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Janissaries
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1.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 28 Mar 2008 Fri 11:49 pm

Janissaries:
(I really enjoyed compiling this. I hope you like reading it )

(Yeniçeri) meaning "new soldier", a huge power base in ottoman politics, first models of sobriety in Europe, first proper army in Europe since the Roman Empire at the time;
Impeccable fighters, policemen, custom officers, fire fighters, body guards of sultans, responsible for sultan's hunting dogs, greyhounds and falcons;
"Great corps composed of brave champions of the faith, on which rests the blessing of him who is shadow of god on earth and the consideration of men on earth"

Janissaries was Formed by Sultan Murad I around 1365 (some sources tell that it was before), from non-muslims because, the loyalty and morale of the tribal fighters could not always be trusted.
First Janissary units comprised war captives and slaves. Later on, with sultanMehmet I, recruitment of janissaries was the results of taxation in human form called devshirmeh.

Non-Muslim, usually Christian Balkan boys, taken at birth at first at random, later, by strict selection – to be converted to Islam and trained. Initially they favoured Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians and Albanians (later on Serbs, Russians, Ukrainians), usually selecting about one boy from forty houses, but the numbers could be changed to correspond with the need for soldiers.

They were composed of 165 (later they riched up to 196) units (called ortas) and each unit would have 100 men each (in theory). And they were the best FED army of the time. (Actually, food played a very central role in janissaries life that the commander of each orta called corbaci -soup cook- and as a sign of hic rank he wore a soup ladle from his belt).
Each orta had its own flag, displaying symbols like a lion , a mosque etc.
They wore uniforms of blue cloth and majestic plated white head dress like a giant sleeve, some times decorated with plumes and jewels. (when janissaries bowed their heads at the same time , they were looked like a field of ripe corn, rippling in the breeze.

They had special military band called mehter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehter)
some samples :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd9dl7ISuG8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acffqnNec3I&feature=related)

out of 196 ortas, 60th,66th, 62nd and 63rd were sultans body guards. 64th was responsible for sultans hunting dogs, 69th for falcons.
They were also policemen, fire figthers, custom officials of the capital.
They lived in the barracks between suleymaniye mosque and golden horn. Their supreme commander, 'aga' of the janissaries, lived there in a a palace (it was so splendid that suleyman the magnificent once said :'If i could be Aga of janissaries for just 40 days')
They were paid on Tuesdays, every three month. Grand Vazir would superveise the occasion while janissaries took their salaries inside a leather bag after kissing the Grand vazir's cloak.
And the sultan himself was a member of 61st orta, and he would recieve its payment but return it back!!
And some stats here about the number of janissaries: (from wiki)
1475 6.000
1514 10.156
1680 54.222
1800 109.000

well..This was the nice part so far about janissaries.lol

Altough they were the best army at the time, Janissaries always had interest in changing sultans!
Because simply it meant 'bonus' to them. And in the absence od representative institions like parliment, sometimes, they acted as an equivelant. Some times, they represented the social unrests but at the same time they were manipulated by vezirs or ulemas.

The sound of janissaries overturning their pilav cauldrons meant a munity. (Then, they shouted 'we want the brother' ,' long live the brother')
In 1566, when they did not recieve the bonus, at belgrade, they insulted the corps of suleyman the magnificent. (Grand Vezir sokollu Mehmet pasha might have got to do with the incident as well) And they did not let sultan to enter istanbul until they were twrown coins at them!!

As normally janissaries were formed from non muslims, but the idea of devshirme started to be abandoned later on (starting in 1582 ) And it was completely abandoned in 1703..(the reason for that was because it was a well paid job. They started to accept the sons of Janissaries first and later on all pashas enlisted their servants as janissaries in order to transfer the cost to the state!!)

In the end, pay as well as power caused unrest in janissaries.

They sometimes called sultans back to istanbul by threatining with fires or mutiny. (they forced selim I to abandon the attack on persia in 1514, in 1529 they make suleyman abandon the siege of viena because they wanted to go back to istanbul )
Fire was used from time to time for mutiny and unrest against the sultan

Basically they terrorised Istanbul for a long time but their worst crime was loosing the war in 1792 against russins (they frightened everybody except the enemy)
Then a new army started to emerge called 'Nizami cedit' (by selim III)
Although they showed they were better than janissaries in battle fields, in 1807 May 25th a revolt broke out and Sultan het to dissolve the new army and had to sacrifice some of his closer advisers to janissaries. On 29 of May, they forced sultan and he abdicated in favour of his borther Mustafa IV.

But a pasha (mustafa bayraktar) did not accept this abdication and he took control of istanbul with the aim for restoring Selim III back to reign. He surrounded topkapi and hesitated to go further (because of his respect to sultan). But during this brief stand of, janissaries mutilated Selim III. (his young cousin Mahmud was saved by his servants by escaping through the chimney!!)

And this incident started the reign of mahmud II and of course, Mustafa Bayraktar Pasha become the grand vezir.
But janissaries attacked the palace again in 1808 and grand vezir blew himself up to avoid surrender.
Janissaries hunted down all disbanded nizami cedid soldiers and killed them!! For weeks Istanbul was in fire..

However, Mahmud II had the will power and he was a good politician.
During his power, the struggle between sultan and janissaries continued. But in 1826 sultan started to modernize the army.
On 13 June, 20.000 janissaries started to revolt again. They shouted they did not want military exercise of infidels.
But some of the army remained loyal to sultan. Janissaries stormed topkapi again (for the last time) when sultan was not in.
Sultan arrived by boat to his palace and sent messages to everybody in Istanbul to hurry to topkapi to save sultan and caliph. Sultan was so determined, he said that ' Either the janissaries will be masaccared or cats will walk over the ruins of Istanbul'
Istanbul population was ready for the fight.

