Food for thoughts from Orhan Pamuk:

Islam not irreconcilable with West

The Yomiuri Shimbun

.. a "clash of civilizations." Do you agree with that?

.. Samuel Huntington´s thought [of a "clash of civilizations"] is an interesting idea. There is some truth in it..... The West kills more Muslims they are afraid of or embarrassed by and say, "It´s a clash of civilizations." It is not a clash of civilizations. It is just killing people.

I don´t think Palestinians and Israelis can live happily in the same street and kiss each other for at least another 50 years. But Kurds and Turks have been living [alongside each other]. If the Turkish government is wise, they can continue to live [side by side] for quite a long time. So what I believe sometimes may contradict what happened in history. Cynics do not have ideals. I have ideals. I believe that this is possible and that´s why I want Turkey to join the European Union, which has higher standards of respect for different cultures and multiculturalism.

..

The Ottoman Empire realized coexistence to some extent.

..

You can only run an empire with a sort of tolerance. Do not think that they were multicultural, like EU or American tolerance. They were totally different. It was inevitable. ...

There has been a long history of confrontation between Western and Eastern cultures. Istanbul has been a powerful symbol of that confrontation and coexistence.

Some people only point out the confrontations of cultures in their lives, give their energy to focus on confrontations. I always point out how harmoniously they come together. Some people go out and only see head-scarved girls and mini-skirted girls and the conflict. Some people go out and see how they do not notice each other and live in peace in the streets of Istanbul. ..

Turkey is more politically troubled than socially troubled. If there is a social problem, that is poverty--class distinction between the rich and the poor. ....

Turkey is a multicultural country, not politically but ethnically and religiously. But I do not only see these problems as East clashes with West. Only after September 11th was "clash of civilizations" set as a sort of a standard model for the world.

...Yes, Islam is a religion which does not stay in the private sphere. It is not only about personal beliefs, but also about how to run a country, about laws and governments. And the rules are in the traditions of Islam and Koran. But this is the argument of ultraradical secularists, which can only base its power on the force of the army. Many people like me think that most of the Turkish people believe at the same time both in a blend of secularism and a blend of Islam.

I believe in secularism. I believe that public life should not be ruled by the laws of the religion. But Islamic tradition is not like that. Up to now, public life in Turkey has not been ruled by the rules of traditions of Islam, but the rules of secularism. I am a secularist, but a liberal secularist. There should be a harmony between the people´s wishes and secularization energy. Turkey´s secularists should be also liberal. We have secularists who base their power only on the army. That damages Turkey´s democracy. ....

Secularism is now combined with nationalism in Turkey. This combination has depressed ethnic minorities including Kurds, Armenians and Christians.

There is an obvious rise of nationalism in Turkey. There are many reasons for that. One is the anxiety of those ruling classes who think that if Turkey joined the EU, their interests will be damaged. Another is that, unfortunately, some part of the Turkish Army is upset about negotiations with the EU. Turkey´s improvement in democracy is developing in parallel with Turkey´s relationship with the EU. Some measures were taken by the previous and present governments, which I am happy about. More freedom of speech, more respect for minorities, more multiculturalism--unfortunately half of them are done just to enter the EU.

...Politically, it will be good because there are some EU standards for democracy: free speech, respect for the human rights, minorities, et cetera. Secondly, I also believe that once you join the EU you are militarily under the umbrella of the EU. You don´t have to reserve so much money for military spending. Also, once you are in the EU, Kurdish separatists will be happier, too. Negotiations should go faster. But it is not going that way, unfortunately.

..

Since I can not modify my post at the moment..

The link of the article for above post is:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/20090117TDY01302.htm

Great article... thought-provoking, as usual.

it is sad that you all bear so much hatred in your hearts, that you live with a hope of revenge and a bloodshed. you are like bulls who gets excited at the color of blood or sharks who follows the taste of blood drop.

+1000000000 I completely agree with you Femme.

This is not somewhere I choose to spend time anymore....

Femme is that your new motto?

She´s been posting this comment on every single thread, it really has no relevance here.

