Merhaba!

I would like to know, traditionaly (and non traditionaly), how long a couple would wait before introducing their boyfriend/girlfriend to their family?

I have heard that its not ´important´ to introduce girlfriends/boyfriends to families untill maybe after 1-2 years of dating. Is this typically true?

I know its probably different for different people/scenarios, but any insight into this subject would be much appreciated.

Tesekkurler

Katerina

From what I know there is no strict criteria. It all depends on what kind of family it is. If it is a modern family where dating is considered natural, then the person is introduced very early. If it´s a more traditional family in which dating is almost equivalent with marriage, then the girlfriend/boyfriend is introduced at the point when the person feels pretty confident about their partner being ´the one´.

As Catwoman has already written, it depends on the family.  In rather more "traditional" famlies, there is no dateing what so ever.....there are no boy or girl friends anyway. 

One or two years of dating....?????..........only very modern Turkish famlies would consider that. Even in the US, when a friend of the opposite sex is introduced to family, eyes are raised and the introduction is taken as a sign of something very serious........and sometimes it´s hard to convince them otherwise. 

Yes, that is true. In the more traditional families, there is no dating. People are hooked up through their families and meet a couple times, probably in the presence of the rest of the family, then get engaged and marry.

Maybe someone Turkish could clarify these things a bit more.

Its not quite as stark as your post seems to imply....It may be that way in some areas, but most have actually known each other as school mates, or through various social interactions growing up.  It´s just they don´t date.  After they are engaged they are able to spend a lot of time together.....just not alone...

As far as I can remember and this does not necessarily have to apply to the present time; if a boy is not willing to introduce a girl to his family, he is probably not considering the relationship very seriously.

Yes.. I know some relatively present exaples of that.. so this is still true.

I agree with Vineyards.

I can only speak for myself, but my fiance and I never had any problems regarding this subject. I was introduced at an early stage, we got to be just boyfriends/girlfriends with no pressure on anything more. We also lived together in Istanbul before getting engaged, and experienced no problems at all.  (Though not all of the older generations knew about it ).

And I would actually consider them a pretty traditional family too.

Nothing has confused me more then relationships in Turkey. Especially relationships of Turkish boys I have seen boys introduce girls to their so called traditional families after only a week or two, and introducing their second and third girlfriend as well (not second and third in time, I mean second and third girlfriend in the same moment in time). I can not put my finger on it. I can not even say "this is normal for traditional families and this for modern families."

Is their a general guideline in introducing your partner in Turkey? I´m saying no Each family has their own standards of what they think is normal...how hypocrite it may be at times.

 I don`t know what to say. So it happens, but do you really think this is normal? I can assure you it`s not. I disagree that this has anything to do with Turkish culture, or customs when it comes to introducing boyfriends or girlfriends to familymembers.

But I do think it is different procedures for boys and girls at times.

Have you considered the possibility the family is not being introduced to the females as romantic interests, but rather as foriegn guests/friends? 

When one consideres language differences, what the parents understand and what the girls understand could be very different.

I hope my family didn´t think I was serious about every boy I introduced them too!  I had a lot of guy friends that I was never romantically interested in....but then again, I am one of those crazy, non-traditional, rebelious, bed Americans!!   

Generally, if I was serious about someone, I would tell my family that I am serious about this person...SO PLEASE ME NICE!!

But then, I eloped with my husband!  VERY non-traditional!

*wonders if it´s about time to introduce her husband to her family*

 I am still thinking about it!  Not sure how serious I am about him! 

As you know well, western culture, values and prejudgments  and  Turkish culture, values and prejudgments are very difficult  concepts and things.

Western countries (like European Union-EU-) looks like each other.

But Türkiye is stuck between West and East.

So generally Turkish and  western friends do not mix well.

It is not mixable.

Because culture and tradition rule the communities.

Lis - good luck If it goes well for you, I might give it a go too

Yilgun - that´s nonsense! Not all the people are the same, regardless of what cultures they grew up in. EU countries are not the same, sure, in some respects there are similarites but it´s not universal alikeness! Moreover, two people from the same country can and often do have different values, goals and levels of accepting tradition. It is only up to individuals whether or not these can jeopardise prospective relationship. You can´t put all people in one bag. If you were right then there´d be no successful marriages between people from the EU and Turkey, or, all marriages within either Turkey or EU would be successful. And that´s not how it is

For Daydreamer.

Thank you.

But It is so hard.

Because Turkish and   western friends do not mix well generally...

Different cultures…It requires labour…

It all depends on how the outsider is introduced to the family; as a "friend" or a "girlfriend/boyfriend" ?

Most families can make a distinction between the two.

An introduction as a "girlfriend/boyfriend" does carry some weight and some responsibilities,  but no definite commitments on either side.

You only allowed him to skip the dowry, he would have been expected to pay your dad; sort of like a promotion sale free bonus !

 I always suspected he wisked me off for a reason!  Thanks Alpha!  Would it be inappropriate to send his family a bill at this point?  He is been very expensive, you know...with all the laptops, cellphones and gadgets. 

Never too late....who can blame you for trying?

Do not forget my counsellors´  fee, if you succeed !

Sure, no problem.  Do you accept payments in goats and chickens?

Nice to know you still consider us friends even if we can´t mix with you!

Mixing is no problem at all.....What is hard is to get the original ingredients back, afterwards ! 

Wow! I didnt expect such a wide and varied response, and from so many! Thank you to all, really, its very appreciated! I am still none the wiser, but i guess its just different for each individual.

Yilgun-2010...Ofcourse other nationalities can mix with Turkish people! I believe you are wrong  What ever gave you the idea that they can´t mix well?? My father is Greek Cypriot (born in Cyprus, grew up in England) and he married a Turkish woman, and they have been married for ten years so far! There must be thousands and thousands of Turkish people all over the world married to people with different cultures/beliefs....!

We just haven´t told our families yet!! 

As you know well,   friendship and marriage are different things.

This is a Turkish proverb : “ Davulun sesi uzaktan hoş gelir…”

I understand you very well.

Because I have friends from Samos and Crete islands; Athene and Selanik cities, and England (London).And I have been to Cyprus before.

I consider Türkiye, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Cyprus, other neighbours have similar / same social, traditional, historical culture and background.

Turkish and Western friends do not mix well generally : Different cultures...

I want to beieve.

I of course respect western science, culture and civilization.

But : I think and I see most  of Turkish and Western social, religious, traditional and cultural rules,  prejudices,  standarts,  norms and thoughts are not same.

There are some adaptation, adjustment, modification, reorganization and restruction problems.

Don’t count apples with pears.

So friendship and marriage require labour, culture, knowledge, understanding and tolerance..  

I agree that. My daughter learned for 2 years at a turkish school in Romania and half of their classmates was childs who have a turk father and a romanian mother...I met their parents and I was very impressed about them. In my country live 10% turkish peoples and most of them are married with romanians.

   from where did you get this ? Turkish minority in Romania represents 0,15%. The biggest minority are hungarians but even they have just 6,6%

Sorry for the digression but I couldn´t resist:

Romania is such a lovely country, greatly underestimated by many people. Oh the beautiful beaches of Constanta. And the breathtaking views along the Transylvanian Motorway...If only I could understand the basic words, count endless zeroes on the banknotes and find logic in the fact that "mixed salad" means getting your veggies separately

Sorry, maybe I have read an old news about minorities in Romania. I will search more about that

I have  read about Tuks of Romania at wikipedia, but now I see that it was a 2002 statistics and maybe the number of turksh peoples now is less. I have think that in most of southern part of my contry turkish peoples are living (Constanta, Tulcea counties), but maybe part of them was too old and died in the last years. And maybe there is the same situation like german minority, who went to Germany after 1990.

 Statistics from 2002 wikipedia turkish minority 0,15%

 http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comunităţi_etnice_în_România

Coople of weeks ago, I watched a documentary about the Gypsies of Romania and in that documentary they also mentioned the Muslim Gypsies in Romania and to my surprise their native language was Turkish. I wathed them speaking Turkish. I have no idea about their numbers in Romania and whether they are included in the above minority.

 I have never heared about that, I am very courious about that and I will searchIt seems very weird - Muslim and Gypsy; when did you watched this documentary and where, please

I have search on google and I find it

http://miris.eurac.edu/mugs2/do/blob.html?type=html&serial=1040119011902

but..I wonder..it is possible only in Romania? I am so curious if there are similar cases in other countries where turkish minority exist. Have you ever heared about that...

best regards

Something like 4 or 5 weeks ago. On a TRT channel. It was a documentary produced for TRT by a Turkish journalist but I don´t remember his name.

Yes also in Bulgaria there are muslim Romans and they prefer to be called "Turks" not Gypsies or Romans.

Here´s some text about them in Turkish if you can read.

Bulgaristan’daki “Türk Romanları’nın” durumu gerçekten de içler acısı.