This was the last battle for janissaries.
They lost this time. Their barracks were set on fire. Many charred bodies found later on.
Every corner of Istanbul was searched and they got killed at the spot (their bodies were left in the middle of Hippodrom for 3 days)
On june 17 1826, janissaries formally abolished.

And this is the end of story.

sources:
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary
-Constantinople: City of the World's Desire, 1453-1924
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/Constantinople-City-Worlds-Desire-1453-1924/dp/0719568803/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206740281&sr=1-1)
And some Turkish sites/blogs which I dont remember the names

2.       janissary
0 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 12:05 am

thanks for the informationIm really affected by ur reseach. I know that I make ur mind busy much. Im sorry if ı took ur time)

yes. my grand grand father was non muslim. and maybe Im greek, polish or something. BUT Im proud of being turkish (citizen of Turkey). I love my country, my flag, my hometown, other ethnic parts of this land, fishes in the water, birds on a tree, flowers on high mountains, the people who love everything about my country...And Elhamdulillah Im muslim. I look forward future and I work for my country to develop better.

3.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 12:13 am

Quoting janissary:

thanks for the informationIm really affected by ur reseach. I know that I make ur mind busy much. Im sorry if ı took ur time)


It was a nice one..
But however, after 1600, I dont think we/turks should be very proud of them though..
But of course, you are free lol

4.       janissary
0 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 12:17 am

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting janissary:

thanks for the informationIm really affected by ur reseach. I know that I make ur mind busy much. Im sorry if ı took ur time)


It was a nice one..
But however, after 1600, I dont think we/turks should be very proud of them though..
But of course, you are free lol



At least u learned how to do a reseach. like giving source


Ne Mutlu Türküm Diyene!

5.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 12:22 am

Quoting janissary:

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting janissary:

thanks for the informationIm really affected by ur reseach. I know that I make ur mind busy much. Im sorry if ı took ur time)


It was a nice one..
But however, after 1600, I dont think we/turks should be very proud of them though..
But of course, you are free lol


At least u learned how to do a reseach. like giving source
Ne Mutlu Türküm Diyene!


I always give the source..And I did not do any search for this speacially.
I just compiled what I read at different times.
So it is not a result of a research..

6.       hubbabubba
16 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 12:29 am

Thank you for this story thehandsome!
I really enjoyed the reading, it is always good to learn something new.

7.       lady in red
6947 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 12:37 am

Very interesting bit of Turkish history - thank you thehandsom

8.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 12:48 am

Quoting janissary:

I look forward future and I work for my country to develop better.



9.       teaschip
3870 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 12:58 am

Very interesting handsom..Great to learn something new...

10.       janissary
0 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 11:50 am

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting janissary:

I look forward future and I work for my country to develop better.





what? didnt u like my english or what?

11.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 11:54 am

Quoting janissary:


what? didnt u like my english or what?



What is wrong with you? If I didn't like your English, I would say so. The reason I post a SMİLE is that I liked what you wrote.

12.       CANLI
5084 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 12:32 pm

Quoting janissary:

thanks for the informationIm really affected by ur reseach. I know that I make ur mind busy much. Im sorry if ı took ur time)

yes. my grand grand father was non muslim. and maybe Im greek, polish or something. BUT Im proud of being turkish (citizen of Turkey). I love my country, my flag, my hometown, other ethnic parts of this land, fishes in the water, birds on a tree, flowers on high mountains, the people who love everything about my country...And Elhamdulillah Im muslim. I look forward future and I work for my country to develop better.



İ like what you wrote too jan

13.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 02:15 pm

That was interesting, Handsome! I thought that name rang a bell so I checked the Polish equivalent and I saw that Janissaries were Janczarzy (reads Yançajı. In XVII and XVIII century, there were Janissary troops in Polish army (two to be precise). They weren't really to fight there, existed as some kind of curiosity, they'd fight only if the place they were in was in danger. However, they had a famous...band using flutes and drums.

14.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 29 Mar 2008 Sat 09:56 pm

Actually before anybody declares how proud to be, lets look at the other side of the coin..
Lets switch greeks and turks:

Imagine greeks have kidnapped a lot of turkish boys and brainwashed them/made them christians and later on, made them kill their turkish parents and families.
what would be your reaction to that then, when that turkish boy comes out and says im proud of what greeks did to me and to my turkish ancestors, im now a proud greek!!

15.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 11:04 am

I think it's a normal law of war - things like incorporating captives into another army used to happen a lot. I'm sure janissaries weren't the only troop created of captives. Don't forget that back then there was no war code like today. Is there a better policy than brainwashing captives and using them to fight for you? Of course, you may want to deal with them another way. You may exterminate all the soldiers you've captured. Barbaric? Old times? Sure, if 1940's Katyn Massacre is a long time ago...

16.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 12:08 pm

Quoting janissary:

thanks for the informationIm really affected by ur reseach. I know that I make ur mind busy much. Im sorry if ı took ur time)

yes. my grand grand father was non muslim. and maybe Im greek, polish or something. BUT Im proud of being turkish (citizen of Turkey). I love my country, my flag, my hometown, other ethnic parts of this land, fishes in the water, birds on a tree, flowers on high mountains, the people who love everything about my country...And Elhamdulillah Im muslim. I look forward future and I work for my country to develop better.



Im proud of being muslim, Turk...Im proud of Turkish history...NE MUTLU TURKUM DIYENE

17.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 07:45 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Actually before anybody declares how proud to be, lets look at the other side of the coin..
Lets switch greeks and turks:

Imagine greeks have kidnapped a lot of turkish boys and brainwashed them/made them christians and later on, made them kill their turkish parents and families.
what would be your reaction to that then, when that turkish boy comes out and says im proud of what greeks did to me and to my turkish ancestors, im now a proud greek!!




