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Separation paranoia or would education in Kurdish separate Turkey?
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1.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 03 Sep 2009 Thu 09:14 pm

 

Separation paranoia or would education in Kurdish separate Turkey?

...

Ministry of Finance Mehmet Simsek recently made a visit to the village in Batman where he was born and grew up. One of the interesting moments of the visit was the speech of Simsek’s uncle, which could not be understood by the journalists. His uncle spoke in Kurdish, his native language. And Minister Simsek, his nephew, interpreted his words.

 

Kurdish is the native language of millions of citizens living in this country. Mehmet Simsek said he did not know a single word of Turkish when he started elementary school. I heard a similar story from Osman Baydemir, the mayor of Diyarbakir. Baydemir said the language barriers he had to face while trying to adjust to school caused him to suffer from traumas.

 

It is seen clearly that the Deniz Baykal, the leader of Republican People’s Party, or CHP, is agreed by part of the society when he uttered the words ´Kurdish will first begin as an elective course but later it will become a required course, and thus pave the way for separation of the country.´

 

Interior Minister Besir Atalay said such worries cause ‘separation paranoia.’ ....

 

Education in one’s native language is a human right. In today’s world the right to learn and teach one’s native language demanded by millions of citizens is an irrefutable legitimate right. A considerable amount of Kurds aspire to protect and use Kurdish as an active language. They do not want to do it on an individual basis but rather desire the state to protect Kurdish. This demand gradually spreads among the wider Kurdish community.

 

The ‘education in Kurdish’ that is provided in the Kurdistan region of northern Iraq exists as a successful example right beside us. The forced assimilation policies of Republic of Turkey against Kurds have collapsed. It was not actually possible to eradicate the language and existence of a nation that is estimated to be around 20 million people. The ‘racist’ understanding prevailing in this country fought against reality and life for years and it lost. There is no turning back from this.

 

The Kurds have determined it an aim to protect and develop their native language. One of the demands of hundreds of thousands of Kurds gathered in Diyarbakir on Tuesday was education in Kurdish.

 

This is the reality. We should first see this reality. The Kurds want to develop their language, culture and folklore. These demands cannot be suppressed. The important thing is that a peaceful environment in which Turks grant these rights to the Kurds is provided.

 

The Turks living in Europe do their best so that their children do not forget their native language. They know a nation that has lost its native language is condemned to annihilation. The Kurds want to survive. Maybe the main reason for dozens of Kurdish revolts was the reflex of existence as a Kurd.

 

***

 

Resisting this rightful demand of Kurds means a meaningless fight against reality. In addition, such an attitude of rejection will further shake the Kurds’ trust in the state.

 

Today, the widespread inclination among the Kurds living in Anatolia is the desire to live together. The surveys carried out reveal this desire to be over 90 percent. Again a great majority of Kurds wants the state’s ´ignorant´ attitude against Kurds to change.

 

The understanding that has prevailed in Turkey has arrived at a decision-making point. The ´Kurdish opening´ is the imposition of this reality. The provocation of Turkish nationalism, and creation of a psychological atmosphere in which the extremely rightful democratic demands of Kurds will be refused shall unavoidably provoke separation.

 

The teaching method of Kurdish, be it elective or requirement, is the later stage. We should first agree on this: Is it a right of the Kurdish people living in Turkey to perform music, literature, and arts in their native language, and to learn and develop their language in schools with scientific methods, or not?

 

Education in Kurdish will not separate Turkey but rather it may bring the Kurds and Turks closer together. The point is the understanding with which this education will be carried out.

 

The main character of the nationalist and militarist education in Turkey is separatist. The education that starts each day by saying ‘I’m Turkish, I’m decent,’ unfortunately reflected an understanding that ignores different cultures and aims at eradicating them from this country. Such an education failed in terms of ‘unity.’ It pulled Turkey into bloody conflicts.

 

Hasn’t it been understood from all the pain we have suffered that politics based on denial and annihilation is separation itself and provokes separation further?

 

´Education in Kurdish´ is currently a demand of peace promoting unity. If responded to positively, it will bring positive results.

 

 * Mr. Oral Çalislar is a columnist for the daily Radikal in which this piece appeared Wednesday...

 

The source:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/...turkey-2009-09-02

 

 

 

2.       Melek74
1506 posts
 03 Sep 2009 Thu 10:20 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

Hmmm, maybe I should demand education in Polish in the USA? Unsure Or the 50 million Spanish speakers should demand education in Spanish? Too bad the English language is the de facto official language, life would be so much easier for us immigrants if we didn´t have to learn it! Life is so unfair.Cry

 

Ok, I´m being facetious. I do understand the situation of Kurds and immigrants in the USA is not even remotly comparable and I do sympathize with their plight. I´m 100% behind every person´s right to speak their native language freely. I just don´t feel that mainstream education should be conducted in languages other than the official one (except for language courses of course). The article mentions somebody who went to school I think without being able to speak Turkish. The article mentions the trauma caused by the language barrier. There are many people here who have difficulties communicating in English (many a times by choice) as well and that causes them to have difficulties conducting day to day business, unless they only conduct business with people who speak their language or they have the option to "press 9 for Spanish" (interestingly, other languages are not an option). The lack of ability to speak English contributes to their separation from the mainstream culture and is incredibly limiting. I don´t think it would be a good idea for various ethnic groups/nationalities to deepen the divide by creating mainstream schools where classes would be conducted in their own languages (and thus creating an environment when the use of the official language is not necessary - for many immigrants in the US, the school is the only place where the children can speak and learn English as their parents´ language is the one spoken exclusively at home).

 

So, the right to speak one´s language and the right to learn one´s language (in language classes or in private schools) - yes.

Changing the language of mainstream schools to accomodate minority groups - no.

 

That´s just my opinion.



