Thousands pray for Istanbul landmark to become mosque

Αs a Greek-Orthodox who comes from Asia Minor i totally agree with you

An example of the huge power that symbols have in people´s minds. A person can pray in any place of the city but he needs to pray exactly in the place which is forbidden for him.

I think it has to do with the will of Fatih:

http://gizlenentarihimiz.blogspot.com/2009/06/fatih-sultan-mehmedin-ayasofya.html

Maybe they should have listened to him in the first place but as they didn´t raising the issue again in 2012 looks like troublemaking to me.

I think the majority of the Turkish people want to keep the museum just the way it is. Just a handfull of frustrated people want to change it... ill-treatment by the west, blah. It´s not the west that decided this should be a museum, and Christianity is also not a "western" religion. They´re clearly some people who don´t know what they´re talking about.

I wish that Hagia Sophia can survive in the first place. If the expected major earthquake hits Istanbul, the old and weary building may not survive it. Imagine for a moment, that this magnificient temple is lost forever. Would Istanbul be the same?

When you enter the building and check out the things people wrote on its pillars hundreds of years ago, you realize that it is the mere moment that belongs to you and not the temple.

One must familiarize himself with the ways of religious thinking, they believe they follow God´s way which leads them to what is good. They think there is nothing better than doing what they are already doing. They are claiming this temple in the name of God. This is exactly the same notion that destroyed all the mosques in Athens. None of the Athenians must be believing they have actually lost anything by not having any mosques left in their city; none of the persons praying for the buildings conversion into a mosque believe they will lose anything either.

These thoughts must have been running in Atatürk´s mind back in 1934 when he decided to turn it into a museum. The decision came at a time when there was mounting pressure on Ankara to turn Hagia Sophia into a church again.

The building is 1500 years old, older than Islam itself. They dedicated it to Jesus; I wonder he would be pleased as a proponent of selflessness and humility. It has served as a temple, saw pillages and has gradually ran down, leave the building alone... It has already done its job in one and a half millenia.

haghia sophia was repaired by the great architech mimar sinan. the minarets added to four corners. they are not just only minarets but also makes the building stronger for eartquakes and collapsing. historical records tells that the dome of haghia sophia was collapsed more than one time in the history.

AYASOFYA´NIN KUBBESİ

Yusuf b. Abdullâh´ın Tevârih-i Âl-i Osman´ında şöyle yazılıdır:

Muhammed Mustafa (s.a.v.) dünyaya geldiğinde Medâyin´de Nuşirevan-ı Âdil´in tâk-i kisrası (köşkünün kubbesi) zelzeleden aşağıya göçtü. Acem vilayetinde ateşperestlerin ateşi söndü. Ayasofya´nın kubbesi çatladı. İmparator o kubbeyi tekrar yaptırdı ve her yaptırışında yıkıldı. Neticede âciz kaldılar ve râhipler ittifak edip imparatora gelerek durumu anlattılar: ´Arap diyârında bir Peygamber zuhur etmiştir,adı Muhammed´dir, onun dünyaya gelmesiyle bu kubbe yıkılmıştır, derman ancak ondan gelir´ dediler.

İmparator Herakliyus hemen itibarlı bir elçiyi hediyelerle Peygamberimiz Hz. Muhammed´e (s.a.v.) gönderdi. Elçi mektupla varıp durumu bildirdi. Muhammed Mustafa (s.a.v.) ağız suyunu alıp güzel bir taşa sürdü ve elçiye verdi: "BU TAŞI KUBBEYE KOYUNUZ" buyurdu. Elçi de taşı Herakliyus´a götürdü. Herakliyus taşı bina ustalarına verdi, onlar da kubbeyi yeni baştan inşa ederken bu taşı kubbeye yerleştirdiler. Kubbe bir daha yıkılmadı.

This is an English language forum ikicihan.

As for the dome and the "mouth water smeared on a stone that renders the dome of Hagia Sophia earthquake proof."; Muhammad was not a wizard, nor did he have supernatural talents. In fact, this point is clearly made in Islam and it is often used as a defensive argument against certain sects of the Christian religion that consider Jesus as the son of God.

Islam orders you to use your mind to testify whether a story is true or not. Whoever quoted this, quoted it in vain because it contradicts with the basic teachings of Islam. By pointing out to "mind" as the measure of "truth", the Quran invalidates any superstitious beliefs.

