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The lack of powerful liberal Muslim voices
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| 1. |
05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:00 pm |
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Islam is just as compatible with democracy as any other religion. But if there is to be a modern Islam in Germany, support must be offered to liberal Muslims. A commentary Lale Akgün:
Lale Akgün: "What we need is an Islam which provides answers to the questions of here and now, an Islam which is measured against European and German laws"
| It is true that the Muslim intellectual landscape in Germany is somewhat dry – a sandy desert in which there is little to be found except for the stony outcrops of the Muslim religious associations. Islam in Germany and the rest of the world has a considerable image problem, and not just since the terror attacks in New York.
And it is true: we need more than ever here voices which speak for a open-minded, liberal and contemporary Islam, an Islam which gives answers to the questions provoked by our lives here in Germany. European Islam needs a reformation.
The lack of powerful liberal Muslim voices
But critics of Islam are wrong when they claim that Islam and democracy are fundamentally incompatible. It is frustrating that, for some times now, these black-and-white thinkers have been enjoying such a positive reception in the public debate.
They evoke prejudices which we thought dead and gone, and they swim on a wave of fear that Germany will be taken over by foreigners. It is for this reason – but also because of the lack of powerful liberal Muslim voices in this country – that objective arguments have a tough time in the debate on Islam and democracy. So where does Islam stand today? Are Muslim really worse democrats?
Islam can be just as well or badly integrated with a democratic way of life as any other religion. There is a wide variety of Muslim tendencies from Morocco to Indonesia, and from the United States to Germany.
Turkey is democratic and Muslim, Saudi-Arabia is Muslim and undemocratic – generalisations won't do, so I'll restrict myself to Europe and Germany.
And here Islam is not up to date. What we need is an Islam which provides answers to the questions of here and now, an Islam which is independently organised, and which is measured against European and German laws – the same requirements as one would have of any other religion.
The conservative image of Islam in Germany
What we have instead is an Islam whose image in Germany is determined by the Muslim associations and their officials, who present conservative, sometimes fundamentalist positions and are dependent on authorities outside the county.
The largest Muslim association, DITIB, is financially and organisationally closely linked to "Diyanet", the religious authority of the Turkish state. It brings imams to Germany from Turkey. They seldom speak good German and they are rarely adequately aware of the way we live.
So how can these preachers help the Muslims who live here to deal with the problems they face, if they scarcely know anything about Germany? Other associations have close links to Saudi-Arabia or the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.
Both represent a kind of "stone-age Islam" which has no answers to the questions of Muslims living here. These Muslims are having to deal with both the good sides and the bad sides of a globalised world, and a society which is both German and European. We need strong voices which can provide answers which relate to life as it is lived.
No modern interpretation of the faith
But in Germany and Europe, Islam has not had the opportunity to develop a modern interpretation of the faith. There are still too few chairs of Islamic religious education, there is virtually no qualified teaching of Islam in schools and there are no imams being trained here.
The Muslim world itself can show us what the concept of an enlightened Islam could look like. At the University of Ankara, a young team is researching Muslim theology using historical-critical methods. In their view, the Suras of the Koran can only be understood in their historical context, and cannot be applied literally to the present day.
How the texts are applied to the present is a matter for the individual conscience. If one wants to do it properly, one has to call upon the Hadith, the traditions about the sayings of the Mohammed.
The Hadith contains explanations by the Prophet by which one can understand the ethical content of the Suras of the Koran and apply it to the present.
The "Ankara School"
Everyone is entitled to carry out such interpretation in this way. One requires a teacher only if one is unable to do it oneself. Of course, this approach to the Koran has not made its way into every last Turkish living room in Germany.
But that is exactly why we would be well advised to support those who present liberal views, instead of only ever shaking hands with those who represent the Islam of the past.
But one thing should not be forgotten. It is not enough only to support the liberal intellectual Muslim scene. We have urgently to cease to treat all those "John-Doe-Muslims", the large silent majority, who just want to live and work quietly in Germany, as if they too were all fundamentalists and reactionaries.
The opposite of integration
How should a Muslim feel when he is brushing his teeth in the morning, and hears on the radio that everyone who converts to Islam in future will be checked by the secret services? Anyone who is treated like that feels like an outsider and will escape back into his shell. That is the way to achieve the opposite of integration.
The aggressive criticism of Islam and the oft-repeated but still incorrect claim that democracy and Islam are like fire and water have little to do with the reality lived by real people in German villages and cities.
It is only by living together that it becomes clear that a Turkish doctor has more in common with a German doctor than with a Turkish construction worker.
The gulfs which divide our society run along issues like education, prosperity and the chance to make one's way. And it will only be when all people have the same chances to participate in society and to rise within it, that these gulfs will cease to exist.
A sense of belonging, which is so important in binding a society together, can only be developed on the basis of our common constitutional values. The philosopher Jürgen Habermas once used the term "constitutional patriotism" to describe this loyalty.
According to the constitution, every citizen, whether Muslim, Christian or atheist, has the same political, social and economic rights and duties as everybody else. That requires the acceptance of our secular constitution, according to which religion and state are separated and the state has a monopoly of power.
Within these limits set by the state, and under its protection, religions may do everything they wish to realise their potential to ensure peace and integration.
That is the position in a secular democracy from which religion will be able to grow and flourish and benefit humanity. And that too is the position in a secular democracy from which Islam will be able to grow and flourish and benefit humanity.
Lale Akgün was born in 1953 and is a member of the German parliament for the Social Democrats (SPD). She is on the parliamentary committee for European affairs and is the SPD parliamentary spokesperson on Islamic issues and deputy spokesperson on European policy.
Qantara.de
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| 2. |
05 Mar 2008 Wed 05:14 pm |
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i believe we all have to put off our nationality,religion,region shirts for to be more common and have to wear objectivism,science,mind and tolerance shirts for understand each other a bit more.nationality,beliefs,cultural differences sure social realities,but not easy to catch common critieries when we use this differences as a political weapons against each other,and not easy to explain a whole world with our subjectivites..So ''liberal Muslim'',''Christian Democrat'' ''democratical Budhist'' ''Social Atheist'' etc..not to much meaningfull terms for hug all humanity....
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| 3. |
05 Mar 2008 Wed 09:13 pm |
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Actually, I was very happy to find out that there is ONE liberal muslim voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Jbt0ktT8M
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| 4. |
05 Mar 2008 Wed 09:22 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Actually, I was very happy to find out that there is ONE liberal muslim voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Jbt0ktT8M |
Catwoman there are many, you don't look...."seek and ye will find"
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| 5. |
05 Mar 2008 Wed 09:26 pm |
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Quoting alameda: Quoting catwoman: Actually, I was very happy to find out that there is ONE liberal muslim voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Jbt0ktT8M |
Catwoman there are many, you don't look...."seek and ye will find" |
Yes, that's true. It's just that you don't really hear about them.. 
I love this guy - Ed Husain!  I wish all muslims were like him
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| 6. |
05 Mar 2008 Wed 09:36 pm |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHyzlILoiDY&feature=related
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| 7. |
05 Mar 2008 Wed 10:31 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting alameda: Quoting catwoman: Actually, I was very happy to find out that there is ONE liberal muslim voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Jbt0ktT8M |
Catwoman there are many, you don't look...."seek and ye will find" |
Yes, that's true. It's just that you don't really hear about them..
I love this guy - Ed Husain! I wish all muslims were like him |
That is a start, but you could search, instead of just accepting what is presented on a silver platter. Here is a start:
http://www.altmuslim.com/a
http://www.muslimwakeup.com/bb/index.php
The Issue of the Rights of Women in Muslim Communities
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| 8. |
05 Mar 2008 Wed 10:59 pm |
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Quoting alameda: That is a start, but you could search, instead of just accepting what is presented on a silver platter. |
Oh, thank you! 
Maybe that actually means something that we only hear about the bad guys!
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| 9. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 12:23 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Oh, thank you! Maybe that actually means something that we only hear about the bad guys! |
Quoting alameda: Yes, and most see only the only rocks and never the diamonds... |
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| 10. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 01:59 am |
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Quoting alameda: Quoting catwoman: Oh, thank you! Maybe that actually means something that we only hear about the bad guys! |
Yes, and most see only the only rocks and never the diamonds... |
Oh please! You're simply in denial of the truth.
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| 11. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:44 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting alameda: Quoting catwoman: Oh, thank you! Maybe that actually means something that we only hear about the bad guys! |
Yes, and most see only the only rocks and never the diamonds... |
Oh please! You're simply in denial of the truth. |
So you are telling me you think people like Rumi was not a diamond? Younis Emre was not a diamond? What culture and religion do you think they practiced?
Rumi
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| 12. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:47 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting alameda: Quoting catwoman: Oh, thank you! Maybe that actually means something that we only hear about the bad guys! |
Yes, and most see only the only rocks and never the diamonds... |
Oh please! You're simply in denial of the truth. |
Here....try to open your heart and mind.
http://www.twf.org/Library/Jihad.html
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| 13. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 02:52 am |
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Quoting alameda: So you are telling me you think people like Rumi was not a diamond? Younis Emre was not a diamond? What culture and religion do you think they practiced? |
Oh, yes, I exaggerated that there is only one liberal muslim voice. But I was talking mainly about the muslim response to the current issues of terrorism and human rights in muslim countries and in muslim communities.
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| 14. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 04:39 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting alameda: Quoting catwoman: Oh, thank you! Maybe that actually means something that we only hear about the bad guys! |
Yes, and most see only the only rocks and never the diamonds... |
Oh please! You're simply in denial of the truth. |
So, Cat, you are graduating from stating opinions to believing you alone know the truth.
Me thinks you are "insulting" Alameda's intelligence . . .tut tut 
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| 15. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 04:45 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Actually, I was very happy to find out that there is ONE liberal muslim voice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Jbt0ktT8M |
This guy is brilliant 
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| 16. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 05:02 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting alameda: So you are telling me you think people like Rumi was not a diamond? Younis Emre was not a diamond? What culture and religion do you think they practiced? |
Oh, yes, I exaggerated that there is only one liberal muslim voice. But I was talking mainly about the muslim response to the current issues of terrorism and human rights in muslim countries and in muslim communities. |
A couple of minutes on a search engine and there is a great deal of information out there.
www.heartsandminds.org/mideast/muslims.htm
www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
www.expressindia.com/latest-news/AlQaida-losing-supporta...
www.reformislam.org/news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/02/20/muslims-who-renounce...
Muslims against domestic violence
www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7368/muslimdv_sign.htm
imamjohari.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/muslims-working-again...
On several occasions Alameda has given this link:
http://www.muslimwakeup.com/bb/index.php
It seems to be a great site and well set out with links taking you straight to the issues you want to discuss. It is very well moderated too. It is an ideal site to visit if what you're looking for is a platform for religious deb ate.
This is the site's mission statement:
"Muslim WakeUp! seeks to bring together Muslims and non-Muslims in America and around the globe in efforts that celebrate cultural and spiritual diversity, tolerance, and understanding. Through online and offline media, events, and community activities, Muslim WakeUp! champions an interpretation of Islam that celebrates the Oneness of God and the Unity of God’s creation through the encouragement of the human creative spirit and the free exchange of ideas, in an atmosphere that is filled with compassion and free of intimidation, authoritarianism, and dogmatism. In all its activities, Muslim WakeUp! attempts to reflect a deep belief in justice and against all forms of oppression, bigotry, sexism, and racism. MWU prohibits the attacks against any religiously important figure of any religion."
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| 17. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 05:37 am |
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Quoting peace train: So, Cat, you are graduating from stating opinions to believing you alone know the truth.
Me thinks you are "insulting" Alameda's intelligence . . .tut tut |
me thinks you are writing useless posts to support your friends, doing exactly what you criticized 5 minutes ago and me thinks I shouldn't be responding to you.
tut tut 
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| 18. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 04:49 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: So, Cat, you are graduating from stating opinions to believing you alone know the truth.
Me thinks you are "insulting" Alameda's intelligence . . .tut tut |
me thinks I shouldn't be responding to you.
tut tut |
Finally! 
btw I am sorry you found the following information I posted "useless", it was posted for EVERYONE on this site, whatever their religious or political persuasion. It might also make your life as a moderator that much easier. I'm assuming you would like your moderation duties to become easier. Don't you?
*******!!!!!!!!!!!SANCTIMONY WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!*********
Cat Dear . . . I don't think you have noticed, but just about everyone on this site, who becomes embroiled in a political or religious discussion, ends up accusing/criticising another member of/for doing something they themselves do!!! It's called hypocracy . . . That's what we all seem to do. There's a heap load of irony too.
This site is splattered with childish tit for tat remarks. Yes, I include myself as not to do so would be so very foolish. And you know what they say "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" (I'm referring to the childish remarks brigade here ) .This is not a new phenomenon on this site.
I've had (as we all have) many accusations thrown at me . . . what I have tried very hard to avoid is such phrases as:
"who asked you . . . . . ?"
"Who do you think you are . . . .?"
"How ........that is coming from you .....
"Don't lecture me . . . . ."
"That's rich . . . .. "
But that's my choice and because I don't use them doesn't mean nobody is allowed to. I don't think I've ever complained about what has been said about me personally but I have to admit I do tend to jump to the defence of others.
Like anyone else, I may get a little down about the atmosphere on the site at times, and feel the desire to leave. However, what makes me stay is the realisation that we do all feel that at times and I contribute, just as much as anyone else, to that atmosphere, so I plod on, like we all do.
This is one reason why I haven't commented about AEnigma's or Femme's choice to leave the site for a while. I haven't made any sarcastic comments or entreated them to stay or stay away. Their choices are personal to them and they will decide what they wish to do. Whatever they decide it will be what is best for them. If they left because of the atmosphere on the site then I won't criticise because I can empathise. What would be the point in getting a laugh out of or mocking someone's sadness? Of course they may have totally different reasons, I don't know, it's their business.
We get ourselves embroiled in debate and it does get uncivilised at times, but we only have ourselves to blame. We choose to be here, we choose to enter the debates, we must deal with the fall out in our own way and accept that that is what everyone else is doing. It would be nice to have a bit more variety though.