Edited (9/3/2009) by Melek74
Edited (9/3/2009) by Melek74
Edited (9/3/2009) by Melek74

3.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 03 Sep 2009 Thu 10:42 pm

Well, as someone who is married to a foreigner, I can definately sympathize with the language barrier.  I definately support peoples right to speak their native language in their private lives as well (hahaha....we speak Turklish in our house - half English, half Turkish!).  However, when  a country has a official language, the official language should be the language used in all state funded educational institutions (with the acception of foreign language classes), state offices and other government run organizations.   

4.       mhsn supertitiz
518 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 12:23 am

 

Quoting thehandsom


Education in one’s native language is a human right. In today’s world the right to learn and teach one’s native language demanded by millions of citizens is an irrefutable legitimate right.

 

 

 

 

This pretty much proves that all the western countries are violating human rights. will you criticize these fascistwestern  countries? <img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)



Edited (9/4/2009) by mhsn supertitiz

5.       Melek74
1506 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 06:34 am

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

 

 

 

This pretty much proves that all the western countries are violating human rights. will you criticize these fascistwestern  countries? <img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)

 

All this proves is that you don´t know what you´re talking about. People in western countries are free to learn and use their language, even though the mainstream education is conducted in the official language of the country, as I think it should.

 

Just as an example, in Chicago, both Polish and Turkish children (and I´m sure other nationalities as well) can go to weekend schools conducted in their own language (that are separate from mainstream schools). They can go to bookstores and purchase books and magazines in their language. In my library there are books in Polish, Spanish, Korean, some of the languages of India, and I think Arabic. You can go to stores where the staff doesn´t speak English and you can talk to the staff in your own language. You can listen to radio stations in some languages, there are tv programs catered to different nationalities. Different nationalities can celebrate their culture - for example I went to a festival of Turkic cultures last month and might go to the Taste of Polonia this weekend. Many nationalities can go to religious services in their languages. They can open cultural centers that cater to specific ethnic/cultural groups. They can go to restaurants with specific cuisines. Many places provide translating services - for example where I work if a client doesn´t speak English we will pay for the translator or will find a provider that speaks the client´s language.

 

What can Kurds do in their language in Turkey? How can they celebrate their culture?

6.       mhsn supertitiz
518 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 06:41 am

 

Quoting Melek74

 

 

All this proves is that you don´t know what you´re talking about. People in western countries are free to learn and use their language, even though the mainstream education is conducted in the official language of the country, as I think it should.

 

Just as an example, in Chicago, both Polish and Turkish children (and I´m sure other nationalities as well) can go to weekend schools conducted in their own language (that are separate from mainstream schools). They can go to bookstores and purchase books and magazines in their language. In my library there are books in Polish, Spanish, Korean, some of the languages of India, and I think Arabic. You can go to stores where the staff doesn´t speak English and you can talk to the staff in your own language. You can listen to radio stations in some languages, there are tv programs catered to different nationalities. Different nationalities can celebrate their culture - for example I went to a festival of Turkic cultures last month and might go to the Taste of Polonia this weekend. Many nationalities can go to religious services in their languages. They can open cultural centers that cater to specific ethnic/cultural groups. They can go to restaurants with specific cuisines. Many places provide translating services - for example where I work if a client doesn´t speak English we will pay for the translator or will find a provider that speaks the client´s language.

 

What can Kurds do in their language in Turkey? How can they celebrate their culture?

 

 

it`s funny that the answer is;  the Kurds can do all the things you listed above in Turkey except the ones you made up such as that I can go to a store in America and talk to the staff in Turkish.<img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast) If the staff is Kurdish they can speak in Kurdish for sure. I don`t think anyone speak in Turkish in the stores in Diyarbakir.why don`t you educate yourself a little bit before making silly assumptions?

 



Edited (9/4/2009) by mhsn supertitiz

7.       Trudy
7887 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 08:25 am

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

 

 

 

I don`t think anyone speak in Turkish in the stores in Diyarbakir. 

 

 You don´t think they can? Well, that proves you have never been there or to other cities/places where the majority is Kurdish. I have. And even with my limited Turkish of about 400 words I could understand them and hear the difference between Turkish and Kurmanci.



Edited (9/4/2009) by Trudy

8.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 08:26 am

 

Quoting Melek74

All this proves is that you don´t know what you´re talking about. 

 

surprise surprise.. Satisfied nod

 

Quote: Melek74

What can Kurds do in their language in Turkey? How can they celebrate their culture?

 

I am not sure how it is now, some things have changed under the pressure of EU, but not that long ago, before the barbaric tortures against Kurds by the modern turkish government, Kurds were not even allowed to use kurdish names for their children, not to mention celebrating their cultural holidays, or using their language in public places..

 

I do wonder why Clinton is so loved by Turks, maybe the atrocities against Kurds campaign and US involvement has some insight into it..

turkish atrocities against Kurds

9.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 10:41 am

 

Quoting Trudy

 

 

 You don´t think they can? Well, that proves you have never been there or to other cities/places where the majority is Kurdish. I have. And even with my limited Turkish of about 400 words I could understand them and hear the difference between Turkish and Kurmanci.

 

Of course they can ..

But there are many many things Kurds  (as Kurds )are NOT allowed to do with this army  dictated fascist constitution..(And also it is not that easy to break the fear of separation and ignorance of common people about the issue.)

Some Turks ´not knowing what is going on in their own country´ does not change this fact!!

If they were ALLOWED to we would not have A KURDISH PROBLEM right now!!..

Entire Turkey is talking about the Kurdish problem and  ´Kurdish initivie´.

Are they all sadomazo in Turkey so that they are inventing non existing problems?

Why did get 70.000 people killed then?

If they were given what is right for a half way decent average human being,  why would we still be talking about this this problem or why Oral Calislar would be writing that column?



