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Report reveals horrors of violence against Turkish women
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220.       femmeous
2642 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 04:36 pm

 

Quoting Deli_kizin

 I read a horrible story of this kind in the newspaper a fews days ago. A Dutch woman had been sexually abused by her elder brother for several years, and her parents KNEW about it!! {#lang_emotions_puking}

 that woman will get a support or even a shelter if shes poor.

and this will not happen to a typical eastern woman, her life ends there even though her life wasnt colorful before. and this is im talking about. the difference. it is painful, i know their lives, i know it, its not just an article i read or statistics i saw. it is a real life, a life in hell. and we just touched the top of an iceberg. it is impossible to solve it without a mentality change.

 

i remember last year ciko said something like "why dont you western feminists do something about that?" why someone else must do it for you? your women - your tragedy - you deal. all i can do is to shout about it. all i can do is to support charity activities.

 

 

 

221.       femmeous
2642 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 04:56 pm

 basically i know those things you wrote about except for how its dealt in morocco.

we too have a thing called namis, but it is only and only related to men, its about their pride or bravery, it is applied to a situation that its a namis to a man when he needs to defend the tribe or country. and it actually has nothing to do with honor killings.

Quoting Deli_kizin

To mind comes a lecture at university I had about 2 weeks ago about honour killings and the concepts of namus and þeref.

 

The lecture was aimed at giving us an insight on how some cultural matters work, and to make us understand them, without having understanding on the concept itself (maybe a Dutch speaker can help me out explaning: begrijpen zonder begrip te hoeven hebben).

 

First, generally anthropologists divide three concepts:

1. Honour killings (physical ´dirt´ on the woman that cannot be cleaned in any other way)

2. Honour related violence (any kind of violence that is related to the concept of personal honour)

3. Blood feud (an honour killing can result in a blood feud)

 

Concepts that are important throughout most of the Islamic world, are namus and þeref. They both mean ´honour´, but the concept is more complex than that to explain, as there is no real counterpart in ´our´ language. Things as namus and þeref are more important in the community than anything else. Status is not relevant as long as you dont have your personal honour, personal selfrespect.

The man´s þeref, is closely linked to the namus-ness of his wife, or any other female family member. The man is supposed to protect (and control) the females of a household, his manly honour and personal integrity have to do with that. You have to be a man and respond to what violence has been done towards you, whether it be defending those who are ´depending on your protection´ or protecting your possessions and your flock. It has to do with an intern idea of cultural values that are part of your self-image, extern as in how other people judge you according to it, and something in between: your behavior.

When the namus-ness of a woman is stained, for example because of having an affair, people will talk about this in the community. The þeref of the husband in that case, will be discredited as well: he has not been able in his manlihood to protect his wife (in case of rape) or to control his wife (in case of adultery). It would seem likely to punish the man with whom the woman had (forced or not) sex with. But.. that could result in a blood feud. This is why generally the woman is the victim of an honourkilling, eventhough she is often not seen as the ´criminal´. But it is a social way of getting rid of the stain, without causing a blood feud.

 

Many people confuse this horrible practice with Islamic law. Honourkillings are not allowed in the framework of Islamic law. Apart from that, it is hard to proove such a thing as adultery really happened anyway: the female has to confess, be pregnant or there have to be 4 male witnesses at that time who did not have the intention to witness such a thing.  But even if proof has been provided, a murder is not allowed within the Islamic law. This is generally a subculture in which local practices play a more important role than religion. It is a concept that is known throughout the whole levant, but one of the reasons that honourkillings occur in TR and not in Marocco, is the difference in community: the maroccan community has the concept of ´bint al-nas´, a daughter of a good family. In case people behave ´unappropriate´, both the girl and the boy are being neglected, thrown out of the family, become outcasts. Nobody wants to have to do something with them and the ´problem´ is solved. In Turkey, where the social cohesion is much stronger (for example more cousin-marriages there than in maghrib), the social control is stronger as well, and so is the gossip and the chance of a mans þeref being stained.. It explains why many honourkillings are extremely brutal, and why the murderes generally do not feel ashamed or wrong: their cultural framework of social cohesion and control in combination with the male þeref, brings them to the belief this is what must be done. Generally younger male family members are chosen because the punishment will be given under youth-law and they are of less economic significance. The ´suicide honourkilling´ where a woman is forced into killing herself, is simply an ´integration´ into the western law-system.

 

I know the article wasnt related to honourkillings really, it just came to my mind, as I found the lecture interesting. But lets hope these mentality ideas change ´bir an önce´. Because though honourkillings are as ´strange´ to us ´foreigners´ as they are to the educated people of the bigger cities of Turkey, domestic violence is something, that I see within the same framework, and that still occurs at large, whether it be educated or not, whether it be in big cities or villages. It is simple another branch of a tree that I think needs to be burnt.

 

 

222.       Trudy
7887 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 05:18 pm

 

Quoting Deli_kizin

The lecture was aimed at giving us an insight on how some cultural matters work, and to make us understand them, without having understanding on the concept itself (maybe a Dutch speaker can help me out explaning: begrijpen zonder begrip te hoeven hebben).