I was wondering too, seeing as it´s been posted in more than one thread...verbatim........

 you are more than welcome to delete my posts.

delete her account too

 +1

Well, if there is freedom of speech in the West, why can´t somebody say that Holocaust did not happen in those measures.. like it happened to Mel Gibson.. I think the West has freedom of speech only for the things they want to hear. 

freedom of speech?

go say I support al qaida in america and see what happens!

There are rules for deleting posts.

Of course there is no ´unlimited´ freedom of speech, but undoubtedly, there is much more freedom of speech then in many other places in the world, even Turkey.

 Yes, but not on the topics which are clashing of America´s interests... so what I am saying is that every country has its own... and I think it all depends where you are looking at it from...

yes... true... freedom of speech is restricted based on teh regime in the given country, not to threaten the people in power -- absolutely the same is in the west. however, in the west you won´t go to jail for a thought crime, which, if I´m not mistaken, is a reason for jailing people in Turkey.

 I think they have changed it due to the prospect of EU membership - if I am not mistaken... (I am not in Turkey for quite some time now).. but what I mean to say is that no country is perfect.   Now Turkey has a Kurdish TV, supported by the government.. It all takes time.

Perhaps my home country is the exception

Two Tunisian men were improsoned here for a really long time, suspected for wanting to kill Westergaard (the guy with the blasphemic drawings). Recently it was known that the police had no proof whatsoever and that they were innocent 

 Can you please explain this a bit more?

are you sure?

a Turkish politician, Dogu Perincek, was sentenced to 9 months of inprisonment in the west just for saying the armenian genocide is a lie.

right, your west is a heaven!

 Which country?

switzerland

  That was unexpected...

why is it so? it`s outlawed to say that in France too. go say armenian genocide is a lie in france and see what happens.

 I doubt you will be imprisoned, I think you get a fine.

What I meant was that freedom of speech is restricted in ways that would prevent people from questioning the regime (government) and people who are in power. For example, in Turkey you cannot criticize Ataturk.. in the west you cannot ´sympathise with terrorists´ -- because making people scared of ´terrorists´ is part of the foreign policy and that´s how they justify their middle eastern political agenda.

Dogu perincek was sentenced to 9 months of inprisonment.

I know France likes to control it´s citizens but I thought Switzerland still was a neutral country like it used to be.

 I reacted to your statement about France!

I´m not 100% sure but I think in my country I can say I support Al Quaida out loud (if I wanted to which is not, not true!). The only thing is that this support should be entirely verbal, no documents, gifts or whatever I think. So only saying that one supports terrorists is not forbidden here.

what is difference of inprisonment and getting fine? they are both punishment. and how do you know that you just get a fine in France?

 Quite some I think. And I didn´t say you get a fine in France, I said I think it is that way.

I would surely perfer a fine to imprisonment

would that change the fact that you`re not allowed to say armenian genocide is a lie in france? what if I don`t have any money to pay that fine?

 I think in America, there is a law that in case they suspect - no proof or no action is occured - that someone has some links or supporter of a so called group, they can detain you for an unlimited time..

OK. But is America THE west? They might think so, I don´t (and many with me). I´m not from the US.

 Yeah I ´ve heard of it. It´s a law the Bush administration made after 9/11 I think. It caused people to be suspecious of neighbours, friends and family in certain areas in the US

ahahhaaa yea anything bad is not the west. (the nazis were not western either, they were all secret muslims). aren`t france and switzerland western either?

You know Tami, you should ask an atlas for your birthday. ´The west´ exists of many countries, many times very different in laws or culture. Like your Turkey is not the same as Saudi-Arabia, Indonesia, Nigeria or Iran, mine is not the same as the US, France or Switzerland.

I never denied that bad things happen(ed), and such an absurd statement that nazi´s were muslims can only be in your brains!!

I agree with the fact that JUST saying ´there was no armenian genocide in 1915´ or ´genocide of jews in WWII was a lie´ does not fit with well with the freedom of speach..

Dogu Perincek case was similar to http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm David Erving case..  

But I think, those countries made those laws had a good motive: they don´t want another genocide like the Jewish holocaust. 