Edited (9/4/2009) by thehandsom
Edited (9/4/2009) by thehandsom

10.       mhsn supertitiz
518 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 12:37 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

 

I am not sure how it is now, some things have changed under the pressure of EU, but not that long ago, before the barbaric tortures against Kurds by the modern turkish government, Kurds were not even allowed to use kurdish names for their children, not to mention celebrating their cultural holidays, or using their language in public places..

 

I do wonder why Clinton is so loved by Turks, maybe the atrocities against Kurds campaign and US involvement has some insight into it..

turkish atrocities against Kurds

 

how about the barbaric kurdish terror against the Turks? You don`t want to see that because the kurds did your dirty jobs in your muslim genocide in Iraq, right? you want to see the pictures of the babies and civilians killed by your beloved kurdish terrorists?

11.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 01:03 pm

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

 

I am not sure how it is now, some things have changed under the pressure of EU, but not that long ago, before the barbaric tortures against Kurds by the modern turkish government, Kurds were not even allowed to use kurdish names for their children, not to mention celebrating their cultural holidays, or using their language in public places..

 

I do wonder why Clinton is so loved by Turks, maybe the atrocities against Kurds campaign and US involvement has some insight into it..

turkish atrocities against Kurds

 

Well 

Unfortunately, you are not very wrong with your above comments

70.000 people (´mainly kurdish´ )  died there, thousands of village names were changed, kurdish was banned and indeed, the very existance of Kurds were denied for a long time..

All these have documents here and there..

From ´Documentation of assimilation policies at state level´ to  decisions of EU human right court about burning villages/unlawful killings etc..

 Unfortunately ´denying these´ will not do any good to Turkey..Just more embarresment..

But the good thing is now WE are able to talk about these and ´what we have done´ is widely accepted in Turkey at the state level..(only ultra right wing racist party MHP is resisting )

12.       mhsn supertitiz
518 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 01:51 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

Well 

Unfortunately, you are not very wrong with your above comments

70.000 people (´mainly kurdish´ )  died there, thousands of village names were changed, kurdish was banned and indeed, the very existance of Kurds were denied for a long time..

All these have documents here and there..

From ´Documentation of assimilation policies at state level´ to  decisions of EU human right court about burning villages/unlawful killings etc..

 Unfortunately ´denying these´ will not do any good to Turkey..Just more embarresment..

But the good thing is now WE are able to talk about these and ´what we have done´ is widely accepted in Turkey at the state level..(only ultra right wing racist party MHP is resisting )

 

yeah they are so assimilated that they don`t even carry out honor killings or live under their fascistic asiret rule anymore!

13.       si++
3785 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 02:00 pm

 

Quoting Trudy

 

 

 You don´t think they can? Well, that proves you have never been there or to other cities/places where the majority is Kurdish. I have. And even with my limited Turkish of about 400 words I could understand them and hear the difference between Turkish and Kurmanci.

 

Trudy,

 

Your wording above is not clear to me. Can you clarify?

 

Titiz says he doesn´t think they speak Turkish in stores. So he means, according to me, they can speak Kurdish without any problem.

 

Do you mean they speak Turkish instead of Kurmanci in stores? Otherwise what is your objection to his statement if they don´t speak Turkish in stores as he said?

 

14.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 02:45 pm

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

how about the barbaric kurdish terror against the Turks? You don`t want to see that because the kurds did your dirty jobs in your muslim genocide in Iraq, right? you want to see the pictures of the babies and civilians killed by your beloved kurdish terrorists?

 

I told you to read up about your country, but apparently you haven´t! those terrorist acts are a RESULT of what you had done to them first, so YOU are the cause of this, and you should only blame yourself for it.



Edited (9/4/2009) by catwoman

15.       Melek74
1506 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 02:53 pm

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

 

 

 

it`s funny that the answer is;  the Kurds can do all the things you listed above in Turkey except the ones you made up such as that I can go to a store in America and talk to the staff in Turkish.<img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast) If the staff is Kurdish they can speak in Kurdish for sure. I don`t think anyone speak in Turkish in the stores in Diyarbakir.why don`t you educate yourself a little bit before making silly assumptions?

 

 

Traditionally you missed the point of my post and what I was responding to.

 

The answer that I was hoping for on your part, was: I really do not know anything about the West and I use words without fully understanding their meaning.

 

Good thing I didn´t hold my breath.

 

P.S. I´d be happy to get educated by you on Turkey, but for some reason your posts are never abundant in information, only emotionally charged name calling.



Edited (9/4/2009) by Melek74

16.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 02:54 pm

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

Well 

Unfortunately, you are not very wrong with your above comments

70.000 people (´mainly kurdish´ )  died there, thousands of village names were changed, kurdish was banned and indeed, the very existance of Kurds were denied for a long time..

All these have documents here and there..

From ´Documentation of assimilation policies at state level´ to  decisions of EU human right court about burning villages/unlawful killings etc..

 Unfortunately ´denying these´ will not do any good to Turkey..Just more embarresment..

But the good thing is now WE are able to talk about these and ´what we have done´ is widely accepted in Turkey at the state level..(only ultra right wing racist party MHP is resisting )

 

what about the thousands of destroyed villages, what about the tortures at home, in prisons, on the streets, what about the rapes and killings of women and children..

it is AMAZING that nobody in turkey talks about it!

17.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 03:05 pm

This is a weird mentality Catwoman. If what you mean by "you" is an all-inclusive statement refering to anything from the government to the people and to all the institutions of a nation then you are talking about a plague - an epidemic for which there is no cure. Again in line with your thinking, the PKK terror is justified. That it claimed the lives of thousands of people, that it hampered progress in the region despite the desire of millions of peaceful Kurds have no weight in your line of thinking. We are all responsible for it and we must now bear the consequences. Good thing, we still have sane people around (unlike muhsin and you in this context) who are working on solutions rather than shoveling coal into the fire.