Oh bloody hell . . .I think I got side tracked . . . shame on you Cat . . .provoking an acute attack of sanctimony . . . you are supposed to be a doctor . . .could it be a allergy I have do you think? Or some kind of phobia? I don't have a rash if that helps a diagnosis (btw this last bit is a friendly tease, not sarcasm) .
I just had a thought, perhaps we could help the moderators a little. This is my plan . . . . fun but serious ok?
So . . . anyone reading or participating in a thread . . .if you think it is getting out of hand . . .jump in and shout . . . shout . . . ok we need a code word so that everyone will know to stop the bun fight. How about "Fluffy Bunnies" or "Turkish Delight"? The code would need to be written into the rules so that all new members knew what was going on. I somehow don't think they would get the message if these phrases suddenly appeared during a conversation about masturbation . . .
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| 19. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 07:58 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting alameda: Quoting catwoman: Oh, thank you! Maybe that actually means something that we only hear about the bad guys! |
Yes, and most see only the only rocks and never the diamonds... |
Oh please! You're simply in denial of the truth. |
Well catwoman, we all have our talents and faults.
Treasures abound, but not many are able to recognize them. Most only follow the crowd to the treasure (and are often fooled by forgeries), but by then much of the treasure has been lost.
Would you recognize a rough diamond? How many would see the treasure in front of their eyes, not many I think.
"South Africa's diamond heritage stems from a pretty little pebble picked up on the bank of the Orange River in 1867, not far from Hopetown. Erasmus Jacobs, fifteen years old and the son of a poor labourer, took it home as a plaything. The stone was then given to a neighbouring farmer, Schalk van Niekerk, a casual collector of unusual stones. He in turn entrusted it to the trader John O'Reilly, who sent it (in an unsealed envelope!) to Dr. G. W. Atherstone, a Grahamstown physician and one of the few people in the Cape Colony who knew anything about minerals. The stone was judged a 'veritable diamond' of 21.25 carats and valued at £500. Once cut, the stone weighing 10.73 carats, was called The Eureka and is now kept at the Library of Parliament in Cape Town."
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| 20. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 08:10 pm |
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Quote: Would you recognize a rough diamond? |
 I'm still trying to find a liberal muslim here in Ohio..but no such luck..
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| 21. |
06 Mar 2008 Thu 10:05 pm |
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Quoting Roswitha: But if there is to be a modern Islam in Germany, support must be offered to liberal Muslims.
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This is the key right here.....LIBERAL MUSLIMS. Fortunately, I think their voices are getting a little louder.
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| 22. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 01:00 am |
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Quoting Elisabeth: Quoting Roswitha: But if there is to be a modern Islam in Germany, support must be offered to liberal Muslims.
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This is the key right here.....LIBERAL MUSLIMS. Fortunately, I think their voices are getting a little louder. |
Elisabeth, It's not that they haven't existed all the time, it's that they are being heard now. When I look at TV shows, Muslims are always portrayed in very negative ways.
If not negative, most often they are trivialized with overly exotic portrayals.
Most opinions are formed by representations from the Media who are indebted to their sponsors and Corporate Board of Directors, shareholders....it is a profit driven, not necessarily for the general publics best interests.
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| 23. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 01:57 am |
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There is no doubt that sensationalistic media producing for dumb masses is skewing the picture, BUT, alameda, liberal muslims are a rarity and that's not a media truth, that's reality. I am looking around and I don't see many of them. With all the crazy stuff going on in europe and around the world, we should know about those liberals if they were there. But none of them are protesting to all the atrocities commited against humanity that's happening even in their own circles.
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| 25. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 05:02 am |
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Lecture from adonis - much ado about nothing, if they don't agree with you, insult them!
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| 26. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 05:07 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Lecture from adonis - much ado about nothing, if they don't agree with you, insult them! |
flutters from a person who has taken very heavy proofs from clever peoples. 
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| 27. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 05:17 am |
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Quoting adonis: Quoting catwoman: Lecture from adonis - much ado about nothing, if they don't agree with you, insult them! |
flutters from a person who has taken very heavy proofs from clever peoples. |
mutters from a person who has not said one reasonable thing yet and who has not responded with an argument to an argument yet, only with insults! speaking of hypocricy, canim?
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| 28. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 11:53 am |
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I absolutely agree that this world needs loud liberal Muslim voices. Otherwise it is just the fundamentalists who make the bad press for all. I hope that with time this will change.
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| 29. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 01:20 pm |
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You just dont get it,the problem is not the lack of liberal muslims
There are many,but not heared.
There are many wrong things in the way West approaching muslims and İslam,
They use ways,or let me say wordings are not,and will NOT be accepted by any muslim.
Reforming İslam,changing verses of Qur'an...NONSENSE
There are verses is the bible that that least we can say is cruel
And they havent been changed...!
My point is...dig in İslam,dig in Quran itself,and get it by proves, that you can be liberal and also you can be a good Muslim
İ dont say to twist the meaning of the verses,nope,but to have wide understanding for them by what we are living today.
This actually happing too,many İmams qualified and reliable İmams is doing this
İmams that people can trust their knowledge of İslam.
ALLAH told us,HE brought this Qur'an for us to be suitable for all times,
And that is Qur'an miracle.
So yes,it indicate things happened in the past,events,problems and how to solve it in the past's circumstances
We can take the rule,and apply it in today circumstances and understanding...
İ dont say to change the rules 'haşa ALLAH' but to apply them within the spirit on the time we are living in.
Not standing where they were hundreds of years ago.
For example,many,many years ago,after Rasul SAV died by mmm 10 yrs maybe,there was a great,GREAT ruler,who was all Muslims ruler at that time
That man ,Ömer RA was one of Mohamed SAV friends who was always arround him and learing from him,whom Rasul ALLAH said about him ''Holly spirit would be sending verses from his tongue''indicating that what he says is right,and very much acceptable from ALLAH
Anyway,you know that there is rule in İslam to cut the hand of the one who steal
İn that time,Muslims were living in great poverty,they even couldnt find food to eat
So,he cancelled this penalty on those days
So İslam was and is open to flexibility
There was no,and will be NO imam like Ömer RA,and he had done this many many years ago.
There are İmamlar who is doing this today also,they dont leave İslam rules and showing people how to live with them also within the current time circumstances
Those imamlar should be heared and have louder voices.
But talking about reforming İslam ?!
FORGET İT !
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| 30. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 01:25 pm |
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Quoting Daydreamer: I absolutely agree that this world needs loud liberal Muslim voices. Otherwise it is just the fundamentalists who make the bad press for all. I hope that with time this will change. |
Agreed. And those loud liberal Muslim voices will need the trust and support of non muslims as well as muslims. Organizations made up of people from all walks of life need more prominence in order to get the message across to "Joe Public" and diminish the prejudices on both sides.
There are websites out there where Muslims condemn atrocities etc. I have posted them a few times in recent days. I didn't post them as proof alone. They aren't useful in a global sense, unless people actually visit them and interact rather than merely acknowledge their existence.
It's not enough for non Muslims to express their desire for more prominent liberal Muslims. Muslims and non Muslims, the ones we see every day in the streets, in this chat room, need to meet each other half way, stop the inquisitions. See the glass half full not half empty folks. Build something good. From little acorns . . .
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| 31. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 03:50 pm |
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It doesn't help when you wake up to the news and see that Muslim women at a University in New York is asking the administration to allow only women in the gym for certain hours during the day, based on their religion.
Why can't they blend in to society without having to make such issues... 
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| 32. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 11:46 pm |
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Quoting teaschip1: It doesn't help when you wake up to the news and see that Muslim women at a University in New York is asking the administration to allow only women in the gym for certain hours during the day, based on their religion.
Why can't they blend in to society without having to make such issues... |
Such a minor issue for the non muslim and such a good opportunity to show empathy and gain trust. There are much worse things to worry about in this world.
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| 33. |
07 Mar 2008 Fri 11:53 pm |
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Quoting teaschip1: It doesn't help when you wake up to the news and see that Muslim women at a University in New York is asking the administration to allow only women in the gym for certain hours during the day, based on their religion.
Why can't they blend in to society without having to make such issues... |
It wasn't that long ago a request of that sort would not have been needed in the USA. The integration of males and females in a single gym is a relativly new situation.
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| 34. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 12:11 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting adonis: Quoting catwoman: Lecture from adonis - much ado about nothing, if they don't agree with you, insult them! |
flutters from a person who has taken very heavy proofs from clever peoples. |
mutters from a person who has not said one reasonable thing yet and who has not responded with an argument to an argument yet, only with insults! speaking of hypocricy, canim? |
lamentations from a kitten. what a pity...
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| 35. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 12:39 am |
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Quoting peace train: Such a minor issue for the non muslim and such a good opportunity to show empathy and gain trust. There are much worse things to worry about in this world. |
We show empathy enough. Time for them to show some. Enough of demands!
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| 36. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:19 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: Such a minor issue for the non muslim and such a good opportunity to show empathy and gain trust. There are much worse things to worry about in this world. |
We show empathy enough. Time for them to show some. Enough of demands! |
Dear cat,reading your post made me think ...
What did the west do actually for us and you see its enough ?!
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| 37. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:29 am |
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Quoting CANLI: Dear cat,reading your post made me think ...
What did the west do actually for us and you see its enough ?! |
what did the west do for you.... when you're a muslim in the UK, for example, those idiots are even considering whether they should introduce sharia for you guys! what's the response of muslims? more hatred of the west!
how are you treated if you're a non-muslim in a muslim country? hatred. (for example: in saudi arabia, the true islamic state, preaching christianity is punishable by death! hahah)
do you need more examples?
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| 38. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:36 am |
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Quoting CANLI:
Reforming İslam,changing verses of Qur'an...NONSENSE
My point is...dig in İslam,dig in Quran itself,and get it by proves, that you can be liberal and also you can be a good Muslim
This actually happing too,many İmams qualified and reliable İmams is doing this
İmams that people can trust their knowledge of İslam.
ALLAH told us,HE brought this Qur'an for us to be suitable for all times,
And that is Qur'an miracle.
İ dont say to change the rules 'haşa ALLAH' but to apply them within the spirit on the time we are living in.
Not standing where they were hundreds of years ago.
For example,many,many years ago,after Rasul SAV died by mmm 10 yrs maybe,there was a great,GREAT ruler,who was all Muslims ruler at that time
Anyway,you know that there is rule in İslam to cut the hand of the one who steal
İn that time,Muslims were living in great poverty,they even couldnt find food to eat
So,he cancelled this penalty on those days
So İslam was and is open to flexibility
There are İmamlar who is doing this today also,they dont leave İslam rules and showing people how to live with them also within the current time circumstances
Those imamlar should be heared and have louder voices.
But talking about reforming İslam ?!
FORGET İT ! |
Canli
It is very interesting what you are saying above..
But, lets take only one verse..'cutting hand of the one who steals'
-Am I right to think that it is in Qouran itself which was sent by GOD?
-Are you saying that as a good muslim you will NOT follow what it says?
-If you are free 'to follow or not' on one verse, what about the others?
as an example:
-Can we say that 'women covering their hair' verse is not compatible with the current time?
About reforming Islam.
It is an absolute necessity.
It is not NONSENSE.
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| 39. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:46 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting CANLI: Dear cat,reading your post made me think ...
What did the west do actually for us and you see its enough ?! |
what did the west do for you.... when you're a muslim in the UK, for example, those idiots are even considering whether they should introduce sharia for you guys! what's the response of muslims? more hatred of the west!
how are you treated if you're a non-muslim in a muslim country? hatred. (for example: in saudi arabia, the true islamic state, preaching christianity is punishable by death! hahah)
do you need more examples? |
First of all, there are many who DO NOT consider Saudi Arabia a true Islamic state.
Another thing is.....for how long did England colonize Eastern countries, leeching riches out of those countries. How many treasures from the East are in British museums?
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| 40. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:54 am |
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Quoting alameda: First of all, there are many who DO NOT consider Saudi Arabia a true Islamic state.
Another thing is.....for how long did England colonize Eastern countries, leeching riches out of those countries. How many treasures from the East are in British museums? |
Is this your comment about the current muslim hatred of the west? And we're not talking about muslims in saudi arabia or egypt, we're talking about muslims who live in the west!
If saudi arabia is not a true islamic state, then why are you taking their money and building mosques and hateful islamic schools with it?
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| 41. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 02:03 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting CANLI: Dear cat,reading your post made me think ...
What did the west do actually for us and you see its enough ?! |
what did the west do for you.... when you're a muslim in the UK, for example, those idiots are even considering whether they should introduce sharia for you guys! what's the response of muslims? more hatred of the west!
how are you treated if you're a non-muslim in a muslim country? hatred. (for example: in saudi arabia, the true islamic state, preaching christianity is punishable by death! hahah)
do you need more examples? |
Actually,yes,i do
UK,doesnt consider this,it was merely a suggestion from The Archbishop of Canterbury
And his assistances rushed and explained,he didnt mean it this way
Maybe the man,as a religious man felt that Muslims in Uk cant practice their believes in a appropriate way and from respecting to freedom of people to practice their believes ''and you know to such a religous man that is important'' he came out with that suggestion ?!
Maybe,i dont know !
You been to the UK and you saw that Muslims there hate West ?
That wanst what i understood from AEnigma's posts in many occasions
Surely there are the goods and bads...ama are all bads ?!!!
Secondly,have you been to a Muslim country,and have you been treated with hate ?!
İ wont argue AGAİN,about Saudi Arabia and whether its is the true islamic state or not
But have you been to Saudi Arabia ?
Do you know how non-Muslims live there ?!
Like kings and queens !
And about preaching christianity ,you said when you be in a country you respect its law...
And that is İTS law...preach it where its allowed for you to do.
When British were living here in my country,we used to have law,courts only for foreigners other than ours.
So it actually happed in our country for YOUR favore!
And even now,Foreigners are well treated,there are churches,many too from all Christians branches ''they are many you know''
There are jewish temples.
We have one law...but there are one for Christians,and another one for Muslims in some certain things.
So yes,please,tell me more
What have the West done to us since we actually gained our freedom and tried to live together?!