Let's look at what was happening in the rest of the world at that time. Let's look at the different treatment of captives and the social potential offered them by the captor society.

The Transatlantic Slave Trade

Later through piracy he took 300 Africans from a Spanish vessel, making it profitable for him to head for the West Indies where he could sell them for money and trade them for provisions. Queen Elizabeth I rewarded him for opening the slave trade for the English by knighting him and giving him a crest that showed a Negro’s head and bust with arms bound secure (Hale [1884] 1967 Vol. 3:6.

Slave Traffic from Africa 1451-1870

1. 1451–1600: beginning (1/4 million)
2. 1601–1700: growing (1.3 million)
3. 1701–1811: peaking (6 million)
4. 1811–1870: declining (2 million)

a Righteous and Progressive idea

In the year 1457, the Council of Cardinals met in Holland and sanctioned, as a righteous and progressive idea, the enslavement of Africans for the purpose of their conversion to Christianity, and to be exploited in the labor market as chattel property.

This devilish scheme speedily gained the sanctimonious blessing of the Pope and became a standard policy of the Roman Catholic Church and later the Protestant churches, enduring three centuries. And thus the ghastly traffic in human misery was given the cloak of respectability and anointed with the oil of Pontifical righteousness in Jesus' name. And so, the slave trade began, inaugurating an era that stands out as the most gruesome and macabre example of man's disregard for the humanity of man.

18.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 07:52 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting janissary:

thanks for the informationIm really affected by ur reseach. I know that I make ur mind busy much. Im sorry if ı took ur time)

yes. my grand grand father was non muslim. and maybe Im greek, polish or something. BUT Im proud of being turkish (citizen of Turkey). I love my country, my flag, my hometown, other ethnic parts of this land, fishes in the water, birds on a tree, flowers on high mountains, the people who love everything about my country...And Elhamdulillah Im muslim. I look forward future and I work for my country to develop better.



İ like what you wrote too jan



Me too

19.       catwoman
8933 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 09:08 pm

Quoting alameda:

Let's look at what was happening in the rest of the world at that time. Let's look at the different treatment of captives and the social potential offered them by the captor society.


I find this to be a very disturbing comment. Here we have a conversation about something rather horrible and in your comment you are basically changing the topic of discussion and saying that as long as someone else is doing something worse, the first action is justified. This pretty much goes along your general lack of criticism of Islam and Turkey and never confronting the real issue. Very dreadful.

20.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 09:25 pm

Quoting alameda:

Quoting thehandsom:

Actually before anybody declares how proud to be, lets look at the other side of the coin..
Lets switch greeks and turks:

Imagine greeks have kidnapped a lot of turkish boys and brainwashed them/made them christians and later on, made them kill their turkish parents and families.
what would be your reaction to that then, when that turkish boy comes out and says im proud of what greeks did to me and to my turkish ancestors, im now a proud greek!!




Let's look at what was happening in the rest of the world at that time. Let's look at the different treatment of captives and the social potential offered them by the captor society.

The Transatlantic Slave Trade

Later through piracy he took 300 Africans from a Spanish vessel, making it profitable for him to head for the West Indies where he could sell them for money and trade them for provisions. Queen Elizabeth I rewarded him for opening the slave trade for the English by knighting him and giving him a crest that showed a Negro’s head and bust with arms bound secure (Hale [1884] 1967 Vol. 3:6.

Slave Traffic from Africa 1451-1870

1. 1451–1600: beginning (1/4 million)
2. 1601–1700: growing (1.3 million)
3. 1701–1811: peaking (6 million)
4. 1811–1870: declining (2 million)

a Righteous and Progressive idea

In the year 1457, the Council of Cardinals met in Holland and sanctioned, as a righteous and progressive idea, the enslavement of Africans for the purpose of their conversion to Christianity, and to be exploited in the labor market as chattel property.

This devilish scheme speedily gained the sanctimonious blessing of the Pope and became a standard policy of the Roman Catholic Church and later the Protestant churches, enduring three centuries. And thus the ghastly traffic in human misery was given the cloak of respectability and anointed with the oil of Pontifical righteousness in Jesus' name. And so, the slave trade began, inaugurating an era that stands out as the most gruesome and macabre example of man's disregard for the humanity of man.



thnaks for your great post...

21.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 09:26 pm

I just wonder what that had to do with the topic?

22.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 09:26 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

Let's look at what was happening in the rest of the world at that time. Let's look at the different treatment of captives and the social potential offered them by the captor society.


I find this to be a very disturbing comment. Here we have a conversation about something rather horrible and in your comment you are basically changing the topic of discussion and saying that as long as someone else is doing something worse, the first action is justified. This pretty much goes along your general lack of criticism of Islam and Turkey and never confronting the real issue. Very dreadful.



when western did anything,u call it ''True'', when Turkish did same thing,u call it ''false''

23.       catwoman
8933 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 09:38 pm

Quoting Lapinkulta:

when western did anything,u call it ''True'', when Turkish did same thing,u call it ''false''


No, I don't. You are not listening.

24.       lady in red
6947 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 09:46 pm

Quoting Lapinkulta:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

Let's look at what was happening in the rest of the world at that time. Let's look at the different treatment of captives and the social potential offered them by the captor society.


I find this to be a very disturbing comment. Here we have a conversation about something rather horrible and in your comment you are basically changing the topic of discussion and saying that as long as someone else is doing something worse, the first action is justified. This pretty much goes along your general lack of criticism of Islam and Turkey and never confronting the real issue. Very dreadful.



when western did anything,u call it ''True'', when Turkish did same thing,u call it ''false''



Sorry - not sure I see the relevance of this comment to catwoman's post. :-S

25.       alameda
3499 posts
 30 Mar 2008 Sun 10:14 pm

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

Let's look at what was happening in the rest of the world at that time. Let's look at the different treatment of captives and the social potential offered them by the captor society.