Getto’larda yaşamak zorunda bırakılan Romanlar, komünist rejimdeki kadar olmasa bile ( komünist rejimde Roman kadınları zorla kısırlaştırılıyormuş diyorlar) yine hala sefalet içinde bir yaşama mahkûmlar ve yine hala bir takım baskı, hor görülme ve aşağılanmaya maruz kalıyorlar. Onların yaşadıkları mahalleler, “Türk Mahallesi” adıyla anılıyorlar. Ve oradaki Romanlar, belki de bizden fazla “Türklükleri ile gurur duyuyorlar”… Kendilerine, Roman ya da Çingene değil de “Türk” denilmesini istiyorlar. Geleneklerini, göreneklerini yaşatabilmek adına ellerinden geleni yapıyor, Türkçemize sahip çıkıyorlar. Tabi ki bunlar, Müslüman Romanlar. Bir de Hıristiyan olanlar var. Onların da hiçbir zaman 1. sınıf vatandaş olarak kabul görmediklerini unutmamak gerek. Balkanlardaki en ağır hakaretlerden biri de “Çingene” demek. Romanların kendilerine özgü bir dilleri olmasına rağmen, tarih boyunca hep hangi ülkede yaşamışlarsa o ülkenin resmi dili ile iletişim kumuşlar ve eğitim görmüşlerdir. Fakat öz kültürlerinden asla kopmamışlar, ne dilleri ne de gelenekleri asla yok olmamıştır.

 thank you for your nice words about my country

 Right...nice country...what a pitty that it is populated 

 yes..I agree...

 Daydreamer...or you are confusing the countries or i dont get the meaning of ´motorway´ 

Same here.  I introduced my parents to lots of guys, it´s not out of the ordinary to have boys as friends or even date someone for a few months.  Sorry Lis you are Traditional!

 Then how come you didnt introduce me your family yet????

Oh you were playing with my feelings from start ((

 As far as I know bed Americans the reason is

1.You don´t shave

2.You are not democratic puritan  and conservative enough

3.I bet you don´t even know Star  Sparkle Banner by heart

4.You don´t believe in egalitarism and women emancipation

5.You complain too much instead of saying"All is ok,I am fine"

6.You don´t watch Al Bundy and Bill Cosby show not to mention Oprah Winfrey ones

7.road 66 is still a mystery for you

etc,etc

Anyway,just abandon this American "from rags American to richness dream"No chance)

 Oh sui, it´s because she isn´t that serious about you yet!

will you talk to your parents about me??

Young unmarried ladies beware !

Technically speaking - for all guys, other than those with Turkish origins - the introduction process should involve an introduction of the guys to the parents, and not as described above.

I´m so traditional I introduced only one guy in my entire life to my family. If I´m not sure about the future with a guy, no way he´s seeing my family. Don´t want to have the "we broke up" talk with my grandma

Hmmm....that´s interesting..........and I just can´t help but ask....what was,who is, was/where is  that guy now?  Did you have to have that talk with your grandma?

 He went to the bank to get some money with my bankcard...he just told me his grandfather needs money for an operation, his sister needs money for shoes, and his brother needs money for school...  Well, he went to the bank about two months ago... I wonder why he isn´t back yet... do you think something might have happened?

Be patient, he still loves you. It´s just that his grandfather got very sick and he needs to look after him now as the grandfather has nobody else to help him. The grandfather has no phone, and the new mobile you bought your boyfriend is broken. He will send a letter explaining everything soon. He misses you so much.  

 ...explaining everything and asking for your 2nd bank card details...

Ive been reading over lots of posts in these forums regarding relationships with Turkish men and i have to say i am quite dissapointed. I am in my first relationship with a Turkish man, and i regard him to be the sweetest man i have ever met. Ive always said how he is so romantic with his words...and he told me he loved me after three days together. I thought this was because i simply swept him off his feet, but it appears that most Turkish men are quick to share their feelings of love for a woman. I have realised im probabaly not that special, its just in his/Turkish mens nature.

 You probably are very special.....but don´t ever let any man decide whether you are or not! 

My personal moto:  Always hold yourself with the highest regard, it will make you invulnerable to the lies of men. 

 I agree!

And with regard to the guy who said I love you.. what is most important are not his words, but his actions. Talk is cheap If he SHOWS you that he loves you, he might just be as in love as he says he is

 But i never felt special before i met him. I guess i will learn, in time, confidence growing etc.

Oh and, im going to try and remember your moto

Confidence can help you start things up !  But you still wont have any real control over what will happen next !

 I am impatiently awaiting Febuary, so i can hop onto an ucak over to Istanbul to be re-united with him! Then i shall see for certain. Thank you for your comment, this is one of the comments i will remember

Hi I´m also in my first relationship with a Turkish man. I´m Bulgarian girl and we met in USA A destiny what to do So I also read a lot about this kind of relationship but still everything depends on us after all. He lives in Istanbul and I visited him some times, he also visited me in the summer... The point is we never talk about anything like marriage.. Not I hurry up for that part but still I want to be together, live together somehow. It´s so complex really cause he needs a visa for every entry So my parents know about him, not admired but still they know he exists.. However his family, I´m sure, doesnt know about me and that kind of bothers me. He always says he just dont share with them so much... I don´t know what to think really Any advices?

P.S. He is making his military service now and he have one month left so I guess we need to make a step afterwards....

 How long have you been in a relationship with him? Visa´s complicate things slightly, but nothing is impossible! I am the same. My family know about my boyfriend, but he is reluctant to tell his family. I felt at first, maybe he was keeping me a secret, because i am not turkish/muslim/i dont know. But eventually he told his Father, but he didnt tell his mother or sister. It bothered me ALOT, but what can i do? I think maybe he is a private person, and as i am not in Turkey, it is difficult. I dont really have any advice for you, i wish i did, as i could take my own advice!

 I am visiting him in 7 weeks, and i am hoping to be introduced to his mother and his friends. Have you met any of your boyfriends family/friends? Because for me, meeting his family/friends will be the key in knowing how serious he is about me.

What kind of step will you be taking once he finished the military?

It is nice to speak to someone in a similar situation!

In my experience, if he didn´t tell his family yet, he´s not sure about a future with you. This might just be because you´re not together for that long, or for some other reason. But eventually, telling his family is very important.

Sometimes it is an advantage to be the ´foreign bride´. We have been dating for 5 years now, and I frequently stay over at his parents´. Actually, they just dropped me off home The fact that I am foreign and don´t have ´anyone´ here (in parental way), has made them take me into their family very quickly.

When I was introduced to his family, we were serious yes, but it was at such an early stage that nobody could know if we would be able to make it. We were 17 and 18 at the time. His brother, who is 18 now and has a Turkish girlfriend, hasn´t brought her home yet and is not planning to do so either.

The first time we met, they also met my parents, but the second time we met, they came as guests to visit me and Kadir when we were practically living together.

It has both to do with the way our relationship developed (we lived together after I was introduced to his parents only once, didn´t speak a word of Turkish), the fact thathis family is very modern, but also the fact that I am foreign and ´alone´ here. His parents take care of me as if I was their own child, and, with my bofyriend being in İzmir but me in Ankara (where his parents live), I frequently stay over there without my bf being there at all.

It really depends on family, but I have never heard that girlfriends are introduced quickly. The fact that someone is dating is generally known, but introduction comes later when the couple gets more serious. This is from personal experience from among friends, who are all from urban and modern environments, but I am sure there are different situations as well. As far as I know, foreign girlfriends aren´t introduced quickly.

Another example of how families may look upon relationships: when we both stay over at his parents, we sleep seperatly, eventhough the sofas we sleep on are both 2 person sofas. However, when they come over to stay with us, they don´t mind we sleep together. I think it may have to do with my status as ´guest´ (even after all these years I am still a guest, eventhough we all act as if Im part of the family, with the same rights and duties), or maybe it is something like ´not under my roof´

Anyway, don´t feel bad about not being introduced yet. Most of the time girlfriends aren´t introduced quickly, and the fact that you´re foreign doesn´t make it any faster However if he insists on not introducing you even after you have been dating several years, I´d start worry about how serious he is.

Yeah, normally it takes a bit longer to introduce the partner In my relationship things went a bit strange, because my Dutch mum was with me when I met him, and I actually met my father in law after knowing my partner for one and a half week Strange, I know, but looking back I´m so thankful for this, since his father died only three months after this. The in-laws are traditional people, so my guess was that my partner told them we were engaged before we actually were, since I was allowed to sleep with him in the same bed

I also had the experience of staying at a male friend´s house, and being send to the neighbors to sleep there! Another room, I could understand... but across the street... at the time that I didn´t speak a WORD of Turkish... and at a family who I had never met before... Strange experience

do foreign girlfriend will be introduced later? I just meet my turkish friend . and for the first time meeting through webcam, he had introduce me to his mother. i feel very shame. He said he wish to marry me and as  what he told me, he asked his family and they do not angry with that. His family accept his wish. Now, his mother keep makes handicrafts for me. His younger sister and his mother had sent me 2 scarfs and a pair of socks.I am very touched. I said to him i cannot confirm to be his wife as my journey is very far away. I still studying and looking forward to study in the UK and it will takes 3 years duration. I havent say to my parents .He does not mind with that and he adviced me to keep it for a while so that this special friendship will not disturb my study. He always call me and message even though while he is sailing. When he found internet connection, he will ask me to come to chat. I try to find some clues to say he cheated me but till now i dont have any signs to say that. What can i do to see the truth???Do he really want me?

maybe yes, maybe no No way of saying it, byt what you just told us.

Do like to have some of those socks though...

those socks are beautiful. Its handmade and like  a traditional sock Turkish wear. I like it because it is no where to have it here in my country.

I havent say ´i love u too´ and i havent say ´yes i do´ because its all depend on my family. He is ready to meet my parents but i refuse  it because i dont want them to know in this short time.

