I think you should talk for yourself rather than referring to the rest of us with the "we did this & that" attitude. Using the third person plural does not make your points any more credible, or make you sound like a genuinely humanitarian Turk.

I, for example, did not do any of those things that you claim collectively as we did. I didn´t kill & torture anyone; didn´t burn any villages; didn´t commit any crimes against humanity; or assimiliate anyone. In fact, no one has actually asked me for my opinion, permission, authorization or participation in these matters. This also happens to be the case for probably 99% of that ´we´ you seem to be fond of. I am sure you are capable of comprehending the basic notion of difference between the actions of a government & the lack of involvement of the general public in the excution of certain governmental decisions. Did the average Joe on the street in Pig´s Knuckle, Arkansas authorize the invasion of Iraq? Did they hold a general referandum in Turkey to ask everyone what they think should be done?

It is not the articles or the arguments you provide that people disagree with. It is your attitude of generalization, and forcing everyone acknowledge your black-and-white perspective on the matter.

"- We, the Turks, did this & that; assimilated; killed; tortured; maimed; committed crimes; and suppressed. - I have provided the numbers and the evidence, so this is how it is... You cannot deny. You cannot disagree..." With this sort of logic, I don´t think you will get many people to agree with you.

Are you also suggesting that Kurds were killed only by Turks? If you have any knowledge about this topic, and I really do that you have for you seem to post about it a whole lot, then you would know very well that, during the incidences you are referring to, a lot of Kurds were also killed by other Kurds. Why do you omit this fact from your arguments. You have heard of the clash of the Kurdish aþiret lords with the PKK, have you not? Aside from being against the policies of the Republic of Turkey - not ´us Turks´ - the PKK was also a revolt against the age-old Kurdish aþiret system, which was resented by many young Kurds. That is precisely why every single Kurdish aþiret armed their men and sent them off to fight PKK in order to protect their interests. Armed Kurdish aþiret fighters fought side by side with the Turkish army soldiers against armed Kurdish PKK guerillas. How do you explain that?

Along the same lines, any time anyone mentions the involvement of foreign powers in escalating violence by providing arms and funds, you accuse them of being brainwashed and sounding like Turkish generals. Are you truly expecting anyone to disregard the fact that both Germany & the UK were involved in the affairs of Turkey by supporting PKK behind closed doors?

Nobody is saying the incidences from the articles that you love clip & post so much did not happen. They just didn´t happen the way you present them to have happened, nor did they happen for the reasons you say they happened.

u just laugh but cant answer somethings,

dont answer me with another article.

talk with ur own words!!!

 well said I admit but don´t you have an impression that thehandsom identifies himself with all the nation ???what an ego..sorry no personal attack,just a thought)

Well I am a Turk and I was trying OWN what our goverments or our army did..

If I say THE army, or THE rulers of Turkey it would not look nice because they are OUR goverment and OUR army..I do want to show that as a Turk,  I do know them and I do own them.

I completely agree with you on that..I did not commit any of those either.

And I have always opposed any of them.

I do not understand what you mean by that to be honest..

I am just telling what I think and believe and I think I am proving what I am saying as well with the articles, with the documents, with the court results, with the numbers etc..If you have different ideas about what I am saying please say so. And bring me the news articles, sources, documents to prove that..

Of course I have heard that PKK clashing with the asirets and lords..It is one of the reasons why they were very popular at earlier times..

Asiret fighters fighting with goverment forces can be easily explained with asiret system and the weapon /money given to them..I still believe it is a horrible system and a huge mistake..Those militias are guilty of many things.. 

I would love to see a concrete proof about UK & Germany´s involvement about PKK..

I do accept that intelligent services play some roles in politics up to certain extend (Turkey years after years supported General Dostum In Afghanistan or Chechens for example but so what?).

But even if it is true, there got to be certain conditions to persuade serious amount of population to take up arms.. Try to arm welsh people in the UK for example with money and all the power from an intelligent service. You can not.. 

Well..Thanks for above...That is what I wanted to hear actually..

We can talk about the reasons why those things happened seperately..

Well, if you are looking for concrete evidence in the form of concrete buildings or stone statues, then I guess I cannot privide any. If you google PKK, and its funders, many articles come up about the topic. Addiotionally, almost any book that deals with the issue of PKK, will touch on the same aspect of foreign involvement in its funding and arms dealing.

Here is something I copy/pasted from this site : http://www.turkeylive.net/pm-erdogan-to-submit-detailed-pkk-report-to-bush/pm-erdogan-to-submit-detailed-pkk-report-to-bush.html

I am not suggesting that this article on its own is the concrete proof that you are looking for. It is just really naive of you to assume that PKK is not and has not been funded, supported and manipulated by foreign services. Of course, showing serial numbers of the weaponary doesn´t implicate, but it surely hints, if you know what I mean. Somehow the money is there and someone is selling the weapons. Taking into consideration that a very significant portion of both Germany´s & the UK´s national revenues are derived from arms sales & defence related technologies, in addition to their vested interests in the region, it is only expected that they are behind the scenes with the others.

Turkey has launched its most comprehensive and diplomatic crackdown to date on the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), which has cost Turkey about 33,000 lives and $100 bln over the course of 21 years.

At a meeting of its influential National Security Council (MGK) held last Wednesday following the killing of 47 soldiers and civilians during the last month, Turkey put the recent status of the PKK on the table. Seeking to develop means for international cooperation against the PKK, Turkey has launched a diplomatic attack against the PKK. Prime Minister Tayyip Erdo?an had talks with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, and he will take a detailed report on the PKK’s activities to a meeting with US President George W. Bush scheduled for Nov. 5.

The report, prepared by Turkish intelligence units, notes that recently there has been an increase in PKK violence as the terrorist organization previously would kill 60 to 90 security officers over a few years, but it has killed 147 people in the first 10 months of 2007.

The report also argues that the PKK uses northern Iraq as a weapons and ammunition depot and that a significant part of its weaponry is US-made, listing in detail the PKK presence in locations in the region. According to the report, the PKK is using caves in the Kandil Mountains as its arsenals and logistics centers, and it has seven arsenals in Hakurk, Bekur, Misalog, Zaro, Cemalurti , Armus-Ciya and Minazerdi; it has also spent $15 million in procuring weapons and ammunitions in the last year and possesses heavy weaponry. The report was drafted by the Turkish General Staff using information collected by Turkish intelligence units and contains evidence for how the PKK secures funds using associations established in Germany, Austria, Spain, Belgium, Greece, the US, Finland, Denmark, Romania, Russia, Ireland, Sweden, Norway, Italy and the UK.

The PKK uses these funds to procure weapons and manages about $300 million yearly, according the report, which also contains evidence of the PKK’s drug and arms smuggling, using Scandinavian countries as its base for drug trafficking.

Critical of the European countries’ lack of sincerity in the fight against the PKK, the report elaborates on these countries’ perspectives on the PKK and the terrorist organization’s presence in them. According to the report, despite the fact that they recognize the PKK as a terrorist organization, none of these countries delivered PKK militants or leaders to Turkey, and Germany, France, Netherlands and Belgium are listed as the countries where the PKK’s financing activities are concentrated.

The section on weapon procurement sources for the PKK seems to weigh heavily on Turkish-US relations. President Bush had already admitted that some weapons lost by the US Army were acquired by the PKK, and he is expected to provide some explanation for it in his meeting with Erdo?an. According to the report, the PKK has affiliated organization in the US such as the American Kurdish Information Network (AKIN), the Washington Kurdish Institute (WKI) and the Kurdish National Congress of North America (KNC).

The report also contains detailed information about the origins of 36,563 weapons captured by Turkish security officers from the PKK, giving their serial numbers, places of production and countries of origin as follows:

* The countries of origin for 4,500 of 11,297 Kalashnikov rifles could be fully identified using the data on them. Accordingly, the breakdown of their countries of origin is as follows: Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) (71.6 percent), the People’s Republic of China (14.7 percent), Hungary (3.6 percent), and Bulgaria (3.6 percent).

* Of 5,713 Kannas, BKC, Dragunov, Arbiki, G-3, M-16, G-1, Mavzer and weapons of other make, 959 were found to come from Russia and CIS (45.2 percent), the UK (13.2 percent) and the US (9.4 percent).

* Of 1,610 rocket launchers of various makes, 313 were identified to be Russian-made (85.3 percent), Iraqi-made (5.4 percent) and China-made (2.5 percent).

* Of 2,885 pistols of various makes, 2,208 were found to come from former Czechoslovakia (21.9 percent), Spain (20.2 percent) and Italy (19.8 percent).

* Since some of 11,568 land mines were destroyed on the spot, the countries of origin of only 8,015 land mines could be determined. The majority of them were Italian-made (60.6 percent) while 28.3 percent were Russian-made and 6.2 percent German-made.

* Of 3,490 hand grenades of various makes, 136 were found to come from Russia (72 percent), the US (19.8 percent) and Germany (8 percent).

* The A-4 and C-4 explosives used in terrorist attacks in cities were found to be Portuguese-made.

Barzani-PKK connection
The report gives a detailed account of the relations between Massoud Barzani, leader of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP), and the assistance and support he provides to the PKK terrorists in northern Iraq. According to the report, 30 PKK militants obtained loans ranging between $5,000 and $10,000 to set up businesses in northern Iraq, and these businesses were used to provide foodstuff and other materials to the PKK camps in northern Iraq. The PKK’s businessmen, who are also Iraqi citizens registered at the Iraqi Chamber of Commerce, are actively operating in the foodstuff and transportation sectors. The loans provided by the KDP were used to open up 12 businesses in Sulaimaniya, 11 in Arbil, seven in Salahaddin and two in Baghdad. Some PKK militants have reportedly joined the peshmergas, and they were generally employed in regions close to the Turkish-Iraqi border. The report also mentions that some PKK militants who were trained in the camps in northern Iraq were settled in the villages of Rezge, Karna, Posht Ashan and Sheikh Ayesh.

Another fact about this matter that you somewhat seem to ignore is that the PKK has always been identified not by Kurdish nationalism, but by Marxism. Abdullah Ocalan, the founder, was half Turkish. I thought I would remind you that just as he reminded the Turkish commandos in Kenya, when he was captured. Early leaders or influential players of the PKK movement had ethnic Turks as well as Kurds. The PKK considered itself as the means to a social movement. Their publications testify to this as well.

The deaths that you keep referring to in the thousands etc were mainly insurgents, soldiers, civilians and anti-PKK village guards, who happened to be Kurdish themselves by the way, not to mention the Kurds that were murdered in Europe, Lebanon & Syria for disagreeing with Ocalan´s approach.

Don´t you find it ironic and a bit suspicious that more Kurds have actually been killed by PKK than Turks? Didn´t PKK collaborate with Saddam, and engage in suppressing the local Kurdish clans in Iraq?

Do we have a selective memory here, when it comes to acknowledging all the relevant factors rather than just those that serve the title of your post?

I know you are living in the UK at the moment but is this a permanent arrangement?  Do you have UK citizenship I wonder?  If you are a UK citizen then I would say your right to say OUR is relinquished in favour of THE.  Or perhaps the fact that you use OUR is answering my question.  I would be interested anyway. Thanks in advance.

I dont know what you mean with selective memory..

I dont remember saying that pkk was not marxist anywhere in this forum..

Pkk was born as a marxist organization end of 1970s. But so what?

I always agreed with their killings as well..

But when it comes to who killed how many and how many of them were civilian by which side, we would differ.

I remember giving the numbers in my earlier posts (I think it was the time when I was arguing with Vineyards).

I dont want to repeat them again.

Well I am not sure if I take this post seriously or not.

So far, I have not seen any concrete evidence for western countries supporting of PKK and you have not provided any either..

if you check the weaponary of any terrorist organisation or any armed groups , you will find the same kind list..

I am sure AlQaide, hamas, hezbullah, chechens etc. are using similar kind of weapons..

Any organisation that has money can buy those things in the market I assume..

Regarding your statement  about "pkk financing activities concantrated in EU countries" is correct..And also there might be drug related money in it too..

But that does not mean ´PKK is financed by EU countries´.

maybe you dont see these articles but this is one of the evidence,

Sunday telegraph writes that CIA supports Pejak which is one group of PKK. but it s clear that they support PKK too. Turkish journalist, Can Dündar, published a photo of meeting a CIA agent with PKK terrorists on 23 january 2003.

http://www.candundar.com.tr/_media/1235.jpg

Amerika PKK’yý besliyor

Ýngiltere´nin ciddi gazetelerinden Sunday Telegraph, Amerikan Merkezi Haber Alma Teþkilatý´nýn (CIA) Ýran´Ã½ vurmak için PKK´nýn Ýran kolu PEJAK´a destek verdiðini yazdý. ClA´nýn hedefi terör örgütünü kullanýp Ýran´Ã½ istikrarsýzlaþtýrmak

ÝRAN´I TEHDÝT ETMÝÞTÝ           
Amerika 2003 yýlýnda Irak´Ã½ iþgal ettikten sonra Ortadoðu´da sýranýn Suriye ve Ýran´da olduðunu açýkça ilan etmiþti. Nükleer enerji çalýþmalar mý hýzlandýran Ýran bir taraftan da "Hayal bile edilemeyecek nükleer silahlar ürettik" diyerek Amerika´ya meydan okumuþtu. Amerika-Iran arasýndaki restleþme sürerken Ýngiltere´nin saygýn gazetelerinden Sunday Telegraph Amerikan Merkezi Haber Alma Teþkilatý´nýn (CIA) Ýran´Ã½ istikrarsýzlaþtýrmak ve yönetimi zayýflatmak için terör örgütlerini Ýran´a karþý desteklediðini yazdý.

PKK’YA PARA YARDIMI
ClA´nýn Ýran´a karþý mali destek saðladýðý terör örgütleri arasýnda Kuzey Irak´Ã½n Iran sýnýrýna yakýn bölümünde yuvalanan PKK´nýn Iran kolu olan PEJAK´Ã½n da bulunduðu iddia edildi. Gazeteye konuþan emekli bir CIA yöneticisi bu örgütlere doðrudan ClA´nýn gizli bütçesinden para aktarýldýðýný anlattý. Gazete Amerikalý eski bir terörle mücadele ajanýnýn yorumunu da aktardý: "Ýran´da son zamanlarda güvenlik güçlerine yönelik saldýrýlarýn artmasý bu desteðin bir kanýtý. Saldýrýlarýn büyük bölümünde Kürt teröristler görev alýyor."

SADECE ÝRAN’A KARÞI MI?
Ödüllü Amerikalý gazeteci Seymour Hersh, geçen kasým ayýnda Amerikan hükümetinin Ýran üzerinde baský kurabilmek için terör örgütü PKK´nýn bir kolu olan PEJAK´a eðitim ve malzeme saðladýðýný yazmýstý. Amerikan ajanlarýnýn Kuzey Irak´ta Kandil Daðý´nda yuvalanan PKK´lý teröristlerle defalarca görüþtüðü haberleri çýkmýþ ancak Amerika bu haberleri yalanlamýþtý. Gazeteci Can Dündar 23 Ocak 2003´te bir Amerikalý ajanýn terör örgütü PKK´nýn yöneticileriyle Kuzey Irak´taki bir bölgede buluþmasýnýn fotoðrafýný yayýmlamýþtý.
Bu fotoðraf 23 Ocak 2003´te Milliyet´te yayýmlandý. Amerika´nýn terör örgütleriyle gizli pazarlýklarýný yürüten bir askeri yetkilisi, Ali Haydar Kaytan, yanýnda Dursun Ali, Halil Ataç, arabulucu Davut Baðýstani ve Nizamettin Taþ ile yer sofrasýnda oturmuþ yemek yiyip sohbet ediyorlar. Ama Amerika bunu yalanlýyor.

http://img0.bloggum.com/upload/lib/img/4396/500/r_6zqrvym2bqy5x8lttmpz.jpg