I find this to be a very disturbing comment. Here we have a conversation about something rather horrible and in your comment you are basically changing the topic of discussion and saying that as long as someone else is doing something
worse, the first action is justified. This pretty much goes along your general lack of criticism of Islam and Turkey and never confronting the real issue. Very dreadful.



Not at all catwoman, in order to get a proper view of events one should consider the larger context they are relevant to. Handsom has spoken about something happening in a part of the world at a time. I am showing what else was going on at that same time. It is a matter of context."

2 : the interrelated conditions in which something exists or occurs : environment, setting "

context

My comment was not a criticism, or was it to condone, it was simply to point out the historical context.

26.       karpusqueen
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 12:25 am

Quoting alameda:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting janissary:

thanks for the informationIm really affected by ur reseach. I know that I make ur mind busy much. Im sorry if ı took ur time)

yes. my grand grand father was non muslim. and maybe Im greek, polish or something. BUT Im proud of being turkish (citizen of Turkey). I love my country, my flag, my hometown, other ethnic parts of this land, fishes in the water, birds on a tree, flowers on high mountains, the people who love everything about my country...And Elhamdulillah Im muslim. I look forward future and I work for my country to develop better.



İ like what you wrote too jan




Me too



And I liked it too - straight from the heart

27.       catwoman
8933 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 12:46 am

Quoting alameda:

Not at all catwoman, in order to get a proper view of events one should consider the larger context they are relevant to. Handsom has spoken about something happening in a part of the world at a time. I am showing what else was going on at that same time. It is a matter of context."

2 : the interrelated conditions in which something exists or occurs : environment, setting "

My comment was not a criticism, or was it to condone, it was simply to point out the historical context.


I am not sure why handsom made this post in the first place, but probably to shed some light on the origin of janissary's nickname. Quite strange why someone would choose this nickname, knowing the meaning of it, don't you think?
I suppose that was the purpose of this thread and not to examine the past and its social contexts (BTW, please, I am not that ignorant to need your links with the meaning of this word!!!).

28.       catwoman
8933 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 12:49 am

Quoting karpusqueen:

Quoting alameda:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting janissary:

thanks for the informationIm really affected by ur reseach. I know that I make ur mind busy much. Im sorry if ı took ur time)

yes. my grand grand father was non muslim. and maybe Im greek, polish or something. BUT Im proud of being turkish (citizen of Turkey). I love my country, my flag, my hometown, other ethnic parts of this land, fishes in the water, birds on a tree, flowers on high mountains, the people who love everything about my country...And Elhamdulillah Im muslim. I look forward future and I work for my country to develop better.



İ like what you wrote too jan



Me too



And I liked it too - straight from the heart


Knowing how nationalistic he is, I find it to be really naive to like what he said because "it came from his heart".. :-S

29.       karpusqueen
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 12:50 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

Let's look at what was happening in the rest of the world at that time. Let's look at the different treatment of captives and the social potential offered them by the captor society.


Quoting catwoman:


I find this to be a very disturbing comment. Here we have a conversation about something rather horrible and in your comment you are basically changing the topic of discussion and saying that as long as someone else is doing something worse, the first action is justified.



Alameda has already explained why she responded to Handsom's subject in the way she did and I agree that it had relevance. It's not about justifying a terrible action by giving examples of others, it's not that simplistic.

Quoting catwoman:


This pretty much goes along your general lack of criticism of Islam and Turkey and never confronting the real issue. Very dreadful.



This is not a very nice thing to say. There is no rule that says that members should criticise Islam and Turkey as a prerequisite of their membership,is there? Of course not, although I think some members think that is all this site is for. This is dredging up the same old accusations catwoman and has nothing at all to do with the topic. It is more of a personal judgement(I'm trying very hard not to use the word attack) of another member.

There are many people who read these threads but never post . They read the threads to learn. The learning process is much more enriching if the diet is more varied i.e. not all one way traffic. There is always more than one side to a story and a good debate should highlight these. Some people even put forward another side simply for the sake of the debate and not because it might be something they absolutely believe in . . . it's called playing Devil's Advocate, I'm sure you've heard of this.

Handsom's information was indeed very interesting and I have learned facts from him and Alameda. However, I learned something far more valuable from Janissary on this thread.

Thank you Janissary.

30.       karpusqueen
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 01:07 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting karpusqueen:

Quoting alameda:

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting janissary:

thanks for the informationIm really affected by ur reseach. I know that I make ur mind busy much. Im sorry if ı took ur time)

yes. my grand grand father was non muslim. and maybe Im greek, polish or something. BUT Im proud of being turkish (citizen of Turkey). I love my country, my flag, my hometown, other ethnic parts of this land, fishes in the water, birds on a tree, flowers on high mountains, the people who love everything about my country...And Elhamdulillah Im muslim. I look forward future and I work for my country to develop better.



İ like what you wrote too jan



Me too



And I liked it too - straight from the heart


Knowing how nationalistic he is, I find it to be really naive to like what he said because "it came from his heart".. :-S



So I'm naive in your eyes and it makes you puke. Hope you feel better for it

31.       catwoman
8933 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 01:09 am

Quoting karpusqueen:

This is not a very nice thing to say. There is no rule that says that members should criticise Islam and Turkey as a prerequisite of their membership,is there? Of course not, although I think some members think that is all this site is for. This is dredging up the same old accusations catwoman and has nothing at all to do with the topic. It is more of a personal judgement(I'm trying very hard not to use the word attack) of another member.

There are many people who read these threads but never post . They read the threads to learn. The learning process is much more enriching if the diet is more varied i.e. not all one way traffic. There is always more than one side to a story and a good debate should highlight these.


