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The lack of powerful liberal Muslim voices
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| 60. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 07:23 am |
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Quoting KeithL: Quoting catwoman: There is no doubt that sensationalistic media producing for dumb masses is skewing the picture, BUT, alameda, liberal muslims are a rarity and that's not a media truth, that's reality. I am looking around and I don't see many of them. With all the crazy stuff going on in europe and around the world, we should know about those liberals if they were there. But none of them are protesting to all the atrocities commited against humanity that's happening even in their own circles. |
its like 60's and 70's TV...all the criminals were black and hispanic. All the good guys were white. I have found today's Archie Bunker and he is here at TC carrying a purse... |
Alf Garnett lives! Nice one Keith. I remember the British version.
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| 61. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:05 pm |
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Canli.
In Qur'an, set of the rules are to obey not to interpret..You can not pick some of them and say 'I will do this', but I wont that..
Do we agree with that? I think you answer will be clearly yes..
Assuming that the answer is yes.
Lets pick up some of the suras:
sura 5:33 clearly indicates that :
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.
-Will you accept above? (you have to, because you cant say NO)
sura 5:38
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
it is not reccomendation..it is a clear order. is it not?
-Are you saying that you are not accepting above? (forget stealing bread here, assume that a robbery on the street with a knife, for money to buy drugs)
-Will you NOT chop the hand? (well you have to )
sura 4:003
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
-will you NOT object if your man comes to you and says that he will marry again? (it is in Qur'an..is it not?)
-If you really think that it is just and fair, how can you NOT show me a sura that women can have 4 husbands then?
-Dont you think above is clearly undermines the very basics of equality of women and men?
sura 4:011
Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah
- are you saying that you will follow above and you will discriminate between sons and daugthters?
- Is that not a clear discrimination?
sura 4:015
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.
-approved by you?
Do you want me to continue?
Because I am bored with this righ now.
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| 62. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:31 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom:
Canli.
In Qur'an, set of the rules are to obey not to interpret..You can not pick some of them and say 'I will do this', but I wont that..
Do we agree with that? I think you answer will be clearly yes..
Assuming that the answer is yes.
Lets pick up some of the suras:
sura 5:33 clearly indicates that :
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.
-Will you accept above? (you have to, because you cant say NO)
sura 5:38
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
it is not reccomendation..it is a clear order. is it not?
-Are you saying that you are not accepting above? (forget stealing bread here, assume that a robbery on the street with a knife, for money to buy drugs)
-Will you NOT chop the hand? (well you have to )
sura 4:003
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
-will you NOT object if your man comes to you and says that he will marry again? (it is in Qur'an..is it not?)
-If you really think that it is just and fair, how can you NOT show me a sura that women can have 4 husbands then?
-Dont you think above is clearly undermines the very basics of equality of women and men?
sura 4:011
Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah
- are you saying that you will follow above and you will discriminate between sons and daugthters?
- Is that not a clear discrimination?
sura 4:015
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.
-approved by you?
Do you want me to continue?
Because I am bored with this righ now.
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handsom,if you please provide the name of Sura at first one beside the number of ayat
So i can know in which contest where they and be able to answer
As for others,actually we talked about this before and i've answered you...
İf my man come and said he want to marry another ''Qur'an says he MUST tell before he do'' then its better for me than to find out he is CHEATİNG at me without i know,
At least i will have the chance to kick him off if i choose too
Muslim doing this by marriage,others doing it WİTHOUT marrige
İ believe its a MAN thing to cheat then,is it ?!!!
As for heritage,as i told you before,in İslam its man's duty to support his sister,if she is not married,if she was married then divorced
Her brother MUST support her,starting from accommodation,food,clothes...EVERYTHİNG
and she doesnt have to spend a penny from her heritage also
Even her brother is married and has a familly,it is STİLL his responsibility,so women dont have troubles facing life
so yes,i believe its fair that he inherit double what she does.
As for women have more than 1 husband,i believe it will be a MESS in knowing who is the son of who,and you can see that is happening in the west,so i dont need to answer this.