If an earthquake happens, Hagia Sophia´s dome will collapse and the building can be shattered into pieces if the forces applied to it exceeds it structural limits. Hagia Sophia is not the oldest building in the world. Collesium is much older and pyramids are several times as old as Hagia Sophia. The only reason they stood the test of time is because they were built to last using proper techniques.

Actually, the chance that Hagia Sofia will collapse is rather small. When the dome was repeared the last time, they have used a certain special concreet. It is actually always slightly wet. So any cracks that appear slowly repair itself. The cracks that might have appeared from the last earthquake in the region have already repaired itself. Thank you Discovery Channel for this information They had a whole documentary about the dome, the repears Sinan had done, and the chances that the dome would collaps. By the way, the minarets do not make the structure stronger in any way.

Dome

Interior of the Hagia Sophia by John Singer Sargent, 1891

The dome of Hagia Sophia is carried on four concave triangular pendentives, a form which was first fully realized in this building. The pendentives serve to transition from the circular base of the dome to the rectangular base below.  These were reinforced with buttresses during Ottoman times, under the guidance of the architect Mimar Sinan. The weight of the dome remained a problem for most of the building´s existence. The original dome collapsed entirely in 558; in 563 a new dome was built which included ribbing and was slightly taller than the original. Larger section of the second dome collapsed as well, in two portions. The present dome consists of two sections at the north and south that date from the 562 reconstruction. The north section covers an area of 8 ribs of the whole dome’s 40, while the south section includes 6 ribs. 

The dome has spurred particular interest for many art historians, architects and engineers because of the innovative way the original architects envisioned the dome. The dome is supported by pendentives, which not only restrain the lateral forces of the dome and allow its weight to flow downwards, but also achieve a pleasing aesthetic quality by enabling the dome to transition gracefully into the square shape of the space below.

The face of one of the seraphim in the upper left corner, once covered during the Fossati Brothers restoration, is visible again.

Although this design stabilizes the dome and the surrounding walls and arches, the actual construction of the walls of Hagia Sophia weakened the overall structure. The bricklayers used more mortar than brick, which weakened the walls. The structure would have been more stable if the builders at least let the mortar cure before they began the next layer; however, they did not do this. When the dome was placed atop the building, the weight of the dome caused the walls to lean outward because of the wet mortar underneath. When Isidorus the Younger rebuilt the original dome, he had to first build up the interior of the walls so that they were vertical in order to support the weight of the new dome. Additionally, Isidore the Younger raised the height of the rebuilt dome by approximately six metres so that the lateral forces would not be as strong and the weight of the dome would flow more easily down into the walls.

Another interesting fact about the original structure of the dome was how the architects were able to place forty windows around the base of the dome. Hagia Sophia is famous for the mystical quality of light that reflects everywhere in the interior of the nave, which gives the dome the appearance of hovering above the nave. This design is possible because the dome is shaped like a scalloped shell or the inside of an umbrella with ribs that extend from the top of the dome down to the base. These ribs allow the weight of the dome to flow between the windows, down the pendentives, and ultimately to the foundation.

The unique character of the design of Hagia Sophia shows how this structure is one of the most advanced and ambitious monuments of late antiquity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

i heard that special mortar was prepared by mixing eggs, especially ostrich egg to the mortar in historic buildings which makes the mortar extremely strong. also no spider makes any web when ostrich egg added to the mortar.

Sultan Ahmet had the right approach; he chose to compete with St. Sophia.

He did not try to pretend he owned it.

I hope we Moslems never take over Paris. It will be rather difficult to explain our idiots that Eiffel is not the proper place to pray.

In my opinion, Hagia Sophia should remain as a Museum. Since it was built as a church. In every historic monuments has its own spirit and to me Hagia Sophia has a christian spirit in it

Strength of Christian spirit in St Sophia is highly debatable. What it has is a very strong pagan spirit. You can see signs of POSEIDON there; very hard to explain in a purely Christian temple 

To me, Hagia Sophia embodies the duality of Istanbul and should remain a museum.  Istanbul is both European and Asian, Christian and Muslim, East and West...why not have a museum dedicated to that very theme.  I love the mixture of both Christian and Muslim themes in the building.  It is a very special place for me personally because it is a reflection of my own personal life. 

according to islam any place on this planet is mescid and muslims need not particular places to pray as in the picture in the first post to this thread  people perform their friday prayer in the open air and on the grass in that park between ayasofya and blue mosque, so ayasofya should remain as it is: a museum, I think.