What is so wrong with saying that "it goes along with your general lack of criticism of Islam and Turkey"? It's a statement, not an attack. There's nothing personal or false about this statement.
No, sure there is no rule, although when we discuss issues like "honor killing" or nationalism, surely one would expect some criticism of it, which certain people never have... it's a very interesting thing! I sure can point this out, don't you think?
Some people read the forum but don't post? Therefore, we are all supposed to follow your agenda..?

Quoting karpusqueen:

Some people even put forward another side simply for the sake of the debate and not because it might be something they absolutely believe in . . . it's called playing Devil's Advocate, I'm sure you've heard of this.


No.. not really. Can you send me a link with the meaning?

32.       catwoman
8933 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 01:09 am

Quoting karpusqueen:

So I'm naive in your eyes and it makes you puke. Hope you feel better for it


This is probably the root of the problem in conversations with you. I didn't say that YOU are naive and YOU make me puke, but YOUR STATEMENT... does this make it more clear?
It's not meant as anything personal. Sorry if it did.

33.       karpusqueen
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 01:19 am

Quoting catwoman:


Quoting karpusqueen:

Some people even put forward another side simply for the sake of the debate and not because it might be something they absolutely believe in . . . it's called playing Devil's Advocate, I'm sure you've heard of this.


No.. not really. Can you send me a link with the meaning?



Sorry you are confusing me with someone else

34.       catwoman
8933 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 01:23 am

Quoting karpusqueen:

Sorry you are confusing me with someone else


Ooops... sorry... hard not to confuse you two! Just kidding by the way!

35.       karpusqueen
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 01:25 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting karpusqueen:

So I'm naive in your eyes and it makes you puke. Hope you feel better for it


Quoting catwoman:


This is probably the root of the problem in conversations with you.


???

Quoting catwoman:


I didn't say that YOU are naive and YOU make me puke, but YOUR STATEMENT...


Isn't that the same thing? I made the statement.

Thanks for the apology anyway


36.       karpusqueen
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 01:25 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting karpusqueen:

Sorry you are confusing me with someone else


Ooops... sorry... hard not to confuse you two! Just kidding by the way!



Ha ha I was expecting such a reply

Alameda is the clever one

37.       catwoman
8933 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 01:27 am

Quoting karpusqueen:

Isn't that the same thing? I made the statement.

Thanks for the apology anyway


Of course it's not the same thing! Just because you make a statement that I find strange, doesn't make YOU as a person strange! I may still like and respect you as a person.

38.       CANLI
5084 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 03:33 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting alameda:

Let's look at what was happening in the rest of the world at that time. Let's look at the different treatment of captives and the social potential offered them by the captor society.


I find this to be a very disturbing comment. Here we have a conversation about something rather horrible and in your comment you are basically changing the topic of discussion and saying that as long as someone else is doing something worse, the first action is justified. This pretty much goes along your general lack of criticism of Islam and Turkey and never confronting the real issue. Very dreadful.



Actually,i thought it was clear what alameda meant by her post !
That you cant condemn Türkiye and İslam by that and even to say,one shouldnt be proud of belong to such country !
Her post was implying,that it things were even worse than that in the past
She didnt say she approves or not...she only said,they were NOT the bad guys and others were angels!
Btw,you is generaly speaking

Beside,i dont see anything wrong if she defend Türkiye and İslam,even she provide sources for what she says
She is entitled to her opinion also,or those who criticize only have the freedom of speech!

39.       alameda
3499 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 03:38 am

Quoting catwoman:

I am not sure why handsom made this post in the first place, but probably to shed some light on the origin of janissary's nickname. Quite strange why someone would choose this nickname, knowing the meaning of it, don't you think?




Hmmm and just why do you think he did that? Are you inferring negative connotations of Janissary's name? That is a matter of perception. As you may have noticed, they were a formidable power. Considering the Janissaries impact on the world in being the first standing army since Roman times, the power and status they had, I do not find it any more strange than calling oneself catwoman, Deli-Kizen or thehandsom.


Quoting catwoman:

......(BTW, please, I am not that ignorant to need your links with the meaning of this word!!!).



Perhaps you do not need linguistic links, but as this a language site; and there are many here who seek to improve their English, it would be helpful in learning words, wouldn't you agree?

40.       CANLI
5084 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 03:48 am

Quoting catwoman:


I am not sure why handsom made this post in the first place, but probably to shed some light on the origin of janissary's nickname. Quite strange why someone would choose this nickname, knowing the meaning of it, don't you think?


Actually janissaries were strong Soldiers,and had protected the countries from many dangerouse
Even rescue Muslims countries along with the people from mongols taking off
Beside,choosing the nickname i call it personal freedom.
But im not sure what to call the aim of the thread either!

41.       CANLI
5084 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 04:04 am

Quoting thehandsom:

Actually before anybody declares how proud to be, lets look at the other side of the coin..
Lets switch greeks and turks:

Imagine greeks have kidnapped a lot of turkish boys and brainwashed them/made them christians and later on, made them kill their turkish parents and families.
what would be your reaction to that then, when that turkish boy comes out and says im proud of what greeks did to me and to my turkish ancestors, im now a proud greek!!



So Turk shouldnt be proud to be Turk !
İnteresting !

Or should we seperate between, pure blood Turk,and none pure blood Turk
First should be proud of being Turk,and secound should be ashamed ?!
Or both should be ashamed ?!
İ dont REALLY get it...!
What would be your pick then ?!

42.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 08:32 am

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting thehandsom:

Actually before anybody declares how proud to be, lets look at the other side of the coin..
Lets switch greeks and turks:

Imagine greeks have kidnapped a lot of turkish boys and brainwashed them/made them christians and later on, made them kill their turkish parents and families.
what would be your reaction to that then, when that turkish boy comes out and says im proud of what greeks did to me and to my turkish ancestors, im now a proud greek!!



