No one can prove these suspicious deaths were assassinations or not. Only the assessors know that and they never tell the truth. That is why strategic thinking is like completing a 10000 pieces puzzle. You have to know the history, you have to know the political and sociological trends of the societies who are involved in that event. You have to know the political and economical expectations of those societies who are a part of a social event. And most important, one needs acumen and conscience to fulfil the missing points. So if one keeps asking for proofs of social events s/he does not know the structure of the social events or s/he keeps asking for that just to refute the other side’s ideas and dictate his/her own ideas. These ones generally don’t seek the truth and have conscience problems. They mostly have hidden agendas and hidden aims. They don’t talk for the solution of the problem they rather look for supports to their hidden aims. Those people are generally opportunists and every single event is grablable for them to reach their aims. 

So the biggest problem between us and them is that trust problem. I don’t trust that ones who keeps asking for proof wants to be a part of the solution but deepen them and reach their aims.

Coming to PKK terror.  Anyone who don’t blame terrorism, regardless the ethnicity or religion of those terrorist, exactly losed their conscience. Terrorism uses different arguments in different times. Today it can be Kurdish problem, tomorrow Christianity etc. Whatever they provoke, it is just a tool for them to reach their bloody aims. Terrorists never represent an ethnic group or religion. They just use those figures to convince the members of those groups and acquire militants. Such as Al Qaida uses Islamic figures for their bloody aims but they never represent Islam.

So if one wants to be trustable s/he has to blame terrorism and stop trying to justfy it!

PKK terror and Kurdish society’s problems are definitely different issues. Even as a Turkish I have many social problems in Turkey. Such as covered girls still cannot enter the universities although that is their basic human rights. Second examples; thousands of left wingers or right wingers have been killed especially in coup eras. But none of those groups take their guns and run the mountains to use terrorism for the solution of their problems. Problems are not solved in a community in one day. But sooner or later those matters are solved in political process. Terrorism never solves the problems but deepens them. That is why the ones who are fed by problems use terrorism!

Kurdish society also took their negative shares of anti-democratic eras of Turkey. Language bans, identity matters are the main ones. Although it’s provoked and enlarged by terrorists, a lot of Kurdish people are killed because of their ideas. Just like the killed and tortured left wingers and right wingers. We judge coup soldiers because of those anti democratic actions.

At that point foreign secret services involvement on the problem comes out. Secret services are always opportunists and they have no ethics at all. Whatever is profitable for them, can be used. So in order the anti democratic acts create a discomfort in the society, the secret services use that as a potential to create a real chaos. They use all kinds of disinformation to reach their aim. That is why you can see many people who repeat those secret services disinformation as the facts. Thehandsome in that forum does that a lot.  Such as so called burned villages lie is the main ones of those. Even in the most antidemocratic eras none of Turkish Governments grated innocent groups.  Those disinformation are just made to deepen the problem and widen the opportunities of creating possible militants and sympathisers. 

But why mainly Israel and USA and also European and different secret services support terrorism? The sources of the west are decreasing. The power balance is shifting from west to east. That is why USA’s policy is to locate in the east. That is the main reason of Greater Middle East Project. We must also bear in our minds of Israel’s extreme religious policies and their effect power in USA’s policies. Turkey plays a significant role in that region and an important regional player. So Turkey has roles on that plan. If Turkey plays the role that Israel and US wants, terrorism decreases and if Turkey don’t meet their expectations than terrorism increases to dramatic levels. US and Israel use terrorism as a tool to impose their policies to Turkish Governments.  The Governments who don’t want to lose their rulership conform those pressures and accept the roles that US and Israel wants. And when Turkey accepts its role terrorism decreases. Referring the close history of Turkey, it is clearly seen. Also everyone knows the expense fights. It is incredible. Even the governments who has tax incomes can’t effort it and finds debts to financing of it. So how a terrorist group can finance it without foreign countries support? It’s impossible. Although sympathisers contribute PKK financially, the total of individual’s contributions cannot even be enough for one month’s feed and harbouring expenses of terrorists.