Nothing wrong with " we Moslems ´ taking  over Paris " The wrong thing is calling our people "idiots ".

He´s not saying all muslims are idiots, just saying that the idiots within islam (thus "our" idiots) need to be explained something.

I didnt think he said "all muslims muslims are idiot ". when you say "our people", that needs to be explained..who are those "our people" ? and why you think they are idiot ? Calling group of people, community, or whatever, as "idiot" is wrong anyway..

 If you honestly believe there are no idiots among Muslims at all, you´ d better see a shrink.

Quoting ikicihan

Dome

Interior of the Hagia Sophia by John Singer Sargent, 1891

 

Thanks ikicihan. I love JSS (Carnation Lily Lily Rose in the Tate being my all time favourite) but I didn´t know he had done paintings of Istanbul. Will have to start exploring this on the web ...

I don´t think calling a group of ignorant people idiots is wrong. Idiots are idiots.

Ok. who is those "idiots" then ? The moslems who are intending to pray in Eiffel Tower ? If so, I cant see any "idiot " situation there .

Do you want their names and telephone numbers tunci? 

You have problems, if you can not see the idiocity in Moslems with intentions to make a Mescid out of Eiffel.

Not making Mescid, but you can pray with "Seccade" in Eiffel Tower, as long as allowed. Not necessarly making Mescid in it. Praying [ Namaz] can be performed anywhere.

You are discussing about where to pray, I am thinking about if I will ever pray with this laziness God help me.

Is it possible that when a group of people are called idiots that someone with the same affiliation may get their feelings hurt?  I don´t see how a public display prayer makes you an idiot.  It didn´t harm anyone and it is a form of self expression.  These people where not violently protesting or making any trouble.  To me this seemed like many people getting together to try to accomplish a goal through prayerful means.    

Excellent post Elisabeth. You seem to be left holding the fort by yourself but you are doing an excellent job.

You can call any Moslem group "idiots", if they treasure intentions like putting their seccades down and  praying in Eifell tower.... if they dont care what non-moslem French will feel about that, why should anybody care for their feelings.

Being a Moslem  (at least to me) is a serious affair. İf god said a Moslem can pray anywhere, he did not mean " in the middle of a circus tent, while the show is on".

Stop clowning if you are talking about Islam, especially in a discussion with me.

All idiots should know damn well that "seccade" is not an obligatory requirement for praying and private praying (not namaz) is allowed anywhere, including St Sophia.

What is your problem ?

Will you shut your bloody mouth up ? You think you know about Islam...but you dont know anything. Of course we know "seccade" is not a necessary item to perfom Namaz. To pray on a dusty and concrete floor you surely need it. As I said, Muslims can pray anywhere, why is that Eiffel tower should be excluded ? what is it your protective love about Eiffel thing ?

Muslims should NOT call other muslims as " IDIOTS" , that is first lesson for you..OK ?

My problem isn´t with your opinion of proper prayer conditions.  I don´t know and am not interested in the technical issues of muslim prayer. It seems some segments of the muslim community don´t feel this is a problem...I just don´t agree that makes them idiots.   

Elizabeth, I have just read a newspaper article (in Hurriyet) that tells about the current frenzy in the (government sponsored/controlled) media to ask imams´ opinion about every single matter.

He tells how a medical doctor attending a TV forum that focused on abortion and caesserian birth was given just five minutes and got abruptly interrupted several times while the clergymen talking on the same subjects were assigned 25 or so minutes. He continues to give more and more examples about this.

In Turkey it is the clergymen doing the talk about anything and experts are getting muffled.

AlphaF must be witnessing this too. That is why he calls these people "idiots". This is quite a hot issue in Turkey. I wish we had more people like AlphaF reacting to this stupidity.

I completely understand what you are saying vineyards.  The same is happening in the US between secular people and conservative religious people.  Many secularists like to portray people who pray as idiots, "red necks" and radicals. It just isn´t so.  Maybe you don´t agree and maybe you are correct but to just discount how people feel and what they do by calling them idiots doesn´t add to the debate it only adds fuel to the fire.  My aim was not to disagree with AlphaF´s opinion but only to disagree with his assessment that these people are just idiots.  