So Turk shouldnt be proud to be Turk !
İnteresting !

janissaries havent educate for killing ppl, they were educated for protecting country...


another point is that century was almost terrible for many nations except for ottomans...cutting head was popular for every people and trade of slave was also usual and ottoman did it as well and gave them priviliges and benefits...
In return for their loyalty and their fervour in war, Janissaries gained privileges and benefits. They received a cash salary, received booty during wartime and enjoyed a high living standard and respected social status.


one Turkish proverb: '' doğduğun değil doydugun yer''(I think I should translate like, u should care about the place where u live,not u born''...


43.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 10:25 am

Quoting alameda:

I do not find it any more strange than calling oneself catwoman, Deli-Kizen or thehandsom.]



Why am I mentioned here? I'm sure you'll say it is just coincedence, but to me it feels like you think the three of us are the same, or something :-S

44.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 10:27 am

Quoting Lapinkulta:

one Turkish proverb: '' doğduğun değil doydugun yer''(I think I should translate like, u should care about the place where u live,not u born''...



This is a nice proverb However, it doesn't really match the way most people use 'Ne mutlu Türküm diyene'. It prooves my point that I made long time ago, that it is time to start saying 'Türkiyeli'. Or at least, that it should be accepted that some people prefer to say it that way.

45.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:43 am

lol so an informative thread becomes grounds for a conflict? A historical fact that janissaries were not devoted Muslims and Ottoman Empire sons was immediately challenged by the shocking statement that I had already posted that such things were not unique to the Ottomans. What followed was a tirade of those who always feel insulted and attacked even if they aren't. The discussion progressed into the usual Cato -like Carthago delenda est, or, in our case I Am a Proud Turk and Love My Country.

What makes me wonder is why do they have to repeat it over and over again? I thought it was quite normal to love the country you were born and grew up in. Should we all start to do it in every post? If we don't state it over and over again, does it mean we don't? Or is it like a mantra - whenever you start doubting, you go Carthago delenda est and the world is simple again? I've heard that you can't trust those who repeatedly say 'I am trustworthy." People who believe in something do it, they don't need to talk about it every second or they risk being taken for liers...

46.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 12:14 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting thehandsom:

Actually before anybody declares how proud to be, lets look at the other side of the coin..
Lets switch greeks and turks:

Imagine greeks have kidnapped a lot of turkish boys and brainwashed them/made them christians and later on, made them kill their turkish parents and families.
what would be your reaction to that then, when that turkish boy comes out and says im proud of what greeks did to me and to my turkish ancestors, im now a proud greek!!



So Turk shouldnt be proud to be Turk !
İnteresting !

Or should we seperate between, pure blood Turk,and none pure blood Turk
First should be proud of being Turk,and secound should be ashamed ?!
Or both should be ashamed ?!
İ dont REALLY get it...!
What would be your pick then ?!


I never said 'a Turk shouldnt be proud to be Turk'. did I?
But I agree with you about 'not getting what I was trying to say'.
I was simply trying to show the other side of the coin.
If Turkish/greek does not make sense to you, you can think of isreal/egypt if you like.
Imagine that jews come and take your son away from you, brain wash him/convert him to a jew/and later on, he shouts with all the breath he has in his lungs 'I am so proud to be a jew and and israeli'.
And I was not trying to insinuate anything to anybody at all..
I dont know why you were being so critical about what I wrote!!

47.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 12:30 pm

Quoting CANLI:

Quoting catwoman:


I am not sure why handsom made this post in the first place, but probably to shed some light on the origin of janissary's nickname. Quite strange why someone would choose this nickname, knowing the meaning of it, don't you think?


Actually janissaries were strong Soldiers,and had protected the countries from many dangerouse
Even rescue Muslims countries along with the people from mongols taking off
Beside,choosing the nickname i call it personal freedom.
But im not sure what to call the aim of the thread either!


As I mentioned in my original post, They were a good army in the beginning but everything changed starting around 1600.
They were 'the pests of the state' for last 200 years in ottoman empire.
The aim of the thread was just to write an informative post about the past of Turks. It was not meant to be for a particular person.
I am planing to write more about these historical topics (if I can find time of course).
Haha next topic can be 'harem in topkapi' for example. And I hope, nobody will jump up saying that 'this is written for me' lol lol

48.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 12:34 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

This is a nice proverb However, it doesn't really match the way most people use 'Ne mutlu Türküm diyene'. It prooves my point that I made long time ago, that it is time to start saying 'Türkiyeli'. Or at least, that it should be accepted that some people prefer to say it that way.


This is a nice one actually..
Because, the guy taking the doner knife and attacking english supporters/killing some of them/taken to the court, the first thing he says' Ne mutlu Turkum diyene'.
Guy is killing Hrant Dink, the first comment he says 'Ne mutlu Turkum diyene'.
People are starting to get edgy about those words to be honest .

49.       CANLI
5084 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 01:33 pm

Quoting Daydreamer:

lol so an informative thread becomes grounds for a conflict? A historical fact that janissaries were not devoted Muslims and Ottoman Empire sons was immediately challenged by the shocking statement that I had already posted that such things were not unique to the Ottomans. What followed was a tirade of those who always feel insulted and attacked even if they aren't. The discussion progressed into the usual Cato -like Carthago delenda est, or, in our case I Am a Proud Turk and Love My Country.




İf this what other people think,dont you think he also has the right to answer ?!


Quoting catwoman:


I am not sure why handsom made this post in the first place, but probably to shed some light on the origin of janissary's nickname. Quite strange why someone would choose this nickname, knowing the meaning of it, don't you think?




