rest of their lives.

I have double feelings about abortion, but can think of scenarios that it could be prefered (eg. the risk of the mother-to-be's life, as mentioned before) and find it short-sighted to just 'degrade' it to 'murder'.

However, after reading some arguements pro-adoption, I have to admit that that option never came to my mind. I have always believed that, if the parents (or one of them) dont think he/she can offer a good home and a future for the baby (either financially or emotionally, things that have to be stable in a relatinship before starting a family), abortion seems the sollution. But adoption.. You got me all thinking on this topic again


To speak for myself, I for myself dont see abortion as an opiton, if I would, unplanned, get pregnant. Maybe I could not offer the child the future that I could after graduating and making money, but I know I have to offer enough to bring it to life. And I think that is what matters.

I'm really surprised to hear some of these opinions because I thought that most people were pro-choice nowadays. But this is interesting. Women who are pro-life, as it is called, are very brave in my eyes but don't you think that every woman should have the choice to decide what is best in her specific case? This question is mainly directed to those of you who feel very strongly about (women's) rights and conditions in general.

I agree with you Aenigma but I'm asking because in my head forbidding abortion by law is a restriction and thus violation of a woman's rights.

If we all decide that abortion should be/stay legal, there is no point in setting a limit. It then means that we agree it is an option worth using sometimes, and in that case a limit cant be set..

The reason I would never want an abortion is the harm it could bring to your body, that it could even take away your ability to ever get children. But that is just a personal thought on the matter.

While I respect the views of the pro-life side of this debate, my belief is that abortion is a personal and private matter. A choice that ultimately, only the woman can make. As I think everyone has stated, abortion is NOT a form of birth control, however, a woman’s right to decide what is right for her over-rides a fetus’ right to be born.

What is proposed for a woman who has an abortion in a world where abortion is outlawed? Jail time? Forced tubal ligation? Death by stoning? And what of the man who father’s untold numbers of children with these women? Should they be forced to have vasectomies or chemical castration?

I think one major distinction between pro-life and pro-choice groups is that the many pro-lifers seem to want to force all women to conform to THEIR beliefs and do not seem to respect the fact that not every holds those same beliefs.
Has anyone here ever heard of the pro-choice movement trying to pass laws that force women to have abortions?

Most disturbing to me is seeing some of the tactics pro-lifers have used. They can be abhorrent! I’m sure we have all seen the pictures or new accounts of some very ardent pro-lifers harassing young women who are trying to enter abortion clinics. And how many doctor’s and nurses who work in these clinics have been murdered in the name of the pro-life movement? The ultimate hypocrisy!!

Here are some questions to those interested:

- Do you think the people around the world live according to the teachings of the prophets of their particular religions?

- Have been able to cure rape, incest, sexual discrimination?

- Are we affluent enough to have as many children as we want?

- What do you think about the starving people in Africa.

If you are unable to answer above question with a "Yes" then you are not entitled to pushing your bright ideas about how women should give birth to a child everytime they become pregnant.

Here is the link between the starving people in Africa and pro-life stance. If you want to save lives all that much look at this poor continent, there are lots of miseries there; people lose their lives because they can't afford basic necessities such as medicine, food etc.

If I invited people to join a fund raising campaign to help some people out there, how many people would join? Would you?

If people are so concerned about life, then they should go to africa and get their hands dirty to undo the damage that they cause instead of preaching about what is allowed and what is not, from their comfortable western homes. They make decisions about issues that have little impact on their own lifes, but do a lot of damage to others and than as an act of good will, they will start charity. Please, don't harm and don't help, ok?

Yes, there is corruption but I am sure there are decent organizations as well. Corruption being used as an excuse to stay away from charity is a very annoying thing.

i dont think i would ever get bored of doing THAT ...even after 50 years

Boys boys - there is no trick in never getting bored of it -the trick is to never get bored of it with ONE person for 50 years

aaaaaaahhhh clever girl!! yeah we boys always think of doing that and we lose the point


but actually... when you say thats the ONE you dont get bored of anything you do with that ONE...
so utopic?? naaahh...

Yes very cute Sera, but we were talking about SEX dimi?

...there was a survey in the UK recently that revealed that 60% of married women and (I think) 51% of married men would leave their partner if they could be assured of a good financial future.

Reasons for staying married were finances, children and uncertainty of being alone!

Such romance!

For Sera:-

Even Wikipedia acknowledge this fact!

"The frequency of sexual intercourse might range from zero (sexual abstinence) to 15 or 20 times a week.[1] The average frequency of sexual intercourse for married couples is 2 to 3 times a week. However, recent evidence shows that 43% of married couples have sex a few times a month"

... interesting article in the Times about Wikipedia which explodes the myths of it's inaccuracy

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/magnus_linklater/article3193083.ece?openComment=true

(the link is for Alameda )

I promise I won't click on the link...