No one here called praying Moslems "idiots" Elisabeth. I said any Moslem who aspired to perform "namaz" in Eiffel Tower or similar places, claiming that its his/her divine right simply because God allowed Moslems to pray anywhere (btw, there are some exceptions) is an idiot.

Perhaps you can understand the situation better if you consider that you may have to acknowledge similar rights for fire worshipping doctors of the world to conduct their prayers in Eiffel Tower too....While some Moslems humbly declare they will be content with just a clean seccade to perform their prayers, those dear doctors would pobably need a good/respectable bonfire at a convenient corner of Eiffel Tower first.

I don´t think you can compare the two groups.  One poses a public danger (fire) the other does not.

In any case Alpha, it seems that the Turkish government is drifting toward a more islamic regime.  I still object to you calling people idiots.   That is simply how I feel.  I understand perfectly that you think its fine to do so because you feel your reasons for doing so are justified.  Again, I respectfully disagree.

Tunci, you muslims have everything at your disposal now. It is weird you are still concerned about where to pray. You have the government, presidency, justice, economy and private sector at your disposal. The acquisiton of the media dogs (as refered to by Mr. Erdogan) is also complete. Now are you seriously feel burdened because the Eiffel tower may not be available for praying?

As a matter of fact, you have the power to turn Hagia Sophia into anything you like. You don´t have to heed the opposition in Turkey anyway. Go ahead and do whatever you want but don´t accuse the opposition for anything. Your guys are bound by themselves. I am sure they are waiting for the day when they feel a bit more courageous.

Vineyard,

I am not concerned at where to pray. I am concerned about some people call other people "idiots" so easly.

People can pray anywhere, not necesarrly has to be muslims. I would be against if some christians would be called "idiots" by other christians or muslims.

I am against extremism in Religion [ in Islam or other religion ]

I am against Hagia Sofia being turned into Mosque as that wont be fair on Christians.

I dont care the goverment.

Anyone should be able to pray in Eiffel tower as long as allowed. That doesnt mean  Eiffel Tower should be converted into a muslim temple.

I understand your fears , fears of  Turkey heading into anti-secular regime. Let me tell you that I would be the last person wanting to see it to happen. I was raised as a Kemalist and I want to die as a Kemalist.[believe it or not]

Your generalising muslims as  you all wanting this or you all wanting that , you have the power, you have this and that,  is not right.

I was raised as a Kemalist too. I lived some part of my life as an atheist. But sufi thoughts effected me a lot and I became a muslim. I had prejudgements about conservative people. This year I started to do my doctorate in a theology faculty. I observe my teachers. They are conservative but they are  good people. They understand humor. They are helpful. Some of them really read a lot and know many things. They are modern. They use technology effectively. My prejudgements blinded me and I couldn´t see how they really were. If there is something to be afraid of, it is not İslam or muslims, it is ignorance and ignorant people. I believe many fanatics are ignorant people and ignorant people can really use violance to make happen what they want. There are ignorant Muslims but there are also ignorant atheists. There are some atheists who would be happy to see all Muslims dead and there are Muslims who wants the same thing for atheists. And not all Muslims have same thoughts about everything. There are many different ideas and interpretions.

We should try to understand eachother. I respect Atatürk but I try to understand what Saidi Nursi wants to tell. I try to be obejective as much as I can. And I know this very well, knowledge is power.

I will be glad if muslim praying is allowed in hagia sophia again. in other words, mosque again.

All you need to do is to add a carpet and cover pictures maybe with a curtain at the prayer time which is less than two hours in a day.

It can be still visited by tourists as sultan ahmet (blue mosque), no need to call it a museum but may be used as a museum too. Actually it is not a proper museum, nothing is displayed there but the building itself is displayed. This is same for all historic buildings, mosques, churches... Being a mosque cannot stop being visited as a historic building like selimiye mosque.

Why mosque but not church. Because most of the Turks are muslim and wants to see it as a mosque. If we were for example in Spain, i would say it might be a cathedral. See Cathedral–Mosque of Córdoba: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral%E2%80%93Mosque_of_C%C3%B3rdoba

Two wrongs don´t make a right.