 

Quoting catwoman

 

 

I told you to read up about your country, but apparently you haven´t! those terrorist acts are a RESULT of what you had done to them first, so YOU are the cause of this, and you should only blame yourself for it.

 

 

18.       Trudy
7887 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 03:28 pm

 

Quoting si++

 

 

Trudy,

 

Your wording above is not clear to me. Can you clarify?

 

Titiz says he doesn´t think they speak Turkish in stores. So he means, according to me, they can speak Kurdish without any problem.

 

Do you mean they speak Turkish instead of Kurmanci in stores? Otherwise what is your objection to his statement if they don´t speak Turkish in stores as he said?

 

 

Tami said that he doesn´t think they speak Turkish in stores but - to me - the undertone was that they are not able to. As a tourist I found out they were, not to me - my Turkish nor my Kurmanci are sufficient enough to follow and/or have a complete conversation in but to others. I can hear the difference between them. I´ve heard salesmen spoke both languages.

19.       si++
3785 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 03:38 pm

 

Quoting Trudy

 

 

Tami said that he doesn´t think they speak Turkish in stores but - to me - the undertone was that they are not able to. As a tourist I found out they were, not to me - my Turkish nor my Kurmanci are sufficient enough to follow and/or have a complete conversation in but to others. I can hear the difference between them. I´ve heard salesmen spoke both languages.

I don´t see where the undertone was that they are not able to.

 

I don´ t see any "can" in the following sentence:

I don`t think anyone speak in Turkish in the stores in Diyarbakir.

 

To me it means they don´t speak Turkish (whether they can or not is a different matter).

20.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 03:58 pm

I stayed in Diyarbakir for three months  in the early 80´s, as a guest of my uncle who had been  working in the City as a doctor  (doctors are required to serve in the East for a certain period of time before they can work elsewhere). My impression of Diyarbakir was a bit mixed. There used to be dwellings on one side of the town that resembled medieval towns where people led traditional lives in complete misery.  There were also nicer streets (one of them being Ofis) where civil servants and wealthier people lived. Since there was not much of economic activity other than craftsmanship and petty trade, civil servants were considered rich.

 

In the streets of Diyarbakir, there was a feeling of tension, a keen awareness of anything non-Kurdish. When you entered a shop where a few people had been talking to one another in their local Kurdish dialect, the conversation would immediately stop and people would turn all their attention to you. If you have a lighter complexion which is a tell-tale sign of your not belonging there, you would notice this more often.



Edited (9/4/2009) by vineyards

21.       libralady
5152 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 04:25 pm

 

Quote:

Quoting thehandsom


Education in one’s native language is a human right. In today’s world the right to learn and teach one’s native language demanded by millions of citizens is an irrefutable legitimate right.

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

 

 

 

This pretty much proves that all the western countries are violating human rights. will you criticize these fascistwestern  countries? <img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)

 

 Not quite sure how we would cope in the UK, teaching in everyones own language, there are over 300 spoken here. 

22.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 04:55 pm

 

Quoting libralady

 

Quote:

Quoting thehandsom


Education in one’s native language is a human right. In today’s world the right to learn and teach one’s native language demanded by millions of citizens is an irrefutable legitimate right.

 

 Not quite sure how we would cope in the UK, teaching in everyones own language, there are over 300 spoken here. 

 

 

Exactly, libra, I agree....here in the US we would make ourselves crazy trying to teach in every language.  I personally think if Kurds want to be accepted as part of Turkish society, they should probably start speaking the language of the Turks.  Turkey IS there native land now, handsom.  I don´t understand why there is so much resistance to become part of Turkish society.  They feel very discriminated against, yet they put themselves on the outside of society by not learning the language.....seems like a little give and take is needed on both sides. 

23.       catwoman
8933 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 04:56 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

This is a weird mentality Catwoman. If what you mean by "you" is an all-inclusive statement refering to anything from the government to the people and to all the institutions of a nation then you are talking about a plague - an epidemic for which there is no cure. Again in line with your thinking, the PKK terror is justified. That it claimed the lives of thousands of people, that it hampered progress in the region despite the desire of millions of peaceful Kurds have no weight in your line of thinking. We are all responsible for it and we must now bear the consequences. Good thing, we still have sane people around (unlike muhsin and you in this context) who are working on solutions rather than shoveling coal into the fire.

 

 The only reason why I put the blame on the generic "you" is because I think that unless the issue is accepted and the guilty admit to their mistakes, there is no solution possible. I think that it is the responsibility of the Turkish people to admit to the atrocities commited by their government and their compliance and without that I do not see a real solution. It is very similar to Americans having to accept and admit the atrocities their government commits around the world and their compliance to it.. Isn´t that what you expect from them?

Yes, violence is never a solution, just from this experience we can see that the government´s violence towards Kurds only bred more violence back from the Kurds. And the only solution that the government and the population can come up with now is MORE VIOLENCE! It is absolutely ridiculous.. and clearly not going to get us anywhere.. only will cause more INNOCENT deaths on both sides..

24.       Melek74
1506 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 08:37 pm

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

 

 

how about the barbaric kurdish terror against the Turks? You don`t want to see that because the kurds did your dirty jobs in your muslim genocide in Iraq, right? you want to see the pictures of the babies and civilians killed by your beloved kurdish terrorists?

 

The only ´Muslim genocide" in Iraq is that commited by Iraq against Kurds in the al-Anfal campaign. Do you want to see pictures of the babies and civilians killed by your beloved Iraqi Muslims?