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| 42. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 02:17 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: Such a minor issue for the non muslim and such a good opportunity to show empathy and gain trust. There are much worse things to worry about in this world. |
We show empathy enough. Time for them to show some. Enough of demands! |
It's not that you don't read the posts Cat. It's not that you can't understand what is being said Cat. Simply put, Cat, you don't WANT to do anything to change the status quo. You seem to like your thoughts, you seem to be in your comfort zone with those thoughts. You want Muslims to do everything. I'm sorry, but Muslims cannot do this on their own. I'm talking about all those Muslims (seek and you shall find) who denounce the atrocities . . .
Come on . . . let's get those reciprocal olive branches out
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| 43. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 02:26 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting CANLI: Dear cat,reading your post made me think ...
What did the west do actually for us and you see its enough ?! |
what did the west do for you.... when you're a muslim in the UK, for example, those idiots are even considering whether they should introduce sharia for you guys! what's the response of muslims? more hatred of the west!
how are you treated if you're a non-muslim in a muslim country? hatred. (for example: in saudi arabia, the true islamic state, preaching christianity is punishable by death! hahah)
do you need more examples? |
"idiots" - not nice and the Sharia issue was sensationalised in the press. You swallowed it and it sounds as though it got stuck in your throat judging from the way you are huffing and puffing.
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| 44. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 02:30 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Is this your comment about the current muslim hatred of the west? And we're not talking about muslims in saudi arabia or egypt, we're talking about muslims who live in the west!
If saudi arabia is not a true islamic state, then why are you taking their money and building mosques and hateful islamic schools with it? |
I am not taking their money, so I don't know anything about that....and I don't walk around holding hands with Saudi princes either.
When England was the colonizer they belittled and demeaned the native population, leeched the wealth out of the countries....as did France, Belgium. When those same natives to to Europe and want certain rights, the Europeans moan and say how dare they?
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| 45. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 03:11 am |
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Quoting alameda:
When England was the colonizer they belittled and demeaned the native population, leeched the wealth out of the countries....as did France, Belgium. When those same natives to to Europe and want certain rights, the Europeans moan and say how dare they? |
+10000
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| 46. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 03:50 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting alameda: First of all, there are many who DO NOT consider Saudi Arabia a true Islamic state.
Another thing is.....for how long did England colonize Eastern countries, leeching riches out of those countries. How many treasures from the East are in British museums? |
Is this your comment about the current muslim hatred of the west? And we're not talking about muslims in saudi arabia or egypt, we're talking about muslims who live in the west!
If saudi arabia is not a true islamic state, then why are you taking their money and building mosques and hateful islamic schools with it? |
Deary me Catwoma, you are generalizing. I know of an Islamic Girl's High School, attached to a Mosque. It is fast becoming a very well respected school and the Head Teacher (Principal) encourages interaction with other local schools.
The Mosque is being rebuilt. I believe some money (for school and mosque) has come from a member of the Royal Family in Saudi. I believe one of the trustees of the school is the Muslim gentleman who is in the British House of Lords . . the one who recently obtained the release of the British teacher who unwittingly allowed children to call a teddy Muhammed.
New Muslims and older Muslim ladies who never had the opportunities before, are welcomed with kindness and grace. Nothing is too much trouble and money is not asked for. I guess donations they receive cover this. The only point I will criticize them for is . . . the bleeping homework!
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| 47. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 03:54 am |
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Quoting CANLI: Quoting alameda:
When England was the colonizer they belittled and demeaned the native population, leeched the wealth out of the countries....as did France, Belgium. When those same natives to to Europe and want certain rights, the Europeans moan and say how dare they? |
+10000
|
Well done Alameda. I made a similar point today on Libra's post about the statue choice in leicester.
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| 48. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 04:00 am |
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Quoting peace train:
Deary me Catwoma, you are generalizing. I know of an Islamic Girl's High School, attached to a Mosque. It is fast becoming a very well respected school and the Head Teacher (Principal) encourages interaction with other local schools.
The Mosque is being rebuilt. I believe some money (for school and mosque) has come from a member of the Royal Family in Saudi. I believe one of the trustees of the school is the Muslim gentleman who is in the British House of Lords . . the one who recently obtained the release of the British teacher who unwittingly allowed children to call a teddy Muhammed.
New Muslims and older Muslim ladies who never had the opportunities before, are welcomed with kindness and grace. Nothing is too much trouble and money is not asked for. I guess donations they receive cover this. The only point I will criticize them for is . . . the bleeping homework! |
Do you really know what they are learning there?
Do you really know how islam treats woman?
As a woman do you really EXCEPT the secondry role comparing to a man? Dont you have any idea that Sheria does not not go with secularism?
Do they teach darwin there for example? do they teach evolution theory? do they teach other religions?
I have no idea where you are going with your arguments..
You are either very naive or you have no idea what you are talking about?
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| 49. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 04:19 am |
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Quoting thehandsom:
About reforming Islam.
It is an absolute necessity.
It is not NONSENSE.
|
Reforming İslam,or any other religion can be done only by the one who has sent it
So,you cant change in any religion ,lets talk about İslam,you cant actually do it unless ALLAH change it,and send another prophet to change HİS verses in Qur'an
and if we believe that would happen,then we are not muslims,because we believe Mohamed SAV is the last of the prophets.
İf you can REFORM a religion,so why bother from the start and have one ?
You can FORM your own religion by your own rules and not bother to change anything.
But if you BELİEVE...if you are a bliever by any religion,not just İslam,you must accept its rules as it is,you cant actually pick...
İf it doesnt suit you,then you can convert,or stop believing,but religion wont bend with anyone thought and desires,or else what is the point of it ?!
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| 50. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 04:23 am |
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Quoting thehandsom:
You are either very naive or you have no idea what you are talking about?
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Or you handsom,dont know what you are talking about
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| 51. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 04:34 am |
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Quoting thehandsom:
Do you really know what they are learning there?
Do you really know how islam treats woman?
As a woman do you really EXCEPT the secondry role comparing to a man? Dont you have any idea that Sheria does not not go with secularism?
Do they teach darwin there for example? do they teach evolution theory? do they teach other religions?
I have no idea where you are going with your arguments..
You are either very naive or you have no idea what you are talking about?
|
Do you know what are they learning there ?!
İ dont believe you have been to one ,do you ?!
Do you really know how İslam treat's women ?
Do you know how MEN treats women then ?!
Women in the West are not Muslims are they ?!
Who said woman have the secondry role compairing to men ?
Only women who ACCEPT it do
But the problem is not in İslam,the problem is in men's mentality !
There is İmam here published his opinion about how men SHOULD help women
And how Rasul ALLAH SAV was helping his wives in the house work even they were house wives
And if men can afford they SHOULD bring someone to help their wives.
Do you know how was men reaction ?!
They said that man is insane !
Even he is a reliable imam !
They said if they help their wives,that is A FAVOR,not a DUTY !
HELL,NO,it is a DUTY !
So,if women accept it....they only have themselves to blame,NOT İSLAM!
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| 52. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 04:56 am |
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Quoting thehandsom:
Canli
It is very interesting what you are saying above..
But, lets take only one verse..'cutting hand of the one who steals'
-Am I right to think that it is in Qouran itself which was sent by GOD?
-Are you saying that as a good muslim you will NOT follow what it says?
-If you are free 'to follow or not' on one verse, what about the others?
as an example:
-Can we say that 'women covering their hair' verse is not compatible with the current time?
|
There is much difference handsom between the 2 things,
First one,is a penalty ALLAH stat it for the ruler to decide who steal and deserve it.
So,in Ömer RA incident,the ruler couldnt provide food to his people,so he actually cant punish them over stealing to eat !
This penalty is not for me to use,it is for the ruler.
As for Hijab,its order from ALLAH to women to cover their hairs
So again nothing would stop women from following it...
Unless its something serious...
Like,if wearing hijab can give her any medical problem
Wearing hijab would harm her anyway 'as in a country who chase Muslims for examples and kill''...something like that...
But to take off hijab because its not fashinable this year ?!
Nope,its not allowed
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| 53. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 04:58 am |
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canli..I am promising to come back..
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| 54. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 05:00 am |
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Will hold you to it ...nite
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| 55. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 05:25 am |
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Quoting thehandsom: Quoting peace train:
Deary me Catwoman, you are generalizing. I know of an Islamic Girl's High School, attached to a Mosque. It is fast becoming a very well respected school and the Head Teacher (Principal) encourages interaction with other local schools.
The Mosque is being rebuilt. I believe some money (for school and mosque) has come from a member of the Royal Family in Saudi. I believe one of the trustees of the school is the Muslim gentleman who is in the British House of Lords . . the one who recently obtained the release of the British teacher who unwittingly allowed children to call a teddy Muhammed.
New Muslims and older Muslim ladies who never had the opportunities before, are welcomed with kindness and grace. Nothing is too much trouble and money is not asked for. I guess donations they receive cover this. The only point I will criticize them for is . . . the bleeping homework! |
Do you really know what they are learning there?
Do you really know how islam treats woman?
As a woman do you really EXCEPT the secondry role comparing to a man? Dont you have any idea that Sheria does not not go with secularism?
Do they teach darwin there for example? do they teach evolution theory? do they teach other religions?
I have no idea where you are going with your arguments..
You are either very naive or you have no idea what you are talking about?
|
The school's are inspected by the Government department, OFSTED.
There are Roman Catholic Schools, mixed and single sex. There are Church of England Schools, mixed and single sex. There are Methodist schools etc. There are single sex Grammar Schools (I went to one of these). There are single sex private schools, single sex Public schools. Religion based schools are nothing new in the UK. Some research suggests that single sex teaching is more effective.
I teach in a primary school and just under 50% of the children are Muslim. Many children move to our school from state primary schools that just happen to be 100% Muslim because they want their children exposed to a variety of cultures. We have Indian, Pakistani, Iraqi, Iranian, Polish, Croatian an "White British" children.
It's all about choice. Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if some non muslims started to try and get their children into the Islamic schools because some of the high schools are poor. There is research showing that White British Boys" are at risk of under achieving and becoming disaffected.
The curriculum for England and Wales is The National Curriculum plus The Curriculum for Religious Education. Each Education Authority can choose to follow the Government's Education and Skills Dept. QCA syllabus or replace or supplement with their own Agreed Syllabus, but if they do this it must reflect the main objectives of the QCA Scheme of Work.
The teaching of Religious Education (not Instruction) is a legal requirement from age 5 years to 16. Obviously Religious schools will also give some instruction in their faith. Collective worship is a legal requirement in all state schools. It is usually daily and broadly Christian based.
I co ordinate RE in my Primary School. I have responsibility for the Scheme of Work and lesson planning through out the school (3-11 years). There are 6 half terms in a year and we have a 2 year cycle. 50% of the half terms must cover Christianity then 3 other faiths are covered in a year/ Islam is taught one half term each year through out the school. In KS1 Hinduism and Judaism are taught alternate years. In KS2 Sikhism and Buddhism are taught alternate years.
There is a rule whereby children may be exempted from RE at the request of parents. This has happened twice in my school in the last 15 years that I have been there. Once by a Jehova's Witness family and once by a Pagan family. They were also exempted from collective worship. Similarly, Staff may also exempt themselves from teaching RE. This has happened once to my knowledge, by an Aetheist.
I have always found that the Muslim children, in general, take the most interest in the RE lessons.
Sheria as is generally understood, was not what was being "mulled" over here by the Bish. Don't panic.
I am an independant woman my dear handsom. Always have been. I was the breadwinner in my marriage for 8 years whilst my husband studied to be an architect I AM A MATRIARCH . . . so watch it mate!!!!
You mentioned thev Headscarf in another thread. I believe this is historically a cultural phenomenon not a Muslim one. I believe women should be allowed to choose whether to wear it or not. Either way, they shouldn't be judged . . . it is not the way for a Muslim to judge his/her fellow Muslim, only Allah can do that. I found this link some time ago:
http://www.free-minds.org/women/scarf.htm
The issue of covering the hair is much debated, especially what, or what isn't said about it in Qur'an. It is only for Allah to judge an individual's decision.
I mentioned once before, I know a lot of Muslim couples and in all those marriages, the woman is the dominant partner. Some wear the scarf, some don't. In Turkey my married friends seem to be more equal partners and the women do not wear the scarf.
I realise there are places in the world where attitudes to women need to change, but this cannot be done overnight.
Handsom . . . I think I spoke too much. That's women for you!! Oh and yes, I realise, some women in the world don't get that luxury. Kinda makes some of the bickering that goes on here look self indulgent don't ya think?
Oh and Handsom?
Au Revoir but not Goodbye
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| 56. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 06:03 am |
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It is to late for me to answer
But I will be back..
good night..
ps..I still think that you dont have much idea what you are talking about..You dont know islam..
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| 57. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 06:54 am |
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Quoting catwoman:
I love this guy - Ed Husain! I wish all muslims were like him |
is it acceptable to ask if all blacks could be like Bill Cosby?
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| 58. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 06:57 am |
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Quoting teaschip1: Quote: Would you recognize a rough diamond? |
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What about Dr. Mehmet Oz? Too radical for you?
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| 59. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 06:59 am |
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Quoting catwoman: There is no doubt that sensationalistic media producing for dumb masses is skewing the picture, BUT, alameda, liberal muslims are a rarity and that's not a media truth, that's reality. I am looking around and I don't see many of them. With all the crazy stuff going on in europe and around the world, we should know about those liberals if they were there. But none of them are protesting to all the atrocities commited against humanity that's happening even in their own circles. |
its like 60's and 70's TV...all the criminals were black and hispanic. All the good guys were white. I have found today's Archie Bunker and he is here at TC carrying a purse...
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| 60. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 07:23 am |
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Quoting KeithL: Quoting catwoman: There is no doubt that sensationalistic media producing for dumb masses is skewing the picture, BUT, alameda, liberal muslims are a rarity and that's not a media truth, that's reality. I am looking around and I don't see many of them. With all the crazy stuff going on in europe and around the world, we should know about those liberals if they were there. But none of them are protesting to all the atrocities commited against humanity that's happening even in their own circles. |
its like 60's and 70's TV...all the criminals were black and hispanic. All the good guys were white. I have found today's Archie Bunker and he is here at TC carrying a purse... |
Alf Garnett lives! Nice one Keith. I remember the British version.
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| 61. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:05 pm |
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Canli.