The freedom of speach in Turkey and in the west are not comparable. We are unfortunately quite back in the league...

In Turkey you can still be treated in  very nasty way for ´just expressing of your thoughts´..Turtures/death by falling of the stairs used to be very common..Just two years ago H Dink got killed..He had to endure endless court cases about code 301.. Even Orhan Pamuk was in front of a judge just because of a speech..There are still many cases similar to those in Turkey.

We are getting better though..

Hopefully the time when we join EU we will be at the same level..

 No I didn´t say that. I think it´s highly criticisable that the government can punish a citizen for anything they might have said.

was it the government who killed Hrant Dink? germans burnt 10 Turks last year just for being Turkish and muslim. how do you think this one fits the definition of freedom?

 Ah yes. It wasn´t the Turkish government that murdered Dink (true) but OF COURSE it was the German government that killed these Turks. You are really ...... (can´t say what I think - forum rules).

A Turkish man got killed by the german police last year just for being Turkish. how does that fit your definition of freedom? It was the german government who killed him, not a bum.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/190524,turkish-man-dies-after-blackout-in-german-police-station.html

Well actually, He was not killed by the goverment but the ´deep state´ embedded into establisment..

And also I have to remind you that he was prosecuted three times for denigrating Turkishness.

 At the time of his death, the prosecutor´s office was preparing to press charges in a third case.

He was convicted for the second case..

you are really ........   that you can`t even understand the sarcasm behind my post.

 It was a disturbed policeman, not the govenment.

Although it´s true that germans don´t have the warmest feelings towards turks in Germany.

Bad, bad, bad German government with their cruel actions to this o-so innocent (cocaine using and violent) man.....

oh yeah, when a Turkish man gets tortured and killed in a police stationof the government just for being Turkish, it`s not the government who is doing that, but when a bum who has nothing to do with the goverment shoots a journalist, it`s the "deep state" who is doing that.

do they torture and kill germans who use cocaine too. he wasn`t killed because he used cocaine, in fact his using had nothing to do with the case, he was killed just for being Turkish.

 I didn´t mention the "deep state", but there were proof of that Can you provide any proof that the government wanted to kill that Turk? What about all the "accidents" that happen in turkish prisons when inmates (often lefties) suddenly die from internal bleedings or undefined blows to the head?

 Dying from brain hemorrhage caused by taking an overdose of cocain I do not call killed.

There is more than a bum in hrant dink killing..

I dont think you are following the case..Of course you are not..Because you wont like what you will read there. The army units, police, all had some share in it..

It was not a lonely nationalist..

But of course you just want to believe that it was..

Sorry for the dissapointment for you but he was not a lunetic nationalist..

I don`t remember anyone getting killed in a Turkish prison for being german.

 I hope you´re not justifying killing of detained citizens (no matter what they may or may not have done)..

Im not into your conspiracy theories. show some proof or keep quiet.

 They just get killed for being anything the authorities in question don´t like

of course she does justify that.

You dont count Turks or kurds getting killed in Turkish prisons?

so?

Read the court cases man..dont you know how to read?

Of course I am not. But in my view - reading Tami´s article - the guy was not killed. He was tightened to a stretcher because - caused by his cocain abuse - he got violent. Then he got brain hemorrhage of which he died. That is not good, but it is not killing to me.

 I didn´t think you did either

 Is that a crime?

Turkish man beaten by German police near death

Turkish man beaten by German police near death

The brain functions of a Turkish man who was reportedly subjected to physical abuse at the hands of German police in Hagen, near Dortmund, have deteriorated, his brother said on Tuesday.

Adem Özdamar, 26, a suspected drug addict who was taken to a police station two weeks ago after informing the police that two African men were trying to kill him, was taken to the hospital in serious condition approximately two hours after leaving with the police.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=134463

 Ok. They tortured him. That is very, very wrong. But did they kill him?

you better keep quiet trudy. you`re being disgusting just to defend these murderers.

btw this is such an awesome argument.; they tortuted him but he dies himself!!!!! therefore he himself is guilty of his death

Pity that you can´t tell what and when to say. I think you should take Handsom´s advice serious: learn to read.