For other question,i will reply later,just provide the Sura name for me please...
Ps: you are right,i got very much bored too ...İslam's is MUSLİMS religion and we will practice it the way it is ,we dont ask anyone to be Muslims if the dont like,and CERTAİNALY we wont be RETAUGHT about our religion from non Muslims !
İts not even logic,is it ?
İ mean,would i go and teach christians how to be good christians ?!
Nonsense !
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| 63. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:54 pm |
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Well.
About that particular islamic school, I might be wrong But there were some other examples like 'in East Sussex a school owned by the Jemeah Islamiyah' I am sure you have heard of that..
You can consider yourself an idependant woman and MATRIARCH. It is you, describing yourself.
I have nothing to say.
But trust me, you would not be like that in a country where real sheria ruled.
So, not me, it is better you watch out.
Canli cleary says that headscarf is a must in Qur'an.
But I agree with you, it is, originally, a historical phenomenon.
But it is better for you if you read the necessary suras and make your mind up if you are going to cover your hair or not..
Allah will judge you according to that.
I mentioned before, Islam in Turkey is milder version. (Although it is the fact that, with current government, they are trying to change it to a more extreme one.)
Turkey have lived with secularism for a long time..
So the women you see in turkey is result of secularism and result of NOT OBEYING some of the islamic rules.
It is not that islam gives them right to be as they are..
And yes..you definetely speak too much..
I would not mind you write long posts if they were not full of goody-goody and asking for 'quote me please'.
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| 64. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 02:05 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
For other question,i will reply later,just provide the Sura name for me please...
Ps: you are right,i got very much bored too ...İslam's is MUSLİMS religion and we will practice it the way it is ,we dont ask anyone to be Muslims if the dont like,and CERTAİNALY we wont be RETAUGHT about our religion from non Muslims !
İts not even logic,is it ?
İ mean,would i go and teach christians how to be good christians ?!
Nonsense ! |
4 is al-Nisa
5 is al-Maida
About Islam and critising Islam.
personally, I am not trying to teach anything to anybody.
I am in this discussion because of my country, my country's women, my (female) friends , my sister/mother etc..And of course for political correctness.
I am in it because, I believe, it is a huge obsticle for my country and waste of time and resources..
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| 65. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 03:57 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom:
Well.
About that particular islamic school, I might be wrong But there were some other examples like 'in East Sussex a school owned by the Jemeah Islamiyah' I am sure you have heard of that..
You can consider yourself an idependant woman and MATRIARCH. It is you, describing yourself.
I have nothing to say.
But trust me, you would not be like that in a country where real sheria ruled.
So, not me, it is better you watch out.
Canli cleary says that headscarf is a must in Qur'an.
But I agree with you, it is, originally, a historical phenomenon.
But it is better for you if you read the necessary suras and make your mind up if you are going to cover your hair or not..
Allah will judge you according to that.
I mentioned before, Islam in Turkey is milder version. (Although it is the fact that, with current government, they are trying to change it to a more extreme one.)
Turkey have lived with secularism for a long time..
So the women you see in turkey is result of secularism and result of NOT OBEYING some of the islamic rules.
It is not that islam gives them right to be as they are..
And yes..you definetely speak too much..
I would not mind you write long posts if they were not full of goody-goody and asking for 'quote me please'. |
Handsom
I am not a goody goody but you are entitled to think what you like of me. It is a risk I take every time I enter the TC site.
You can easily bypass my words.
Like everyone else that comes to this site and posts an opinion, of course I want some one to read it, quote it and comment on it (in whatever way they see fit). I am not looking for people to agree with me all the time, I accept diversity of thought. So please, keep reading me and respond to me as I learn many things from you, about Turkish politics and about you.
The matriarch comment was very tongue in cheek handsom.
You say:
“Canli clearly says that headscarf is a must in Qur'an.
But I agree with you, it is, originally, a historical phenomenon.
But it is better for you if you read the necessary suras and make your mind up if you are going to cover your hair or not...