Edited (9/4/2009) by Melek74
Edited (9/4/2009) by Melek74

25.       bydand
755 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 09:31 pm

                                                                                                                                                Quote Elisabeth

Exactly, libra, I agree....here in the US we would make ourselves crazy trying to teach in every language.  I personally think if Kurds want to be accepted as part of Turkish society, they should probably start speaking the language of the Turks.  Turkey IS there native land now, handsom.  I don´t understand why there is so much resistance to become part of Turkish society.  They feel very discriminated against, yet they put themselves on the outside of society by not learning the language.....seems like a little give and take is needed on both sides. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Excellent post Elisabeth. I agree with thehandsom there is a Kurdish problem but the heart of the problem seems to be the Kurds themselves. Concessions will have to be made on both sides but many of the Kurdish people don´t seem to be willing to compromise.

 

 



Edited (9/4/2009) by bydand

26.       _AE_
677 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 10:10 pm

 

Quoting bydand

                                                                                                                                                Quote Elisabeth

Exactly, libra, I agree....here in the US we would make ourselves crazy trying to teach in every language.  I personally think if Kurds want to be accepted as part of Turkish society, they should probably start speaking the language of the Turks.  Turkey IS there native land now, handsom.  I don´t understand why there is so much resistance to become part of Turkish society.  They feel very discriminated against, yet they put themselves on the outside of society by not learning the language.....seems like a little give and take is needed on both sides. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Excellent post Elisabeth. I agree with thehandsom there is a Kurdish problem but the heart of the problem seems to be the Kurds themselves. Concessions will have to be made on both sides but many of the Kurdish people don´t seem to be willing compromise.

 

 

 

 I would agree if the Kurds had immigated to Turkey, but, to my knowledge, were they not inhabiting that area BEFORE Turkey became Turkey?

27.       vineyards
1954 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 10:26 pm

 

Quoting _AE_

 

 

 I would agree if the Kurds had immigated to Turkey, but, to my knowledge, were they not inhabiting that area BEFORE Turkey became Turkey?

 

Anatolia is also known as the cradle of civilizations.  Where are all those people? They are us. We are the heirs of all the civilizations that lived in Anatolia. That´s why they call Anatolia a mozaic. Turk is not the name of a race, it is the name of the people of anatolia. Femmefatal said something about this matter that made sense.

28.       bydand
755 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 10:28 pm

 

Quoting _AE_

 

 

 I would agree if the Kurds had immigated to Turkey, but, to my knowledge, were they not inhabiting that area BEFORE Turkey became Turkey?

 

 Yes, and they also inhabitated large parts of what is now Iran,Iraq and a small part of Syria. A separate Kurdistan is not likely to happen.

29.       _AE_
677 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 10:28 pm

 

Quoting vineyards

 

 

Anatolia is also known as the cradle of civilizations.  Where are all those people? They are us. We are the heirs of all the civilizations that lived in Anatolia. That´s why they call Anatolia a mozaic. Turk is not the name of a race, it is the name of the people of anatolia. Femmefatal said something about this matter that made sense.

 

 But my point is that Kurds did not suddenly decide to live in "Turkey" - they have always been there, so why do they have to change their language?

30.       bydand
755 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 10:43 pm

 

Quoting _AE_

 

 

 But my point is that Kurds did not suddenly decide to live in "Turkey" - they have always been there, so why do they have to change their language?

 

 As vineyards said there has been many civilisations living in this area. I don´t know if the Kurds were the first occupants.

31.       _AE_
677 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 10:46 pm

 

Quoting bydand

 

 

 As vineyards said there has been many civilisations living in this area. I don´t know if the Kurds were the first occupants.

 

 Me neither - but I guess it depends on how far we go back

32.       armegon
1872 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 11:00 pm

 Thats true something changed under the pressure of EU, thats people became more hostile to eachother.  And what about thousands of innocent Turkish citizens killed by Kurdish facists? As i know Kurds are using their language everywhere except the official institutions. Besides what are their cultural holidays? As far as i know nowadays they celebrate the 15th of August where 33 Turkish soldiers killed which is not cultural. By the way is there a country called Kurdistan established that we dont know? As some members here comparing it to Turkey & Poland. History repeats itself and i advice you to research how many Kurdish riots uprised during war of independence and the following years instead of trying to give history lessons here and who were behind those riots. In fact Turks expect initiative from Kurds, like its beter if they do not stone the government offices as they just used those offices, its better if they choose parlimentarian not from a prison but from a school, its better if they send their girls and boys to school instead of demanding official Kurdish education, its better if they riot against their feudal system instead of state, its better if they do not sabotage the enterprices and investments that the state provides, then the problem is mostly solved... 

Quoting catwoman

 

I am not sure how it is now, some things have changed under the pressure of EU, but not that long ago, before the barbaric tortures against Kurds by the modern turkish government, Kurds were not even allowed to use kurdish names for their children, not to mention celebrating their cultural holidays, or using their language in public places..

 

I do wonder why Clinton is so loved by Turks, maybe the atrocities against Kurds campaign and US involvement has some insight into it..

 

 

 

33.       armegon
1872 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 11:01 pm

 Exactly!

Quoting bydand

                                                                                                                                                Quote Elisabeth

but the heart of the problem seems to be the Kurds themselves. Concessions will have to be made on both sides but many of the Kurdish people don´t seem to be willing compromise.

 

 

 

 

34.       Elisabeth
5732 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 11:14 pm

 

Quoting _AE_

 

 

 I would agree if the Kurds had immigated to Turkey, but, to my knowledge, were they not inhabiting that area BEFORE Turkey became Turkey?

 

 You make a really great point...however, we don´t speak any native American language as an official language in the US....they all speak English.  Maybe its not fair but it is reality and we can sit an argue about it all day but the official language of Turkey is Turkish and I think it is not unreasonable to expect the citizens of Turkey to speak Turkish.  By the same token, Kurds should NOT be discriminated against if they speak Kurdish in their own home or businesses...etc...