And what you think of me I don´t mind. I know who is saying it. 

yea, I`m arguing with someone who said this;

"Ok. They tortured him. That is very, very wrong. But did they kill him?"

I guess this  tami´s virtual way of masturbating himself by picking up a few petty criminal cases in the west and then trying to prove that Orhan Pamuk´s words were not correct : "Politically, it will be good because there are some EU standards for democracy: free speech, respect for the human rights, minorities, etc" 

did I ruin your "heaven of west" fantasies? right, when they commit crimes it`s just a "few criminal cases in the west", when it`s done in Turkey, we have to say there is no freedom in Turkey.

sorry about interrupting your mental mastubation.

I am apologising now!!! I have just read through this thread and I must say, I have ended up laughing, not at the original story but the postings that follow!  It is like an argument between siblings - if one can´t have the other can´t have it!!  So sorry 

I have to admit the one below was the funniest and most absurd post I have seen on tc.

 "Ok. They tortured him. That is very, very wrong. But did they kill him?"

I never had heven of west fantasies at all..why are you making it up?

The examples you are giving are a few petty criminal cases.. 

It does it mean that I am forgiving them for those..

But man, look at my countyr first...

Thousands but thousands people tortured there..

Thousands but thousands got killed in jails..

Thousands but thousands  are still burried in tube wells (in the south east)

They just caught a retired army general a few days ago in ergenekon case. Check his involvement in dissapearences in his area. 

Come on..give me a break here..

If you had spent your energy to get the things right in my country there would be less people dying, instead of spending your energy to prove that ´ah look at your self with this and that´ and trying to be able to say ´hey western people, you dont have democracy either´

what will you achive by doing that anyway? it wont change what has hapenned and hapenning in your country..

That is the reason I am saying that it is ´masturbation´..

 You´re right LL, whatever the original topic the outcome is the same every time  "The west is bad" ---> "No it´s not" <---> "Yes it is"

 "heaven of west"

where did you "pull" that one from (no pun intended) 

you should ask that to theH. he is the one who has such fantasies.

ha ha..

I agree with that..

But I must say that the best one of ´finding petty criminal cases in the west´ and coming up with ´eureka euraka, see these things happens every where´ was cynic_mistic..

shame he is not posting anymore..

No, I will leave you to carry on pulling your toys apart!

 i hope you are not comparing criminals to hrant dink or orhan pamuk.

you always speak about poor turks and muslims in the west opressed by the leftist-socialist govs. but who made them to immigrate to the evil west? what makes them to leave their wonderful homes and die at the hands of evil western govs? are they masochists? what are they doing there? why dont they go back to their sweet homes where they enjoyed and enjoy freedom, care and love?

 we shouldnt have to go far in order to find an example. TC is the best example of so called "limitted" free speech. whenever i come one or two comments are deleted. you are demanding and criticising the US gov for something you yourself cant give. what an irony!

you see, anyone who seeks the truth will find it even those so called dumb americans.

TC is not a media outlet or a website for informing people about the world and latest news. This is a privately owned community site with a certain purpose, and we have all the right to limit topics allowed for discussion on this platform. Our rights, responsibilities and capabilities are in no way comparable to the ones of a country like US.

 Searching for better world ?!

Believing many sweet talks about human rights,freedom..bla bla etc ?

Believing that,they are moving to Heaven,where they were in hell ´as all reports and organization say about most of the other countries not in the west´

As you may know,taking the decision of leaving your home,your country to another one not an easy one.

When you do that,you leave many things behind,and its not easy  in favor for also many better things you think.

Maybe thats why they dont come back

Because they also cant come back 

Because they believed a dream !

I have known many immigrants, and I have to say it really breaks my heart to see their attempts at integration into the US society. Many of them come because of war in their homelands, they left to save their lives. Others come for economic reasons, to send money home to their families. The famlies left behind have unreasonable expectations born out of unrealistic ideas of just what the actual economic conditions are.