All this commotion about a place to pray, Ayasofiya started off as a Basilica then a Mosque and now a museum, can we give the pour girl a rest and let her be a museum? When Mohamad started preaching did he preach in a mosque?  When Jesus preached did he preach in a church?  I don´t think so, they preached in the open air, in fields and private homes.  It is us, common worshipers who decided to build building to glorify our gods in them and some of those building are decorated in such opulance and richeness that it overshadows our religion and is more a simbole of our socilal standing, our faith, which ever it is, is in our hearths and souls and it should not matter where we pray.  Is it really that important where we pray?  It is just a building made of mortar and stone.

Mehmed the Conquerer changed St. Sophia into a mosque and willed "Whoever abolishes this, may he be cursed by Allah the Almighty."

in turkish:

Ayasofya Camii vakıf senedinde vakıf sahibi Fatih Sultan Mehmet şöyle demektedir:

Kim ki, bozuk teviller, hurafe ve dedikodudan öteye geçmeyen batıl gerekçelerle, bu vakfın şartlarından birini değiştirirse veya kanun ve kurallarından birini tağyir ederse; vakfın tebdili ve ip­tali için gayret gösterirse; vakfın ortadan kalkmasına veya maksa­dından ve gayesinden başka bir gayeye çevrilmesine kast ederse, vakfın temel hayır müesseselerinden birinin yerine başka bir ku­rum ikame eylemek (temel müesseselerden birinden taviz ver­mek) ve vakfı bölümlerinden birine itiraz etmek dilerse veya bu manada yapılacak değişiklik veya itirazlara yardımcı olur yahut yol gösterirse veya şer´i şerife aykırı olarak vakıfta tasarruf etmeye azm eylerse, mesela şeri´ata ve vakfiyeye aykırı ferman, be­rat, tomar veya talik yazarsa veyahut tevliyet hakkı resmi yahut takrir hakkı resmi ve benzeri bir şey taleb ederse, kısaca batıl ta­sarruflardan birini işler yahut bu tür tasarrufları tamamen geçer­siz olan yazılı kayıtlara ve defterlere kaydeder ve bu tür haksız işlemlerini yalanlar yumağı olan hesaplarına ilhak ederse, [167] açıkça büyük bir haram işlemiş olur, günahı gerektiren bir fiili ir­tikab eylemiş olur. Allah´ın, meleklerin ve bütün insanların la´neti üzerlerine olsun. "Ebeddiyyen Cehennemde kalsınlar, onların azapları asla hafifletilmesin ve onlara ebeddiyyen merhamet olunmasın. Kim bunları duyup gördükten soma değiştirirse ve­bali ye günahı bunu değiştirenlerin üzerine olsun. Hiç şüphe yok ki, Allah her şeyi işitir ve her şeyi bilir."

http://www.ayasofya.org/tarihi-belge-ve-dokumanlar/182-tapu-kadastro-genel-mudurlugunde-bulunan-ayasofya-ile-ilgili-arapca-vakfiyenin-tercumesi.html

Hum!  Funny that whoever changes the vocation of the Ayasofia will be cursed by Allah himself just by the sheer power of the will of 1 man.  The same could be said about Mehmet the Conquerer, that he burn in hell for turning Ayasofia from a Basilica to a Mosque.  It could be considered a desicration of a holy place.

The best for the Ayasofiya is to keep it as a museum to preserve the dualety of it, it is both christian and muslim and no one can take that away from it.  The Ayasofia has survived for centuries and served her perpose well for whatever vocation it was used for in the past, like I said before she deserves a rest and to be admired.

As an absurde comparison, should we resume gladiatorial fights at the colosium in Rome or keep it as a tourist attraction?  That is what it´s original porpouse was, fights to the death, impalings, burning at the stakes and crussifictions for the amusements of the general public!

Some interesting facts about the Hagia Sophia (Ayasofya)

In 2011 it had 3.1 million visitors and generated 48.5 million Turkish liras in revenue.

This was the second most visited site in Turkey last year.

Source here 

What I wanted to say is in gokuyum´s post. Believers are not a homogenous group of people and ignorance is our biggest threat.

This thread has become an interesting one. So many posts that make you think.

Btw, in my opinion there is nothing wrong in using strong language sometimes as long as it is not used for insulting someone personally. I like to use big words myself sometimes and I expect people to understand I don´t mean them literally.

