Could anyone give me some help with this?
I understand its use as 'if', but its the other situations that confound me. I read a thread a little while ago which gave examples of other uses, I can't fınd this thread now, but if I remember rightly, it didn't explain the uses, just gave examples. It may be just one of those things I have to accept, but if that is the case I could do with more examples please!!
Many thanks,
Etty :-S

Greetings,

On this thread I have explained if clauses:
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_13_1065

That thread is the main one I have written on this issue and as you will see it is not only examples. When I look at it now I feel surprised to see how much effort I put on that one. Nowadays I feel too tired to explain things so detailed.

A couple of times I explained small nuances on this issue as well. After you have finished the main thread you could check these ones:
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_2565
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_2552
http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_6_1623

Thankyou erdınç.
I thought I understood the use of ise for 'if', but now I have a deeper understandıng of the subtleties with the different tenses.
Kadir, I have been studying this for days now, and I am almost completely out of my mind.
Could you (or anyone) give me some translations and explanations of the (compare) sentences.
Going crazy,
Etty.

I am still not clear on the issue of when the 'ise thing is used when not meaning 'İf'.
Can any one out there help pleeeeeaseç

ise has the suffix form -se, -sa. These are the same thing only when ise is used as 'if'.

I would prefer the suffix form over ise when using as 'if'.

gelirse <> gelir ise
yaparsa <> yapar ise

the second meaning I can think right now is "on the other hand this one"

Ahmet gitti, Ali ise gitmedi. *
Ahmet went but Ali didn't.

* An alternative would be:
Ahmet gitti ama Ali gitmedi.

As you see I translated it with 'but'.

Thankyou,
so maybe
Her gun dunyada milyonlar yemeksizlikten öliyor ise her gun diet yemeğeye milyonlar dollar harcar.

Everyday mıllıons die from starvation yet every day millions of dollars a spent on diet food.

I have made loads of leaps of faith with this but I can only learn!!

Greetings,
'ise' doesnt have a meaning as 'yet'. 'ise de' could be alright. You can of course use its suffix form "-sa da" or "-se de".
"ise de" means "even though" it is close to the meaning of "yine de" which means "but still", "although" or "even though".

I have three alternatives as corrected sentences. Number 2 and 3 are slightly stronger than 1.

1. Her gün dünyada milyonlarca insan açlıktan ölüyorsa da diyet yemeklerine milyonlarca dolar harcanıyor.

2. Her gün dünyada milyonlarca insan açlıktan ölüyor. Yine de her gün diyet yemeklerine milyonlarca dolar harcanıyor.

3. Her gün dünyada açlıktan ölen milyonlarca insan var ve yine de diyet yemeklerine milyonlarca dolar harcanıyor.

Kadir's sentences are well build. I think at the end we can say that "ise" has two main useges. One is condition and the other is comparision. Both usages can be constructed with the suffix form -se, -sa as well. With the former the suffix form is more common while with the latter the word form is more common.

You could try building a few conditional sentences and a few sentences with comparision to be sure you understand 'ise' completely.

Thakyou so much,
I will try again, but later. I am going to have a rakı now to straighten my head out, just one thing, apart from the conditional sense, is there ever a time when only 'ise' could be used and not ama or a comma or the like?
etty

yuk aslan sutu evil stuff gets you very very drunk though serefe etty

'şerefe' Kadir, it could just be working
I think I am begining to understand. My translation of the conditional is too narrow. The conditional is not just 'if'
'ne istersen al' 'take what you want'
I could say 'if you want it take it', but that would seem rude in English.

155 milyon çocuk kilolu, 45 milyonu ise obez ... (compare)
I don't understand what use the 'ise' has here.
I read it as '155 million childeren are overweight and 43 million are obese.
Or does it mean 'from the 155 milion fat ones 45 million are right blubbers'!!

OK, lets summarize our findings so far. I have decided to seperaete its use as conjugateion from comparision.

ise has two main useages:
1. condition : translated mainly as "if".

2. comparision: translated mainly as "but".

3. conjugation: Translated mainly as "on the other hand" or "while".

You are correct on thinking that in most comparision sentences with ise, somewhere in that sentence we would see "ama" or a comma. But it is possble to end a sentence and then start a new sentence in some cases:

Biz ciddi işler yapıyoruz. Sizin yaptığınız ise saçmalık.
We do serious things. On the other hand what you do is nonesense.
We do serious things while you do nonesense.