After his contract finish, he will come here and meet me. Its about next May. Then he will study here while i might study in the UK. I am sure that he will meet another good girls and i dont mind about that. I dont want to  have him permanantly till we are married. Therefore, there are a lot of possibilities now and as he said, time will determine all of them.

It seems that my case is upside down like the cases here

What make you say no, maybe i missed to think on that while i am thinking.....

...sounds like he needs to be more worried about you, then you about him...

We have just a week until his last day in military... We know each other from 5 years as we met in USA and then we just kept our friendship alive until last year when i went to see Istanbul and.. I fell in love with the city and him... before that we had only friendship status well with some background, but nothing serious...


All this time now, these last 5 months we were keeping in touch, writing, calling... we are like closest friends, not only a couple...

The point is I´m a christian, he is a muslim, I´m Bulgarian, he is Turkish (if you know our history, you can imagine how hard it is for people here to understand, cause Bulgaria has been under Ottoman Empire for 5 centuries!)... It´s like a crazy story, a crazy love and i still struggle but... I dont know until when I can resist... And I really dont know why he doesnt tell his parents... may be he is affraid they won´t accept me cause I´m a Christian.... I love my religion and I don´t mind Islam, everybody has the right to believe in whatever they want...

Kuskonmaz, I´d like to write with you more about that topic. I´ll send you my email and msn on a private message

Thank you girls, I will appreciate more advices.

and i know many of his friends when i was in istanbul, they all like me, even though they call me best friend of them... But family... I would be so happy if only once he say something like - Hi from my sister or mom or whoever... I do this with my family, they are not admired, but they are polite and they say - say hi to him...

I´m so confused really. I truly love him, and he loves me too but it´s so many differences and obstacles... the good news is we are not that far away cause we are neibouring countries... but he needs visa and I hope they acept them in EU soon!

i would say you need to relax ... this your tension about being introduced is felt. and other person would double think - WHY? looks like you are desperate to be introduced to be sure ab his feelings. any other way?

maybe just love him, enjoy the moment and create happiness for each other? maybe when you concentrate on yourself, your true feelings, wishes and expectations you will see and understand him more? have you ever think that he might protect you from his family?)

take away your emotions from this issue. and if you want (you feel that you just must discuss this matter) - talk about it. tell with confident voice, calm eyes - it is your curiosity. it is not only about being introduced, but about your wish to see them either. highlight other points in your relations. dont depend on his decision. let him know that it takes two.

in general it is not in your hand to change him. He is reflection of you. change yourself - more productive, discover yourself different, put different "make-up" on yourself and you will see different him.

and try to look at the situation through eyes of "third-party". you will see the different story and you will know what to do.

If i were a foreigner lady who is in love with a Turkish boy i would be patient to be introduced to the family and mostly focus on what i live.

Becouse most of those relations does not begin with the idea of "together future" however if things go well and both sides have hopes about that relationship, together spended time is needed to consider that as a serious relationship.

If both sides still think that they are compatible after they understand each other´s deeper feelings, ideas and expectations then its time to be introduced to the family.

I have to remind you that the ratio of happy ended relations between Turkish and non Turkish people is not so high...

OEINCE:

I have to remind you that the ratio of happy ended relations between Turkish and non Turkish people is not so high...

But WHY? Why is this? I am more understanding now towards the idea of meeting his mother/father etc. I spoke to a Turkish friend and she advised me that in his mind, he probabaly thinks ´why would i introduce her, i am not about to marry her yet´ So i completely understand why i wouldnt be introduced, and i am happy with that. However, i have recently been informed that his mother is NOT happy about our relationship because she had high hopes for him and his ex girlfriend...and also, she doesnt think good things of English girls at all.

I´m Dutch and I´ve only introduced a guy when I had serious plans with him, and marriage was a very likely future for us It´s not just a Turkish thing In my experience I haven´t seen Turkish guys introducing girls that they were not very very VERY serieus about to their parents. Every time I saw a girl being introduced, an engagement soon followed.

And why do the mixed relationships fail... Well, most relationships between Turkish and foreign people nowadays aren´t really relationships I don´t call going out for two weeks in a total state of alcohol daze, and then arguing on msn a relationship. And for the others, often people meet in strange situations, like on a holiday, when life is really different. When everything is back to reality, a relationship isn´t so easy anymore and the hard work it takes to make a mixed relationship works makes many give up.

Maybe he is asking their opinions about them?

Ok here is my take on the matter, long and lots of bs. so bear with me:

Arranged marriages were nearly %100 until recent times and they are still very common. In an arranged marriage your mother (or another elder woman relative such as aunt, or a matchmaker) picks a girl that she thinks is suitable for you. As you can see there is definitely an opinion here. So introducing may mean "here mom how is this one?" for some maybe. Especially if he is being pressured into marrying. If you are 25 and single you will start feeling the pressure build up. Your parents will try to arouse pity telling they have one foot in the grave and how they want to hug their grandchildren before they pass away. Not only relatives but even your streets grocer will jokingly ask you when you are gonna marry. Not mentioning the troubles of daily life such as finding accomodation/renting house if you are single etc.

Aside from that, there are also a lot of conservative/rural people who end up marrying the first person of the opposite sex that they date. One such example is my family. Dating people until you find somebody that you connect with etc. is rare thing in Turkey. So; as a result a boy might be on the look for a girl instead of being on the look for love. (Kız bul evlen ) As asserting if you are a girl doesn´t really take much time compared to asserting if you are in love/connecting, he might even take you to his family in the first day if you are willing.

I think a lot of Turkish males would have no problem marrying a nice girl they meet immediately out of the blue. As we say "nikahta keramet vardır"

 That´s so funny and SO TRUE  Pfff...How many times I heard "I want to see my grandchildren before I die!" coming out of the mouth of a VERY HEALTHY woman.... like she was going to die tomorrow  And it´s always nice when you´re excited about your study or your job and all people ask about is "when are you getting married" and after that "when are the babies coming?"...freaking everybody!!!

the other post ab divorce: answer was that divorce is rare thing in Turkey.

so most of pre-arranged marriages are happy?

turkish people fall in love with spouse no matter in what way found?

it looks like it does not matter whom to marry, but just marry?

It does seem to be that way. The actual state of marriage is held in high esteem.  Rather than looking to "fall in love" and maybe get married, the process is to find a compatable mate and work on being loveable......or working to inspire love in one´s mate.

...don´t ask questions about the "cheating" rate in Turkey

That depends on your definition of happiness. If you´re a man looking for a cook and mother of your children or a woman looking for somebody to provide for you, arranged marriages seem an option. Of course sometimes people learn to love their spouse but often it´s just a settlement. The fact that people don´t divorce doesn´t mean they´re happy, it just means they accept their marriage and the rules on which it functions. If your husband is cheating on you but you believe your mother telling you that´s the male nature and you should forgive him because you´re a woman and have to think about your children, you won´t divorce. Are you happy? Hmmm

Definitely divorced do happen in Turkey, and it´s not always the husband who files for it. I´ve heard about women filing for divorce. I don´t think it´s taboo anylonger

do you know the rate of wives cheating husbands?

 Well said

no, not really. Among my Turkish friends it was only the guys who cheated, never the gals - but I´m talking about my group of friends, not about objective statistics

Good Lord Daydreamer, is that all you think it´s about? Doesn´t it occour to you the compatability of the whole group is an issue?  You paint such a dreary picture.  Just how many arranged marriages are you familiar with? In these type societies the health of the whole family unit is of primary importance.  People choose mates that complete, rather than compete with the whole family.

In your "Western" ideals it´s just the couple with their "love" in the world.  Maybe there are children, maybe not. 

"No man is an island"....but some seem to think so.  If that´s what you want, fine, but I don´t see any reason to cast negativity on other options you don´t understand.

Alameda, we´ve been through it so many times. What is there not to understand? After all arranged marriages are not unique to Muslim or Turkish traditions. I just don´t accept putting the benefit of a society over my own in this case. I believe society can function properly even if people make their own choices and mistakes.

The idea that western societies are only about love is not 100% true. For some it´s the same aliş-veriş like in the marriages you praise so much, the difference is that it´s the couple that make a choice not an older person (ie parents).

And I´m sorry but why shouldn´t I express my opinion about a topic discussed? especialy if it´s something that I believe is more favourable to one gender and pushes the other into the position of submissivenes. Sure, generations will continue with husbands free to do what they please and wives waiting for them at home anyway, bringing up the children and having no means or social acceptance to stop abusive relationships. And on the outside it´ll look grand. If you´re ok with that - fine by me, it´s not my business whom, how and why you want to marry.

I´d like to emphasise one more time that being in an arranged marriage doesn´t grant unhappiness. There are people who are really fulfilled (both men and women). At the same time, marrying out of love doesn´t grant happiness either. What I simply wanted to draw attention to is the fact that arranged marriages are more likely ones in which women´s position is lower or, if you prefer, women are more prone to be abused.

Daydreamer, please don´t attribute words or thought to me that I have not expressed myself. 

I said family, not society.....who said anyone should be abused?...not I for sure.  Never ever should anyone abuse another, particularly one´s spouse. Spousal abuse has nothing to do with arranged marriage....abuse is abuse....and it happens everywhere.

off topic: I miss using html codes for multiquotes

back on track:

The way I understood you, benefits of the family outrate benefits of individual. Right? So, it can be interpreted like: it doesn´t matter if you are happy in your marriage as long as you see to all the duties you agreed to, be it cooking or earning money.