In Qur'an, set of the rules are to obey not to interpret..You can not pick some of them and say 'I will do this', but I wont that..
Do we agree with that? I think you answer will be clearly yes..
Assuming that the answer is yes.
Lets pick up some of the suras:
sura 5:33 clearly indicates that :
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.
-Will you accept above? (you have to, because you cant say NO)
sura 5:38
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
it is not reccomendation..it is a clear order. is it not?
-Are you saying that you are not accepting above? (forget stealing bread here, assume that a robbery on the street with a knife, for money to buy drugs)
-Will you NOT chop the hand? (well you have to )
sura 4:003
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
-will you NOT object if your man comes to you and says that he will marry again? (it is in Qur'an..is it not?)
-If you really think that it is just and fair, how can you NOT show me a sura that women can have 4 husbands then?
-Dont you think above is clearly undermines the very basics of equality of women and men?
sura 4:011
Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah
- are you saying that you will follow above and you will discriminate between sons and daugthters?
- Is that not a clear discrimination?
sura 4:015
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.
-approved by you?
Do you want me to continue?
Because I am bored with this righ now.
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| 62. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:31 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom:
Canli.
In Qur'an, set of the rules are to obey not to interpret..You can not pick some of them and say 'I will do this', but I wont that..
Do we agree with that? I think you answer will be clearly yes..
Assuming that the answer is yes.
Lets pick up some of the suras:
sura 5:33 clearly indicates that :
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.
-Will you accept above? (you have to, because you cant say NO)
sura 5:38
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
it is not reccomendation..it is a clear order. is it not?
-Are you saying that you are not accepting above? (forget stealing bread here, assume that a robbery on the street with a knife, for money to buy drugs)
-Will you NOT chop the hand? (well you have to )
sura 4:003
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
-will you NOT object if your man comes to you and says that he will marry again? (it is in Qur'an..is it not?)
-If you really think that it is just and fair, how can you NOT show me a sura that women can have 4 husbands then?
-Dont you think above is clearly undermines the very basics of equality of women and men?
sura 4:011
Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah
- are you saying that you will follow above and you will discriminate between sons and daugthters?
- Is that not a clear discrimination?
sura 4:015
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.
-approved by you?
Do you want me to continue?
Because I am bored with this righ now.
|
handsom,if you please provide the name of Sura at first one beside the number of ayat
So i can know in which contest where they and be able to answer
As for others,actually we talked about this before and i've answered you...
İf my man come and said he want to marry another ''Qur'an says he MUST tell before he do'' then its better for me than to find out he is CHEATİNG at me without i know,
At least i will have the chance to kick him off if i choose too
Muslim doing this by marriage,others doing it WİTHOUT marrige
İ believe its a MAN thing to cheat then,is it ?!!!
As for heritage,as i told you before,in İslam its man's duty to support his sister,if she is not married,if she was married then divorced
Her brother MUST support her,starting from accommodation,food,clothes...EVERYTHİNG
and she doesnt have to spend a penny from her heritage also
Even her brother is married and has a familly,it is STİLL his responsibility,so women dont have troubles facing life
so yes,i believe its fair that he inherit double what she does.
As for women have more than 1 husband,i believe it will be a MESS in knowing who is the son of who,and you can see that is happening in the west,so i dont need to answer this.
For other question,i will reply later,just provide the Sura name for me please...
Ps: you are right,i got very much bored too ...İslam's is MUSLİMS religion and we will practice it the way it is ,we dont ask anyone to be Muslims if the dont like,and CERTAİNALY we wont be RETAUGHT about our religion from non Muslims !
İts not even logic,is it ?
İ mean,would i go and teach christians how to be good christians ?!
Nonsense !
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| 63. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 01:54 pm |
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Well.
About that particular islamic school, I might be wrong But there were some other examples like 'in East Sussex a school owned by the Jemeah Islamiyah' I am sure you have heard of that..
You can consider yourself an idependant woman and MATRIARCH. It is you, describing yourself.
I have nothing to say.
But trust me, you would not be like that in a country where real sheria ruled.
So, not me, it is better you watch out.
Canli cleary says that headscarf is a must in Qur'an.
But I agree with you, it is, originally, a historical phenomenon.
But it is better for you if you read the necessary suras and make your mind up if you are going to cover your hair or not..
Allah will judge you according to that.
I mentioned before, Islam in Turkey is milder version. (Although it is the fact that, with current government, they are trying to change it to a more extreme one.)
Turkey have lived with secularism for a long time..
So the women you see in turkey is result of secularism and result of NOT OBEYING some of the islamic rules.
It is not that islam gives them right to be as they are..
And yes..you definetely speak too much..
I would not mind you write long posts if they were not full of goody-goody and asking for 'quote me please'.
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| 64. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 02:05 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
For other question,i will reply later,just provide the Sura name for me please...
Ps: you are right,i got very much bored too ...İslam's is MUSLİMS religion and we will practice it the way it is ,we dont ask anyone to be Muslims if the dont like,and CERTAİNALY we wont be RETAUGHT about our religion from non Muslims !
İts not even logic,is it ?
İ mean,would i go and teach christians how to be good christians ?!
Nonsense ! |
4 is al-Nisa
5 is al-Maida
About Islam and critising Islam.
personally, I am not trying to teach anything to anybody.
I am in this discussion because of my country, my country's women, my (female) friends , my sister/mother etc..And of course for political correctness.
I am in it because, I believe, it is a huge obsticle for my country and waste of time and resources..
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| 65. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 03:57 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom:
Well.
About that particular islamic school, I might be wrong But there were some other examples like 'in East Sussex a school owned by the Jemeah Islamiyah' I am sure you have heard of that..
You can consider yourself an idependant woman and MATRIARCH. It is you, describing yourself.
I have nothing to say.
But trust me, you would not be like that in a country where real sheria ruled.
So, not me, it is better you watch out.
Canli cleary says that headscarf is a must in Qur'an.
But I agree with you, it is, originally, a historical phenomenon.
But it is better for you if you read the necessary suras and make your mind up if you are going to cover your hair or not..
Allah will judge you according to that.
I mentioned before, Islam in Turkey is milder version. (Although it is the fact that, with current government, they are trying to change it to a more extreme one.)
Turkey have lived with secularism for a long time..
So the women you see in turkey is result of secularism and result of NOT OBEYING some of the islamic rules.
It is not that islam gives them right to be as they are..
And yes..you definetely speak too much..
I would not mind you write long posts if they were not full of goody-goody and asking for 'quote me please'. |
Handsom
I am not a goody goody but you are entitled to think what you like of me. It is a risk I take every time I enter the TC site.
You can easily bypass my words.
Like everyone else that comes to this site and posts an opinion, of course I want some one to read it, quote it and comment on it (in whatever way they see fit). I am not looking for people to agree with me all the time, I accept diversity of thought. So please, keep reading me and respond to me as I learn many things from you, about Turkish politics and about you.
The matriarch comment was very tongue in cheek handsom.
You say:
“Canli clearly says that headscarf is a must in Qur'an.
But I agree with you, it is, originally, a historical phenomenon.
But it is better for you if you read the necessary suras and make your mind up if you are going to cover your hair or not...
Allah will judge you according to that.â€
I have made my decision and I agree with you I will be judged accordingly, by Allah and nobody else. I have commented on this issue of judgement before. The extent of God Consciousness is a matter between the individual and God. I am not perfect. Nobody is perfect. There are two angels handsom. Qur’an refers to God as an acceptor of repentance and a dispenser of grace. I try the best I can and keep faith and learn from my mistakes.
I was brought up a Christian, but changed my faith. I suppose, if I put my mind to it I could spend my time on this site picking holes in Christian beliefs and finding examples of extremism/fanaticism/misogyny. Why would I want to do that?
I could also spend my time being negative about the atheist and agnostic view, but, again, why would I want to subject seemingly respectable people on this site to such criticism? It is their business.
Many people on this site probably don’t divulge their religious persuasion. It is their choice. Those that do nail their colours to the mast risk criticism, again their choice.
You say about the present Government in Turkey:
“(Although it is the fact that, with current government, they are trying to change it to a more extreme one.)â€
That is not a fact, it is an opinion.
For every argument “for†there is usually an argument “againstâ€.
If I wished I could say to you, don’t only think of Turkish women who don’t want the scarf, think also of your fellow country women who DO want it. Giving women the choice is giving them freedom. Don’t assume that every woman in Turkey, who wishes to wear the scarf, is weak and ruled by some man. I would say that is patronising. Oops, there, I said it.
I have already stated my opinion on this site, about oppression of women (not only in Islam) and so I am not going to detail it. I don’ t agree with oppression full stop. Of course you know what Martin Luther King fought for. Of course you know what Nelson Mandela fought for. Of course you know why the world shunned South Africa , in business and the sporting arena etc. Of course you know about Ghandi’s work on the civil rights movement in South Africa. What about civil rights in China? What about their dying rooms? Where is the voice for oppressed children on this site? What about the rights of people with physical and mental disabilities? There are so many topics about oppression to choose from.
I hope my “goody-goody†crown is not dazzling your eyes too much, I want you to be fit enough to read my long posts.
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| 66. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 05:46 pm |
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sura 5:33 clearly indicates that :
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed OR crucified, OR have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, OR will be expelled out of the land.
And rest of it,
''that tho they be shamless in earth,and face great punishment in other life''
Rest of the ayat ,
5:34
''Except those who regret it before you condemn them,so know that ALLAH is forgiving and merciful''
So,actually ALLAH gave 4 choices for the ruler to condemn such people,and last one is forgivness if they regret it
Enemies for ALLAH and his messenger means not just enemy of religion,they are the enemies of country ,such as traitor
Those people harm the country,the people also
And i guess on the time when you were establishing your secular republic back in 30th of the 19th you were punishing the enemies of republic by worse than this
Even till now,no one allowed to SPEAK against it or else will be threatened to prison
So,i believe yes,i aprove of what ALLAH said,at least much more merciful !
As for
sura 5:38
As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
5:39
''Who regret it after his unjustice 'his stealing'and fixed it,so ALLAH forgive him,that ALLAH forgiving and merciful''
So,it actually says,those who steal,they will be punished of cutting of their hands,unless if the regret it,and give back what they have stolen,so they will be forgiven and ALLAH will forgive them also and their hands wont be chopped.
So,i believe,i agree with that too,even we dont apply it also in my country
You see,by such punishment,there wont be men on the street walking arround with knifes to steal from people..
Because they will be afraid if they are cought,their hand will be chopped
They wont be going to prison for few monthes or few years and then come out,hating the society more and more for taking away their freedom and back to stealing and drugs and what so ever,because also society wont accept them,even they really became good people
Once they have been to jail...then its over...they are condemned by it .
What im talking about is a reality happening in every country,and mine also...
We also have stealing rate,killing rate ..ect
But even that i dont agree with their ways in everything,but must stat that at Saudi Arabia,they dont have this,and also they dont have people's having their hands chopped everyday
The stealing rate there is minor.
So whether i like it or not,those are facts happening in our countries and in their country.
As for this,
Quoting thehandsom:
About Islam and critising Islam.
personally, I am not trying to teach anything to anybody.
I am in this discussion because of my country, my country's women, my (female) friends , my sister/mother etc..And of course for political correctness.
I am in it because, I believe, it is a huge obsticle for my country and waste of time and resources.. |
Actually İslam in not a religion made just for your country,so you can take it to the tailor and adjust it the way it suits you.
İts a religion with set rules,you cannt change its rules as you like,
Surely you can follow them or not,its your own choice
But,you want to change its rules,so its suite you the way you like,so whatever you do,you feel you are following its rules ?!
Have you ever heared of any religion doing this ?
Maybe what suite you,wont suite me,or wont suite others,or what suits me wont suits you
For example,in my opinion at divorce the only one who take care of the childern these days are women,so,it would be more suitable to adjust divorce rules and to give mothers the right to bring up children uless they express their desire to give it to the father.
and mean while to oblige the father to pay 2/3 of his income to her as support to the children 'you know schools,UNİ and so,needs lots of money'' and to increase it with a suitabe percentage every year to face the economic Inflation till they reach the age of 21
This would be applicable,and fair to me,is it to you ?!
so would everyone make his own version of the religion and call it also İslam and follow it ?!!!
You know drinking alcohol is forbidden in İslam,but still many men in your country drink rakı,yes ?
You didnt change Qur'an verses to do this,did you ?!
And alos Que'an verses didnt stop you from making your own choice in drinking it,did it ?!
So why not your sister,your mother,your country's women, your (female) friends dont do this also,and take what they want from İslam,follow it and dont follow what it doesnt suit them ?!
Why dont them has the right to choose what to do as you 'men' did ?
İt would be their personal choice and they bear its burden,but STİLL their choice as it was yours.
But you want to change İslam so,what ever you do,or choose will be in the category of following İslam rules ?!
Being a bleiever is not easy handsom,not just in İslam,but in any religion,it come with a price,and that price is to FOLLOW that religion rules,then you can be a believer.
Or simply just pick another one that suits you more,or have your own believes,but you cant call them İslam,or Christianity which they are not.
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| 67. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 07:17 pm |
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Just curious handsom,why did you quote the verses with the punishment and left the merciful ones,even they come right after them and completing the meaning of the verses which you have posted ?!
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| 68. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 07:27 pm |
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Handsom, do you really have such a low opinion of women that you underestimate Canli? You didn't think she would do her research and answer your shallow attempts at criticism?
tut tut
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| 69. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:07 pm |
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Canli, You are agreeing with:
-The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger..they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off...*
-As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. (assuming that they did not regret..)
(I wished, you did not skip about having multiple wifes, women-men equality questions though -But I assume, there is no logical answer there..is there ? )
..
Well..
Thanks for agreeing above..well done..
And you proved my point here (actually many points as well):
I dont want anybody's head is chopped OFF, because he/she is considered attacking Allah.
It is against ALL my beliefs in this world. (all of them. freedom of speech, expressing opinions and KILLING PEOPLE BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY BELIEVE..etc etc)
You are also proved that Islam needs reforms.
You like it or not.
(No wonder why Christianity is expanding more than islam!!!)
When my daughter asks me about islam, how do you want me to tell her what you agreed above? eh?
How can I tell her, islam is a religion that heads might be chopped off and the limbs might be cut off?
Note: I dont think, me not giving the following suras, would change the concept . would it?
Lets dont go into word games here.
* Just remembered: Assuming that you supported 'zarqavi', in iraq, cutting the heads infront of the cameras. He did everything according to the book!!
YES?
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| 70. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:14 pm |
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Quoting peace train: Handsom, do you really have such a low opinion of women that you underestimate Canli? You didn't think she would do her research and answer your shallow attempts at criticism?
tut tut |
this is how any attempt of trying to converse with peace train end! even Canli is more civilized in a discussion (I say "even" because I know that she's a devout muslim).
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| 71. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:29 pm |
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handsom,i've already did answre the multiple wifes, women-men equality questions,read my privous posts,seems you actually didnt read any but still questioning me
İ dont want anyone's head to be chopped too handsom,but the people who will have their heads chopped are the people who are facing death penalty in our laws...
Mine,yours,and West's also...!
İf you understand the meaning of the verses you would understand this as well !
AGAİN,when ALLAH refers to enemies of ALLAH and Rasul,HE actually didnt mean it as enemy in a religous way
İn that time,there was no country ALLAH can refer to it to be consider as Muslims country,or arabic country...
There was tripes,so stating the enemy of ALLAH and Rasul was refering to the enemies of the growing nation..
So,actually whether you like it or not,there are people dying and their head been chopped for betraying their nations!
İn İslam,or in others !
İ dont actually care if Christianity is expanding more than islam, ''You have your believes and i have mine''
As for your daughter,well actually i dont know handsom,seems to me you dont find anything good about İslam,so....i dont know what would you tell her !
Note to your note :
Yes,i believe it is making great difference
Another note :
Do you believe there is zarqavi in İraq ?!
And...i didnt get you....do you now supposing im supporting him 'if there is one' a terrorist you mean because what i believe about İslam ?!!!!
Meaning ....... ?????!!!!!!!!
Yes,i really wonder what would you tell your daughter ?!
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| 72. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:43 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: Handsom, do you really have such a low opinion of women that you underestimate Canli? You didn't think she would do her research and answer your shallow attempts at criticism?
tut tut |
this is how any attempt of trying to converse with peace train end! even Canli is more civilized in a discussion (I say "even" because I know that she's a devout muslim). |
Ha ha ha Catwoman you may judge me however you wish, if it helps you. Your judgement about me does not affect my life or my faith. You are simply another member of this website who has an opinion they are entitled to.
I am pleased to see that you acknowledge there are devout Muslim's who visit this site. "devout" makes a nice change from the usual vocabulary. Perhaps it will set a more positive trend.
Well done ! There's hope for you yet.
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| 73. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:47 pm |
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Quoting KeithL: Quoting catwoman:
I love this guy - Ed Husain! I wish all muslims were like him |
is it acceptable to ask if all blacks could be like Bill Cosby? |
Keith, I said that I wish all muslims gave up the primitive and hateful beliefs that so many of them have (regarding the role of women, attitudes toward apostates and non-muslims... etc). Why are you twisting my words? Don't you know what I meant?
Yes, it's absolutely acceptable, in fact, it's necessary to ask them all to be taht way. 500 years ago christianity also used to be intolerant and primitive, but somehow, it did reform itself. The same is necessary for islam, if they are ever to become a tolerant, open minded religion.
And yes, I know that not all muslims are intolerant. But most of the 1.2 billion are.
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| 74. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:50 pm |
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Quoting peace train: Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: Handsom, do you really have such a low opinion of women that you underestimate Canli? You didn't think she would do her research and answer your shallow attempts at criticism?
tut tut |
this is how any attempt of trying to converse with peace train end! even Canli is more civilized in a discussion (I say "even" because I know that she's a devout muslim). |
Ha ha ha Catwoman you may judge me however you wish, if it helps you. Your judgement about me does not affect my life or my faith. You are simply another member of this website who has an opinion they are entitled to.
I am pleased to see that you acknowledge there are devout Muslim's who visit this site. "devout" makes a nice change from the usual vocabulary. Perhaps it will set a more positive trend.
Well done ! There's hope for you yet. |
why don't you write a poem about it dear? would it relieve your anxiety better?
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| 75. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:52 pm |
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Well
Canli, it is really nice arguing with you in a civilized fashion. I really appreciate that.
Well the answers you have given were kind of rounded answers.
I was asking, clearly, why it was only man not women mentioned about having multiple partners.
You just said 'Determining the father would be difficult'.well..it is a question, clearly, can find answers easily in these days..So it is not a credible answer to me..
I was asking that question clearly from women-men-equality point of view.
Why it is men? not women?
Allah did not create us equal?
About the inheritance, your answer was not clear either..
Man having more responsiblities, looking after others etc , as you know, is a bit of a past in these days.(and many reason for that of course: Increased population, families dont live together etc.).
So that answer, seems to me, passed its time too..
About christianity and islam, do not worry..I am clearly NOT a christian..I never was, I will never be..
I was just stating the figures, I saw, several months ago.
I am DEFINITELEY not going to tell my daughter what you agreed..
And about zarqavi..
ok..lets forget that question. I should not have asked .
But, surely, what he was doing was in line with qu'ran..
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| 76. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 08:54 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: I know that she's a devout muslim). |
Actually,i dont understand what you mean by devout muslim.
İf i am to describe myself,then im just Muslim,i try to live my day,doing things which makes me one..
No more or less.
İ dont read about İslam except in things that i need to live my life as Muslim,i dont study it...
İ have my wrongs and rights as anyone else...just i know if they are wrongs.
İ guess this is same with Christians too,no ?!
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| 77. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:04 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting KeithL: Quoting catwoman:
I love this guy - Ed Husain! I wish all muslims were like him |
is it acceptable to ask if all blacks could be like Bill Cosby? |
Why are you twisting my words?
QUOTE]
I don't think he was twisting your words. He was stating his opinion of your remark.
But you are right, we do tend to twist words here. |
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| 78. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:09 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: Quoting catwoman: Quoting peace train: Handsom, do you really have such a low opinion of women that you underestimate Canli? You didn't think she would do her research and answer your shallow attempts at criticism?
tut tut |
this is how any attempt of trying to converse with peace train end! even Canli is more civilized in a discussion (I say "even" because I know that she's a devout muslim). |
Ha ha ha Catwoman you may judge me however you wish, if it helps you. Your judgement about me does not affect my life or my faith. You are simply another member of this website who has an opinion they are entitled to.
I am pleased to see that you acknowledge there are devout Muslim's who visit this site. "devout" makes a nice change from the usual vocabulary. Perhaps it will set a more positive trend.
Well done ! There's hope for you yet. |
why don't you write a poem about it dear? would it relieve your anxiety better? |
As a student doctor I would have thought you would understand what anxiety is.
Seems you changed your opinion about my poem . . . now that makes me really anxious.. .
It's recess here, I'm off out to play now.
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| 79. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:12 pm |
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I just think that Islam is way too vague. It is never clear abotu what it means. It always (like the handchopping) has some conditions, that make it easy for a judge to chop or not to chop, however he likes or was brought up. Or to have multiple wives, according to that sura you can only take more than one wife if you can guarantee you wont love one more than another. Since this is impossible for any person, you cannot marry more than one woman. If you cannot marry more than one woman, why not just write 'not allowed to marry multiple women', or not say anything about multiple wives at all?
Also, when I was reading Quran (sorry guys I cant provide the exact sura right now), first it was forbidding several things like wine and pork, and suddenly it said that 'you can take all from the world that seems good to you'. So if wine seems good to you, you can just take it?
I just find it a hard religion! I understand muslims who were born muslims, but I have a hard time understand people who converted. How can they be so sure that their interpretation is what Allah meant?
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| 80. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:22 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting KeithL: Quoting catwoman:
I love this guy - Ed Husain! I wish all muslims were like him |
is it acceptable to ask if all blacks could be like Bill Cosby? |
And yes, I know that not all muslims are intolerant. But most of the 1.2 billion are. |
Are you saying most of the 1.2b Muslims (half being female) are intolerant? Intolerant of what? Continually having words twisted. Yes that's deliberately argumentative, it goes on a lot here.
Or are you saying the governments that oppress them are intolerant? The governments/leaders don't equate to most of 1.2b.
I'm genuinely unsure of the figures and how you determine intolerance.
Please help me out.
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| 81. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:27 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom:
Well
Canli, it is really nice arguing with you in a civilized fashion. I really appriciate that.
Well the answers you have given were kind of rounded answers.
I was asking, clearly, why it was only man not women mentioned about having multiple partners.
You just said 'Determining the father would be difficult'.well..it is a question, clearly, can find answers easily in these days..So it is not a credible answer to me..
I was asking that question clearly from women-men-equality point of view.
Why it is men? not women?
Allah did not create us equal?
About the inheritance, your answer was not clear either..
Man having more responsiblities, looking after others etc , as you know, is a bit of a past in these days.(and many reason for that of course: Increased population, families dont live together etc.).
So that answer, seems to me, passed its time too..
About christianity and islam, do not worry..I am clearly NOT a christian..I never was, I will never be..
I was just stating the figures, I saw, several months ago.
I am DEFINITELEY not going to tell my daughter what you agreed..
And about zarqavi..
ok..lets forget that question. I should not have asked .
But, surely, what he was doing was in line with qu'ran..
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The pleasure is all mine handsom .
Ama,handsom,i actually GAVE YOU answeres,where you didnt GİVE ME any lol
You see determining tha father can be solved easily these days ?!
Why do 'West' have such problems then still ?!
Not knowing who is the son of whom,and who is the father of whom,that what you can call it a HEALTHY SOCİETY ?!
No,sorry,dont count me in such one !
About inheritance
İts NOT men having more responsiblities, looking after others
NOPE,they are having more responsiblities looking after HİS SİSTER.
Thats different.
Tell me,when there was a time which women dont work,and only heavy works are available,and who is hired is the strong stud
how can such women survive then ?!
Selling their bodies ?!
And you know something,that diffeculties for women to have jobs is not something in the past,maybe its getting more less by time,but it is STİLL ,specially for non educated women !
So,would it be better that her brother be responsible of her,or would it be better that she walks arround beg for something to eat ?!
When her brother actually inhereted double what she did 'maybe lots of money maybe not'is keeping her dignity that he is NOT making her a favor
Nothing is passed its time handsom,your responsibilities is arround your neck,whether you've fulfilled them or not !
As for if she is my daughter,i would be actually telling her 'Dont worry dear,nothing or no one will DARE to harm you doesnt matter what time of the day it is ''
About zarqavi...apology accepted lol
But,hypothetically speeking SURELY he has no right to do such,he is not the ruler.
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| 82. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:30 pm |
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Quoting CANLI: You see determining tha father can be solved easily these days ?!
Why do 'West' have such problems then still ?!
Not knowing who is the son of whom,and who is the father of whom,that what you can call it a HEALTHY SOCİETY ?!
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Just a small note on this one.. I dont think that the West is having a big society in which nobody knows who's child is from who. It's too marginal to be an argument in this discussion, that's all.
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| 83. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:38 pm |
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As same as Christianity to us D_K
İts not easy for me either to understand the bible
Tho its not in my native language,but to us its not vague .
Qur'an has been sent in a time where men can have many,MANY women,as a wife,as maid,as b**chs
So it wouldnt be really acceptable from them to say Only 1 wife allowed
So ALLAH left it to them but made it hard for them too
Ok,marry 4 wives,but if you didnt love them equally,then dont...!
So,they actually wont do it themselves.
And when it says, 'you can take all from the world that seems good to you'
The things which were forbidden like pork and wine are excluded.
The people who have convered,they chose it,so they search and study,there are many sources can provide them with the right meaning
The story and the event behinde each Ayat,and Sura,make it better understanding for what it meant.
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| 84. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:41 pm |
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Quoting Deli_kizin:
Just a small note on this one.. I dont think that the West is having a big society in which nobody knows who's child is from who. It's too marginal to be an argument in this discussion, that's all. |
İ dont understand what you mean...:-S
İ was refering to both son and father...not to the society
Later son and father will one of those who form that society.
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| 85. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:43 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
Qur'an has been sent in a time where men can have many,MANY women,as a wife,as maid,as b**chs
So it wouldnt be really acceptable from them to say Only 1 wife allowed
So ALLAH left it to them but made it hard for them too
Ok,marry 4 wives,but if you didnt love them equally,then dont...!
So,they actually wont do it themselves.
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Canli,
Be careful over there
Because you are fueling the suspicions that Kuran was written by looking at certain time, at certain people.
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| 86. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:43 pm |
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Quoting CANLI: As same as Christianity to us D_K
İts not easy for me either to understand the bible
Tho its not in my native language,but to us its not vague .
Qur'an has been sent in a time where men can have many,MANY women,as a wife,as maid,as b**chs
So it wouldnt be really acceptable from them to say Only 1 wife allowed
So ALLAH left it to them but made it hard for them too
Ok,marry 4 wives,but if you didnt love them equally,then dont...!
So,they actually wont do it themselves.
And when it says, 'you can take all from the world that seems good to you'
The things which were forbidden like pork and wine are excluded.
The people who have convered,they chose it,so they search and study,there are many sources can provide them with the right meaning
The story and the event behinde each Ayat,and Sura,make it better understanding for what it meant. |
All nice and well, but how do you explain the four schools of law? They all have a different interpretation of Quran. And those interpretations evolved after close studies of Quran and Hadith.
I know about the pre-islamic situation of women, and in that light it is a nice surah. Yet, like the heritage, it is outdated.
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| 87. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:53 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom:
Canli,
Be careful over there
Because you are fueling the suspicions that Kuran was written by looking at certain time, at certain people.
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ohhh handsom lol
İt was reasoning with certian kind of people at certain time
But the same reason is valid for all times
Here,D_K is not muslim and she has reached the same conclusion
That its not preferable to have more than 1 wife
So,as we are in our time,and as D_K is not even muslim,so i guess that proves my point even more
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| 88. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:58 pm |
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Quoting Deli_kizin:
All nice and well, but how do you explain the four schools of law? They all have a different interpretation of Quran. And those interpretations evolved after close studies of Quran and Hadith.
I know about the pre-islamic situation of women, and in that light it is a nice surah. Yet, like the heritage, it is outdated.