Biz ciddi işler yapıyoruz. Sizin yaptığınız ise saçmalık

So am I correct in thinking this sentence could be written,
Biz ciddi işler yapiyorus, ama sizin yaptıgınzı saçmalık

Sorry deli I was writing whilst you posted şerefe!

This language is of the devils own making!!!!
BUT I WILL OVERCOME

I am getting there!!
When 'ne ve 'se' are used together they produce a 'if its like that' kind of meaning.
yes???

Ye Gads the gırls gettıng there!!
I almost understand 'neredeyse'
I have always saıd language must be absorbed and you can absorb so much more whilst drinking rakı!!!

Ayşı'nın gözleri mavidir ise Gülün yeşildir.

Eğer (yoksa 'ne') onun gözleri mavise bu elbise uygun olacak.

Gençken her hafta sonunda partilere giderdim ise bu yıl sadece bir partiye gittim

Partiye gidersen sakın ol saat onda evdesın (yoksa 'olacaksın')

How am I doıng?
ps how do use the notepad?
Etty

That poetry is beautiful Kadir, didn't understand all your post fully, but got the jist.
The only thing I ever miss about England is that I had literally hundreds of poetry books, it was a passion I shared with my mother. We would talk for hours on the phone about poems, unfortunately she became senile a couple of years ago and died last year.
Maybe I should try translating some English poetry, I think it may be difficult though as poetry doesnt usually follow normal gramatical rules and generally the beauty lies within this.
Thankyou
etty.

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of being and ideal Grace.
I love thee to the the level of every day's
Most quiet need, by sun and candlelight.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with the passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhoods faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints,--I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life!-- and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.

ELIZABETH BARRETT BROWNING.

I shall now translate.

Well give me a minute

Hi Etty, love poetry is MUCH appreciated, but put it here
We will appreciate it big time


Elisa (absorbed into Dorothy Parker right now )

How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.

Nasıl seni sevmemi? Çareleri sayayım

I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of being and ideal Grace.

coming next week!!!
Etty

Well, not sure this sentence is made correctly in English but,
you can think "ISE" as compared/related to what was done in the first sentence.

Ben denize gidiyorum, sen ise ne yapacaksın?
'I'm going to the sea, you however, what will you do?'
(or maybe 'what about you, what will you do?') --> compared/related to my action that I am going into the sea.

Dolapta makarna var, pirinci ise bilmiyorum
'There's pasta in the cupboard, I don't know about the rice though.'
Though I know where the pasta is, I won't know where the rice is.
As you see there is a comparison/relation between 2 sentences.

I don't know if the comparison is the right word to say. But you guessed what it is I think. ** Feeling Tired **

PS: I hadn't checked the whole thread before posted this one. But I saw that there are enough explanations have done by Erdinc.

Thanks once again for your reply SunFlowerSeed, but the correction you made raises another question..

Hi Elisa,
I hope you are having a nice day there.
It has rained yesterday night but there is no smell of earth in the air. When I was in my country, I could smell the earth after a rain. But here, the only thing to smell is the exhaust gases of cars.
Anyway, back to your question;

Dolapta makarna var, pirinç ise bilmiyorum
'There's pasta in the cupboard, I don't know about rice though.'

This sentence might be correct in English, but I smell that there should be a 'the' followed by 'rice'. You'd say there is 'about' that might be enough, --lack of my English-- , but you didn't have 'about' in the Turkish sentence. You didn't have 'though', clearly, in Turkish sentence too.

You can say:
Dolapta makarna var, pirinç hakkında ise bilmiyorum.
which is grammatically correct but sounds very weird in Turkish.
Dolapta makarna var, pirinç hakkında ise hiç bir fikrim yok. is better.

Explanations:
1)When you say 'dolapta makarna var' you tell the place of makarna, right? In other words 'the place of the pasta' is the cupboard.
But, then you said that you didn't know the 'place of pirinc'. That -i suffix gives that meaning.
--I know the place of makarna but I don't know the place of pirinc. So, you need -i.
In clear Turkish it should be: "Dolapta makarna var, pirincin yerini ise bilmiyorum." But you can omit 'yerini' since it is clear that you are talking about the 'place' of pirinc. So, you can say 'pirinci ise bilmiyorum.'