I didn´t say abuse is necessary, I simply stated that in old-fashioned families or in arranged marriages abuse is more likely to happen as the chances are it´ll go unpunished (by divorce for example). I objected to your estimating the happiness of marriage by referring to the small number of divorces. We´ve already discussed that and i´m afraid we´ll have to agree to differ here, I still abide by the thought that "not getting a divorce doesn´t mean you´re happy."

btw, I agree nobody should abuse anyone. Too bad there´s a huge difference between what things should be like and what they are

OK here goes again:

First of all I see some people are viewing this issue through "European" glasses which actually makes them blind, you can not have an objective discussion if you are so dogmatically convinced you have achieved higher moral standards.

There isn´t empirical data that shows arranged marriages are worse than so called love marriages, social and psycologic stuff don´t work like physics. And on the contrary one would see lower divorce rates for arranged marriages anyway. Of course that is a result of social structure however what I am trying to say is please get off your high horses and stop acting like you are the judicator of a universal truth.

Women being suppressed doesn´t have much to do with the marriage being arranged or not. Oppression of women is about education, wealth, social status etc. rather than how those two people got married.

And finally this is why arranged marriages worked beautifully in the past: "Nikahta keramet vardır". Means there is wonders in marriage. People were married off at an early age. They would be virgins, both physically and mentally. Thus they would be very speacial for each other. Add the fact that agricultural lifestyle needs man and woman work side by side they would become friends, coworkers etc. Add the experience of raising children together, rather than dumping them in some daycare center.

When I look at my elderly relatives, I see purity, and a lifelong companionship which people lack nowadays. I don´t want so called European values seep into the minds of my people and poision them, turning them into Dudu seeking empty shells at the age of 40.

That is absurd.  What is being happy? Some people are never happy as their expectations are unreasonable and unrealistic.  They are always looking to other fields, or greener pastures.  Very few are able to appreciate the gifts they already have. How many ever savor the moment, pass beautiful fragrant roses by and never realize they have passed a truly ecstatic etherial moment? 

Of course one should honor their committments.....isn´t that why you make them?  You seem to have such a gloomy view of things. How about thinking promise, vow, committment...expressing love to another instead of performing a duty.  I guess you see cooking as something horrible?  Some consider it an art form.

You have arranged marriages and you have arranged marriages

One of my friends (she is not Turkish) is a highly educated woman, who has chosen for an arranged marriage. She is very very happy! But the important thing here is that in the end, it was her choice. A men came to ask for her hand, and her parents thought he was a good men, so they let him meet their daughter. My friend didn´t say yes right away, but asked for a month to overthink this. At the end, she said yes.

I think the parents being a sort of "filter" for marriage candidates can work well for some people. But the key is that in the end, it has to be the choices of the two people getting married. There should be no presure to say yes, but a well-educated choice by the bride and groom. Chosing a girl just becomes mommy says you should isn´t the best basis for a marriage. Chosing a girl because your parents like her, have investigated her, and on paper her personality and her wishes and dreams match yours, might be a very good basis. A better basis then hormones

What was said before, about marriage, happiness, and education, etc. is a valid point in my opinion.

i dont think it is connected to European glasses. In fact Turkey is not exception in the world in this matter. We probably may exclude USA due to its history.

Though, it seems that family in Turkey puts more pressure on people´s choice than being advisor, consultant.

Love puts blinders on our eyes and maybe in arranged marriages have more chances to survive, being happy. At last friendship lasts longer than love.

It is not about agricultural culture anymore. Of course, woman (pregnant and with many children) cannot survive in agricultural world. Though, since that it became easier, condoms and other means were invented.

Family´s role will evolve dependless on whether we want it or not, because world is changing. Nature won´t carry unneeded things. Virgin girls and boy are not the same today as our grand-grand-parents were at the same age. We cannot get the same result with different input data.

Educated people tend to being having psycho problems more because the simpler system is, less problems it has (man is included). Can we prevent people from education? no. comparing to previous centuries people are more educated and more clever. we are changing, though individuals are changing faster than any social system. that is why we feel the gap between needs and requirements of human being and response of social structures about us. though it will change, and we can just hope that for better.

we already are on the way for being more humane and kind. and can we call it "love" when family refuse to accept the child because of some rules, background of which died hundreds of years ago?

It is not about accepting anger of the moment for enough reason to divorce. it is about supporting - family is given to protect and support and love. Who could love us more than parents? maybe only just our children if we bring them up well.

My aunt is against of divorce of her daughter even though her son-in-law is rare to sleep home, does not earn money etc. And people from conservative rural area took their daughter back with child when it became too obvious that she wont be happy with husband who left and lived with another woman.

it is about to see human being in every situation. what could be more precious than it? being happy and make other happy, because poor cannot feed others who need.

and again - it is not about higher standards. At last not all here are from Europe.

theory of probability advises us that at least some of such men should cheat with married women... Maybe you just dont know everything about your friends?

Could be Like I said - that´s what I observed. Much to my dislike I´m not omnipotent

 I truelly agree with what you have written, especially the fact that rest of the world´s customes, cultures and other civilization habits are being judged through european eyes. I come from South Africa, where women and men have different statuses and marriage all together is seen differently and is valued differently than in the western culture, but for some odd reason we get labelled that our traditions are "babaric" or "uncivilized"... but the question is "according to who are they uncivilized? Because I also look at my great elders and they have been married since they were very young and still are. Unlike the western worlds where people are changing their partners every 5 seconds and divorcing as if it is going out of fashion.

I don´t think it is a problem merely the eastern world is facing, but rather every world that is non-european.

A great experience I have here in many debates is the dowry. Now, in my African culture it is A MUST that the man must give dowry out of respect for the woman´s family and also ties the two families together. However, people on high-horses say "why are the women being bought for cows??" . I see it as,  if the man did not respect that woman, he would just marry her with no proper concent, respect and introduction to her family.  I know I am going off the topic a little  bit, but my point is that people should really stop with judging other cultures, because your judgement will ALWAYS be biast.  A women who has gotten dowry and has a different cultural marriage has nothing to do with her social status, her education nor the strength of her mind.

So what if you are in an arrangement marriage? So what if you choose your own partner?

It doesn´t make your marriage more significant than the other. Yes, it is different and yes it is a foreign concept for your european brain, but it does not make it any less loving, faithful, caring, compassionate and most of all superior than any other marriage.

That is all I have to say,  I completely agree with Yersu, totally

Hi can anyone help, me and my turkish man have been together for 5 months now and i have been back to visit him, we chat everyday on the phone...(me paying fo it) he works in the travel and tourism he has a business, things are tough through the winter and in the last month he has asked me to send him money, no sob stories. the thing is he knows i dont have any money to send so i dont understand why he keeps asking for my help. we have got through all the Do you want a visa stuff and do you have another gf/wife. He is such a nice guy, but the problem is trust with me and i have been married to a british guy that alawys wanted money and i told myself not again!! i do love him and care for him, i am even thinking in a couple of years moving to turkey as i love the country so much and the culture. anyone got any advice! is it genuine that he just needs to live through the winter months. I am due to go back in May and he knows that i need the money for my flight out to be with him and knows if i send him money i wont get to be with him. i have even asked him to marry me!!! Please help. I am also trying to learn the lovely turkish langauge and struggling quite a bit anyone patent enough to help a english person learn. xx

Seriously, I would say don`t send him any money.

Ok, do you think he is genuine. i gave him some money while i was out there and he knows that i have hard times here. Im stuck on what to do for the best as i dont want him to starve but i dont want him to keep thinking i will help. he has offered to pay me back.

Hi, the problem is we don´t know the guy, whether he is a good person or not. But the thing we know is ALL the women that were conned thought their man was a genuine, loving, sweet person. My answer would be no, don´t send money.

I am calling all Dudu veterans to the topic!

Unfortunately most long term users on this site have often seen close relationships here sour over the years. A majority have been where a girlfriend has been used for visa/money/and ´other´ arrangements.

Good luck to you, if he´s genuine he will survive somehow and look forward to when you join him. Having financial problems will test any relationship, but pressuring you for money is definitely not a good sign for your future in my opinion. The offer to pay back loaned money is great to hear, but so often not what eventuates when the relationship ends. If I sound negative it is only because I have read so many sad stories here of women who were used. Of course there are exceptions, but let anyone who has loaned money and also had a successful relationship send a private message to you.

I wish you success in learning Turkish.  

Like earlier posts pointed out we don´t know this guy but my question would be ´how did he survive previous winters´.  In the tourist business all winters are very hard year after year.  I know if I was in his situation and I asked someone very close to me to lend me money but they said they couldn´t help I certainly wouldn´t keep asking...if he knows you well enough then he should trust that if you could you would.

Hope this doesn´t sound harsh

Thank you guys, well he has said sorry for asking and if he had known how i felt he would not of asked he didnt quiet know what i was going through here in the UK, he has survived before as the business was good previous years and had enough saved, unfortunatly the down turn of the climate has not helped and putting money into the business this year has drained him of winter savings!!! i know how he feels as i am going through the same stuff myself and i have had the toughiset year financially.

