Let me touch on some events in the close Turkish history.

PKK attacks increase dramaicly in the beginnin of 90´s

1st gulf war. Turkey played a significant role. Terrorism decreased.

Turgut Ozal, the first civil president of Turkey died suspeciously in 93

Ugur Mumcu has been murdered with a bombed assassination, he was dealing with Israel-PKK relations before 

Adnan Kahveci and died in a traffic accident in a non-opened empty road. He was the finance ministre and a respected politician, he was expected to be the prime ministre 

Eşref Bitlis, the gendarme general commender died in a helicopter accident. He was a respected general who manage the fights with the PKK.

All these suspicious deaths occured in one year time.

Than later, extrem religious Necmettin Erbakan won the general elections. He has been signed the biggest gun and army IT agreement with Israel just before 28 February post modern coup. After 28 February, simultanously with the agreements with Israel PKK took the weapons away. 

White House declared their new Middle East policy in 98.

Apo, the leader of PKK, has been given to Turkish secret service in Kenya by another secret service. PKK didn´t take their guns in that dramatic process for themselves.

The nationalist party used to want to hang him most who was in the goverment those days.However capital punishment has been cancelled by them just after Apo has been given to Turkey. He hasnt been hanged. 

Economic crises begin in Turkey. Turkey losed 1/4th of her wealth

9/11

Ocuupancy of Afghanistan. Turkey played a significant role in "peace" power.

Ak Party won the elections

2nd gulf war. Turkey didnt send soldiers and didnt let her lands to be used! 

Than everything changed

Caryall was weared to Turkish soldiers heads.

Closing court was opened for AK Party

Street demonstrations began. Soldier was being called to do coup. The communuty got splited. Erdoğan was a powerful leader. The party didnt get closed. Ergenekon operations began. The generals of the era got prisoned as criminals of coup plans.

Bombings began again by PKK.

Davos events

Terrorism dramaticly increased again.

And flotilla atack. Same day an attack to Navy which is located just accross Israel.  

The most significant terrorist attacks are being performed

So i agree, Turkey hasnt been governed well even for about 200 years. The western affects were incredible. Even when the relocation was made the chif of defence was German and Turkey was being governed by Ittihat and Terakki which is Germanophile. Turkey took place with Germany in the first world war etc.

Soldiers always mentioned themselves as the owners of the country and they tried to solve everything with power. That increased and complexed the problems.

Turkeys 200 years destiny is being changing. Turkey is being governed by civilians who try to solve problems with democratization. Turkey began to make and implement its own policies.  

Kurdish opening is being made.

And PKK increases its attacks to a level which noone witnessed before.

Now tell me am i right or not to be sure of that PKK is the fork of secret services.

Now tell me am i suspicious or all those are related facts?

Now tell me Why???

And still no proof (no, not to you V, I understand you only have suspecions)

PKK is an illegal terrorist organization in Holland, who "we" actively try to battle within our borders. Whatever happens in Turkey is your business. How is the Dutch government protecting PKK? If you are talking about the Kurdish people who live here. Yes, if you are a non-violent person, not connected to PKK, you are allowed to live in Holland as a Kurdish person. Shocking isn´t it. You can even get political asylum. Some Kurds got that when they were almost thrown in jail in Turkey for, for example, publishing stuff in Kurdish (back when Kurdish was still banned). However, when the Turkish state or the Dutch state can proof that there is a PKK connection the people are handed over to Turkey to be locked up.

Dear BM,

I appreciate your efforts to understand the events in Turkey.

However, i dont think that you understand or i could explain the soul of events. It seems like you repeat words by rote. And if we try to make those correspondences to contrubute the solutions of problems, that style don´t help it at all.

Why do you think that would be shocking for me?

I live together with 10 millions Kurds and i am totally happy with that. I have many Kurdish close friends. And i am not unique. Everyone normal person in Turkey is like me.

The matter is terrorism. Which is not mostly about Kurds.

Look, I know you are an educated guy, and this makes your statements even more strange to me. There was a trainingcamp in Holland for the PKK, just like there are MANY trainingcamps in Turkey. That a trainingcamp is present in a country, does not mean that such an organisation is backed up by the government there. I think it´s wrong to say that the Dutch government is backing up PKK, because we are clearly working together with the Turkish government (as well as German and others) to try and battle PKK.

I know enough about Turkey and its internal politics to say this. I also know enough about my own country and its internal politics to make this statement. I´m sick of people in this thread making statements without any hint of proof, and saying that it´s either "top-secret" or that I just don´t understand it because I´m not from Turkey or because I´m from the West. I´m critical, that´s all. If you can´t convince me in the slightest bit that what you say MIGHT be true, than perhaps it´s not my knowledge that is bad, it´s just your arguments that are insufficient.

I agree with many points you mention above.. I tried to bolden the points I agree..

But when it comes to how all those events are ralated to PKK attacks are abit ´thin and weak´ and it also proves that you have not been following the events!!