2)You used 'though' in your English sentence. Which expresses that you are comparing 2 things. And as I understand, even it is at the end of the sentence, it is related to the makarna, right?
Makarna and pirinc is compared with " 'the places of them' in your knowledge". So 'though' also gives us the information that you are comparing them according to your knowledge.
So it becomes : '*Although I know* the place of makarna.'
So we are talking about things that are known to us. You can not compare things that are unknown to us in such sentence.
Say, 'Although I know the place of makarna, I don't know pirinc.' is not correct/or sounds weird, right. It sounds like you don't know what pirinc is. You need some words/prepositions to make the connection between the first sentence and the pirinc. You should say 'the pirinc', 'about pirinc', 'for the pirinc' or 'where the pirinc is' to clarify the connection beetween 2 sentences.

3)As we are talking about pirinc and makarna, where did they come from ? You should have had a conversation related to them before saying such sentence. Say, 'I am hungry' or 'Let's cook something' or 'You cook makarna and I will cook pirinc' etc.
So they became known words to us which requires an article.
I mean there is no sense to say such sentence before having a conversation.
Would you say such sentence before having any conversation before ? 'Dolapta makarna var, pirinci ise bilmiyorum.'
Not sure.
So, they need to be 'belirtili nesne --> known object'.
--well, I am not sure if 'known object' is the right term here--

Examples:
Türkçe bilmiyorum. --> I can't speak Turkish.
Türkçeyi bilmiyorum. --> I don't know the Turkish language. Say, I have never heard of it.
It would be weird to use the second one in the meaning of I can't speak Turkish. It gives more information than required just to inform that you can not speak Turkish.
Can you see the difference between 2 'bilmiyorum' and the difference between Türkçe and Türkçe'yi.

İngilizce biliyorum, Türkçeyi ise bilmiyorum.
I can speak English, but I can't speak Turkish. Here Türkçeyi bilmiyorum is different than its alone usage. Because in the first sentence you were talking about 'speaking a language'. So Turkish becomes a known object, since you are comparing them.

Ali denize girdi, Ayşe'yi ise bilmiyorum.
Ali went into the sea, but I don't know where Ayşe is.

Araba hızlıdır, uçak ise daha hızlıdır. (not a good sentence in Turkish but, just to be an example. It should be Araba hızlı fakat uçak ondan daha hızlıdır.)
A car is fast, a plane is faster though.
Here, we compare 2 unknown things. So we don't add -i suffix.

Defter burada, kalemi ise bilmiyorum.
Notebook is here, but I don't know where the pencil is,
which will be used to write on that notebook.

Defter burada, kalem ise, bilmiyorum.
Can be translated as : Notebook is here, but I don't know where a pencil is.
Pay attention to comma ','. There are 3 different sentences in this one.
Defter is here, but what about whereabout of a pencil. I don't know.
It says that 'kalem' is not a kalem directly related to the notebook. Any pencil which can be used for anything. You can write on that notebook or just break the pencil. I mean that you are not looking for a pen to write on the notebook exactly.

Bugün yağmurlu, yarın ise güneşli olacak.
Today is rainy, but tomorrow will be sunny.
You are giving information that tomorrow will be sunny and comparing it to today.

Elbise güzel, ayakkabıyı ise beğenmedim.
The dress is nice, but I didn't like the shoe. (Comparison again. In your understanding of beauty.)

Check above, because it is getting very long.
And ask again if there is something is not clear to you.
Best wishes,

Nice explanations hocam
I want to say a conclusion:

Because they have different verbs.

dolapta makarna var: There is pasta in cupboard
pirinci bilmiyorum: I dont know about pirinç

If you say pirinç bilmiyorum, it sounds like "I dont know what the pirinç language is"

This is about the verb "bilmek". If you use the words without -i suffix for bilmek, it looks like you are talking about a language skill.

Bilgisayar biliyor musun?
Do you know (how to use) a computer?

Java biliyorum.
I know (how to use) Java (the programming language).

Ms-Office bilmiyor.
He doesn't know (how to use) Ms-Office (programs).

İngilizce biliyor musunuz?
Do you know English (can you speak the language)?

If you add -i suffix, it means that you are talking about an existance, a knowledge, or if you have ever heard it etc.

Ahmet'i bilir misin?
Do you know Ahmet? (do you know who he is, have you meet him)

Kebabı bilir misin?
Do you know kebap? (have you taste it, have you seen it)

Türkiye'yi biliyorum.
I know Turkey. (I know where it is, or it may be: I have been in Turkey)

Oh, it became more than a conclusion