Now getting back to learning turkish i am having problems with the way you pronounce certain letters or words and would be great too be able to speak to someone that can hold a conversation with me so that i can learn easier, i have tried phrase books and CD´s but with no joy at retaining the sentances, so thats why i signed up to this site also to meet other people that love turkey.

Does anyone also know a good transfer company that i can get a cheap cab from anytala airport to the resort.

Sorry to add to the ´anti´ comments but after Yersu´s comment this lady´s story

(http://www.turkishclass.com/userMessages_astry1_1

sprang to mind - she was so adamant he was different when she started posting but - unfortunately for her - as time went on things changed for the worse

 First, my husband is Turkish....he would rather suffer (die!) than ask a woman to help him!  Second, Turkish people have very strong family ties.  I doubt he will be out on the street if he has no money.  Third, you said he keeps asking you for money and you keep saying no...which means he doesn´t believe you don´t have any and will keep asking until he wears you down.  It looks to me like he would rather have your money than a visit from you....Sorry to say it, but you have yourself a professional dudu.

*Dr. House mode is switched ON*

 You shouldn´t send him money, if he is so insistent, I think he just wants your money, I hate to break it out to you but NO the world is not filled with lovely guys, and Antalya is known for attracting both guys and girls of...questionable morals...so I certainly doubt he wants to spend time longing for his UK girlfriend while he can fool around with tourists who are so willing to try exotic tastes.

Also, is he struggling to improve his English? or are you the only one making the effort to learn Turkish while he doesn´t give a rat´s behind...I suspect the latter.

Seriously, don´t waste your time longing for someone so far away, most often it won´t be worth the effort, and a resort worker from Antalya is as suspicious as someone from the crook ethnic stereotype of your preference selling you some stocks that are guaranteed to explode, or a Nigerian former minister asking for your help to squirrel out some billions from his bank account via email.

In short, don´t send him money and forget about him, it will do you good.

Good call LIR....some of the stories I read here are truly heartbreaking.....and those women really trusted the guys.  I´m sad to say, I´ve seen some of these type things in real life myself. 

If he knows her sending him money means she won´t have the funds to visit....it´s a pretty bad sign.....  What investment in the relationship has he made? 

What about your age ? and his age ? 

Now now....age doesn´t matter....I have seen exploitive relationships where the exploited was a beautiful young virgin.....as a matter of fact there was at least one here. We have truly seen some horror stories.  A few had children....the guy didn´t seem give a damn....and the woman didn´t seem to care much either...so go figure?

Those who will exploit others, with little regard for their well being, will do it no matter what.  What is the saying.....buyer beware....or some such.

What does she actually know about him, what sort of investment in the relationship does he have?  I have noticed Turks are very concerned about their honor, is his public  honor on the line....IOW does his family and those he truly cares about know about this situation?

5 months is not enough to send money, no matter how bad his situation is... Would you give money to a guy you had know for that short a time in your home-country? I think not...

Second to that, yes, the situation is difficult in the winter. That´s why HE has to save in the summer... It makes sense, and he should have thought about this before. Also, most of the guys I know who work in the tourist industry have some bad paying jobs for the winter. Not enough to buy clothes and such, but just enough to pay the bills. They all get through the winter by saving in the summer, working hard in the winter, and not asking some lady they hardly know for winter...at least the GOOD guys I know don´t ask anybody for money.

Does not having a sob-story make it okay to send money? I wouldn´t go visit him either... I don´t trust anybody who asks me for money after 5 months...doesn´t matter what story they have, doesn´t matter how much money I have. I had longer relationships with a plant then that. Anyway, that´s just my own feeling about it though.

if you are ready to pay certain amount to know the truth - go on. probably, you wont be able to visit him, but every thing has it cost. it is better t stay at least in your home country and discover person, than to be in his country and find out true nature of the man.

i have couple of Turkish friends. one refused even share cost of restaurant with me. the other - to take money even though I knew he needed and he would pay me back. After many years. it was smth that his honour could not let him to do.

money is sensitive subject. you may object all people who wrote you replies (meaning of which is the same btw), but at least keep your eyes open, head - turned on, and close your heart a bit.

Thank you for all your views, however i didnt write the full facts yestursday as they are personal to him and me, and due to circumstances which is down to the turkish goverment,  he has his own business and i am fully aware of his circumstances and the thing is he wants me to visit him more than send him money. We nearly split up over it and not his choice mine, and there was no him trying to convince me to stay with him,  Yes i have read stories about good and bad relationships and i have had my fair few of bad. He didnt know how bad my circumstances were and his english is better than mine!!! and i am british born and bred! I take on board all comments, and to begin with i didnt trust him and he knows that, he knows that i know all the bad things that are said about Turkish Guys, but truely here where i live they are just as bad or even worst, I was married to an english guy that basically all he did was freeload off not just me his parents and friends. So i am totally got my eyes open. And he wont be asking again!!!!I dont live in a dream world i go by fact and i will ask questions until i am satified with the truth, i made him feel a complete idiot and he was very embarressed by the whole thing, i am a very strong minded soul, yes it is early days and i still keep my wits about me and it may not end up with a fairtale ending, but these days nothing does, i wont be fooled into anything if i have doubts i question.

Thanks again for all your views and support

Oh and as for age that does not matter we are the same age.

I have heard only about Turkish male - foreign woman couples, but the opposite is very rare. Maybe Christian guys are afraid of having a relationship with Turkish girls...

 Our friend Loveprague is married with a turkish woman.

Platschu, I can see 2 reasons for that:

1)If that person or her family is religious Muslims, Islam prohibits Muslim women marrying with non-Muslim husbands. But Muslim men can marry non muslim women.

2)The upbringing. You won´t see as many Turkish girls in bars, cafes etc. because of the conservative upbringing, even talking to foreign men may be regarded shameful. So foreign men will hardly have a possibilty to meet Turkish girls unless coworkers etc.

 WHAT?! How dare you say Turkish girls... what you mean is that it is shameful for Kurdish girls to simply talk to a foreign man.

Dear barba_mama. I see that you have not understood me even a tiny bit; I am not trying to blame Kurds for everything that goes wrong in Turkey. For example there are many bad traditions that live amongst Turks as well, such as first cousin marriages. I would not deny this, because this is the truth. What I have told about honor killings is also the truth. I don´t know how I can convince you that I am not trying to defame a certain group but simply telling the truth.

definetly a bad tradition. where does it come from? we live in 21st century.

 Define "we"!!!

that sounded like lemon and Yersu

europe

Well i have only one question to you... yes just 1...

Have you ever visited Istanbul or Izmir in your lifetime?  

I could experience that Turkish, Syrian, Arabian or Persian men work here. They have bronze skin, maybe they are good looking. The Hungarian ladies like mediterran partners, but I must tell you our media doesn´t show good picture about you at all. I could find some couple who live happily together in Hungary and in Turkey too. Very few percentage of ladies can accept Muslim partners, because they are influenced negatively (like terrorist attacks, old traditions or  "Not without my daughter" type movies).  There were really some cases where the couple couldn´t decide where their common child must stay after the divorce... But I could chat some of them, who have Turkish or Persian male partner and they told me they are sensitive, clean, honest men and they are better than even the locals guys. But there were such examples too, that her husband seemed to be a very modern thinking guy, but as soon as they visited his relatives he returned to the old attitude (for example they began to hit theirs wives or to humliate them).

And these are warning signs for every Christian guys too. Although Turkish ladies are pretty and they are exotic like a forbidden fruit, but some cultural differences can not be bridged. I could hear that Turkish people follow the "lighter" version of Islam faith, but some basic rules are kept anyway. For example non-Muslim guys must accept circumcision, which is one of the greatest final test before marriage, but I doubt he will be a "real" Muslim in his heart even if he accepts this physical requirement from the family of his love...

I could have found such reasons toom that a local Turkish woman won´t speak with foreign  men. But how would that Turkish woman react in a Western country? Would they flirt there if they are not controlled by relatives, laws and traditions? And what is more important? Religion or personal happiness? Must we combine or separete these in our life?

Unfortunately, many Muslim families including my own enforce the rules of the religion from early childhood. You get circumcised regardless of what your faith will be in the future. Having said that it is not as horrible as it seems. I get by with the understanding that getting circumcised can in fact be healthier. At least, this is what we are being told.

You should know that Turkey has a very big population comprising many ethnic groups, cultures, beliefs, life styles etc. So, unlike those countries like Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Poland etc where people tend to be unicultural and uniracial, Turkish people is a complex mixture of all sorts including sharp contrasts and contradictions. That means you can find all sorts of people. As I am writing these lines, hundreds of thousands of people are having one night stands, millions of them are going to a mosque, some are committing honor killings and some are drinking their lives away. Some of these people call themselves muslims and some do not. It is a natural result of being a big and diversified country. I just wanted to highlight the difference between a small and homogenious country and a big one.

To all of you who are thinking about a relationship, marriage etc with turkish/kurdish men.  Please be aware that a visa may be important for them and they may even want to marry.  However, so many end the marriages or leave because they say it doesn´t work out.  I believe it is more to do with the male not working hard enough in most relationships I have heard of.  I know good women who have been in this position.  Its better to get all the facts.  Alot of women give money  etc to Turkish/Kurdish men in good faith.  Don´t be fooled that it is for what they actually say it is for and if it is they should work for it like most of us in the world have to!!