1990s were the times when the most intense fighting happened in Turkey. It was  the times Jitem killed thousands of Kurds by just picking them up from the streets from their homes etc and then torturing and killing them.. It was also the times when it looked like "PKK can be defeated".

I dont want to go into details of the past events that much.. But just look at the last couple of months.. The terror was screaming ´I am coming´. Just read that post:

http://www.turkishclass.com/turkish/forum/forumTitle_47503

The government reacted by cracking down on the Kurdish Communities Union, or KCK, the alleged urban wing of the terrorist organization. Even dozens of elected mayors in the Southeast were arrested by the police, which was clearly a mistake. The PKK responded with more violence, and that is how we got here.

It is clearly NOTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL. Why should it be? It was not Israel arrested those Kurdish politicians.. It was not israel stopped the Kurdish opening?

Those politicians were arrested by the state.. Kurdish openning was stopped by the nationalists (I hope temporarily) !!

And Apo was saying way before that the he is going to pull out end of that month-just before the attacks starting- Everybody who knows the politics, knew that it was coming!!And no Israel-ships-flotills were in the horizon at the time people realised the attacks were going to start!! They say that the first attack (at the same day of Israel-ships incident) was planned long long before..

Because , you were told year after year that ´it is all terrorism and it is all foreign elements´ you are instinctly looking at the countries that you can blame when there is an incident. Not only you personally.. Some papers/politicians/army generals are doing that too..

I know it is difficult to accept that.. Because, if you do, it will be like your life jacket is

taken away.. It was the excuse for many many years for the failures..

The good news is, we NOW know that our Kurdish problem is our INTERNAL problem. So instead of blaming the others, we are looking for a solution...And "The Kurdish opening" is the sole PROOF of it. (that also explains why most Turkish nationalists are against it.. Because, years after years they said -ah it is terrorism only and it is all foreign involvement- If it was true, WHY would there be an opening?)

I just saw Armegon´s post about Netherland PKK camp disguising themselves as cultural centers. That was what I was trying to say the other day : In Turkey, we are almost living in a world of our own.. People in other countries like netherland,uk,france etc have something and they call it democracy. In those set of codes, people, as long as they dont take arms into their hands to force their ideas, have some rights.. For example.. You can have a tshirt with  Bobby Sands printed at the fornt (He is an Irish terrorist died on hunger strike). They can form a club/cultural center etc and praise him and IRA.

You can not put that person into jail!! Because that person has some (human) rights. But in Turkey, you can!! how? well.. Clearly, when people/state officials in Turkey, talking about ´human rights´,  definetely it is not the same ´human rights´ in other countries!! 

And when you say that but there is only one type of ´human rights´ and then those guys go: ´I dont want these human rights; your human rights are used to legalize terrorism; i dont want your democracy etc´

But in the end, we are not North Korea. We can be like them by isolating ourselves but we want to be in europe, we want to be the leading country in the middle east etc.. 

What you have to understand is that while a PKK training camp is considered to be  terorist camp by Turkia, the Dutch - while appearing to agree the Turkish opinion in public forums - underhandedly support PKK activities on the assumption that PKK is an organisation of freedom fighters.

If what I said is not true, it would have been logical to expect Dutch authorities to clamp down on PKK terorist camps and deport inhabitants to Turkia; there are many international agreements which require their cooperation with Turkia. We obviously want our terorists in our own mountains.

What the Dutch forget is that teror and terorism is a two edged knife; very dangerous to play with. There can not be good terorists and bad terorists. It can happen to them as well, making them sorry for this clowning in their past.

Just like they sided with Serb terorists in Sreberenitsa in the past, they are covertly chosing to side with Kurdish terorists now. If the worst comes, they will start crying and claiming it was all a mistake.

... Sorry, but I don´t understand the previous post. The camp was run over by a Dutch police force. And with "trainingcamp" I don´t mean something like running-tracks and high tech equipment. It was a bunch of people talking to eachother in tents, and a renovated farm-building. There were no actual guns. The camp was located on a remote camping in a wooded area, which everybody is allowed to rent. I guess the PKK people chose it because it is so remote and low key. Almost all of the people arrested there were prosecuted, however one of the arrests made on that day (at a different location) was not prosecuted. It had to do with some legal stuff. The immagration service wanted to prosecute him, but there was lack of evidence that he was actually the man that they arrested in the first place. On that day arrests were made at the camp, and 10 houses around Holland were ran over that day. Two of which had nothing suspicious in them Whoopsy!

...so what was it exactly that the Dutch police or government did wrong?