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Actually they are not that different,it goes from conservative to less conservative.
And you are free to follow which you like.
İ find it even more easier this way...
For example,here in Egypt we mostly live by Şafi concept and we marry accourding to Hanfi concept !
As for me...i pick the less demanding thing in each. hee hee
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| 89. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 09:58 pm |
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Quoting CANLI: Quoting thehandsom:
Canli,
Be careful over there
Because you are fueling the suspicions that Kuran was written by looking at certain time, at certain people.
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ohhh handsom lol
İt was reasoning with certian kind of people at certain time
But the same reason is valid for all times
Here,D_K is not muslim and she has reached the same conclusion
That its not preferable to have more than 1 wife
So,as we are in our time,and as D_K is not even muslim,so i guess that proves my point even more |
But canli
You just gave the reason that
Qur'an has been sent in a time where men can have many,MANY women,as a wife,as maid,as b**chs
So it wouldnt be really acceptable from them to say Only 1 wife allowed
So ALLAH left it to them but made it hard for them too
But we know that those reasons are 'not valid anymore'
How come it proves your point?
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| 90. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 10:03 pm |
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Quoting peace train: Are you saying most of the 1.2b Muslims (half being female) are intolerant? Intolerant of what? Continually having words twisted. Yes that's deliberately argumentative, it goes on a lot here.
Or are you saying the governments that oppress them are intolerant? The governments/leaders don't equate to most of 1.2b.
I'm genuinely unsure of the figures and how you determine intolerance.
Please help me out. |
Can someone tell me if she is blind? Maybe she can't read? :-S Maybe she is censored at home as to what news she can read.... Someone help me out please.... 
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| 91. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 10:05 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: Quoting CANLI: Quoting thehandsom:
Canli,
Be careful over there
Because you are fueling the suspicions that Kuran was written by looking at certain time, at certain people.
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ohhh handsom lol
İt was reasoning with certian kind of people at certain time
But the same reason is valid for all times
Here,D_K is not muslim and she has reached the same conclusion
That its not preferable to have more than 1 wife
So,as we are in our time,and as D_K is not even muslim,so i guess that proves my point even more |
But canli
You just gave the reason that
Qur'an has been sent in a time where men can have many,MANY women,as a wife,as maid,as b**chs
So it wouldnt be really acceptable from them to say Only 1 wife allowed
So ALLAH left it to them but made it hard for them too
But we know that those reasons are 'not valid anymore'
How come it proves your point?
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handsommmm lol
You actually finding more easier to ask me than to read what i've written...and make me type even more lol 
Ok,here we go,even D_K not Muslim,and did NOT live in that past time,but reading Qur'an made her understand that,it is prefered to have 1 wife ONLY
And that was the same massage ALLAH sent to them by saying,'and you wont be capable of doing it '
So now,men...SMART MEN,actually dont need to try to marry 4 wives and then find out they cant be just to all of them...now they can read Qur'an,think and understand it...cant they ?!
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| 92. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 10:10 pm |
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Canli... what's wrong with muslims then - non-muslim men and women figured out a long time ago that it's wrong to marry more then one woman... :-S in fact, the Bible was written before the Koran and they didn't advocate for polygamy, why did the allknowing God make it backwards for muslims?
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| 93. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 10:20 pm |
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Quoting catwoman: Canli... what's wrong with muslims then - non-muslim men and women figured out a long time ago that it's wrong to marry more then one woman... :-S in fact, the Bible was written before the Koran and they didn't advocate for polygamy, why did the allknowing God make it backwards for muslims? |
Because in certain cases it be a must...so it must be put in some formal way to organize it
As when and how to do it,its conditions and so,
For example,a woman is very sick... paralyzed or something,and staying in bed,with no hope in healing
By time,her husband want to marry another woman,so,he either divorce her,and not looking after her
Or marry another one,and still marrying this woman ..
When in war,the number of women would be treble or even more the number of men or something
So,if every man marry just 1 woman,that would leave lots of women without marriage.
But..what is happening in some İslamic countries now,men marry more than 1 with no reason to justify it....!
İ guess its what i can least describe it as MANLY thing ! 
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| 94. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 10:22 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
So now,men...SMART MEN,actually dont need to try to marry 4 wives and then find out they cant be just to all of them...now they can read Qur'an,think and understand it...cant they ?! |
But Canli,
What you are saying is that that sura is 'irrelevant' for today.
am I right?
Again, it will fuel into the speculation that 'it was written for its time only' ..
dont you agree?
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| 95. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 10:24 pm |
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Already answered this in my above post
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| 96. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 10:29 pm |
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Quoting CANLI: For example,a woman is very sick... paralyzed or something,and staying in bed,with no hope in healing
By time,her husband want to marry another woman,so,he either divorce her,and not looking after her
Or marry another one,and still marrying this woman .. |
this is absolutely ridiculous. when a woman is sick and her husband goes off to another woman, it only shows that the guy is a dick and an asshole. he is betraying his wife when she needs him most. you are completely ignoring the woman's feelings and assuming that the guy always has to have a wife. it's a very sick point of view.
Quoting CANLI: When in war,the number of women would be treble or even more the number of men or something
So,if every man marry just 1 woman,that would leave lots of women without marriage. |
you are assuming again that a woman HAS to marry, otherwise, her existance is worthless. that is obviously a dreadful, horrible way to think.
Quoting CANLI: İ guess its what i can least describe it as MANLY thing ! |
it is a "manly" thing, because we live in a patriarchy when men are allowed to do whatever they want, even when that is humiliating or degrading to women. they are the upper cast that holds almost all the power and they are abusing the lower cast (women).
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| 97. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 11:04 pm |
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Thoug I completely disagree with Canlı and really do not want to be seen as a reason why the Quran was written well, I have to say I am so happy to see that this discussion is going peacefully
Canlı, thehandsome, catwoman:
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| 98. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 11:24 pm |
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Same for you Deli Kizin!
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| 99. |
08 Mar 2008 Sat 11:57 pm |
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Quoting Deli_kizin: I have to say I am so happy to see that this discussion is going peacefully
Canlı,thehandsome, catwoman :
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Same is here D_K ,thehandsome, catwoman
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| 100. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 12:22 am |
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Quoting catwoman:
this is absolutely ridiculous. when a woman is sick and her husband goes off to another woman, it only shows that the guy is a dick and an asshole. he is betraying his wife when she needs him most. you are completely ignoring the woman's feelings and assuming that the guy always has to have a wife. it's a very sick point of view.
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We are not living in a romantic world cat,as much as i wish it but its not
Tell me about the percentage of men that is this stiuation,of his wife long time sickness will be devoted to her and wont even cheat her with another woman ?!
How many men will not satisfy their sexual desires in any way for a life time and be loyal to theier wives ?
There will be just 2 options,
Men will only be allowed to 1 wife,and in this case either he cheat on her ''then he will technically have another woman in his life,so its same as marriage except she doesnt know !'
Or he will kick her out in the streets,and in this case she will have more than her feelings to worry about !
Or,he will be allowed to marry another woman,and keep his wife .
İ am not assuming that the guy always has to have a wife,in İslam,guys cant,and shouldnt satisfy their sexual desires out of marriage
So would you assume men in those conditions wont be satisfying their sexual desires at all ?!
Quoting catwoman:
you are assuming again that a woman HAS to marry, otherwise, her existance is worthless. that is obviously a dreadful, horrible way to think. |
Dear cat,im not assuming again women HAS to marry,i used the marriage concept so we dont have to go into further explanations that i thought were clear.
Women just like me have needs too,and in such war time,big one like i assumed the number of women are treble the number of men,so ...?
PS:we can talk about this more further in PM if you didnt get what i meant.
Quoting catwoman:
it is a "manly" thing, because we live in a patriarchy when men are allowed to do whatever they want, even when that is humiliating or degrading to women. they are the upper cast that holds almost all the power and they are abusing the lower cast (women). |
İ just cant blame it on the men only,i actually blame it on the women too who let them
Who accepted it
Who didnt say 'GET LOST'
Thats why education and independency are very important to women
İt doesnt have to be as you have there,at the age of 18s leave the house,NO
She can even has her own independency inside her home,between her family.
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| 101. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 12:32 am |
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Quoting CANLI: We are not living in a romantic world cat,as much as i wish it but its not
Tell me about the percentage of men that is this stiuation,of his wife long time sickness will be devoted to her and wont even cheat her with another woman ?!
How many men will not satisfy their sexual desires in any way for a life time and be loyal to theier wives ?
There will be just 2 options,
Men will only be allowed to 1 wife,and in this case either he cheat on her ''then he will technically have another woman in his life,so its same as marriage except she doesnt know !'
Or he will kick her out in the streets,and in this case she will have more than her feelings to worry about !
Or,he will be allowed to marry another woman,and keep his wife .
İ am not assuming that the guy always has to have a wife,in İslam,guys cant,and shouldnt satisfy their sexual desires out of marriage
So would you assume men in those conditions wont be satisfying their sexual desires at all ?! |
Yes, it's a sick world, dominated by men and only THEIR wishes and whims, but by making a law that accomodates this type of behavior is also saying that it's ok that men behave this way, that it's justifiable. It's not OK and it's not excusable. Yes, it still may happen, but at least such men should be judged by the society the way they deserve judgment - the society should say that those men are cheaters, liers, assholes.
What's wrong with men not satisfying their sexual wishes? Plenty women every day go without satisfyiing their sexual desires and tehy survive. Men can do the same thing.
Quoting CANLI: Dear cat,im not assuming again women HAS to marry,i used the marriage concept so we dont have to go into further explanations that i thought were clear.
Women just like me have needs too,and in such war time,big one like i assumed the number of women are treble the number of men,so ...? |
But Canli, you are again approving animalistic behavior and not standing on the side of principles. First of all - there you have a good argument agains the war . Second of all, if two people marry, they should be faithful to each other, there's no excuse to this.
Quoting CANLI: İ just cant blame it on the men only,i actually blame it on the women too who let them
Who accepted it
Who didnt say 'GET LOST'
Thats why education and independency is very important to women
İt doesnt have to be as you have there,at the age of 18s leave the house,NO
She can even her own independency inside her home,between her family. |
That is true, but also cosider that if you are an oppressed class, you don't have the kind of skills that are necessary to fight the stronger class. Many of these women are taught by their parents taht they have to be obedient to their husbands. How can you come out as a strong, feminist woman from this kind of home? So I agree with you Canli, but I also think that the system has to be abolished and fought against most of all and then we can judge women fairly for allowing men to abuse them.
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| 102. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:10 am |
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Quoting catwoman:
Yes, it's a sick world, dominated by men and only THEIR wishes and whims, but by making a law that accomodates this type of behavior is also saying that it's ok that men behave this way, that it's justifiable. It's not OK and it's not excusable. Yes, it still may happen, but at least such men should be judged by the society the way they deserve judgment - the society should say that those men are cheaters, liers, assholes.
What's wrong with men not satisfying their sexual wishes? Plenty women every day go without satisfyiing their sexual desires and tehy survive. Men can do the same thing.
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That will take us from the argument why its allowed in İslam to the one why men are like this !
And that my dear cat...i cant answer !
Quoting catwoman:
But Canli, you are again approving animalistic behavior and not standing on the side of principles. First of all - there you have a good argument agains the war . Second of all, if two people marry, they should be faithful to each other, there's no excuse to this. |
But we are actually talking about something hypothetically,like Armageddon ''Allah forbidden''
Not any just war,so this cases not everyday cases also,and only then its allowed to have another wife !
Quoting catwoman:
That is true, but also cosider that if you are an oppressed class, you don't have the kind of skills that are necessary to fight the stronger class. Many of these women are taught by their parents taht they have to be obedient to their husbands. How can you come out as a strong, feminist woman from this kind of home? So I agree with you Canli, but I also think that the system has to be abolished and fought against most of all and then we can judge women fairly for allowing men to abuse them. |
That is true,not easy in such environment to be a strong woman tend to change ,and changing such system wont be easy either.
But it can be acheived only by education,so women can make this change themselves.wont be easy,except when many element help,as in my country stiuation
First by education,women from a domain environment will be at same place with women from normal environment
So they will start to question their stiuation,and by time,they will start not to accept it,and bit by bit will be change,maybe men at those domain enviroment wont like it,even fight ir,but at the end they will have to accept it!
Women in my country at the 20th of the 19th were very much submissive to men.
By time and education,their stiuations become better and better but still,man who has the upper hand.
Till wars times...those women actually took full charge,carry ALL the responsibilities.
You cant find any woman is submissive to man except in none educational enviroment
So in my opinion,if an educated woman complaining anything about man,she has herself only to blame
So education is the key
İ dont want them even to be feminist,i want them to know their rights,and grab it,and not wait to be given !
And that is the problem of women in the İslamic world,they actually dont know their rights!
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| 103. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:17 am |
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You, women, really are talking to much...
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| 104. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:20 am |
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Quoting thehandsom: You, women, really are talking to much... |
Ama always saying useful and educational things,so You 'men' LEARN from US lol
Tamam mı cat canım ?!
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| 105. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:20 am |
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Quoting CANLI: That will take us from the argument why its allowed in İslam to the one why men are like this !
And that my dear cat...i cant answer ! |
Canli, but the thing is that men are not like that because they can't help it, they are like that because they are allowed to be like that! because they have no punishment or consequences of such behavior! There are many examples of societies where men are not like that. And if Koran is the word of God, it's unacceptable for me that God would sanction such a horrible attitude.
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| 107. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:24 am |
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Quoting CANLI: That is true,not easy in such environment to be a strong woman tend to change ,and changing such system wont be easy either.
But it can be acheived only by education,so women can make this change themselves.wont be easy,except when many element help,as in my country stiuation
First by education,women from a domain environment will be at same place with women from normal environment
So they will start to question their stiuation,and by time,they will start not to accept it,and bit by bit will be change,maybe men at those domain enviroment wont like it,even fight ir,but at the end they will have to accept it!
Women in my country at the 20th of the 19th were very much submissive to men.
By time and education,their stiuations become better and better but still,man who has the upper hand.
Till wars times...those women actually took full charge,carry ALL the responsibilities.
You cant find any woman is submissive to man except in none educational enviroment
So in my opinion,if an educated woman complaining anything about man,she has herself only to blame
So education is the key
İ dont want them even to be feminist,i want them to know their rights,and grab it,and not wait to be given !
And that is the problem of women in the İslamic world,they actually dont know their rights! |
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| 108. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:24 am |
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Quoting catwoman: Quoting CANLI: That will take us from the argument why its allowed in İslam to the one why men are like this !
And that my dear cat...i cant answer ! |
Canli, but the thing is that men are not like that because they can't help it, they are like that because they are allowed to be like that! because they have no punishment or consequences of such behavior! There are many examples of societies where men are not like that. And if Koran is the word of God, it's unacceptable for me that God would sanction such a horrible attitude. |
But cat,you are not Muslims there,and you dont apply İslam rules too
And STİLL cheating rate between men is very much high...so what is the reason for that ?!
Maybe there are many examples also,of course men not all same,but what percentage ?!
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| 109. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:25 am |
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Quoting catwoman:
you should listen and try to learn... if you can of course :-S |
PS:no offence guys we are just kidding
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| 110. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:34 am |
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Quoting CANLI: But cat,you are not Muslims there,and you dont apply İslam rules too
And STİLL cheating rate between men is very much high...so what is the reason for that ?!
Maybe there are many examples also,of course men not all same,but what percentage ?! |
Yes, Islam is not applied there and what you see is actually that nobody argues that men "need 4 wives" - because it sounds ridiculous to them. So you see the power of socialization and culture. If the culture makes it acceptable, people do it. If the culture makes it unacceptable, people don't do it.
Most of the world.. like 99% is patriarchial. That is - men hold the power, women are the lower class, who is subordinate to men. We don't really have any examples of countries that are not patriarchal, but what we have is some societies going through a transformation from more patriarchal to less patriarchal and what we observe, is that whem the dominant class - men - is held responsible and accountable for their behavior, they stop doing what is wrong. For example, in the US men in the 60s used to expect their wives to cook and clean for them, but after the feminist revolution, this attitude largely has changed and men cook and clean for themselves now and they NOW find it to be completely normal.
Unopposed power will lead to oppression. When men hold the power, they will oppress women. If women stand up and speak up and fight against it, men back off.
50 years ago, it was unthinkable for a man to be a feminist and stand up for women's rights. These days there are many men who criticize patriarchy and speak up for justice. They will tell you that there's no such thing that men can't control their sexual feelings or that men can't live up to basic human values.
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| 111. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 01:56 am |
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''what you see is actually that nobody argues that men "need 4 wives" - because it sounds ridiculous to them.''
Because they can have more than 4,so of course its ridiculous !
Well cat,from what i see arround us in the world,not just the İslamic world,but yours of course tells me differently
İf men in İslam can have up to 4 wives with certain conditions,but they dont follow those conditions and try to have it,and non Muslim men doing same under different name
Made me wonder about their reasons !
Polygamy not much in my country,but its spreading wide in Gulf countries and Saudi Arabia
So is it because the low stiuations of women there,and richness of the men ?!
But why is it relevant ?
But also,what about West?
Most women are educated,with open mind,so... why ?
İ actually dont know.
Here,i found this,seems Polygamy is not an İslamic thing only
Jewish Polygamy
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| 112. |
09 Mar 2008 Sun 03:54 am |
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Quoting CANLI: Because they can have more than 4,so of course its ridiculous ! |
you mean they can have more then 4 women at the same time? (I assume you don't mean wives.. ) If there's a guy who's playing games with four different women... that's a completely different thing than when a society approves that a man has four wives.. don't you think?
Quoting CANLI: Well cat,from what i see arround us in the world,not just the İslamic world,but yours of course tells me differently |
what do you see around the world, I don't know what you mean here..
Quoting CANLI: İf men in İslam can have up to 4 wives with certain conditions,but they dont follow those conditions and try to have it,and non Muslim men doing same under different name
Made me wonder about their reasons ! |
I again, don't understand what you mean here. How are non-muslim men trying to have four wives?
Quoting CANLI: Polygamy not much in my country,but its spreading wide in Gulf countries and Saudi Arabia
So is it because the low stiuations of women there,and richness of the men ?! |
yes, that's what I think - very low situation of women, overwhelming patriarchy and a culture that sanctions such behavior instead of punishing it.
Quoting CANLI: But why is it relevant ?
But also,what about West?
Most women are educated,with open mind,so... why ?
İ actually dont know. |
what specifically are you referring to about the west? as I said, there's also patriarchy in the west. it's actually a much more insidious patriarchal system. what happens in the west is that men hold 90% of the power in the society, they control and dominate everything that's significant and influencial, they propagate a mentality that puts women in a role of a sex object that's only as valuable as it is useful for the man's pleasure and then they say: "but you, as an individual are free to do whatever you want", "you are free to reject this system, but of course you know the consequences", "I'm not responsible for your lower position, because you can choose not to be part of this system".
yeah, basically there's patriarchy in the west. men control and dominate everything. the difference is that a woman, if she's strong and thoughtful enough, CAN leave teh system, she won't be at the mercy of her husband if she chooses to leave him or to not have him.
Quoting CANLI: Here,i found this,seems Polygamy is not an İslamic thing only
Jewish Polygamy |
yes, polygamy is not only an islamic thing, but today it's mainly practiced in islam. all the other developed, civilized nations abandoned this idea as barbaric.
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| 113. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 01:30 am |
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To make long post short,
İ was refering to what you said,compairing East and west,and men behaviour.
To me,at the bottem of it,men having more than 1 woman
İn İslam,even there are limitation,and conditions to have more than 1 wife,but they are skipping them to have more 1 woman..'not all men of course'
And in West,they are doing same also,but outside marriage,they dont marry more than 1 but they have afairs,so the result is same,they are having more than 1 woman ''again not all men''
So,my question wasnt actually directing to you personally,it was wondering about the behaviour
Why cant they just be with 1 woman ?!
İf they dont love her,dont want her,leave her...but dont fool her with others!
Loving her,then why looking at others ?!
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| 114. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 12:51 pm |
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So, Canli, what you're trying to say is that in all guys - be it Muslims or non-Muslims, want more than one woman but Muslims have some laws and responsibilities to obey doing so, while non-Muslims are free to do whatever they want without having to obey any rules? That is, if a Muslim guy wants to have sex with more than one woman, he has to marry her and provide for her. If a non-Muslim guy wants to have sex with more than one woman, he has no responsibilities towards her?
I'm sorry if I missed you point but that's how I understand your post. If it is what you meant, then I cannot refrain from commenting on it.
This way of thinking only shows that you are used to perceiving women as not being able to make choices. I have no idea what it is like in Islam, but from what I read or hear, a woman has little choice if her husband wants to marry again. True, you may reply that non-Muslim women have little choice when their husbands want to cheat on them. However, can a Muslim woman divorce her husband if he remarries? Non-Muslim women can do it - infidelity is enough to get a divorce.
Looking at things the other way - women who decide to sleep with a man do not always (I believe I should say rarely) want to marry him. You may not like or approve of such conduct, but it is a fact - women do have their needs too and they are free to provide for them. Islam seems to be more in favour of men than omen in this respect. Men can have the need to have more than one woman but women cannot have more than one men. Of course, I do understand that it is preferred not to have more than one. But preferred and applied are two different things.
It is a fact that women in non-Muslim countries have more personal freedom. They don't need anybody's consent to live the life they want. Non-educated women are able to find a job and they don't need to be their brother's burden or a live-in prostitute for their husbands. I can't agree that women have to become prostitutes to provide for themselves. Do you actually know that some women do it because they want it not because they have to? Developed countries have vacancies for unskilled labourers - production lines, housekeeping etc. So saying that the street is their last resort is a bit of an exaggeration.
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| 115. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 04:14 pm |
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Actually,that wasnt exactly what i meant,
First to be fair, let's not say all guys,let's eliminate this with the percentage of men who already doing so,
The Muslim men who are married to more than to 1 woman,and the men who are having double affairs.
İm saying,when it is in İslam marrying another women should be for some reasons and with some conditions,but most men who are marrying a second wife dont even have those excuses,and just using it to marry another woman !
An in the other hand,non muslims doing the same thing but not by marriage 'because its not allowed' but by having another afair,so the result in the end he is having another woman in his life also.
İ wasnt refering to whom is carrying responsibility and wether he is carrying it r not.
Second,you got it wrong,women in İslam have the choice whether to accept her husband marrying another woman or not.
İt wont stop him also of course,but one of the conditions in the second marrige that he must inform his first wife about it BEFORE remarrying,and its her choice,if she accept that he will marry again and she be still his wife,or to have the divorce,and leave him.
So actually,YES she can divorce him if he remarry,its her right to do it by İslam rules.
And normally,women dont have more than 1 relation,i am aware of course that women do cheat too,so that means they do have more than 1 man ,but still its very minor percentage of women who do so
So wehther she is married or in a relationship ,she mostly be faithful to one man.
İts happening with Muslim women,and non Muslim women also
And i didnt say ALL non educated women would live prostitute life,that was the extream of course,or an exaggeration ,still some also did,but surelly you also cant deny life wont be easy for none educated women,even if they work,their income wont provide an easy life for them
But of course knowing that she will always have the financial support,wehther she is working or not,wether she used it or not,would make it lots easier so,as you say she wouldnt have to live under mercy for a husband she is not comfortable with.
İ agree that women in West ''not non Muslims women,because our Christians women in the East are same as Muslims..its Traditions matter also'' have freedom than women in East.
But,as for Muslim women,if they 'Men and women' follow the rules of İslam,women would be free too.
So,she would be free to marry who she wants,and divorce him if she wants ' and society wont be looking bad at her,because its her right by İslam'
And remarry again if she wants.
Women can satisfy their needs also in the concept of marriage.
İts not just İslamic thing,but having affairs out of marriage is a sin in all religions,so we dont see it as freedom.
So i actually cant say that its women right to become prostitutes,it would be like saying its the thief right to be a theif !
But actually,who is not free is the Christian women,you see,in Christianity,its not allowed to get divorce,and who get it is rejected from church ''in my country its this way,we are Orthodocs here'' and if she got the divorce in civilian courts ''asking to be divorced accourding to Muslims rules'' she wont be able to remarry again in church
So,...she is hocked !
Anyway,Muslims or non Muslims,women still have way to gain their rights!
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| 116. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 04:30 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
Second,you got it wrong,women in İslam have the choice whether to accept her husband marrying another woman or not.
İt wont stop him also of course,but one of the conditions in the second marrige that he must inform his first wife about it BEFORE remarrying,and its her choice,if she accept that he will marry again and she be still his wife,or to have the divorce,and leave him.
So actually,YES she can divorce him if he remarry,its her right to do it by İslam rules.
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CANLI
You are simply trying to soften the image of some clear set of rules here.
Can you tell me where it is written that women can divorce the husband for husband having a second wife?
Say that your husband informed you and you rejected..can you divorce him for using his 'right' which is clearly stated as a right FOR MEN in Qu'ran?
and also can you explain this clearly from equality of women and men point of view?
Why dont you accept it as saying that women dont have equal rights comparing to men according to Qu'ran?
Most scholars will accept that..
You are trying to defend indefensible here..
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| 117. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 04:39 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: CANLI
You are simply trying to soften the image of some clear set of rules here.
Can you tell me where it is written that women can divorce the husband for husband having a second wife?
Why dont you accept it as saying that women dont have equal rights comparing to men according to Qu'ran?
Most scholars will accept that..
You are trying to defend indefensible here..
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+(100 )!
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| 118. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 04:43 pm |
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That was a fantastic post Canli. Thank you for it. I wasn't aware that Muslim women can decide whether to allow their husbands to remarry or not. That was very informative.
Quoting CANLI:
And i didnt say ALL non educated women would live prostitute life,that was the extream of course,or an exaggeration ,still some also did,but surelly you also cant deny life wont be easy for none educated women,even if they work,their income wont provide an easy life for them
But of course knowing that she will always have the financial support,wehther she is working or not,wether she used it or not,would make it lots easier so,as you say she wouldnt have to live under mercy for a husband she is not comfortable with. |
It's hard to argue that non-educated people have easier life than the educated ones. It goes for both men and women although...in my country teachers make from $430 to $800 a month, depending on the years of teaching while uneducated people in production lines make about $500 a month Call that need to study But, speaking about education, I was surprised to learn from my Norwegian friend that Norway was actually afraid of losing its intellectual level as less and less people decided to study because of high standard of living regardless of the job you do. That's something I'd never expect.
Quote: İ agree that women in West ''not non Muslims women,because our Christians women in the East are same as Muslims..its Traditions matter also'' have freedom than women in East.
But,as for Muslim women,if they 'Men and women' follow the rules of İslam,women would be free too.
So,she would be free to marry who she wants,and divorce him if she wants ' and society wont be looking bad at her,because its her right by İslam'
And remarry again if she wants.
Women can satisfy their needs also in the concept of marriage. |
These words are really important and I think they represent what most women here were trying to say (both Muslim and non-Muslim) with not a great success mostly. When we criticise Islam, we don't discuss the core of it - I'd never dare to do it not having enough knowledge - we are criticising the social impact of Islam. How it is applied, not what it bases on. If somebody misinterpreted us (or me if others don't think this way) then I apologise - Canli's post above was exactly my point in all the previous threads.
Quote: İts not just İslamic thing,but having affairs out of marriage is a sin in all religions,so we dont see it as freedom.
So i actually cant say that its women right to become prostitutes,it would be like saying its the thief right to be a theif ! |
You're right, it is a sin in all religions and I do understand your idea about prostitution derives from your religious beliefs. I do not agree with it but I respect your point of view.
Quote: But actually,who is not free is the Christian women,you see,in Christianity,its not allowed to get divorce,and who get it is rejected from church ''in my country its this way,we are Orthodocs here'' and if she got the divorce in civilian courts ''asking to be divorced accourding to Muslims rules'' she wont be able to remarry again in church |
Oh, Christian rules are terrible, I agree absolutely. Still, you can get a legal divorce without the religious one.
It is sad, however, that many women in the past thought their bad marriages to be 'a burden put by God on their shoulders to test their faith.' Perhaps there are women who still think like that, but I don't know them.