Ask as many questions as you think you need to about them.  If they can´t tell their families about you then they surely must have somehing to hide.  This note is not meant to offend.  I believe love is great but with love also come blindness at times.

Michael007: But not every man is fortune hunter... There must be some Turkish guys, who don´t love only for your money or your visa.

Vineyards: I have spoken about the general picture about a Muslim-Christian mixed couple or marriage in a Christian community. So local guys like "exotic" girls, but I doubt they will ever marry them because of the culture and different religion... But nothing can be only black or white, so it depends on the two people and how can they give up some expectations.  

You are right!!  I don´t believe every Turkish/Kurdish or men in general are fortune hunters.  I just want to let those that may be getting into something serious with eastern men know that the men ´may´ be misleading them.  I have felt sad and sorry for some women that have been taken in by those that have only been looking for a visa then after so many years give up the marriage and then get a Turkish/Kurdish wife. It is not honest and no matter how poor or difficult their lives back home maybe; women get hurt.  Also alot of Eastern cultures put western women down.  I have to say that some eastern men have little respect for the women, but happily sleep with them and ask openly for gifts and more.  Foolish the women maybe for giving it I know, but they usually genuinely like the guy.  I have Kurdish and Turkish friends.  I like them, but I am all to aware of how some of them operate.  Culture and religion will always be a barrier in the world; it does not have to separate us completely.  We can learn alot from each other´s cultures and traditions.  As far as religion goes no man or woman can make someone believe.  We have to choose one way or the other ourselves!! God does not separate us or see our religion.  He see´s our hearts and knows us well; whether we believe it or not.

Thanks for you response.  Its good to debate

It wasn´t a debate. I have told my experiences. I visit sometimes "the friends of Turkey" forum on a Hungarian blog, but there are almost only Hungarian women who talks about their Turkish / Arabian boyfriend or husband. I could find positive and negative opinions of course, but there were very few non-Turkish male - Turkish woman couple. So this was the reason why I asked whether the prevalence is similar in Turkey too?

I have enjoyed reading about your experiences.  I like the fact that you share REAL life experience!  I hope that those reading these kind of forums are enlightened by what they read.

Tessekur ederim ve kendine iyi bak. Hoscakal

 I work in a university in Izmir, and we have tons of mixed marriages, but the overwhelming majority of them are Turkish man-foreign woman, I know only 3 cases of foreign men married to a Turkish woman, and one is getting a divorce,hahaha.

DON´T DO IT!! 

Best advice there is: don´t send money (or cell phones, laptops etc.)

 Maybe Turkish girls are not beautiful and understanding enough for both Turkish and foreign boys?

Or maybe Turkish girls are much more logical and clever than Turkish boys?

Or maybe Turkish girls all are after love when some Turkish boys after money?

Will I be crucified for asking these questions?

 +1

I met my friend on a social network last year, and since then have taken our conversations to msn. We talk anywhere from 4-12 hours daily, depending on the time zone. I´m finally going to Turkey and he´s meeting me at the airport, taking a 5 hour train to get there. We will spend three days in Ankara. After that we will go stay with his elder brother and new wife for one week, and then home to meet his parents and other relatives.  At the beginning of our special friendship we spoke of love, and I admit that I do love him very much. Now he says we are "two good friends". Is it customary for "two good friends" to stay with his elder brother and new wife, and then home to the parents? I´m so confused. And does the one good friend always ask "where are you?" "what are you doing?" "Are you home?" "When will you be home?" I thought those kinds of questions in a Turkish guy were reserved for more intimate relationships.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but the situation does not sound promising..

When did he start to say you are "two good friends"? Before making all those arrangements -meeting his parents specially- or after? Something does not sound right ..

After. He did tell a mutual male friend that his parents and brother knew he loved me. Why the discrepancy I don´t know.

Alarm bells are ringing. It is highly unusual for a normal friend to stay with somebody´s family like that. I don´t think you´ll be introduced as "my foreign friend" but as "my foreign fiancé."

@ barba_mama- You could be right. I am also a Muslim girl, and in my background it is not customary to stay with the family of a friend of the opposite sex unless marriage is contemplated. I just did not know if it was any different in Turkey. My family is pretty modern, but even so, if I brought over a male friend who was traveling a long distance to visit only me, eyebrows would indeed be raised. However, his parents are anxious to meet me, as well as his brothers. He is, after all, my best friend.

What a lovely topic.  I have never never seen anything like this discussed on this site before.  Well done..... 

(Could not find a yawn smiley)

 Hibernation is over.....

and yes, it is quite a surprising topic - new one on me

I love dudus - especially in an economic recession.  I might feel driven to write a limerick about them soon

T- E what does this mean? Onda isim ciktiydi okadar yazdim. Sadece nezle olmusun

thankyou!

 Oim quivering with anticipation

 Please post this in the translation forum.  thanks

I FINALLY realised something.. either:-

1. You live in an Amish community
2. You SHOULD live in an Amish community 

Karma karma chameleon

You come and go,

You come and go.

Welcome back again...

Do you really want to hurt me? Do you really want to make me cry?

Hi Vinny! x

All I can say about Turkish boyfriends is that they do not really know what they want ... they change their mind all the time and they leave without a word.... but they always come back after a while,  either to tell you they want you back  or to tell you they would like you two to be at least "just friends"  as they don´t like to know that someone is upset on them( maybe it´s something related to their religion beliefs?? ). At least this is what happened to me and to some of my friends

Alameda - the States must be so backwards. It´s been a while since I was a teenager but my parents never raised an eyebrow when they met one of my many male friends. And even though some of these friends would stay for the night (not in my bedroom, mind you!) my folks were never suspicious of anything. I don´t know about States but in Poland people have friends of different genders and hang out with them both at home and out of it...

Relationships are never easy, especially when the culture is different and you feel like you are playing a game whose rules you do not know.  Chances are that until you have been met by his family he cannot make up his mind what he really wants.  A lot of Turkish men care for their families deeply, and their unspoken approval is important.  Also it seems he is trying to do things properly rather than just taking you to the nearest hotel for a quickie. 

  It is the best thing if you stay with the relatives, because it means he is an honest man, and he is trying to do things right. it gives both of you the chance to bow out gracefully in case it should not work out.  

Conversations on msn, no matter how intense, are no substitute for a personal meeting and you need to go through the beginnings of courtship slowly and carefully.  He understands that.  I respect him for it. i wish you all the best.

It´s not backward to have raised eyebrows When I introduce a male friend to my family, I have to state explicity that he is just a friend, or they will assume otherwise.

haha! sounds to me like your family are desperate to marry you off! 

How sexist... marry me "off"?

 Why do you find this sexist ? sons can also be married off

doğru

In that case it´s just generally degrading Pfff...marrying somebody of, like you want to get rid of them, like a nasty cold. As if a person isn´t anything on their own.

Well, it´s nice to see you have remembered me too, and deemed it worth commenting on my post.

Do you have a problem with the Amish? Actually, I admire the Amish.....they walk the walk.

Anyway, welcome back Aenigma.....

You are probably correct. This is just what I have noticed.

wait! isn`t that so backwards? I love this attitude of "I show more flesh and I have more sex so I`m moderner than thou"

Edited (9/12/2010) by Arafta

Maybe you didn´t hear it before but it´s a perfectly legitimate English espression and not sexist at all.

Quoting Arafta

wait! isn`t that so backwards? I love this attitude of "I show more flesh and I have more sex so I`m moderner than thou"

Where did I say anything about having sex? I meant that a woman may have male friends and not be romantically involved with them. And the fact that you have male friends doesn´t mean you have to marry them or sleep with them.

I consider it backwards to think that if you introduce a friend of the opposite sex to your family, it must mean you are planning marriage.

If I introduce a friend of the opposite sex in my family, I´ll have to say that he´s a friend, otherwise they´ll just assume otherwise. This is not backward. It´s just because I don´t hang out with my friends at grandma´s place! So if she meets one of my friends, that friend must be very very special. And it is a normal assumption that if I only introduce one male guy friend to my family (I mean extended family, not just my parents) they can think he is a love interest.

When a male friend is introduced to my siblings and parents, no assumptions are made. But the girl one here talked about an uncle. Don´t tell me that all of your friends meet your aunts and uncles.

Well, BM, I think it should have been made clear from the start whom we mean saying family. My grandma met a few male friends of mine if we happened to run into her in the street or if I went to her and had a friend with me because later we were going somewhere. It was pretty normal.I was just brought up in such a manner that you introduce people who are with you when you meet somebody from your family. And it doesn´t mean you´re getting married.

As for proper (official) introductions, I´ve never done that. Even though I´ve been married for 9.5 years I still haven´t met most of my husband´s family and he hasn´t met a huge part of mine. We´ve decided it would be weird to have a tour of the family. We know the ones we see (or used to see) quite often and it suits me just fine.

I don´t have to say we didn´t ask for blessings or permission when we decided to get married, do I?

 We will be staying for one week with his uncle and aunt, a 4 hour trip by train from my point of arrival, and then we will take a 9 hour train ride to meet his parents and stay 4 days with them before taking a 5 hour ride to my point of departure. A lot of time spent on wheels

We weren´t talking about running into somebody. It was about especially going to somebody and visiting them. My partner met all my uncles and aunts at a family party. You don´t normally bring your friends to family parties (like a wedding, aniversy, etc.) so if you would bring "just a friend" there you would say, in my case "this is my friend Soandso" and not "this is Soandso"... the latter would make my family think he´s my love interest. I don´t appreciate my family being called backwards for that assumption.