They try to live with a foot in each country, but rarely get good footing as their possibility for balance is very compromised with their feet in different places. It´s like trying to keep one foot on land and another on a boat.

I´ve seen Latin American immigrants living on hardly anything and living together to cut expenses, so they can send money home.

Watching the cultural change is painful. I know a family from Afghanistan, another from Ethiopia their 14 year old sons listens to music they don´t understand, he wears strange cloths and doesn´t have much respect for their old fashioned family. I was shocked to hear one talking back to his mother. One of the daughters has married an "American". It is so difficult for them to understand all the cultural nuances. They many times become alienated from their children.

Many times they get ill because they don´t understand the food here. They can´t understand the list of ingredients.  Many times they are horribly exploited by their own countrymen who have learned the ropes.

A few do well, but most long for a home that they really can´t return to. The ones who do well are the ones with good educations that are transferable to the US. On many ocassions the degree is not transferable, so they have to take other jobs. I know a woman who was a obstetricion in Bosnia. Here she had to go to school to become a nurse.

Being an immigrant is not easy, and not a thing to do lightly, particularly if you come from an extended family who are close. The children will grow up not knowing who you are, and they won´t care, not like they would have had they had the chance to bond with you by daily life. You become a footnote.

 I protest this post...  what is a good motive.. they don´t want another genocide.. how about the one in Bosnia, how about now in Palestine.. I think they would consider it a crime to call these ones a genocide..  And we are far behind... let´s not forget bout Guantanamo Bay tortures.. If you have a Muslim name, or look like a middle eastern, see how will they treat you in the immigration of your so called west. Last year one of our friends (Dutch) was interrogated for 8 hours because he had a visa stamp for Iran.. another one, travelling from Australia (Italian origin) was almost detained because he looked like a middle eastern... please, let´s not talk about how wonderful and advanced it is in the West.

Yes, there was and most probably is torture in Turkey, but how about the other countries... there is nothing wrong with them???  believe me you would have been very angry if you were not allowed to say there was an Armenian genocide in the West and you would have called them hypocrites.. but now that it suits your own views makes it acceptable.

Let´s face it, the powerful countries feel they can do anything and they always get away with it, and then they think they can criticise everybody for the very same things they do.

 canli, what you wrote is utter nonsense (as always) and i have no wish to answer that. if it was really so bad in the west they would leave immediately as they have left their country before willingly (finding all ways).

your post is utter nonsense, canli.

 what is this?  who said that your website is a media? im not a journalist and i dont treat tc as an inforamtion website. in my previous post i mentioned about how expressing opinions is limitted here. catwoman is the best example of a tyrant. she deletes posts according to her moods, whenever she wants.

therefore im saying that before criticising US gov maybe you should look into your own garden.

 , and below is the funniest part

I agree with the statement that they feel they can do anything and get away with this. But I disagree with freedom of speech being the same in, say, USA and Turkey.In Europe or the USA you can protest freely against your  dislikes, even if it´s your country´s policy. You may make fun of the people in charge, religions and all. Those countries protesting against west limit those freedoms. Freedom of speech is not about whether there actually was genoicide of Armenians but whether or not you´re allowed to believe so and not face prosecution. If you protest against Iraq in London, unless you vandalise something, you won´t end up charged with treason. In Turkey, a statement of a transvestite resulted in the threat of charges. Should I go on about cartoons of Mohamet and Theo van Gogh? Is that the freedom of speech you want? Everybody´s free to criticise any religion, political system and government policy and everybody has the right to speak openly about it.

 You can not talk about the freedom of speech about religion, because it was not only condemned by Turkey but by the whole Muslim countries and societies all around the world.. And I think you can not keep Turkey responsible for it.  So it does not make a good example..

And please after Guantanamo Bay prisoners, - how they are treated and why are they there -, let´s not praise America, the land of freedom..  we have seen quite enough recently what they did about Gaza.. and i don´t think America is a dream country anymore... at least definitely not for me.

 can you write more clear and to the point? you mix up events. what did muslim countries condemn?

 alameda, you seem to forget about the history built up  by early immigrants. thousands of immigrnats came to US having a few dollars in their pockets. they built up the economy of america. they came with ideas in their heads to have a chance for a  better life or better future for their children. they worked hard, worked hard to achieve all they dreamt of.

but todays immigrants seem to be too much arrogant and demanding. they demand things to what they havent contributed a thing. thats what annoys me much.

and your post annoys me too.