The biggest reason of increment of terrorism nowadays is, Turkish governments incepting of the role that US and Israel wants! Turkey extirpates foreign services men from deeper state. Turkey plans and implements its own policies. Turkey plays an opponent role if US and Israel’s policies are not acceptable for them. That is why terrorism increases.

If PKK was caring Kurdish people just a little bit, they would support the Kurdish initiative. But they increase their attacks to sabotage that process. Because they are managed by foreign secret services.  And, That is all! 

But Turkey is being changing. Turkey will go on to implement its own policies. Whatever we pay for the solution of terrorism, it will be solute. Just wait and see! 

And choose your side! Do you support terrorism or the solution?

If a close person dies of drugs or in a bombing act or kidnapped they will understand you...

For goverments, if the terrorists they support use the guns they provide to kill their own citizens, they will understand you.

Terrorism has no ethics. 

Well, it was not exactly your fault - is it ?.....you need not be over ashamed of being Dutch !

I guess this is an equivocal statement.

Barba_Mama is a Dutch citizen and she is one of the valuable contributors of this site. I can´t understand the reason of this recent anti-Dutch sentiment. I can understand the difference in mind sets which lead to different interpretations of certain matters. Why do we take the time and post here? We are seeking to understand one another and to converge as much as possible.

My previous post was ment for Alpha, so I would like to get an answer to that. What did the Dutch government do wrong with the PKK camp? Please read my previous post, where I shortly explain what the camp was (no guns, etc.) and what the Dutch government did. Tell me, how my government is supporting the PKK in this case, and how it didn´t deal with the situation in the correct way?

This is getting increasingly boring actually..But for the sake of looking for the truth:

- Terrorism is not an entity itself..Terrorism is the result of a social/economic/political dissatisfaction. Specially if the people who are not satisfied, can not express themselves the other ways(in the parties; in the parliaments etc) ..(There were over 50 groups in Turkey before 1980s that openly declared the armed struggle was the means they will use.. Many of them can be categorized as terrorists but only one group, Turkish Communist Party, had help from Soviets. And they were even not committed fully into armed struggle. None of the others had any foreign help agencies etc.)

- For the fantasists, I kept asking if them to show any proof!! was there a single proof? A HUGE NO.. I suspected the camp in Holland can be a camp but even it turned out to be not a camp at all.. The camp in France..? I can not see anything there!! With the way our fantasists definition, all these clubs/cultural organizations in all over Europe can be considered as camp.. But they are not!! so what do we have here after all those discussions? just fantasies..suspicions!! (I also explained "why getting rid of ´foreign elements´ out of discussion is so difficult for generations who are brain washed with those excuses decay after decay") ... In the end our entire army is fighting with terrorists for last 30 years and they are still up and fighting there..

-In the end WE HAVE A KURDISH PROBLEM in Turkey..And considering the support for the terrorists is HUGE (Kurdish party getting 1/3 of the votes from Kurds), a solution has to be developed for Kurdish problem+ PKK. You can not separate them now..There is no solution.

- I also explained in my numerous posts about those 17.000 deaths/ burning villages/ forcing people out/ all those cases went to EU Human Rights courts/ children killed etc.. Without taking all those into consideration when talking about the Kurdish problem will NOT have any credibility..

-I also explained about the reasons of the latest surge of PKK attacks.. If I am not wrong, I EVEN TOLD HERE THE ATTACKS WERE IMMINENT AND COMING! (because you dont need to be ´extra clever´ to see that: we stopped the opening; started to arrest Kurdish politicians; Apo pulls out of the talks.. AND PKK STARTS..Are you that BLIND to see above? is it a the rocket science?)

Basically in the end:

- We have a Kurdish Problem.. Our Kurdish issue has been the problem since 1920s.