Backwards is the assumption that if you introduce somebody to your family, it must mean you´re more than friends. The girl clearly writes here that they´ll spend some time at his uncle´s and then go to his house. Is it only your fiancee that can stay at your uncle´s? Have you ever been on a holiday with a male friend? I have and when we were near a city where my family lives we´d visit them.

It´s ridiculous of you to take offence at what I say. If having a friend around means your family thinks you´re getting married, it does sound backwards to me. If you don´t consider it backwards - that´s your opinion. You know, some people consider arranging marriages for 12 year olds not backwards. I just disagree. To each their own

And stop coming up with situational rules. First it was meeting the parents, then uncles and aunts, then meeting them in a situation different than accidental and, finally, going to family celebrations. I wasn´t aware it is considered inappropriate to bring a friend to a wedding in the Netherlands. A friend you don´t sleep with, that is. Or, shall we now exclude weddings from the list of family celebrations only bfs can go to?

You know what, I think you totally agree with me, you just got so far in denial that you feel like you have to persevere in a pointless discussion although you´re losing legs to stand on 

you didn`t say anything about sex and I wasn`t exactly referring to the content of your post, but the general mentality. you seem to call anything unlike your culture backwards anyway.

and what´s my culture exactly? I wouldn´t call Poland a very modern country in many aspects, like the attitude to homosexuality, race or religion. And there are lots of stereotypes present there that should be changed. So, no. I don´t consider my home country´s culture modern and progressive.

True, it´s way better than the culture in countries where people who change their religion get killed, women get stonned for petty reasons or where men have more legal rights than women.

Besides, I´m backwards in some of my believes as well.

I didn`t know where you are from and in this case I don`t think it`s relevant anyway. I also don`t get what my post has to do with those killed for their religion but I completely agree with you. Here are some examples of those horrible atrocities; women burnt alive in Kenya for "witchcraft" http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dae_1236854361 cab driver gets stabbed for being muslim in America; http://unionreview.com/ny-cab-driver-stabbed-being-muslim woman gets stabbed to death for being muslim in germany; http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

I agree, possibly DD was testing something i guess

I would definitely not call Kenya a developed modern country so I absolutely agree it´s an example of backwards mentality. The acts of violence in the US or Germany have nothing to do with these countries being backwards or modern - these actions are crimes against the law and perpetrators will or have been judged and sentenced. I was referring to countries whose legal systems promote backwards ideas like "men are allowed more because of their gender or where people are prosecuted (by law) for converting or where homosexuality is a crime.

Everywhere in the world, in all communities there are people whoare prejudiced and hate other people on any basis possible. But there arent too many countries that pass laws that empower prejudice. And this, in my opinion, should be condemned.

I don´t understand why for you the word "modern" is instantly associated with nudity and sex. It has nothing to do with it. Would it be more modern to sentence people to death for enjoying their sexuality with other adult people who consent to it?

please don`t try to twist my point. It`s you who is simplifying modernity down to nudity and sex not me. As for Kenya`s being an undeveloped country, should we ignore the oppression against women there because they are not a developed country? Iran is undeveloped too, but you make a big fuss about what`s going on there. why are you so concerned about the women killed in Iran but not those killed in Kenya?

Edited (9/13/2010) by Arafta

Are you sure we read the same posts? because I get the feeling we get different things.

1. Who said anything about sex/nudity first?

.....Arafata!

quote:

"wait! isn`t that so backwards? I love this attitude of "I show more flesh and I have more sex so I`m moderner than thou" "

and again:

"you didn`t say anything about sex and I wasn`t exactly referring to the content of your post, but the general mentality."

I was only saying you can have male friends, you showed up with your sarcastic rremark about nudity being modern

2. Of course we shouldn´t agree oppression of women in Kenya! That´s why I agreed with you. We should condemn things that go on in Kenya, Iran, saudi Arabia, Emirates (hmm they´re not really underdeveloped, are they? ).

I said Kenya´s example is not an example of how a modern country should look like as it is not a modern country by far. Hmm who was it that mentioned Kenya in the context of inequality when I took a stab at The Arabic States of Mysoginy?

.....Arafata!

See? My point is that the ideas that make people believe they´re better than others because they have a penis, are backwards. And living your life according to an old book* that promotes inequality, paedophilia, homophobia and blodshed is backwards

* by book I meant both Bible and Qu´ran

But, what is more backwards, is when countries adapt their legal system to make things easier to only one group on the basis of belief in an imaginary, invisible being. If you can die in a perfectly legal way only because you say that you find it ridiculous - that´s not very funny. It´s backwards and should not occur in 21st century.

But if your idea of what is modern and backwards differs from mine, I´m all ears, I´d love to hear it.

first off all, what is "arafata"? second of all, none of the countries you mentioned are considered to be developed countries. high gdp per capita does not necessarily equal economic development. why did I mention about Kenya? Because Kenya is a christian country and those who kill women there are christians, yet we will never hear that story in the media. I`m just pointing out your hypocrisy. I wish you cared about those christian Kenyan women as much as you cared about the Iranian women. and yes, my idea of what is modern or backwards is far from your bigotted and eurocentric interpretation. Don`t you call those who wear western/christian style clothes "modern" while labeling anyone who doesn`t wear like you "traditional"? This is just an example.

Edited (9/13/2010) by Arafta

You do not have to live in an underdevelopped country to have women killed for their religion or beleifs,  I live in Canada and not long ago a 17 year old girl and her mother was killed by her ex husband and son, it was a honor killing.  So even in so called developped and modern countries there are cruel things going on.  It is not the fact that the country is modern or not it is the way of thinking of certain people.

I had male friends sleep over at my parents house, geez we even slept in the same bed and we did not get married, my family did not even assume I was going to mary him and nothing happenned between us, there just wasn´t enough beds in the house.

hahahhahahahahhahahaha it´s just the same old story over and over again. You just cannot accept that I don´t care what the majority religion is in a country, if it opresses women, I condemn it al the same!

That´s why I said I condemn what goes on in Kenya. Or South Africa for that matter. How come you read it otherwise?

Kenya and SA very very bad -> clear now?

But it doesn´t change the fact that developed, rich Arab countries opress women. They do.

Arab countries very very bad -> clear?

What do you mean by christian clothes? That would be something made of linen and a scarf over the head? well - to me it would sound traditional

Sorry but you´re losing it here.

Modern doesn´t mean you walk naked in the streets or you dress in a code. Nope. It means that your family cannot hit you and a strange guy in the street cannot spit on you  if you don´t put a bag over your head. Whether you choose to wear a turtle-neck or a mini skirt, it´s fine because you´r free to make a choice.

Oh, I still haven´t heard abything about what you consider modern - enlighten me please

*Sorry for the spelling mistake in your name Arafta

Stumpy - sure bad things happen everywhere but in Canada perpetrator will be punished by court order (if they catch him of course) whereas in many Arab countries such case will not even get to court as such action is perceived legal and justified. See the difference?

I´ll explain it again. My family is not backward. They don´t judge me about having male friends. However, if I would bring a male to my uncle, and I would NOT say "this is my friend", they would just assume he is MORE than a friend. They wouldn´t expect me to get married to the guy, and they would´t stone me to death. It is just an assumption, since it´s not usual to hang out with your friends at your uncles house. Yes, I´ve been on holiday with guys who were just friends. We slept in the same room, in different beds. If we would sleep in the same bed, he wouldn´t be "just a friend", would he? I don´t understand why this would make my family backwards? They don´t expect me to get married to every guy I meet, they don´t expect every guy I bring to their home to be marriage material, but they do expect me to say who the guy is that I´m brining to their homes. If I´m not introducing him formally, they would expect me to be to shy to say "I am in LOVE with this guy!"

And by the way, I had a love interest sleep in my house. He slept in a different room out of respect to my parents. I don´t like humping a boyfriend next to my parents bedroom. It was only my (at that point) fiancé who I actually slept in 1 bed with in my parents house. If that respect for my parents also makes me backwards, I must be a cave-woman. So be it.

BM - I don´t get your offended tone. You´re saying exactly teh same thing I did and act as if it was totally different.

You said your family does not assume anythign unless you tell them otherwise and that you´d never "hump" somebody in your parents house. Same here. Why would that make you backwards?

I don´t understand you...

so you are saying criminals get away with their crimes in "most" arab countries? ok tell us in what Arabic countries that happens, and let`s see if those countries really constitute the majority of the Arab countries. btw. as you`re saying Arab countries are bad do you also agree that christian Black/African countries are bad? and modern simply means contemporary, so anything that someone does in the present time is modern.

My family (extended family) will assume that a guy is my love interest, if I don´t introduce him as a "just a friend", so yes, they assume something. Somebody said on here that my family is backward because of this assumption. It´s like people think there are only two ways of living your life. Being a radically free hippy, promoting free love. Or being a strict Muslim family, lokcing up all the women in their homes.

(By the way, it would be rather odd for them to make that assumption now, I´m talking about my earlier years )

ok I`m asking you what countries tolerate the killing of women. 1) Kenya, 2)China, you tell us the rest. yes, girls shouldn`t be killed for "honor reasons" but they also shouldn`t get locked down in a basement and raped by their fathers for decades which is a horrible tradition unique to the christian countries.