Oh yeah, and what has this to do with the ignorant remark that the killings on the boat were like the holocaust? I think there is to much talk about Holland on this forum about Turkey. I guess it has something to do with me being Dutch, because everytime I open my mouth a Dutch-bashing begins.

interesting how the thread about the holocaust changed into the dutch thread..sorry nothing personally against Dutchthey really put some effort in printing leaflets against 2nd world war

The story of TC:

"interesting how the thread about the ______________ (Insert Topic) changed into the _______________ (Insert Topic) thread"

No one can prove these suspicious deaths were assassinations or not. Only the assessors know that and they never tell the truth. That is why strategic thinking is like completing a 10000 pieces puzzle. You have to know the history, you have to know the political and sociological trends of the societies who are involved in that event. You have to know the political and economical expectations of those societies who are a part of a social event. And most important, one needs acumen and conscience to fulfil the missing points. So if one keeps asking for proofs of social events s/he does not know the structure of the social events or s/he keeps asking for that just to refute the other side’s ideas and dictate his/her own ideas. These ones generally don’t seek the truth and have conscience problems. They mostly have hidden agendas and hidden aims. They don’t talk for the solution of the problem they rather look for supports to their hidden aims. Those people are generally opportunists and every single event is grablable for them to reach their aims. 

So the biggest problem between us and them is that trust problem. I don’t trust that ones who keeps asking for proof wants to be a part of the solution but deepen them and reach their aims.

Coming to PKK terror.  Anyone who don’t blame terrorism, regardless the ethnicity or religion of those terrorist, exactly losed their conscience. Terrorism uses different arguments in different times. Today it can be Kurdish problem, tomorrow Christianity etc. Whatever they provoke, it is just a tool for them to reach their bloody aims. Terrorists never represent an ethnic group or religion. They just use those figures to convince the members of those groups and acquire militants. Such as Al Qaida uses Islamic figures for their bloody aims but they never represent Islam.

So if one wants to be trustable s/he has to blame terrorism and stop trying to justfy it!

PKK terror and Kurdish society’s problems are definitely different issues. Even as a Turkish I have many social problems in Turkey. Such as covered girls still cannot enter the universities although that is their basic human rights. Second examples; thousands of left wingers or right wingers have been killed especially in coup eras. But none of those groups take their guns and run the mountains to use terrorism for the solution of their problems. Problems are not solved in a community in one day. But sooner or later those matters are solved in political process. Terrorism never solves the problems but deepens them. That is why the ones who are fed by problems use terrorism!

Kurdish society also took their negative shares of anti-democratic eras of Turkey. Language bans, identity matters are the main ones. Although it’s provoked and enlarged by terrorists, a lot of Kurdish people are killed because of their ideas. Just like the killed and tortured left wingers and right wingers. We judge coup soldiers because of those anti democratic actions.

At that point foreign secret services involvement on the problem comes out. Secret services are always opportunists and they have no ethics at all. Whatever is profitable for them, can be used. So in order the anti democratic acts create a discomfort in the society, the secret services use that as a potential to create a real chaos. They use all kinds of disinformation to reach their aim. That is why you can see many people who repeat those secret services disinformation as the facts. Thehandsome in that forum does that a lot.  Such as so called burned villages lie is the main ones of those. Even in the most antidemocratic eras none of Turkish Governments grated innocent groups.  Those disinformation are just made to deepen the problem and widen the opportunities of creating possible militants and sympathisers. 

But why mainly Israel and USA and also European and different secret services support terrorism? The sources of the west are decreasing. The power balance is shifting from west to east. That is why USA’s policy is to locate in the east. That is the main reason of Greater Middle East Project. We must also bear in our minds of Israel’s extreme religious policies and their effect power in USA’s policies. Turkey plays a significant role in that region and an important regional player. So Turkey has roles on that plan. If Turkey plays the role that Israel and US wants, terrorism decreases and if Turkey don’t meet their expectations than terrorism increases to dramatic levels. US and Israel use terrorism as a tool to impose their policies to Turkish Governments.  The Governments who don’t want to lose their rulership conform those pressures and accept the roles that US and Israel wants. And when Turkey accepts its role terrorism decreases. Referring the close history of Turkey, it is clearly seen. Also everyone knows the expense fights. It is incredible. Even the governments who has tax incomes can’t effort it and finds debts to financing of it. So how a terrorist group can finance it without foreign countries support? It’s impossible. Although sympathisers contribute PKK financially, the total of individual’s contributions cannot even be enough for one month’s feed and harbouring expenses of terrorists.

The biggest reason of increment of terrorism nowadays is, Turkish governments incepting of the role that US and Israel wants! Turkey extirpates foreign services men from deeper state. Turkey plans and implements its own policies. Turkey plays an opponent role if US and Israel’s policies are not acceptable for them. That is why terrorism increases.

If PKK was caring Kurdish people just a little bit, they would support the Kurdish initiative. But they increase their attacks to sabotage that process. Because they are managed by foreign secret services.  And, That is all! 

But Turkey is being changing. Turkey will go on to implement its own policies. Whatever we pay for the solution of terrorism, it will be solute. Just wait and see! 

And choose your side! Do you support terrorism or the solution?