Pity that you can´t tell what and when to say. I think you should take Handsom´s advice serious: learn to read.

And what you think of me I don´t mind. I know who is saying it. 

yea, I`m arguing with someone who said this;

"Ok. They tortured him. That is very, very wrong. But did they kill him?"

I guess this  tami´s virtual way of masturbating himself by picking up a few petty criminal cases in the west and then trying to prove that Orhan Pamuk´s words were not correct : "Politically, it will be good because there are some EU standards for democracy: free speech, respect for the human rights, minorities, etc" 

did I ruin your "heaven of west" fantasies? right, when they commit crimes it`s just a "few criminal cases in the west", when it`s done in Turkey, we have to say there is no freedom in Turkey.

sorry about interrupting your mental mastubation.

I am apologising now!!! I have just read through this thread and I must say, I have ended up laughing, not at the original story but the postings that follow!  It is like an argument between siblings - if one can´t have the other can´t have it!!  So sorry 

I have to admit the one below was the funniest and most absurd post I have seen on tc.

 "Ok. They tortured him. That is very, very wrong. But did they kill him?"

I never had heven of west fantasies at all..why are you making it up?

The examples you are giving are a few petty criminal cases.. 

It does it mean that I am forgiving them for those..

But man, look at my countyr first...

Thousands but thousands people tortured there..

Thousands but thousands got killed in jails..

Thousands but thousands  are still burried in tube wells (in the south east)

They just caught a retired army general a few days ago in ergenekon case. Check his involvement in dissapearences in his area. 

Come on..give me a break here..

If you had spent your energy to get the things right in my country there would be less people dying, instead of spending your energy to prove that ´ah look at your self with this and that´ and trying to be able to say ´hey western people, you dont have democracy either´

what will you achive by doing that anyway? it wont change what has hapenned and hapenning in your country..

That is the reason I am saying that it is ´masturbation´..

 You´re right LL, whatever the original topic the outcome is the same every time  "The west is bad" ---> "No it´s not" <---> "Yes it is"

 "heaven of west"

where did you "pull" that one from (no pun intended) 

you should ask that to theH. he is the one who has such fantasies.