35.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 11:26 pm

 

Quoting armegon

 Thats true something changed under the pressure of EU, thats people became more hostile to eachother.  And what about thousands of innocent Turkish citizens killed by Kurdish facists? As i know Kurds are using their language everywhere except the official institutions. Besides what are their cultural holidays? As far as i know nowadays they celebrate the 15th of August where 33 Turkish soldiers killed which is not cultural. By the way is there a country called Kurdistan established that we dont know? As some members here comparing it to Turkey & Poland. History repeats itself and i advice you to research how many Kurdish riots uprised during war of independence and the following years instead of trying to give history lessons here and who were behind those riots. In fact Turks expect initiative from Kurds, like its beter if they do not stone the government offices as they just used those offices, its better if they choose parlimentarian not from a prison but from a school, its better if they send their girls and boys to school instead of demanding official Kurdish education, its better if they riot against their feudal system instead of state, its better if they do not sabotage the enterprices and investments that the state provides, then the problem is mostly solved... 

 

 

 

Do you know how many people died exactly?

Can you show me an official documentation showing the ethnicity of the people who died?

Can you tell us how many of them were kurdish and how many of them were turkish?

Can you also tell us that how those kurds died (a mass suicide)?

Do you know how many times our own goverment punished by EU human rights court? (do you recognize is as a court?)

Do you know that there are 17.000 kurds gone missing  and their bones are being found here and there? how do you think they have gone missing? magic?

And what do you think the solution from your side apart from ´we want to kill them all and cause many more  turks-kurds got killed´?

If they were not rebelious, put your hand into your heart and tell us, would you give any RIGHTS to the people who said they were kurds?

I mean would you recognize their identity? would you recognize their language?

 

 

36.       Melek74
1506 posts
 04 Sep 2009 Fri 11:42 pm

 

Quoting armegon

By the way is there a country called Kurdistan established that we dont know? As some members here comparing it to Turkey & Poland. History repeats itself and i advice you to research how many Kurdish riots uprised during war of independence and the following years instead of trying to give history lessons here and who were behind those riots.

 

You know, you´re right. I didn´t even think about it. I was comparing the situation to the situation of immigrants, but I didn´t even think of Poland´s history of fight for their independence when they were divided between neighbouring countries and wiped from the map for almost 150 years. The Poles too had to fight for the independence in several uprisings (which I´m sure the government considered as terrorist) and they had to preserve the language, which the Russians, Prussians and Austrians wanted to eradicate via the process of germanization or russification. Good thing they didn´t succeed or I would have to speak German now, which is not the sexiest of languages (in my opinion). History does repeat itself, sometimes in a different part of the world.

37.       armegon
1872 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 12:01 am

 As usual you jumped thehandsom, what is your post relevance to my post except your standard agitations? I dont need to research ethnicities as the ones who killed were Turkish citizens. And regarding the bones you mentioned, do you know their ethnicities? do you mean 17000 people´s bones found? In fact its proved bones were dog bones. I explained the solution in my previous post if you read carefully. Actually they have the same rights like all Turkish citizens. The question is what they want from state now other than ordinary Turkish citizen have.

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

Do you know how many people died exactly?

Can you show me an official documentation showing the ethnicity of the people who died?

Can you tell us how many of them were kurdish and how many of them were turkish?

Can you also tell us that how those kurds died (a mass suicide)?

Do you know how many times our own goverment punished by EU human rights court? (do you recognize is as a court?)

Do you know that there are 17.000 kurds gone missing  and their bones are being found here and there? how do you think they have gone missing? magic?

And what do you think the solution from your side apart from ´we want to kill them all and cause many more  turks-kurds got killed´?

If they were not rebelious, put your hand into your heart and tell us, would you give any RIGHTS to the people who said they were kurds?

I mean would you recognize their identity? would you recognize their language?

 

 

 

 



Edited (9/5/2009) by armegon

38.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 12:13 am

 

Quoting armegon

 As usual you jumped thehandsom, what is your post relevance to my post except your standard agitations? I dont need to research ethnicities as the ones who killed were Turkish citizens. And regarding the bones you mentioned, do you know their ethnicities? do you mean 17000 people´s bones found? In fact its proved bones were dog bones. I explained the solution in my previous post if you read carefully. Actually they have the same rights like all Turkish citizens. The question is what they want from state now other than ordinary Turkish citizen have.

 

 

 

As usual  you are in denial..

You did not answer my questions lol (I bet you do NOT know the answers )

well..how relevant? since it is called ´KURDISH PROBLEM´ I think how many kurds died is very relevant..

Because you do not CARE how many kurds died that is why we have KURDISH PROBLEM!!

It may not be RELEVANT to you..but it is really relevant to the KURDS specially..

 

If they all had the same rights as Turks ( lol ) why do you think half of the Turkish media is talking about the KURDISH problem and trying to find solutions (including the army)

 

17.000 are missing, some of them  were identified with DNA matching and everyday we are learning where they got burried how they got killed etc.

do not worry..They are all coming out

 

 

 

 

39.       mhsn supertitiz
518 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 12:19 am

 

Quoting Melek74

 

 

The only ´Muslim genocide" in Iraq is that commited by Iraq against Kurds in the al-Anfal campaign. Do you want to see pictures of the babies and civilians killed by your beloved Iraqi Muslims?

 

hahaha that genocide was commited with the help of america. who gave saddam those biological weapons to kill the Kurds? Turkey or your beloved christian americans? and those kurds were killed for being kurds not for being muslims, so calling it a muslim genocide shows how clueless you are.

 

want to see the pictures of Iraqis genocided and tortured by your fellow christians?



Edited (9/5/2009) by mhsn supertitiz
Edited (9/5/2009) by mhsn supertitiz

40.       mhsn supertitiz
518 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 12:21 am

 

Quoting _AE_

 

 

 But my point is that Kurds did not suddenly decide to live in "Turkey" - they have always been there, so why do they have to change their language?

 

why don`t you give the Irish the right to get education in their own language in England? are you aware of the fact that you`re violating human rights? they have always been in Britain, so why do they have to change their language?



Edited (9/5/2009) by mhsn supertitiz

41.       mhsn supertitiz
518 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 12:31 am

 

Quoting armegon

 Thats true something changed under the pressure of EU, thats people became more hostile to eachother.  And what about thousands of innocent Turkish citizens killed by Kurdish facists? As i know Kurds are using their language everywhere except the official institutions. Besides what are their cultural holidays? As far as i know nowadays they celebrate the 15th of August where 33 Turkish soldiers killed which is not cultural. By the way is there a country called Kurdistan established that we dont know? As some members here comparing it to Turkey & Poland. History repeats itself and i advice you to research how many Kurdish riots uprised during war of independence and the following years instead of trying to give history lessons here and who were behind those riots. In fact Turks expect initiative from Kurds, like its beter if they do not stone the government offices as they just used those offices, its better if they choose parlimentarian not from a prison but from a school, its better if they send their girls and boys to school instead of demanding official Kurdish education, its better if they riot against their feudal system instead of state, its better if they do not sabotage the enterprices and investments that the state provides, then the problem is mostly solved... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

+100000000000

42.       armegon
1872 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 12:35 am

I replied questions and proposed a solution if you can read since the problem stems from the Kurds themselves. And instead of repeating the same things, the question should be replied that is what they want from state now other than ordinary Turkish citizen have.

Quoting sthehandsom

43.       Daydreamer
3743 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 12:44 am

There are many things to consider when talking about the situation of Kurds in Turkey. They most certainly are a minority in that country and going back to who was the first to settle there is pointless. History is past, what remains and is worth working on is the future. I can understand that some Kurds who remember being treated as second-class citizens have developed a dislike for the Turkish government. As we know hatered takes on quickly and if you live in the area where you´re taught to hate, you do it. I can also understand the Turkish resentment over a group of people who do not feel Turks despite living within the political borders of that country. I am not going to comment on the terrorism as you already know I am against fighting for your ideals in this form.

 

About the language, I can only partially agree with bed Amerikans - as long as Kurds have Turkish citizenships, they should have a working knowledge of Turkish. And there should be no exceptions. Even if Turkey held a national referendum whether to recognise Kurdish as second official language and it passed, I think Kurds should know Turkish.  However, there are different ways of providing Kurds with the opportunity to learn about their ethnicity and language. I am talking about things that work in EU countries - there are schools with the main language being not the country´s official language (but it doesn´t mean that the students do not have to take exams in the official language as well). Poland is an example, the region where I come from is full of people of German descent. Although Polish is the only official language, there is a number of schools with German being the main language taught. And nobody has a problem with that. Also, all towns in the area had a chance to introduce double place names - in Polish and German. Some of them voted yes and some no. Moreover, nobody died during the process...

 

I believe it takes two sides to communicate - and good will on both sides. In the long run it is tolerance and understanding that solves problems.

44.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 12:46 am

 

Quoting armegon

I replied questions and proposed a solution if you can read since the problem stems from the Kurds themselves. And instead of repeating the same things, the question should be replied that is what they want from state now other than ordinary Turkish citizen have.

Quoting sthehandsom

 

I can not see any answers armegon I do NOT think you are telling the truth there..

and THE  solution is this?

 Turks expect initiative from Kurds, like its beter if they do not stone the government offices as they just used those offices, its better if they choose parlimentarian not from a prison but from a school, its better if they send their girls and boys to school instead of demanding official Kurdish education, its better if they riot against their feudal system instead of state, its better if they do not sabotage the enterprices and investments that the state provides, then the problem is mostly solved... 


lol lol lol 



45.       bydand
755 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 01:14 am

 

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

I can not see any answers armegon I do NOT think you are telling the truth there..

and THE  solution is this?

 Turks expect initiative from Kurds, like its beter if they do not stone the government offices as they just used those offices, its better if they choose parlimentarian not from a prison but from a school, its better if they send their girls and boys to school instead of demanding official Kurdish education, its better if they riot against their feudal system instead of state, its better if they do not sabotage the enterprices and investments that the state provides, then the problem is mostly solved... 


lol lol lol 



 

I cannot understand your thinking handsom. I think it goes a long to explaining the massacre of a family of 44 near Mardin in a domestic dispute. To be taken seriously the vast majority of the honest hard working Kurdish people have to rise above this.

46.       armegon
1872 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 01:15 am

 Yep, dont you like it?  Those are truths that we exprienced, of course not my made-ups, those are the observations of public. So now whats the reply to my question? What are demands of Kurds? What is this unknown initiative?

Quoting thehandsom

 

 

I can not see any answers armegon I do NOT think you are telling the truth there..

and THE  solution is this?

 Turks expect initiative from Kurds, like its beter if they do not stone the government offices as they just used those offices, its better if they choose parlimentarian not from a prison but from a school, its better if they send their girls and boys to school instead of demanding official Kurdish education, its better if they riot against their feudal system instead of state, its better if they do not sabotage the enterprices and investments that the state provides, then the problem is mostly solved... 


lol lol lol 



 

 

47.       Melek74
1506 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 01:18 am

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

 

 

hahaha that genocide was commited with the help of america. who gave saddam those biological weapons to kill the Kurds? Turkey or your beloved christian americans? and those kurds were killed for being kurds not for being muslims, so calling it a muslim genocide shows how clueless you are.

 

want to see the pictures of Iraqis genocided and tortured by your fellow christians?

 

I see, typically, you interpret history to suit your agenda. No surprises there.

And typically, the sarcasm escapes you (have you noticed the quotation markes around the phrase by any chance? methinks not).

 

It is only the rules of the forum that prevent me from freely express my opinion about your intellectual abilities.

 

48.       mhsn supertitiz
518 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 01:22 am

 

Quoting Melek74

 

 

It is only the rules of the forum that prevent me from freely express my opinion about your intellectual abilities.

 

 

 

you can always pm me. I`m looking forward to mark you spam <img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)

 



Edited (9/5/2009) by mhsn supertitiz

49.       Melek74
1506 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 01:26 am

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

 

 

 

you can always pm me. I`m looking forward to mark you spam <img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)

 

 

Don´t flatter yourself with the idea of getting a pm from me darling.

 

 

50.       mhsn supertitiz
518 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 01:30 am

 

Quoting Melek74

 

 

Don´t flatter yourself with the idea of getting a pm from me darling.

 

 

 

no just the marking you spam part turns me on. Razz it would be hot if there was also a high kick button next to spam.

51.       bydand
755 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 01:36 am

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

 

 

no just the marking you spam part turns me on. Razz it would be hot if there was also a high kick button next to spam.

 

 Nice to see two members communicating and observing the new code of practice. <img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)

52.       catwoman
8933 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 01:36 am

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

no just the marking you spam part turns me on. Razz it would be hot if there was also a high kick button next to spam.

 

and this is exactly what happens when someone disagrees with tami!!! lol this seems to be exactly why he starts threads in the first place -- for an opportunity to spit out his venom and hatred on those who disagree with him.

free-speaking world is not exactly a place for you tami!! I´m guessing that that´s not what you got used to growing up in Turkey either.

53.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 01:41 am

 

Quoting armegon

 Yep, dont you like it?  Those are truths that we exprienced, of course not my made-ups, those are the observations of public. So now whats the reply to my question? What are demands of Kurds? What is this unknown initiative?

 

 

 

what unknown initive?

The kurdish initive which is done by the government endorsed by the army and Turkish people?

What you are saying as an answer to Kurdish PROBLEM is being said for last 25 years and the result is 70.000 dead..

You may have desire to see another 70.000 people dead (rather than giving their basic human rights) but TURKS AND KURDS dont..

That is where we are now, despite your annoyance lol lol ..

(But a year ago or so,I have already told you these )

54.       armegon
1872 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 03:02 am

 I mean the concepts of this initiative is unknown. Do you know the concept? If so please tell us, and people can learn. By the way if you are talking about MGK by saying army also approves this, i cant say anything about that as i dont know the concepts of MGK meeting. But highly possible that tayyip lied to them as he lied in Azerbaijan parliament .  Just look at the latest army declarations online and understand why ur dear al-taraf, zaman vakit and variety of republic enemies attacking them whereas the declarations were very levelled and very-well organised that i completely agree.  So where are we now? Whats the concept of this Kurdish initiative, whats the purpose? Why ur dear akp hesitating to voice it? And why they suddenly changed the agenda to the armenian initiative ? What Kurds demanding from the state? If it is concession rather than a Turkish citizen, of course im against it, and if the army approves this, im against them too, im sure they are prepared to see more anarchism then maybe another warWink, so nothing changes from my side, now lets see what is this initiative and lets see how it works or not...

Quoting thehandsom

what unknown initive?

The kurdish initive which is done by the government endorsed by the army and Turkish people?

What you are saying as an answer to Kurdish PROBLEM is being said for last 25 years and the result is 70.000 dead..

You may have desire to see another 70.000 people dead (rather than giving their basic human rights) but TURKS AND KURDS dont..

That is where we are now, despite your annoyance lol lol ..

(But a year ago or so,I have already told you these )

 

 

55.       Melek74
1506 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 03:58 am

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

 

 

no just the marking you spam part turns me on. Razz it would be hot if there was also a high kick button next to spam.

 

Really? It would be hot for you to kick a woman? Scared

 

I have to say I´m a little surprised at that one, I didn´t expect that even from you.

56.       mhsn supertitiz
518 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 04:21 am

 

 

Quoting Melek74

 

 

Really? It would be hot for you to kick a woman? Scared

 

I have to say I´m a little surprised at that one, I didn´t expect that even from you.

 

a woman? you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBLDBDFRp6E

 

<img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)<img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)

57.       Melek74
1506 posts
 05 Sep 2009 Sat 05:45 am

 

Quoting mhsn supertitiz

 

 

 

a woman? you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBLDBDFRp6E

 

<img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)<img src='/static/images/smileys//lol.gif' alt='lol'> (fast)

 

Obviously you have no idea what a woman is. What are you waiting for? Grapes?

58.       thehandsom
7403 posts
 06 Sep 2009 Sun 01:46 pm

 

Quoting armegon

 I mean the concepts of this initiative is unknown. Do you know the concept? If so please tell us, and people can learn. By the way if you are talking about MGK by saying army also approves this, i cant say anything about that as i dont know the concepts of MGK meeting. But highly possible that tayyip lied to them as he lied in Azerbaijan parliament .  Just look at the latest army declarations online and understand why ur dear al-taraf, zaman vakit and variety of republic enemies attacking them whereas the declarations were very levelled and very-well organised that i completely agree.  So where are we now? Whats the concept of this Kurdish initiative, whats the purpose? Why ur dear akp hesitating to voice it? And why they suddenly changed the agenda to the armenian initiative ? What Kurds demanding from the state? If it is concession rather than a Turkish citizen, of course im against it, and if the army approves this, im against them too, im sure they are prepared to see more anarchism then maybe another warWink, so nothing changes from my side, now lets see what is this initiative and lets see how it works or not...

 

 

 

Well for you we still dont have a kurdish problem..It is all bastard western countries..

I am not that surprised that anything comes up as a solution to our Kurdish problem or to stop young people getting killed will be rejected by you.

Because we dont have a Kurdish problem. do we?

 

Anyway..

so going back to the begining of this thread

would education in Kurdish split Turkey? or can kurdish language seperate our country?

The answer is:

If you BAN a language, if you say YOU DONT HAVE A LANGUAGE, if you still INSIST ´I wont let you write, i wont let you read, i wont let you speak in that language´ then YES that language can split Turkey. 


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