As a collective reply those with a Kemalist background. I know we are all Kemalists essentially. Our president, our prime minister have all become Kemalists. This love has turned into a Comic Opera.

Long live the Kemalists, why should they be against you. If it opens a door or two into where they are already trying to enter, they are all Kemalists or to set the record straight they are his keen admirers. They simply like him, it is the name of the game these days. Why should they let the opposition have such a mighty toy? Kemal changed Turkey into a modern democracy, now if they start to change the definition Kemalism a bit, in time, they could do some reverse engineering and put it back where they like it to be.

There is a chess player facing you and he is about to capture your Kemal. Keep on reading their charms that will eventually awaken the monster of bigotry. You will regret one day.

As an outsider it seems to me that kemalism is a strong plus word for Turks. A similar plus word like freedom, democracy or independence are everywhere. No one in his right mind ever questions a plus word. It would be a political suicide. Instead, we use the same word but give it new meanings.

Why don’t you join the EU? The Union will protect your freedom of word and democracy against all sorts of extremists.

Why aren´t we joining the EU? That is some question really. Are you asking this seriously?

Abla with all due respect, you can´t sell democracy and freedom like selling a Mercedes. It is like asking a poor guy: "Why don´t you buy a Merc pal, it has everything you need."

Well, I can´t because your guys attacked me from all corners. They did this by offering freedom to the Balkans and Arabs at a time when they were busy doing dirty work of slave trade and colonism in their own back yards. After having lost an entire young generation (remember Dardanelles, Tripoli, Yemen, the Balkan Wars, Russian front), we have no money to afford a Mercedes.

The net result was the creation of medieval style, oil rich nations that perpetually fight with one another. They are still coming up with new forms of freedom words like the Arab Spring while they keep on bombing their lands.

We must not import freedom from anyone, we must not transfer your understanding of freedom. We must develop our own version and you must stop trying to export your beloved regime everywhere.

If the West could stop pokin its nose everyone else´s business, this world would be a better place. To prove this point just check out how much money the West has so far poured into wars and conflicts and how much for the charity work? Stop trying to help the world. Just leave the world alone.

Yes, I was asking seriously. I wanted to know your opinion especially, vineyards.

I am aware that Europe has had serious problems with the same issues that it is now marketing to other continents. And not so long ago indeed. Maybe I am naive but I believe in learning from mistakes. My country strongly supports widening the Union to the East. In my opinion it doesn´t only mean exporting western values to Turkey but also changing EU into something else, a global player, a truely multicultural society. If Turkey was a member it would be one of biggest nations in EU. Here is one view from a person whose analyse I respect (woops, the speech is a little bit old but the man is saying approximately the same until today):

http://www.tuomioja.org/index.php?mainAction=showPage&id=1122&category=4

I am sorry if my question about joining the EU in order to escape from local problems sounded irritating. There is a reason. After the second World War Finland managed to stay independent but through the cold war years it had a sick friendship with the Soviet Union. That´s why it was important for us to enter into an allience with the west when the first chance occurred.

I was trying to sell you my recipe and see if you like it, that´s all.

This year I started to do my doctorate in a theology faculty.

I hope you mean a doctorate in Catholic Christian theology.

Nothing would make me happier than seeing a Muslim Pope in Vatican. If you can prove to be theologically good enough, Christian clergy should not bar your way, just because you are a moslem ! 

EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER

Why aren´t we joining the EU? That is some question really. Are you asking this seriously?

In all fairness, we must consider how the IRISH feel after a few years in EU, before we decide. 

http:// worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/31/11952055-will-crisis-hit-ireland-rebel-against-harsh-remedy-for-ailing-europe?lite

How would Merkel look with a tiny (fake) moustache on her upper lip?

Well said barba !

Ugh.. I wrote such a good piece about the funding Ireland has received in the past to build up their industry and improve infrastructure! Ireland has been a "receiver" from the EU since...forever This means they receive more from the EU than they give, in money. Same is true for Spain (who complains about the EU now too...uhum). Countries like Germany (and The Netherlands) have been "contributers" since the beginning. They put more money in the EU than they receive. Anyway, my point was that people always seem to forget what the EU did for countries like Ireland and Spain... If they hadn´t received that funding they would have been much worse by now.