- Thinking that "it is something to do with other countries or their secret services etc" has been excuses by the state to beef up the nationalistic feelings...And it was further developed by the fantasists whenever something happened without giving any proof.. (it is almost like having an argument with a person who believes in Dogma actually.. How do you believe without any evidence: I dont need evidence to believe that.. Allah allah!!)

- Thinking ´this is a terrorism problem only´ was WRONG in the first place and caused us almost 70.000 deaths..

- I think in the end, we Turks now realized there is no end to this fight.. We are not winning this war with armed struggle...We have to make peace.

- The peace will be and can be made between fighting parties..

- We have been saying ´terrorism only´ and tried to finish our Kurdish problem with the guns only and FAILED..

- More armed fights will only increase the resentment between Turks and Kurds.

The question is really very simple in the end:

- Looking at the problem as ´Terrorism only´ and keep fighting (like we did last 30 years and caused 70.000 death) and cause more resentment (and in the end split of Turkey)

- Accepting that ´it is not terrorism only´ and making peace, no more killing and living EQUALLY with the Kurds..

* There are internationally accepted definitions of terror and terrorism. The way you describe terrorism is irresponsible and it is not backed by any established civilized norm of thinking. 

* There is a Kurdish problem in Turkey and this problem did not start in 20´s. There have always been Kurdish uprisals in Anatolia. Ottomans used various methods such as offering titles or money to the kingpins or sending them on exile if they lay hold of them.  The way you write about this matter one might think you are Kurdish uprisal guru but you don´t even know the Ottoman leg of this complicated subject.

* You call the Turkish Armed Forces incompetent. The Turkish Armed Forces are manned by the citizens of this country. They do not use chemical weapons nor do they nuke the terrorists. They fight with arms available to all militaries in the world. They are our sons, brothers, uncles or friends. They risk their lives to carry out the orders they have been given. Now these people have a strong character, they are not seeking solutions they are just intercepting attacks by terrorists on this country. We count on our army for the defense of this country. This is not unique to Turkey. Wherever you go, all the militaries in the world function like this. You would rave about the compulsory military service in Turkey. You know there are other options. You could flee from this country and vilify the regime in Turkey to get a British residence permit. Thousands of people did this, it is not something new. You might scorn this but it takes guts just show up at the recruiting office and be one among the thousand deployed onto the enemy.

You should stop going personal like  ignorant people with low IQ we see here who have run out of ideas to argue, would do..

If you have something to say, say it without resorting to personal insult which you very well know will come back at you..

Apart from that, we talked about the defintion of terrorism here before.. So you should stop trying to lecture about it, because, obviously, you dont know much about terrorism or cause of it etc!!

I thought you would love to  leave  the important things to historians. and Now you are the expert of Ottoman history? eh? And since you ´know the Kurdish problem; is a historical problem, dont you think trying to associating the latest surge of the kurdish problem with Israel is a bit of a fantasie which is being used to for masturbation of national feelings? eh?

As far as the writings about the army is just about the love of the army you have in your heart.. Mine was much more what the situation is at the moment.. I dont know why you wanted to show how much you respect and love the army is unknown to me. Apart from me, there are many who think that ´our army has failed against the war on terror´ .. But what is wrong of saying that? Usa has failed against Al-kaide for example. I can not see the reason why you think it is something to do with patriotism. Lying or being blind or NOT telling the truth is nothing to do with the patriotism.

I dont think you are in a position to tell me what to do or what not to do really. By doing that you are getting one step closer to the racists of my country who scream ´love it or leave it´. (try to hide it next time please)

So DO NOT!!

Considering the critisizm Turkia and Turks get on this site...The critisizim Dutch get over selling out Bosnians in Serebrenitsa and harboring terorists for petty reasons is nothing.

They screwed up in every known test of humanity; there is no reason to keep quiet about such atrocities, just because they are Dutch.

You still think it is unfair to critisize the Dutch?