Allah will judge you according to that.â€
I have made my decision and I agree with you I will be judged accordingly, by Allah and nobody else. I have commented on this issue of judgement before. The extent of God Consciousness is a matter between the individual and God. I am not perfect. Nobody is perfect. There are two angels handsom. Qur’an refers to God as an acceptor of repentance and a dispenser of grace. I try the best I can and keep faith and learn from my mistakes.
I was brought up a Christian, but changed my faith. I suppose, if I put my mind to it I could spend my time on this site picking holes in Christian beliefs and finding examples of extremism/fanaticism/misogyny. Why would I want to do that?
I could also spend my time being negative about the atheist and agnostic view, but, again, why would I want to subject seemingly respectable people on this site to such criticism? It is their business.
Many people on this site probably don’t divulge their religious persuasion. It is their choice. Those that do nail their colours to the mast risk criticism, again their choice.
You say about the present Government in Turkey:
“(Although it is the fact that, with current government, they are trying to change it to a more extreme one.)â€
That is not a fact, it is an opinion.
For every argument “for†there is usually an argument “againstâ€.
If I wished I could say to you, don’t only think of Turkish women who don’t want the scarf, think also of your fellow country women who DO want it. Giving women the choice is giving them freedom. Don’t assume that every woman in Turkey, who wishes to wear the scarf, is weak and ruled by some man. I would say that is patronising. Oops, there, I said it.
I have already stated my opinion on this site, about oppression of women (not only in Islam) and so I am not going to detail it. I don’ t agree with oppression full stop. Of course you know what Martin Luther King fought for. Of course you know what Nelson Mandela fought for. Of course you know why the world shunned South Africa , in business and the sporting arena etc. Of course you know about Ghandi’s work on the civil rights movement in South Africa. What about civil rights in China? What about their dying rooms? Where is the voice for oppressed children on this site? What about the rights of people with physical and mental disabilities? There are so many topics about oppression to choose from.
I hope my “goody-goody†crown is not dazzling your eyes too much, I want you to be fit enough to read my long posts. 
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| 66. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 05:46 pm |
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sura 5:33 clearly indicates that :
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed OR crucified, OR have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, OR will be expelled out of the land.
And rest of it,
''that tho they be shamless in earth,and face great punishment in other life''
Rest of the ayat ,
5:34
''Except those who regret it before you condemn them,so know that ALLAH is forgiving and merciful''
So,actually ALLAH gave 4 choices for the ruler to condemn such people,and last one is forgivness if they regret it
Enemies for ALLAH and his messenger means not just enemy of religion,they are the enemies of country ,such as traitor
Those people harm the country,the people also
And i guess on the time when you were establishing your secular republic back in 30th of the 19th you were punishing the enemies of republic by worse than this
Even till now,no one allowed to SPEAK against it or else will be threatened to prison
So,i believe yes,i aprove of what ALLAH said,at least much more merciful !
As for
sura 5:38
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
5:39
''Who regret it after his unjustice 'his stealing'and fixed it,so ALLAH forgive him,that ALLAH forgiving and merciful''
So,it actually says,those who steal,they will be punished of cutting of their hands,unless if the regret it,and give back what they have stolen,so they will be forgiven and ALLAH will forgive them also and their hands wont be chopped.
So,i believe,i agree with that too,even we dont apply it also in my country
You see,by such punishment,there wont be men on the street walking arround with knifes to steal from people..
Because they will be afraid if they are cought,their hand will be chopped
They wont be going to prison for few monthes or few years and then come out,hating the society more and more for taking away their freedom and back to stealing and drugs and what so ever,because also society wont accept them,even they really became good people
Once they have been to jail...then its over...they are condemned by it .
What im talking about is a reality happening in every country,and mine also...
We also have stealing rate,killing rate ..ect
But even that i dont agree with their ways in everything,but must stat that at Saudi Arabia,they dont have this,and also they dont have people's having their hands chopped everyday
The stealing rate there is minor.
So whether i like it or not,those are facts happening in our countries and in their country.
As for this,
Quoting thehandsom:
About Islam and critising Islam.
personally, I am not trying to teach anything to anybody.
I am in this discussion because of my country, my country's women, my (female) friends , my sister/mother etc..And of course for political correctness.
I am in it because, I believe, it is a huge obsticle for my country and waste of time and resources.. |
Actually İslam in not a religion made just for your country,so you can take it to the tailor and adjust it the way it suits you.
İts a religion with set rules,you cannt change its rules as you like,
Surely you can follow them or not,its your own choice
But,you want to change its rules,so its suite you the way you like,so whatever you do,you feel you are following its rules ?!
Have you ever heared of any religion doing this ?
Maybe what suite you,wont suite me,or wont suite others,or what suits me wont suits you
For example,in my opinion at divorce the only one who take care of the childern these days are women,so,it would be more suitable to adjust divorce rules and to give mothers the right to bring up children uless they express their desire to give it to the father.
and mean while to oblige the father to pay 2/3 of his income to her as support to the children 'you know schools,UNİ and so,needs lots of money'' and to increase it with a suitabe percentage every year to face the economic Inflation till they reach the age of 21
This would be applicable,and fair to me,is it to you ?!
so would everyone make his own version of the religion and call it also İslam and follow it ?!!!
You know drinking alcohol is forbidden in İslam,but still many men in your country drink rakı,yes ?
You didnt change Qur'an verses to do this,did you ?!
And alos Que'an verses didnt stop you from making your own choice in drinking it,did it ?!
So why not your sister,your mother,your country's women, your (female) friends dont do this also,and take what they want from İslam,follow it and dont follow what it doesnt suit them ?!
Why dont them has the right to choose what to do as you 'men' did ?
İt would be their personal choice and they bear its burden,but STİLL their choice as it was yours.
But you want to change İslam so,what ever you do,or choose will be in the category of following İslam rules ?!
Being a bleiever is not easy handsom,not just in İslam,but in any religion,it come with a price,and that price is to FOLLOW that religion rules,then you can be a believer.
Or simply just pick another one that suits you more,or have your own believes,but you cant call them İslam,or Christianity which they are not.
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| 67. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 07:17 pm |
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Just curious handsom,why did you quote the verses with the punishment and left the merciful ones,even they come right after them and completing the meaning of the verses which you have posted ?!
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| 68. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 07:27 pm |
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Handsom, do you really have such a low opinion of women that you underestimate Canli? You didn't think she would do her research and answer your shallow attempts at criticism?
tut tut
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| 69. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:07 pm |
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Canli, You are agreeing with:
-The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger..they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off...*
-As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. (assuming that they did not regret..)
(I wished, you did not skip about having multiple wifes, women-men equality questions though  -But I assume, there is no logical answer there..is there ? )
..
Well..
Thanks for agreeing above..well done..
And you proved my point here (actually many points as well):
I dont want anybody's head is chopped OFF, because he/she is considered attacking Allah.
It is against ALL my beliefs in this world. (all of them. freedom of speech, expressing opinions and KILLING PEOPLE BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY BELIEVE..etc etc)
You are also proved that Islam needs reforms.
You like it or not.
(No wonder why Christianity is expanding more than islam!!!)
When my daughter asks me about islam, how do you want me to tell her what you agreed above? eh?
How can I tell her, islam is a religion that heads might be chopped off and the limbs might be cut off?
Note: I dont think, me not giving the following suras, would change the concept . would it?
Lets dont go into word games here.
* Just remembered: Assuming that you supported 'zarqavi', in iraq, cutting the heads infront of the cameras. He did everything according to the book!!
YES?
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| 70. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:14 pm |
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Quoting peace train: Handsom, do you really have such a low opinion of women that you underestimate Canli? You didn't think she would do her research and answer your shallow attempts at criticism?
tut tut |
this is how any attempt of trying to converse with peace train end! even Canli is more civilized in a discussion (I say "even" because I know that she's a devout muslim).
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