...and Greece which according to a rumour is treated unjustly and whom EU wants to humiliate now is receiving support from other euro countries worth a sum which divided per capita makes 33.600 euros for every Greek citizen until 2014.

Germany, the evil of the evil, is the biggest payer.

Well, Greece has always been Europe´s spoiled child. Europe has always backed them against Turkey. The US aid back in the 70´s and 80´s had a ratio of 10/7. Turkey had more than 50 million population and Greece had something like seven. They are used to being taken care of.

Nevertheless, it is the bureaucrats responsibility to think about the consequences when they attempt to build such a large scale commitment like the EU.

I don´t remember anyone protesting the accession of Greece, Spain or Portugal. The process was so swift, painless and instantly welcomed. Remember the initial ideal: a European union that would rival the US. What we are getting instead looks more like communism: not the poor workers but the poorer countries demanding a share from the common wealth. In the end of this, there will be a more homogenous, inflation and poverty stricken Europe...

So nice to be surrounded with intelligent people here, all striving to learn Turkish language.

Who is going to need anything else, 20 years from now?

I don´t know about the "striving" part but I am sure Turkish is one of the most difficult languages to learn. It takes a lot of dedication to master it. The speakers of the other agglutinative languages feel the same about their own languages. Finnish for example is a lot more difficult compared to say Dutch.

It takes a lot to learn Turkish; the learners have my respect...

The more I have learned about Turkish the more I have begun to admire those Turks who speak good English. They have come a long way from the structures of their native language. If I didn´t study Turkish myself I would have no idea of this: when you learn new things the world grows bigger for you.

I am a native speaker of an agglutinative language also but it is not the same. Swedish has had a remarkable affect on the Finnish sentence. For instance we have the same kind of participle structures like in Turkish (that´s why they are easy for me to learn) but in present day Finnish they are very much replaced with Indo-European type subclauses. The step to speaking English is not so long for a Finnish schooler.

The linguistic history of Finland must be one of the most interesting. The Finnish language is like the test tube of how communities adopt a language, how they turn their back to it due to the changes in the cultural environment and how it revived due to the rise of patriotic feelings.

The way I perceive it, no matter how great the influence of other cultures can be, a language tends to hold on to its own grammar. For example, despite massive changes it has had due to Persian and Arabic influence, Turkish has retained its grammar to a great extent. The abundance of Persian, Arabic, Italian and Greek loan words can be explained in the context of a great empire extending several continents. Iran and Arabia had special places because, Iran had been ruled by Turks for centuries and it supports a very huge Azeri population. With the Arabs we have the religion link. Sultans coming after Yavuz did their best to convert the native communities in Anatolia into Sunnites.

I very much think like you. Comparing the foreign influence in Turkish and Finnish has surprised me. It seems that behind influence that causes syntactic changes there has to be more than usual cultural contacts, more like a symbiotic relationship. One explanation is in the development of written Finnish which for a long time followed Swedish models but I think there is still more to it.

The interesting thing is we are still not bilingual. The second national language is a foreign language to most Finns.

You notice it in a small scale when you put a child into a foreign environment. The words change quickly because she learns easily. The grammatical structure of the mother tongue stays. The result is a funny combination of homelike grammar and alien vocabulary.

Why do you mention Yavuz especially? (Curiosity...)

Because many of Turkey´s current minority and religion related problems can be traced back to him. He is regarded very highly by conservative Sunnites and hated by everyone else. To some, he was the Stalin or Hitler of his time. He sowed the seeds of hatred in Anatolia mass murdering tens of thousands of people.

I see. I knew Yavuz was a murderer but I thought it was more like the spirit of the time.

I have been trying to create a basic picture of the Sultanate after Fatih but my problem is I read Turkish so slowly I have no chance to practice any kind of source criticism. It´s just my luck what ends up in my hands. But I have noticed the articles I find in the Internet are often controversial. There is the official truth plus several inofficial ones which with some luck you can find in newspaper columns or history forums, if you succeed to avoid all the pure fiction which is available.

There is a very strong rumour about the Ottoman Empire having gone to Jewish hands after Kanuni. Some even say the Empire was exposed to a Jewish complot. I don´t know if these texts are based on serious research or if they serve certain purposes. And if so, whose purposes?