 Daydreamer was talking about the cartoons of Prophet Mohammad (SAV)...

 so why are you annoyed with his / her post???? Is it because he says that it is difficult to be an immigrant, and they can not easily adjust... I am sorry but I didn´t get your point..

And I don´t agree fully about todays immigrants being arrogant and demanding... they pay exactly the same tax as you do, they work in the same offices you do.. so why can´t be they arrogant and demanding as you are?

The truth is US, CAnada and Australia gets immigrants, because their new generation does not produce enough tax and the elderly live far too long than expected.  So if you accept immigrants, then you should provide the same rights as you have.

Ok, read it more carefully this time:

We don´t have claims to have freedom to express all opinions on this site. There are limitations well documented on the site rules that you accepted while creating your account. If you think your ideas are not respected/they are deleted here you are welcome to go to some other site to write those or start your own site with all of your valuable opinions if you will. This has nothing to do with criticising a government for its limiting freedom of speech and manipulating its media. 

 +3

 why 3? did you become a trinity?

And it should have been condemned so thumbs up to those who did that. And I´m not blaming Turkey for that, where did you read it in my post? I was just pointing out how freedom of speech is not respected. How about Pamuk and his right to openly express his ideas (whatever others think of them)? How about anti-Pkk trip of Turkish army to a foreign country and voiced objection?

What do Guantamo Bay prisoners have to do with freedom of speech? Have there been any charges against those who talk openly about how those prisoners are kept? Sorry, I must have missed that.

Finally, where was I praising the US? I just said according to what I read and hear that you´re freer to express your opinion in the US than in many other countries, including Turkey. I´m not making it a who´s right and who´s wrong in their ideas, I´m just saying that if you don´t like what your country does, you should be free to say that, publish it and even paint your house in anti-government slogans.

Freedom of speech should also concern religions or, I should rather say, go beyond religions. Just as everyone should have free choice of what s/he wants to believe in, they shouldn´t face consequences by saying why they find other religions ridiculous. Don´t you agree?

The face of vengance is hideous.

In looking up the word vengance in Google, I came across this episode of Xena, Warrior Princess....food for thought?

Becoming a Monster

 No, it was just a 3 point shot...

Angry or stressed? Ahm...must be my browser as I don´t see anything about you being angry or stressed and neither am I for that matter

Sure there´s no perfect place on earth with unlimited freedom of speech, still, I´ll hold to my opinion that the US provides more of it than Turkey.

As for making fun of other people´s saints, I disagree. There´s not one single reason for me to do that. I respect people that I know and I respect their right to respect whatever they want. At the same time, I´d love to keep my right to laugh at funny pictures of Jesus, Mary, Muhamet and whoever else there is.

If somebody is persecuted for what they believe in, I´ll stand by them defending their right to do that, but it doesn´t mean I must agree with those beliefs.

 I still don´t agree with the last part of your statement.  For ezample I respect my mum and dad, and some ignorant goes and makes up smt. funny about them, and everybody has a good laugh.. I am sorry but I won´t like it, because they are precious to me. 

>> when you decided to live in a country you too accepted its rules and regulations.

Only "when you decide", which is a very very small minority of the population in all countries.

>> but in this case i too can say that if you think that your rights arent respected or limited you too are welcome to go to another country and enjoy your valuable rights. am i right?

No, you are not right. Going to another country,  getting permanent residentship, working rights and citizenship is in no way similar to visiting a website.

 your parents are your parents, nobody else has a duty to respect them the way you respect them. you should learn to take things easy.

 i finally have waken up the sleeping prince.

 So you don´t mind me swearing at your parents???

 what harm will that do to me and to my parents? we will simply ignore you.

That irresistible charm of yours

 obviously you are made up of a cold matter..

 dont even try. you will never be as cool and smart as me.