 

 

 Maybe you mean: ´understanding´ (the concept) without accepting it?

223.       libralady
5152 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 05:46 pm

Support Amnesty International - why don´t we as a collective group, support the activities of Amnesty International? 

 

It is not a feminist issue, but a human rights issue.  So come on friends in TC, male of female, let us do something collectively instead of arguing the finer points.  We all agree it is an issue that should not exist in the 21st Centuary.

 

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=10220 Link is not working, so here it is.

224.       TheAenigma
5001 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 06:15 pm

 

Quoting libralady

Support Amnesty International - why don´t we as a collective group, support the activities of Amnesty International? 

 

It is not a feminist issue, but a human rights issue.  So come on friends in TC, male of female, let us do something collectively instead of arguing the finer points.  We all agree it is an issue that should not exist in the 21st Centuary.

 

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=10220 Link is not working, so here it is.

 

 Great idea LL.  I am a big supporter of Amnesty International

(See?  I can agree and be nice sometimes )

225.       cedars
235 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 06:19 pm

 

Quoting femmeous

the worse thing about is that most, i mean the huge majority of those women dont go to police, they dont report it. they stay in a circle of never ending violence. mainly due to the community pressure.

 

There are many reasons why many women are reluctant at going to a police station, at

least in lebanon.

 

For any problem you are having, not just domestic violence, you are going to see

"forms & colors" (as they say in arabic) at the police station, meaning you are only

gonna see a station full of criminals facing them few underpaid, not very well

educated or formed policemen who are under so much stress. The policemen end up

treating good and bad people the same way. For you to file a claim or give a

statement you have to spend a whole day at the station.

 

So usually it is preferable if one doesnt go alone but rather  take a husband or a

father or a brother, cousin, any male relative because one doesnt really want hear a

word that hurts or get treated in a rough way, men deals with it better.

 

The second reason is,in case of rape or abuse, usually the victim is supposed to talk

to a policeMAN since there are not enough policeWomen in service.

 

It is hard for a female victim to explain what she went through to a man sometimes even if he is a medical doctor. I know in France in most police stations one can ask for a

policewomen to talk to in such cases.

What happens in Lebanon usually is that the woman talks to her family so they take her to the doctor who does his report, then one of the family´s male members go to the police.


This of course is done when the offender is not one of the family!

 

As for domestic violence, it is rare at least in the community where I come from. The

reason is not that people are better than others of course but because of a peculiar

social system that defends the woman. A husband refrain from abusing his wife because

he knows he has to deal with her father and brothers also with his own parents and

relatives. Abusing a woman is shamefull and he will be cast out of the community. The

same goes for children, if a man abuses his kids, the uncles (especially from the

maternal side) will defend their nephews/nieces. Woman are not afraid to talk because

they know they have this security that the community is providing also the support, including financial one, from the family.

 

I must add however, honourkilling still exists but it is not very common. The

lebanese law is changed now and it became severe concerning honourkilling and the

criminal is judged several years in prison (donno how much exactly).

 

However people´s mentality concerning honourkilling didnt change a lot, many still

think that the lady who committed  adultery deserved to die however she is not worth

enough to have the man waste several years in prison because of her so simply they

cast her out of the community. As for the man who commits adultery he is cast out of

the community as well and usually the kids stay with the mother and grandparents in

such case. Adultery is not the only reason for honourkilling, marrying  outside the

faith is a reason as well. As i mentionned before, it was common like 40 years ago

but now it is extremely rare.

 

The above doesnt apply to all communities in the country. As Dr Kamal Salibi

described  lebanon, it is a house of many mansions. So it is different in other parts of

the country.

226.       sheena
308 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 07:28 pm

Support Amnesty International -why don´t we as a collective group support the activities of Amnesty International?                                                                     

 

 

{#lang_emotions_angel}  Well done libralady

 

About time someone made a positive suggestion.

 

Count me in

227.       yilgun-7
1326 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 09:14 pm

For Deli_kizin,

Sizi çok iyi anlýyorum =I understand you very much.

Ben çok üzüldüm= I have been very unhappy.

Siz iyi bir kimsesiniz = You are a good person.

Bu bir kader.Dünya böyle = This is a fate.This is life.

Size sabýr dilerim = I wish you “patience”. A patient person will be rewarded for his patience, I believe.

 

228.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 10:21 pm

 

Quoting yilgun-7

For Deli_kizin,

 

 

 Thank you Yilgün. But please, no need for ´siz´, call me ´sen´  

229.       TheAenigma
5001 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 10:26 pm

 

Quoting Deli_kizin

call me ´sen´  

 

 Or ´clog´

230.       Trudy
7887 posts
 28 Nov 2008 Fri 10:27 pm

 

Quoting Deli_kizin

 Thank you Yilgün. But please, no need for ´siz´, call me ´sen´  

 

 Siz, DK? Are you THAT old?

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