Quoting Daydreamer:


What makes me wonder is why do they have to repeat it over and over again? I thought it was quite normal to love the country you were born and grew up in. Should we all start to do it in every post? If we don't state it over and over again, does it mean we don't? Or is it like a mantra - whenever you start doubting, you go Carthago delenda est and the world is simple again? I've heard that you can't trust those who repeatedly say 'I am trustworthy." People who believe in something do it, they don't need to talk about it every second or they risk being taken for liers...


Well,i guess they repeat it over and over again,because they hear words like 'you shouldnt be proud of being Turk'' over and over again,and everytime for different reasons,and different ways!
Sometimes it is frankly said,and others its in the meaning of the speech .
But i agree with you,actually,they shouldnt care less,they know who they are,and what history they have,and in my opinion that is ENOUGH!

50.       CANLI
5084 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 01:37 pm

Quoting Lapinkulta:



janissaries havent educate for killing ppl, they were educated for protecting country...

another point is that century was almost terrible for many nations except for ottomans...cutting head was popular for every people and trade of slave was also usual and ottoman did it as well and gave them priviliges and benefits...
In return for their loyalty and their fervour in war, Janissaries gained privileges and benefits. They received a cash salary, received booty during wartime and enjoyed a high living standard and respected social status.



Actually,they had gained priviliges and benefits more than the people of the country,even they ruled some cities!
Had authorities over them,which was must for their time to end.

51.       Lapinkulta
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 02:29 pm

Quoting thehandsom:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

This is a nice proverb However, it doesn't really match the way most people use 'Ne mutlu Türküm diyene'. It prooves my point that I made long time ago, that it is time to start saying 'Türkiyeli'. Or at least, that it should be accepted that some people prefer to say it that way.


This is a nice one actually..
Because, the guy taking the doner knife and attacking english supporters/killing some of them/taken to the court, the first thing he says' Ne mutlu Turkum diyene'.
Guy is killing Hrant Dink, the first comment he says 'Ne mutlu Turkum diyene'.
People are starting to get edgy about those words to be honest .



if an english supporter attack turkish women on the street and swear and show their sexual organ to them, Turkish man would use their knife.

if u live in Turkey and u do many bad things for Turkey, Turkish has right to use their knife...

we use this words everytime not only bad times...ppl in american films say ''god bless USA'' even they were killing ppl...


NE MUTLU TURKUM DIYENE...

52.       janissary
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 02:59 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting Lapinkulta:

one Turkish proverb: '' doğduğun değil doydugun yer''(I think I should translate like, u should care about the place where u live,not u born''...



This is a nice proverb However, it doesn't really match the way most people use 'Ne mutlu Türküm diyene'. It prooves my point that I made long time ago, that it is time to start saying 'Türkiyeli'. Or at least, that it should be accepted that some people prefer to say it that way.



I dont understand ppl who try to find words instead of Turk. is it so bad to be called as "turk"? maybe we should use like "Türkiye'de yaşayan ama etnik kimlik olarak farklı bir kimliği olan, alt kimliğine daha fazla önem veren bir Türkiye cumhuriyeti vatandaşı, takımlardan Fenerbahçeyi, yemeklerden kuru fasulyeyi sever, rakıyı sek içer" it s a bit long but better and more understandable.

53.       lady in red
6947 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 03:01 pm

Quoting CANLI:



Well,i guess they repeat it over and over again,because they hear words like 'you shouldnt be proud of being Turk'' over and over again,and everytime for different reasons,and different ways!
Sometimes it is frankly said,and others its in the meaning of the speech .
But i agree with you,actually,they shouldnt care less,they know who they are,and what history they have,and in my opinion that is ENOUGH!



Isn't the point here not that you shouldn't be proud of being a Turk - or whatever nationality you are - but that being proud shouldn't blind you to the fact that your country's past history is far from pefect and you have to accept it (this applies to most of the world) and no amount of arguing or denying this fact is going to change it!

As an example, comments have been made referring to the British and US (and other countries') slave trade - yes it happened, we have never denied it , yes, we accept it was wrong but it is PAST, GONE, DONE, nothing we can do to go back and change it now. But we can admit that it was wrong and we don't feel affronted with the need to defend ourselves if it is mentioned.

54.       lady in red
6947 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 03:06 pm

Quoting janissary:

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting Lapinkulta:

one Turkish proverb: '' doğduğun değil doydugun yer''(I think I should translate like, u should care about the place where u live,not u born''...



This is a nice proverb However, it doesn't really match the way most people use 'Ne mutlu Türküm diyene'. It prooves my point that I made long time ago, that it is time to start saying 'Türkiyeli'. Or at least, that it should be accepted that some people prefer to say it that way.



I dont understand ppl who try to find words instead of Turk. is it so bad to be called as 'turk'? maybe we should use like 'Türkiye'de yaşayan ama etnik kimlik olarak farklı bir kimliği olan, alt kimliğine daha fazla önem veren bir Türkiye cumhuriyeti vatandaşı, takımlardan Fenerbahçeyi, yemeklerden kuru fasulyeyi sever, rakıyı sek içer' it s a bit long but better and more understandable.



That's quite funny Janiss! Do you think it will catch on? (btw I'm laughing WITH you not AT you just in case you misunderstand!)

55.       CANLI
5084 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 03:11 pm

Quoting lady in red:

Quoting CANLI:



Well,i guess they repeat it over and over again,because they hear words like 'you shouldnt be proud of being Turk'' over and over again,and everytime for different reasons,and different ways!
Sometimes it is frankly said,and others its in the meaning of the speech .
But i agree with you,actually,they shouldnt care less,they know who they are,and what history they have,and in my opinion that is ENOUGH!



Isn't the point here not that you shouldn't be proud of being a Turk - or whatever nationality you are - but that being proud shouldn't blind you to the fact that your country's past history is far from pefect and you have to accept it (this applies to most of the world) and no amount of arguing or denying this fact is going to change it!

As an example, comments have been made referring to the British and US (and other countries') slave trade - yes it happened, we have never denied it , yes, we accept it was wrong but it is PAST, GONE, DONE, nothing we can do to go back and change it now. But we can admit that it was wrong and we don't feel affronted with the need to defend ourselves if it is mentioned.


İ agree with you
But making mistakes in the past didnt deny the thing that France,Britain,or what ever was great Empire!
The case here is a bit different,they face that
'No you are not great ,and shouldnt feel great because you made mistakes in the past!'
So that bring us to same thing again !
''No,we are great,''we are pround, you too had,have,or even will have mistakes !
And it goes on and on again!

56.       janissary
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 03:41 pm

I dont misunderstand anything. I just see what are there under some sentences. but some ppl use closed words and try to offend Turkish ppl.

Great leader M. Kemal Ataturk said "Ne Mutlu Türküm Diyene!" coz he believed turkish nation and saw turkish nation's fight for Independence. that why he wanted every person to be proud of being Turk. He encouraged turks after indepedence war, he made us believe us that we can achieve to built a modern country after ottoman impire. he just meant" just trust urself and dont think I cant do it". he did really great things for turkey. some foreign members might have difficulty to understand it and they can think we exaggerate Ataturk. I just want them compare turkey with iran, iraq, suriye.

about janissaries, someones should understand one thing. I know what my family come from. you dont need to explain to me and try to show me where I come from. and I know what Handsom trying to say to me. BUT Im proud of being Turk. maybe Im not %100 turk if you look at skull. but it s enought to feel being one part of this country for being a Turk. I dont mind what blood I have or what kinds of skull I have and what was my anchestors. my culture is a turkish culture and Elhamdulillah Im muslim.

saying "Ne Mutlu Türküm Diyene" doesnt mean racism. Coz Ataturk was not a racist. he was one of the biggest humanist, just read what he told about Anzaks after Gallipoli war.

57.       alameda
3499 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 06:37 pm

Quoting Deli_kizin:

Quoting alameda:

I do not find it any more strange than calling oneself catwoman, Deli-Kizen or thehandsom.]



Why am I mentioned here? I'm sure you'll say it is just coincedence, but to me it feels like you think the three of us are the same, or something :-S



I just wanted to show some nicks, and so I used ones of the one who started the thread and the admins, of which you are one. I know you are not the same. Maybe I should have put all the admins names in, but for brevity, I only used two.

I hope that clears up any confusion in adding your nick in there.

58.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 08:37 pm

Quoting alameda:

I just wanted to show some nicks, and so I used ones of the one who started the thread and the admins, of which you are one. I know you are not the same. Maybe I should have put all the admins names in, but for brevity, I only used two.

I hope that clears up any confusion in adding your nick in there.



Noooo It just seemed too much a coincedence But I guess I overreacted


59.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 08:41 pm

I don't have time to read it all, but here's to Janissary:

You found a perfect new term Vallahi süper But it should say Galatasaray


Anyway as an explanation: there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying Ne mutlu Türküm diyene, and there is nothing wrong either to be proud of where you come from. Actually, I think it is a good thing. But I hope you understand that someone who is NOT Turkish, does not really want to be named 'Turk'. I love the word Türkiyeli. That doesnt mean that one who is TÜRK has to call himself Türkiyeli. It just means that someone of other ethnicity who lives in Turkey, and who loves Turkey as if it were their own roots, can use it I will be the first to say: Ne mutlu Türkiyeliyim diyene! I am not Turkish, but something tells me that I love your country as dearly as you do, Janis


60.       janissary
0 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:28 pm

Türkiyeliyim this is used only some part of ppl in turkey nowadays it s being populer. I havent problem with words. Everybody is free to use whatever they want. maybe better to say "Türkiye Cumhuriyeti Vatandaşıyım" or "Anadolu'dan geldik" if these wont satisfy someone he or she can use the term I told before.

As a additional knowledge to foreigners on this web site. the vow (Andımız) below is read by primary school students togather in every morning before lessons (I should post this a topic too). it reminded me my childhood

Andımız:

"Türküm, doğruyum, çalışkanım,

İlkem; küçüklerimi korumak, büyüklerimi saymak, yurdumu, milletimi özümden çok sevmektir.

Ülküm; yükselmek, ileri gitmektir.

Ey Büyük Atatürk!

Açtığın yolda, gösterdiğin hedefe durmadan yürüyeceğime ant içerim.

Varlığım Türk varlığına armağan olsun.

Ne mutlu Türküm diyene!"


Andımız!

61.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 31 Mar 2008 Mon 11:35 pm

I remember when I first heard about this, when I still didnt speak Turkish well.

I thought that doğru = haklı. Şaşırdım ve aslında kızdım How could they make children say that they are always 'right', without having had a taste of life, or without teachign them it is good to learn to accept that you can be wrong sometimes too But later I learnt that doğru also had the meaning of just, honest

62.       karpusqueen
0 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 01:37 am

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting karpusqueen:

Isn't that the same thing? I made the statement.

Thanks for the apology anyway


Of course it's not the same thing! Just because you make a statement that I find strange, doesn't make YOU as a person strange! I may still like and respect you as a person.



What do you mean MAY ?

63.       Roswitha
4132 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 05:46 am



http://i-cias.com/e.o/janissaries.htm

64.       catwoman
8933 posts
 01 Apr 2008 Tue 06:00 am

Quoting karpusqueen:

Quoting catwoman:

Quoting karpusqueen:

Isn't that the same thing? I made the statement.

Thanks for the apology anyway


Of course it's not the same thing! Just because you make a statement that I find strange, doesn't make YOU as a person strange! I may still like and respect you as a person.



What do you mean MAY ?


what do you think I mean..?

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