(What about Islam, sorry, it just got to my head - if you want a divorce, do you have the religious one and it has a legal value or do you go to a court and it has a religious value?)
Quote: Anyway,Muslims or non Muslims,women still have way to gain their rights! |
Well said Canli
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| 119. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:01 pm |
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Quote:
CANLI
You are simply trying to soften the image of some clear set of rules here.
Can you tell me where it is written that women can divorce the husband for husband having a second wife?
Say that your husband informed you and you rejected..can you divorce him for using his 'right' which is clearly stated as a right FOR MEN in Qu'ran?
and also can you explain this clearly from equality of women and men point of view?
Why dont you accept it as saying that women dont have equal rights comparing to men according to Qu'ran?
Most scholars will accept that..
You are trying to defend indefensible here..
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Where it written....i will have to look it up,ask someone who knows,because im not İmam you know
Of course i can have divorce if he marry another women..
İts his right to marry another woman dear,but NOT his right to keep me !
This is MY choice,if i accept it or not!
So,YES,by the book,i can have the divorce.
You want me to accept what i dont feel it,or what i dont live it ?!
For me...if the husband want to marry another woman,then that means he doesnt want his wife,So...why the heck would she want him ?!
So,to me''personally'' talking about having another wife,is not an option, İslam gave me that right and doesnt force me to such marriage so why would i feel not equal ?!
İts same as Non Muslim woman find out about her cheated husband
And ''personally''again i agree with İslam heritage system,for all the reason i've dictated above.
Women dont have any financial responsibilities towards anyone at ALL .
So,if ''these days'' a women accept to be supported by her brother after her father died ,and she is a working woman,her salary goes only to her...no accomodation,no feeding,NOTHİNG...all are provided.
And if she is married,she will have her part of the heritage,her sallary,ALL of it,and STİLL has NO financial responsibilities,her husband will,and MUST provide all.
So...actually,to me,heritage rules also dont provoke that equality
Maybe men should complain
Look handsom,those are women's rights in İslam,women should know them,and use them
İ admit many women dont do this
Many women dont get divorce when husband remarry ''see Gulf countries''
many women help financially in the house expenses,even sometimes their husbands took over their wives salaries
But that is NOT in İslam...
İslam gave us the rights,if we let go of some of them,then its not İslam mistak.
İts ours,and our societies mistake also.
But NO handsom,i dont feel i dont have equal rights with men.
İm not İmam,but i bought a book,i have read about women's rights in İslam,and women's duties,and about men's right in İslam,and men's duties.
So,as long as İslam giving me those rights,i wont let anyone of them,and i will grab what im not given...because its MY RİGHTS
ALLAH giving them to me,so i wont wait for any man to allow or deny !
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| 120. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:18 pm |
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Quoting Daydreamer:
(What about Islam, sorry, it just got to my head - if you want a divorce, do you have the religious one and it has a legal value or do you go to a court and it has a religious value?)
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You know divorce is trouble,its almots same as you have it there some how.
You can get a nice friendly divorce where 2 people make all the finiancial arrangemets,and then they have it civilian with a religious value
You can have the divorce in civilian office
But,if it gets messy,then its in courts but also at the end with religious value.
You cant have religious one alone,how,what do you mean ?!mmmmmm...
İ guess there is something you are messing here
Religious one not seperated than civilian one,you see in the past,people's number was little,they can have religious one only
But now,it cant ...we must have both...actually we just have one,and it have the religious value as well
Both in marriage and divorce.
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| 121. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:18 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
Where it written....i will have to look it up,ask someone who knows,because im not İmam you know
Of course i can have divorce if he marry another women..
İts his right to marry another woman dear,but NOT his right to keep me !
This is MY choice,if i accept it or not!
So,YES,by the book,i can have the divorce.
You want me to accept what i dont feel it,or what i dont live it ?! |
You are an eternal optimistic CANLI..
However, it will be interesting to see IN which sura it is written that ' a woman can divorce her wife because his husband IS USING HIS RIGHT'. (btw, i m clearly stating here that the reason for divorce should be 'husband marrying to another woman'.. )
I am not sure honestly if there is one..
I dont remember right now..
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| 122. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:29 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
You can have the divorce in civilian office
But,if it gets messy,then its in courts but also at the end with religious value.
You cant have religious one alone,how,what do you mean ?!mmmmmm...
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But Canli
As a muslim, you dont need an official marriage..
Are you in favor of official marriage?
You should not.
Because, as you said, Islam gives you all the rights in the case of divorce.
You should not need an official one.
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| 123. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:30 pm |
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handsom,you are making me do researches in İslam and Qur'an,which i didnt do in my entire life.
So i owe you thanks lol
But till i ask,let me ask you,do you know something called 'Khol'a'
İts divorce type,know it ?!
By it Rasul SAV gave the right to a woman to divorce her husband who was one of the very good and religious people,because she dont think he was handsom enough
Even she stated he was a VERY good and tender husband,but she cant be still married to him because of his looks.
So,do you think if a woman want divorce because her husband remarry,its not valid ?!
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| 124. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:35 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom:
But Canli
As a muslim, you dont need an official marriage..
Are you in favor of official marriage?
You should not.
Because, as you said, Islam gives you all the rights in the case of divorce.
You should not need an official one.
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So ? lol
Anyone can claim anyone to be his wife,or to be her husband ?!!!
Are you kidding ?!!!!
Yes,İslam gives me all the rights,but who said a husband will ?!
We are way to smart to trust you 'men' lol
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| 125. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:35 pm |
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Quoting CANLI: handsom,you are making me do researches in İslam and Qur'an,which i didnt do in my entire life.
So i owe you thanks lol
But till i ask,let me ask you,do you know something called 'Khol'a'
İts divorce type,know it ?!
By it Rasul SAV gave the right to a woman to divorce her husband who was one of the very good and religious people,because she dont think he was handsom enough
Even she stated he was a VERY good and tender husband,but she cant be still married to him because of his looks.
So,do you think if a woman want divorce because her husband remarry,its not valid ?! |
If you are doing some searches in islam and Qur'an, it is a good think...is it not?
You are making me to go and read some parts of Qur'an too, which i did read in Turkish many moons ago.
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| 126. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:40 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
So ? lol
Anyone can claim anyone to be his wife,or to be her husband ?!!!
Are you kidding ?!!!!
Yes,İslam gives me all the rights,but who said a husband will ?!
We are way to smart to trust you 'men' lol |
At least I can take this post as religious/islamic rules ARE NOT ENOUGH for protecting women's right Canli.
Or at least, in THESE DAYS, Qu'ran is not enough to protect women's right.
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| 127. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 05:54 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: Quoting CANLI:
So ? lol
Anyone can claim anyone to be his wife,or to be her husband ?!!!
Are you kidding ?!!!!
Yes,İslam gives me all the rights,but who said a husband will ?!
We are way to smart to trust you 'men' lol |
At least I can take this post as religious/islamic rules ARE NOT ENOUGH for protecting women's right Canli.
Or at least, in THESE DAYS, Qu'ran is not enough to protect women's right. |
Yes,making reseaches in İslam and in Qur'an is good thing
İslamic rules is something,and MEN is something else...
İslamic rules protect my rights,yes...but how can it force the man to give them to me ?!
He will go to HELL if he didnt...ok,good,cool...but would i be waiting that long to take my rights ?!
Religious marriage was ok in the past because people numbers were limited,people know who is married to whom,and who is divorced from whom
They go to İmam,marry them and divorce them,and its easily to see into their rights ...
But now,who knows whom ?!
So OF COURSE i need official marriage,official divorce to prove my rights,which im going to take by İslam rules.
Bana anladın mı ?
or its Beni ?!
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| 128. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 06:21 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: Quoting CANLI:
You can have the divorce in civilian office
But,if it gets messy,then its in courts but also at the end with religious value.
You cant have religious one alone,how,what do you mean ?!mmmmmm...
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But Canli
As a muslim, you dont need an official marriage..
Are you in favor of official marriage?
You should not.
Because, as you said, Islam gives you all the rights in the case of divorce.
You should not need an official one.
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Handsom, an Islamic marriage is a contract. People specify what they expect, what would be grounds for a divorce, what material considerations are expected and so on. When the parties agree to be married they make a contract. This is somewhat of a prenuptial agreement.
As I mentioned before, why don't you go to:
Muslim BB
There are links there to other sites that could answer your questions. I suggest asking your questions where you would get input from perhaps some more equipped to answer your questions, as you are getting into technical areas that Canli has told you she is not prepared to answer, and this is not a religious debate site.
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| 130. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 06:29 pm |
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Quoting alameda:
There are links there to other sites that could answer your questions. I suggest asking your questions where you would get input from perhaps some more equipped to answer your questions, as you are getting into technical areas that Canli has told you she is not prepared to answer, and this is not a religious debate site.
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Well..
I wanted to debate this from its basics Alameda.
I think everybody should know the basics before believing into something..
And as far as the links are concerned, I am not clicking on them.
Because I dont have question marks in my mind regarding what we are talking here.
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| 132. |
10 Mar 2008 Mon 11:27 pm |
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Quoting alameda:
There are links there to other sites that could answer your questions. I suggest asking your questions where you would get input from perhaps some more equipped to answer your questions, as you are getting into technical areas that Canli has told you she is not prepared to answer, and this is not a religious debate site.
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Actually,i was going to suggest to go and ask İmam too,but thanks to alameda,maybe the links,would make it easier
As i said,im not İmam to answer technical things,when i needed to know them,i read about them,but of cours i cant reprovide them im not imam nor hafız,but thanks to our debat,i guess i will be memorizing more sura or even ayat than i do
Btw handsom,nice debating with you .
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| 133. |
11 Mar 2008 Tue 01:50 am |
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Quoting thehandsom: Quoting alameda:
There are links there to other sites that could answer your questions. I suggest asking your questions where you would get input from perhaps some more equipped to answer your questions, as you are getting into technical areas that Canli has told you she is not prepared to answer, and this is not a religious debate site.
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Well..
I wanted to debate this from its basics Alameda.
I think everybody should know the basics before believing into something..
And as far as the links are concerned, I am not clicking on them.
Because I dont have question marks in my mind regarding what we are talking here. |
Here, I will make it easier....
"Turkey strives for 21st century form of Islam
· Move to rewrite sharia law basis and redefine Qur'an
· Fusion of Muslim beliefs and western principles "
Islamic reform
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| 134. |
11 Mar 2008 Tue 10:31 am |
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I recieved a link from a dearest friend !!!
"How to Debate and Frustrate Infidels"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zMsU7FC8KU
ps..I am not insinuating anything..
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| 135. |
11 Mar 2008 Tue 11:02 am |
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Quoting thehandsom: I recieved a link from a dearest friend !!!
'How to Debate and Frustrate Infidels'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zMsU7FC8KU
ps..I am not insinuating anything.. |
Can't stop laughing. It reminds me of so many debates I participated in or read. 
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| 136. |
11 Mar 2008 Tue 06:52 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: I recieved a link from a dearest friend !!!
"How to Debate and Frustrate Infidels"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zMsU7FC8KU
ps..I am not insinuating anything.. |
Me thinks thou doth protest too much. What are you afraid of? If you believe, maybe you'll have to give up some "fun" things?
And just what friends you have handsom, it seems your objective here was to have a eristic debate, instead of a discussion....or did your friend distract you? It appears the objective is to win the debate, which is a prejudicial method, in as much as the point is to win an argument, rather than learning others viewpoints.
This method of wining such a debate is to win at whatever cost, truth be damned! You can make fun of your opponent to belittle them and thus rob them of their credibility. You will get a cheap laugh. It is a diversionary tactic. You don't even have to be truthful.
I don't think Canli or I were aware of the fact there was no dialog here, we thought there was a potential for a real idea and thought exchange.
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| 137. |
11 Mar 2008 Tue 10:21 pm |
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Quoting alameda:
Me thinks thou doth protest too much. What are you afraid of? If you believe, maybe you'll have to give up some "fun" things?
And just what friends you have handsom, it seems your objective here was to have a eristic debate, instead of a discussion....or did your friend distract you? It appears the objective is to win the debate, which is a prejudicial method, in as much as the point is to win an argument, rather than learning others viewpoints.
This method of wining such a debate is to win at whatever cost, truth be damned! You can make fun of your opponent to belittle them and thus rob them of their credibility. You will get a cheap laugh. It is a diversionary tactic. You don't even have to be truthful.
I don't think Canli or I were aware of the fact there was no dialog here, we thought there was a potential for a real idea and thought exchange.
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Alameda,
That link was simply supposed to be a joke.
I already mentioned in the end that there is no insinuation in my post.
I found the link funny and I just wanted to share it..That was all..I did not think it was offensive..(It is not to me. I could have shared this link with my other muslim friends and I am sure we would have laughed at it)
I think the discussion in this thread is already over. I did not want to restart it.
And there WAS a dialog in this thread and I am glad we came this far without getting it blocked.
btw..I am not afraid of anything..
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| 138. |
11 Mar 2008 Tue 10:32 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: I recieved a link from a dearest friend !!!
"How to Debate and Frustrate Infidels"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zMsU7FC8KU
ps..I am not insinuating anything.. |
İf you werent insinuating anything,you wouldnt have posted this link !
İ've spent time and effort debating here,and seeking studies and checking ayat from Qur'an,and all was just a joke to you !
Passing your time .
İm sorry i've spent my time on such joke.
Btw handsom,which of us is the Muslim and which is the kafir ?!
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| 139. |
11 Mar 2008 Tue 10:36 pm |
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Quoting CANLI:
İf you werent insinuating anything,you wouldnt have posted this link !
İ've spent time and effort debating here,and seeking studies and checking ayat from Qur'an,and all was just a joke to you !
Passing your time .
İm sorry i've spent my time on such joke.
Btw handsom,which of us is the Muslim and which is the kafir ?! |
Come on Canli..
I am sure you know 'it is just a joke and I was not insinuating anything'.
And I am sure you very well know that I was not joking during the debate..
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| 140. |
11 Mar 2008 Tue 11:07 pm |
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Quoting thehandsom: .....And there WAS a dialog in this thread and I am glad we came this far without getting it blocked.
btw..I am not afraid of anything.. |
Yes, now you can go back to playing with your "kitten"
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