Edited (9/13/2010) by Arafta
Edited (9/13/2010) by Arafta

This is not just a christian thing Arafta.  And fathers raping their daughters is not a christian tradition and is not limited to "christian countries".  There are Muslim men, in muslim countries that also rape their own daughters, it is called incest.

In the Gaza Strip, Saudi, Lebanon, Irak, Jordan

A June 2008 report by the Turkish Prime Ministry´s Human Rights Directorate, says that in Istanbul alone, there is one honor killing every week;

A 16-year-old girl had been buried alive by relatives for befriending boys in Southeast Turkey; her corpse was only found 40 days after she went missing.

Non Muslim Countries, Germany, Canada, USA, UK.

Would you like some more?

There was a fantastic a series of articles about honor killings from Roberts Fisk in the independent last week.

In one of them he says:

Iraqi Kurds, Palestinians in Jordan, Pakistan and Turkey appear to be the worst offenders but media freedoms in these countries may over-compensate for the secrecy which surrounds "honour" killings in Egypt ´ which untruthfully claims there are none ´ and other Middle East nations in the Gulf and the Levant. But honour crimes long ago spread to Britain, Belgium, Russia and Canada and many other nations. Security authorities and courts across much of the Middle East have connived in reducing or abrogating prison sentences for the family murder of women, often classifying them as suicides to prevent prosecutions.

It is difficult to remain unemotional at the vast and detailed catalogue of these crimes. How should one react to a man ´ this has happened in both Jordan and Egypt ´ who rapes his own daughter and then, when she becomes pregnant, kills her to save the "honour" of his family? Or the Turkish father and grandfather of a 16-year-old girl, Medine Mehmi, in the province of Adiyaman, who was buried alive beneath a chicken coop in February for "befriending boys"? Her body was found 40 days later, in a sitting position and with her hands tied.

(there was even a case in London recently!!)

.....

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-crimewave-that-shames-the-world-2072201.html (just read and cry really!!)

DD is right to say that in many countries honor killings are being treated more different than the other killings..Those type of crimes are seen justified morally. This moral justification is reflected in many areas in life: Like,  police dont treat the person the way he deserves. In some rural areas, they ignore the evidence; they pretend they did not see or hear anything; judges are more symphatetic etc..

Even in jail they are treated differently and hugely respected if their crime is ´honor killing´.

This is not just a christian thing Arafta. And fathers raping their daughters is not a christian tradition and is not limited to "christian countries". There are Muslim men, in muslim countries that also rape their own daughters, it is called incest.

In the Gaza Strip, Saudi, Lebanon, Irak, Jordan

A June 2008 report by the Turkish Prime Ministry´s Human Rights Directorate, says that in Istanbul alone, there is one honor killing every week;

A 16-year-old girl had been buried alive by relatives for befriending boys in Southeast Turkey; her corpse was only found 40 days after she went missing.

Would you like some more?

Turkey: In Turkey, persons found guilty of this crime are sentenced to life in prison.[76] There are well documented cases, where Turkish courts have sentenced whole families to life imprisonment for an honor killing. The most recent was on January 13, 2009, where a Turkish Court sentenced five members of the same Kurdish family to life imprisonment for the "honour killing" of Naile Erdas, 16, who got pregnant as a result of rape.

source:wikipedia






ahh those bloody Turks oppressing Kurds!

Edited (9/13/2010) by Arafta

just because you avoid the word muslims doesn`t mean you are not referring to them. your fake "political correctness" doesn`t work here.

I guess it is naive to think the world is beautiful.

I guess it is naive to think that everyone can get along.

I guess it is naive to think that there can be a world without war.

I guess it is naive to think that people are not defined by their religion, skin color or gender.

I guess it is naive to think that we can all live together without killing each other.

I guess it is naive to think that children can have a real childhood without being raped, maimed or killed.

Well if it is naive to think all of that I would rather be labelled a naive woman and have people call me a fake and call me every name in the book.  But I know that I have retained one thing from my childhood.  Everyone is a good person and the world is a beautiful place and in my eyes no one is better than the other, there  is no religion creating barriers between people and there is no war.

That is what I am, naive, because there are wars, people die and people kill, religion creates barriers amongs people and the world is ugly.  But I hope to see a little bit of beauty in this world before I die just as I have seen when I was a child.

enough drama already. if you can`t handle an argument you can simply admit that you were wrong. don`t worry I won`t bully you.

you know what Arafta you are not worth it!

If you consider what I wrote drama you have a serious problem.

If people do not agree with you they are fakes.

If they have their own point of views they are racist or what ever.

A bigot call another a bigot, plain and simple.

I have never called someone here a bigot but I guess that`s what you consider yourself to be.

your interpratation not mine

what an argument ender!

why should I waiste my breath on you, you understand what you want you call people what you want so what is the use trying to have a civil conversation with you.  You will only turn it to you way and insult or put down people.  Basicly the traits of a bigot so I do not waiste my time.

A bigot (in modern usage) is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own or intolerant of people of different ethnicity, race, class, sexual orientation or gender.

Oh here we go again... When something bad happens it´s Kurdistan, when something good happens its called Turkey again, and the mountain Turks. Anyway, it´s true that honour killing is something that is linked to many Muslim communities. This doesn´t mean it´s a Muslim tradition, but that it IS a problem in a lot of communities, which Muslims should realize and battle. You can´t fix problems if you deny them. However, that it is just committed in Muslim communities is also not true. I have seen many documentaries on women who were tortured in India, or even killed there because of honour. Not all of them were Muslim. But if the Muslim community just says "it is not me, it wasn´t us, don´t look at me, I´m innocent" nothing will ever change. Yes, people from other religions do bad stuff too, but don´t stick your head in the sand. Honour killing IS a problem, it IS 99% women who are the victims, and it IS mainly done in Muslim communities.

You just proved my point Arafta, you assume everyone is talking about you and then you lash out at them.  It is a shame you think I called you a bigot but if you think I am a bigot I am fine with that.  I know what I am an I do not care what you think of me.

Have a nice day!

it´s true that honour killing is something that is linked to many Kurdish communities in Turkey. This doesn´t mean it´s a Kurdish tradition, but that it IS a problem in a lot of communities, which Kurds should realize and battle. You can´t fix problems if you deny them. However, that it is just committed in Kurdish communities in Turkey is also not true. I have seen many documentaries on women who were tortured in India, or even killed there because of honour. Not all of them were Kurds. But if the Kurdish community just says "it is not me, it wasn´t us, don´t look at me, I´m innocent" nothing will ever change. Yes, people from other ethnicities do bad stuff too, but don´t stick your head in the sand. Honour killing IS a problem, it IS 99% women who are the victims, and it IS mainly done in Kurdish communities in Turkey.

see the argument keeps its validity when you change the word muslims into Kurds in Turkey

and it`s your argument not mine. If someone is being hypocritical it`s again you. Could you tell us why we cant speak out about the Kurdish honor killing problem in Turkey when we know that at least 95% of those crimes in Turkey are carried out by the Kurds?

Sorry, but did my teacher make a mistake during geography classes? We are talking about things that happen within Turkish borders right? With people who have Turkish passports? My map of Turkey doesn´t show "Kurdistan" as a neighboring nation. I guess my map is all wrong, because hearing some of the people speak on here, there is a horrible place called Kurdistan, where no Turkish person EVER comes, where all the crime of the world comes from.

likewise those muslims in the european countries are all european citizens. why do you always point out their ethnicity when a few of the commit crime? you can blame muslims and gypsies but we can`t blame kurds, right?

There were many incest news articles in the papers recently.. Almost one or two every week ; committed by Turks. I wonder if racist Kurds were quoting these articles in their forums to make their case that Turks are not worth living together and labeling all Turks as rapists by saying that  ´all of these shameful crimes are committed by the Turks.. Not us´..

Who knows..

did I miss something?
when did the subject change into incest?
if you want to see what the racist Kurds say about Turks, check out the kurdistan forum or whatever it is.

Taking what Turkish racists say about the Kurds, replace the word ´Kurds´ with ´Turks´ will suffice I think...

As far as the racism is concerned no difference at all..

i agree with you that Kenya is not a modern country.  There are crimes perpetuated in many countries out of ignorance, or false pride.  However, i strongly disagree with you that a ´modern´ country is not prejudiced against women.  It happens there as well, but in more subtle ways.  

For example, in the UK a woman is double as likely to be sentenced for murder than a man, five times as likely to be sentenced to jail for a similar offence than a man.  See, if a man kills someone in a drunken rage-then it is manslaughter, but a woman, being weaker, could not do that.  She needs to plan the deed.  So it is murder.  

I used to befriend Muslim women in jail- they usually were nice young girls who were duped into smuggling drugs for various boyfriends, again for they same offence they received much harsher sentences.....  

So please get off your moral high horse, and accept that injustice is not only a feature of poorer countries, but permeates most societies. There are laws in place in every country that are uphold the rights of women, unfortunately with economic poverty it is often not  possible to enforce these laws.  The problem is enforcement, rather than an absence of the laws. So in the USA  we have an estimated uncaught 500 mass murderers roaming the country, and if they stick to prostitutes, there won´t be an awful lot of effort being made to catch them, in Egypt maybe 500 honour killings... either way it is the women who suffer since they ´deserved´ it.