It´s always easier to blame the Jews... anti-semitism is reason enough.

Dear Abla, that rumour is lacking so much believability. In other words it sounds like one of a conspiracy theory on Ottoman History.

ottomans sometimes worked with jews, greeks, armenians... that doesnt mean ottomans are under their control. many sadrazams, prime ministers of that time was european origin. ottomans was not a national empire, as long as someone is useful they used him!

about yavuz sultan selim, only shia (turkish alevi) people hate him. he was in war with another turkish sultan called shah Ismail from iran. he defeated shah ismail. since that time, shia people always talk about him badly. yes he was quite tough as most of the sultans. some people from anatolia supported shah ismail at that war, yavuz got very angry and was cruel to those who supported shah ismail aganist him. btw, shah ismail was a fanatic shia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_I

  Yeah, knowledge is power. Here is what he said on the reason for 1939 Erzincan earthquake. Enjoy it and for more follow the link below. 

 First Question: More distressing than the material disaster of the present severe earthquake are its immaterial aspects; the fear and despair at further earthquakes is destroying the nightly rest of most of the people in most areas. What is the reason for this terrible torment? 

The Answer, again in regard to its Meaning: It has been said that the drunken, licentious songs, some of which were performed by girls, being broadcast rapturously by means of the radio during the tarawih prayers of the month of Ramazan in every corner of this blessed centre of Islam resulted in the torment of this fear.

http://www.nur.gen.tr/en.html#maincontent=Risale&islem=read&KitapId=456&BolumId=8502&KitapAd=The+Words&Page=185

There is a very strong rumour about the Ottoman Empire having gone to Jewish hands after Kanuni. Some even say the Empire was exposed to a Jewish complot . I don´t know if these texts are based on serious research or if they serve certain purposes. And if so, whose purposes?

That eventually brings you to 1915, that unfortunate Turkish- Armenian fight in Anatolia.   Turks lost their essential ally in Anatolia and Armenians lost their political standing, wealth, homes and many lives. Both parties lost; Anatolia bled and lost power.

Guess who was the winner ? If you seriously think about my question, you may even find some clues as to who organized (manipulated) the fight in the first place.....

If I say "the Young Turks" movement will you hit me?

No, not if you know what you are talking about.

Hint: Check how relatıons between Young Turks (IT) and Armenian groups like Taşnak started, developed and ended up... 

I may have misread your message barba. If you mean the winners were YOUNG TURKS, you are wrong. Ataturk, who eventually got the the upper hand in Turkey was not very close to them at all. All anti Armenian leaders of YT were later killed by Armenians and that movement largely died out, at least politically speaking.

By the same reasoning, only Jews hate Hitler. The people Yavuz killed were people like me and you. That is a very big problem in Turkey; if the victim is a Kurd or and Alevi, people say they were only Alevites anyway. We must hate this person for the blood he shed no matter whose.

True every sultan, king or czar shed blood. We must consider things without forgetting the time reference but even by this definition, there are monsters that history has recorded. I have no love or respect for them. They are kind of responsible for the conflicts that are still claiming thousands of lives each year.

Shah Ismail was a Turk and shared the same culture with the most of the Anatolian population of the day. Ottomans turned their back to Anatolia, disdaining Turks. The palace had set their minds to Mecca and were making plans to spread the Sunnite belief and placing themselves as the center of the Islamic world. The Alevites were an obstacle and therefore expendable. We still see this today. Most Sunnite (so-called) scholars consider Alevites as some sort of perverts. Stories are made up and spreaded among Sunnites despising Alevites and their belief.

Shah Ismail was a renown poet and a humanist thinker (let´s remember the time reference again). He wrote under the nome de plume Khatai (Hatayi) meaning: one that errs.

Look at this list:

http://www.sabah.com.tr/fotohaber/yasam/bizanstan_kalan_son_eserler/23850

All churches from the Byzantine period have been changed into mosques or museums. Right?

Might be not all but most. At least they are used for the similar worshipping purposes. They would use them for unrestpectful purposes or destroy them but they wouldnt, that is a good point. Also mosques should be always clean. In hagia sophia the figures on the walls were not destroyed but covered with plaster many centuries ago.

After the otoman period some mosques used for unrestpectful purposes inside and outside the country such as barn...

An old mosque from armenia: