My boyfriend is saying that he want to come to my place with somebody and ask me to marry him or it is the first visit.And he was saying something about the coffee that the girl should give to the guests and for him visout a sugar?????? Can somebody please explain what will go on?

Many thanks

Its called "Kız istemek" here.

Boys parents inform girls parent at first. For example they can say "We want to come to your home tomorrow for an auspicious work." And generally girls parents says "Ok, ok. Pls come in" And after that inform girls parents starts to work immediately. Because they have to clean the house, organize something etc.

The other day boys and his parents come. They have to bring a bouquet of flowers and a box of chocolate. And generally boys and his father and girls father wears suit. And the girl wears a good dress. And mothers too.

After their comings, firstly they generally speaks trivial things. Meanwhile the girl have to go to the kitchen and make Turkish coffe for everyone and then she have to serve herself. (Its the most dramatic scene )

After Turkish coffe or meanwhile drinking it, boys father start to speak. Sir, our coming reason is known. Our girl and boy love each other. So with Allah's order and prophets agreement, we want (request) your girl to my son.

And after it, its girls father time. He can two alternative. First he can say you know our girl is so important for us. And he can ask abouth boys job, earnings etc. And then he can say Teens love each other. What can i say? May it be auspicious. It means everything is ok.
And second alternative means no. In this case girls father have to say its reason. Our girl must finish her school first, etc etc. Or girls father can say no with an angry way.

It has some more details but its ok for you

Good luck

) Wowww!!! Sounds funny and interesting )) I start to feel myself like a prize ) ... But if I am the one who decide what to do with my own life what then?

And he also wa saying something about the sugar? What is it about? What does it mean?

Tnaks in advance )

Yes you can decide your own life but you know its just tradition.

I dont know sugar. Maybe you can serve sugar (chocolate, lokum etc)

Yes, I agree, plus I like the traditions ... I wanted to say if I have not have anybody whom his parents can address ... what to do in this case?

Oh yes sorry

Your friend maybe, your relative maybe or if there is no one you by yourself. There is no problem.

I believe with the sugar he meant that the Turkish coffee has to be made well. I mean, there is a certain way Turkish coffee should be made AND look. It cant be all fluffy and foamy, but totally foamless like nescafe isnt correct either if i remember.. So the girl has to make the coffee perfect. And if his father loves very sweet coffee, she should add 2 spoons/lumps of sugar to his coffee in the cezve?

I thought there wasn't really such a thing of Kız istemek anymore, or mostly informal and without the coffee

No its still alive Thx to God

But just formal yes but with Turkish coffee ehehe. But still alive. Its a culture
And some of them arent formal

By the way perfect Turkish coffe has foam all of its surface

I would never see that happen to us, though it would be rather cool and Id like to say that my Turkish coffee is not bad for a starter either hehe.

But as my lovers parents didnt do the Kız istemek (çünkü onlar kızı istememişler ), he just took her

Maybe cause you are foreigner. So they just respect your culture and traditions i thougth and dont need that.

For example my cousin married with an USA girl. And so we didnt do Kız istemek too

After kına you can immediately clean your hand so no problem ehehe but be careful do not catched

No if you apply it on your hand it must be there somemore time otherwise it cant give its colour to your hand. So if you wash it immediately it will be nothing to your hand. But if there is kına colour in your hand its too late you must wait and see

My dear Friends,

I am so thankful to all of you and your idear for it. Actually this Forum I start to like more and more

Thanks a lot again

Your welcome

I got engaged to my fiance (Yilmaz) in December and we had this ceremony. It was wonderful and I did feel like a princess. His brother-in-law acted on behalf of my father. We (my fiance and me) are both older and that is how his brother-in-law stated it. That we were older, and could make our own decisions and decided to marry.

My fiance's sister had her engagement ceremony two days before, and it was wonderful to be a part of. It also got me prepared for what to expect for mine.

Now, regarding the coffee thing, I know that my future sister-in-law put salt in her fiance's coffee (this was on the advice of his friends). We wanted to see if he would drink it without saying anything. He didn't. I forgot to do it when I served Yilmaz his coffee.

I love tradition and it meant a lot to me to be a part of this Turkish tradition. I hope to introduce Yilmaz to some of my Italian heritage traditions.

Goodness we didn't do it because I couldn't make turkish coffee if my life depended on it We just had an imam nikah and nothing more because I didn't know anything about traditions at the time, but I'm really regretting that now. Inşallah we'll do the whole thing when it's time for resmi nikah.
You have to do the kına gecesi it's so nice!

Interesting thread.

Could anyone explain a bit more about the Imam Nikah? How is it done? What is being said? etc.


Thanks

concerning the coffee sugar, i watch a tv series called ihlamular altinda and in an episode there was kiz istemek and she served everybody perfect coffee but she served her fiance or her husband to be turkish coffee and she put salt instead of sugar and they told her if he drinks it he will love u 4ever and ul never be apart something like that i guess. its a tradition

.

dramatic

my couzins henna was just last night and the same exact thing happens here in egypt. but mostly when the parents come and stuff without the kids knowing each other its arranged or they dont know them and just wanna get married most of the time the two fall in love and ya da da .... and then the boy goes and tells his dad i fell in love with this girl and..... and he tells the girl that hes coming on a certain date and the parents call the parents and the same thing happens. And then theyre called fiancees and they go out with each other everyday to get to know each other better (even though most of the times they already kno each other) and then they get married!!
and the same thing with the coffee but nowadays its easier to serve sometimes tea sometimes sherbet. But its almost exactly the same thing they even say the same stuff. BUt i really liked reading about that salt thing i would do it to my fiance!!

oh yeaha nd remeber that cousin that i said her henna was yesterday today was her wedding ( i just came back!!) and guess where shes spending her honeymoon?? yes u got it!!! Turkiye!!!! oof shes so lucky!!

I just came back to USA from visiting my boyfriend in Antalya and Istanbul. He wants so much to marry me, but his father is so angry, and says he will not give permission for his son to marry me and the only reason is because i am American. We are 28 years old, so what the heck is this all about that being adults we would need his father´s permission?

My boyfriend and I are heartbroken, because his father has never met me, but does not want his son going to USA. that would take time anyway due to marriage visas needed. I would gladly live in Turkey as long as my boyfriend and i can be together.

My boyfriend never wants to upset his father, and says well, if he left and married me, his family would not speak to him ever again. Just to please be patient and he will talk with his father more.

This is tearing us up so much. Especially since I am learning turkish, and i am a good, repectable woman, who does not deserve this pain and heartbreak.
Hope no one has to deal with this heartbreak like me.

 i am so sorry actually i had similar experience with my turkish family but after they met me and my boyfriend didnt change his mind about our relations, i arrived to Turkey and they needed to accept me, as they needed to choose - lose son or not.For now our relations are perfect - even better than i had ever with my own parents.Maybe try to find some chance to meet them and try to prove that their son will be happy with you good luck!

Mnemr I know very well what you are passing through, parents always wants the best for their sons but sometimes they can be soooo blind ... be strong and very patient. I wish you all the best!  Iyi şanslar!!!

 Hopefully your boyfriend will be man enough to stand up to his parents and make the decision that is right for him.  If his family will never speak to him again because he marries you, oh well consider it their loss.  Doesn´t sound like a family I would want to be part of anyhow.

Dear Heartbroken: my heart goes out to you! Is your boyfriend financially dependend on his father? Is your boyfriend´s income sufficient to support you? You did not mentioned the opinion of your boyfriend´s Mother and siblings. They should all meet you before they judge you.

Best of luck! Hang in there!

İts not just a financial matter Ros,its about respect and family ties there

Even in the Stats,from what i hear,its much better to have parents approval too

So maybe when she go there and meet her,and see how their son is happy with her,they will welcome their union.

Thanks everyone that posted.

I did not get a chance to meet the family.  After Eren was called home to deal with his father, i decided to go back to USA.  Eren´s older sister is ok about me now, but he is still facing problems with his mom, but mostly his dad.

He does work, but he has a debt to the bank to pay off before we would make engagement for marriage.  I work, and have savings to live there until his visa would be ready if he wanted me to.  It is all about not going against his father.  I do not know if he will be man enough to stand up to his father. He is so angry right now  for the control his father has on him.  He says he will speak again to his father, and said he will make a decision, will I wait him yes or no.  Of course I said yes, because he is my heart, love, and life.

I am learning the language, and doing everything he asks of me.  We made plans to open a cafe already.  Everything to be successful and to show his family we are happy and can make  good life.

I feel in the next few days that he is going to chose to honor his father, even if it means he will never get to be with me.  He was crying on cam last  night saying 1 hand there is me and him, but on the other hand is mom and dad pressuring him.

Heartbroken in Oregon    

that is so  sad, i hope he can persuade his parents really........

How old is he?

he is 28.

How long must i endure the silent treatment.  He now does not answer my sms, to know if he is ok and what decision he has made to continue a relationship with me.  He fears his father, and i have never met his family, so i just want to know if this pain and heartbreak is worth the wait.  2 days ago he asked me to give him time to again speak to his father and will i wait for him.

Of course i said yes, but now I do not know what is going on, as he will not answer my sms because he said if he does not answer it is because he is not alone. He has to beg to leave the home.  I guess he is not ready to become a man.

Oh I hate this!!!!

As you know, I am all to well aware of the situation with this. I can tell you this, the wait can become lengthy if you agree to keep waiting on talks with his father, It just may never even happen that he has the strength to have a conversation with his father.

You need to set a time limit on how long you will wait and stick to it. I have to wonder though with him having talks with other girls and things if it´s even worth a short wait.

I do wish you the best, but urge you to not waste a good chunk of your life in this, you are young and even though 28 years old makes you an adult, they still see him as "their son" and might not be willing to accept that he is able to make his own decisions. Don´t be a "me".

Thanks.  You are right.  I gave him time limit.  When I was there, he adamently said there is no other woman, and I know from his actions and eyes, he is telling the truth.  This is very difficult for him too, as he has never had to face a life changing experience, and have his family interfering.

I am trying to honor his request to give patience.  So only some time more will tell.

He is very upset about this, and I know he is sincere.  I just wish and pray that parents would not do this to kids.  I do not have any answers.

Have a good day.

 ohh yes this is right if he drinks, it means that he´s ready for anything else and loves you till the end.. it´s just a matter of fun of course...

TRADITIONS:

Unfortunately, Eren ended it with me last night due to his father.  Eren is not able to stand up to his father, and he had no choice but to tell me how much he is crying, how much he loves me, and hurt that he can not be with me.  He says if i had stayed there in Turkey with him, then he would have been able to take me to his father and convenence him.  i had to leave.  I could not bear the thought that if I stayed there, that Eren would suffer because of me.  i thought leaving was the best thing to do.

I am in so heartbroken, Eren wants me to not forget him and give him time to let his father forget about me.  Eren is to weak to deal with a controlly, and physically abusive man, that does not see his son as adult.  That is the Turkish culture though.  Respect your father, and get permission to marry since it is a life changing experience.   

There is no way i will forget him, but I do not want to go weeks and months with only chatting with him via msn and knowing he is not going to bring me back to be together.

I know now, this is so difficult for us, and  only pray we can get through it.  I hate this so much. How can a father do this to his son. take his happiness away.

Mary

Well Mary this sounds like a classic example of culture differences.  I know parents are protective and only want the best for eachother, but you do have to live your life for you.  It´s even harder when two people are in different countries, I´m sure he has fear of leaving Turkey as you have fear leaving your country and family.

But love knows no boundaries and when two people are meant to be together they will.  I think he will one day regret not standing up to his father.  But I would say to you, there are plenty of fishes in the sea and you should move on.  Go on with your life and if he still communicates with you, then fine you decide if you want to keep up the communication.  But don´t linger around in hopes that he will stand up to his father.  Time is so short, so don´t do like many girls do and get false hope.

Look towards your future and make the most of it with him or without him.

Good Luck..

 İm sorry tea,but i cant agree with most of that...maybe the main idea i can agree with,but other than that...im afraid NO.

Culture differences here can be seen in the ways,not in the results,meaning...

Parents approval is very important..VERY much important too,and one should NOT take such an important decision without their approval

Marriage is not just 2 persons fall in love and be together,is 2 families,2 situations...ect

BUT....and here is a very HUGE BUT....

That does NOT mean,he or anyone just wait and marry the one his family is picking for him especially if he loves someone already !

Maybe its ok,if he dont has already one in his life,so they interduce him to someone,he meets,talks,likes,then want to marry her

İn that case it maybe acceptable,but other !

Parents know better,and they always think they know better,maybe thats true in some stiuations,but in this one,marriage,he also should know the better for himself

İm sorry mnemr ,i maybe harsh some what in my opinion,but i come from similar culture which tea is talking about,and i know it when its a culture differences or just a personal weakness !

Cultural differences says...he MUST take his parents approval,he feels it even inside himself,he wont accept his marriage untill they gave him their approval

Personal weakness,when he just gave up simply because they didnt approve !

His parents ´father´ will always see him as his little son,who need his protection...thats right,thats all fathers do..BUT also,his father sees him as a MAN,his boy who became a man and can depend on himself...

So,sooner or later,if he really see,and feels that is what his son wants,he will agree,he will accept

He wont gave up easily and says ´im crying,im devastated,my dad didnt approve! ´

Man give up only for one reason ´decent man´ when the girl says,stay back ,i dont want you anymore !

All parents try to control their sons/daughter,his father is not one in a million,but they succeed only if sons/daughters let them.

They try to do it for the best as they see,sons/daughter job is to make them see what is REALLY the best for them.

And here again is the cultural differences,we try to take their approval over our choices...but we DO make those choices

Who doesnt,has only him/herself to blame.

So dear mnemr,if he couldnt fight for you,and get you NOW....then you better off without him NOW and LATER !

İts long life,its not just about getting together...how about later ?!

I think both Teas and Canli have good points .  I understand what you´re saying Canli , that a man is not worth waiting for if he isn´t prepared to fight but in this case I think Teas has a point about the possible future.  I say this because, as I read the story, I understood the circumstances to be that the man´s father is violent and stops his son even from leaving the house. 

I also understand what you say about the culture and the command parents have but, unfortunately parents aren´t always right or well meaning.  Who know if these two people are right for each other but it´s a shame they didn´t get the chance to find out.  It´s a pity there wasn´t a meeting but that´s in the past now. 

I can understand the parents´ fears and also the needs of the couple.  I think traditions are changing slowly but surely in Turkey and it is hard for all the generations to cope with and perhaps  these tug of love situations will become more common. 

Just some thoughts on the situation.

  İm sry PC,but no one can stop a GİRL from leaving the house if she wants to,even in our cultural too

For God´s sake the man is 28 yrs old !

İm sry,but i find it a bit hard for me to understand !

 Thats exactly what im NOT saying...its not a matter of cultural,the cultural part is,we  must,should,try have parents approval...but personal choices is,we make our choices...

İf you noticed,i said,must...then should...then try..

Meaning,if a man wants to marry a girl,and his father doesnt approve ´usually her father is the one who doesnt approve in similar stiuations not the other way around ! ´

Never the less,so the man tries by EVERY mean to convince his father,try to get all the family to be on his side,speak to the elders of the family,uncles,grandparents,aunts,mother,sisters,brothers....ect

Really by EVERY mean...then if it didnt work,and the man REALLY think that is the better for him to marry that girl,then he get along with his choice,and marry that girl,and always try to make his father forgive him because he didnt follow his orders even if it took a life time ´cultural thing here ´

Thats the last step,but thats how things works

Surely there are some men,who gave up on it...

Thats what i meant,if he didnt get her now,so she is better off without him now and later.

İ know its hard,im sorry for that,i wish you all the best mnemr, you did nothing wrong,if he will get you,and manage to be with you,he will do it,even that you have left...and you can always come back to Türkiye when needed.

My two pennies

Sorry Canli, I didn´t read your post carefully enough about the culture issue.  I understand what you are saying and you have a point.

About his age . . .  I don´t think we know enough about his home circumstances to judge him for not making his own mind up.  If he is living with violence, it may not be that easy.  There are many adults all over the world living with domestic violence, children, women and men and it can take many years to gather the courage to escape.

Perhaps I´m being too soft

I am a bit perplexed about what you are trying to say to be honest canli.

you are saying that ´Parents approval is very important..VERY much important too,and one should NOT take such an important decision without their approval. Marriage is not just 2 persons fall in love and be together,is 2 families,2 situations...ect´

what is a marriage got to do with 2 families?

why parents´ approval is so important that one should not take that important decision without their approval?

Well, for the sake of respect, you tell them that you found your love and will get married but you are talking in a way that their approval is a must. And it is part of ´our precious tradition´.

Your parents will not live with your husband but you will..

That man is an example of a typical man raised up ´without a character´ because of his parents´ traditional values, which in Turkey we are trying to get rid of.

And I am sure you know very well that "we must,should,try have parents approval...but personal choices is,we make our choices" is not that easy..They will do anything from refusing you as a daughter to emotional blackmail.

When you put ´we must´ into that sentance you have no choice..

This is a cultural part which played a huge role in that guy´s life and the entire  thread is about cultural differences..

İ agree with CANLİ.Man should be MAN in situation like this (in age close to 30 when i think is the right time for creating a family and live his own, adult life).Maybe just this guy is not right one - as it is to hard to make his own decissions and be in charge about his and other persons life.İt is much easier to give up and put the blame on something or someone else.Wanting is in 1st place and the rest is just obstacles with what he should fight.İf love is REAL-- only thing what can stop lovers is rejecting from beloved.İf woman is ready to sacrifise all her life and leave everything behind in the name of love (even more - she feels guilty about spliting family,but her beloved didnt say anything about her family and their reactions), he should do the same.İ am so sorry again that life is not always giving everything so easy.But maybe it is better, who knows...i wish the best and still believe that everyhting what happens is just next step forward to something much better...

i agree with both sides.... from the modern perspective, of course it is for the couples to decide whether they should get married or not, and not for the parents to choose...

however, some of turkish people are still VERYYYYYYYYYYYY TRADITIONAL. it´s not something that you can easily change. it´s this contradiction between the modern and tradition that, i think, confuses the situation. a lot of young turkish people are willing to explore the modern way of approaching marriage or relationship. but there are still some turkish people who have a hard time letting go of the values that their parents taught them.... like getting their parents approval of marriage...

i remembered a story here, not so sure if i still remember it right. but there was a family with a daughter, who was more open to modern living, liking having sexual intercourse even before marriage. but when the father found out, he killed her daughter for this, and his brothers were told to dispose of her body somewhere.

see how difficult it is? although there are loads of turkish people who are open to modernization, family and tradition is still holding them back, and we, who are foreigners to their tradition, might not know what this families are capable of doing to their children, if they didn´t OBEY and follow the values in which they have been brought up.

it´s easy for us foreigners to judge what is right and wrong, according to our own perspectives and beliefs, but it doesn´t necessarily apply to all.

İ didnt think such question would be needed to ask,for the answer is very much obvious

The fairy tale that,prince charming will come over his white hourse and take the girl away and live happily ever after has proven by time its just a fairy tale.

That version of ´what marriage got to do with family,im the one who is going to marry not them ´ became even an old one at the West

People there found out that,after they got married to the one they want,they STİLL want to have their families,even when they were young and immature,thinking that,´we dont need them any more,we can make it alone by ourselves´ they found out even they can make it,STİLL they need their families

İ dont believe i need to say why !

So yes,my parents will not live with my husband but i will.....but STİLL,i want to live with my husband between my family and his,accepted and loved

So actually,not everything traditional is bad,not because its tradition,that we must stand against it.

We should know better,we dont need to start from where they started at the west,they  have problems there,and many,we can be more smarter and start where they have ended

Again,not everything happen you blame it on traditions,traditions not all bad,and also not all good,but saying you are trying to get rid of traditions,you will only have yourself to balme !

İn the West,the ones who gave up ALL their traditions good/and bad claiming that its an old thing ,they try to maintain them again,and its not easy,if its impossible to do in whole society

That man is just a weak man,cant make his choices,nor decision,and that has nothing to do with traditions,he only uses it as an excuse,something to blame !

We have same traditions here,but as i said normally it be the girl´s problem not men,i mean in some cases parents dont approve,and girl struggle to have their approvals,not the other way arround!

İ saw 4 close examples,2 happned 30 yrs ago,and 2 happend 10 yrs ago,i can say parents were right %50...and the men were MEAN,and the other 2 were good than they can ever be

STİLL,it wasnt easy,and i never said its easy to have all what you want,those girls struggle to do what they want,to marry those men,and at same time have their parents approvals,in those 4 cases,some manage to have it before marriage,and even parents were happy about it,some manage to have it before marriage and parents were NOT happy about it,some didnt have it,and manage to have parents forgivness after marriage.

İn 4 cases,parents support those girls after marriage,as any family do,in good and in bad,and even when that bad was the choice those girls made,parents also support them

Because that is what families do...stick together

Actually,if you want,you can pay the effort,and make the desicion you want and also have parents approval...it has nothing to do with cultural,its all about personality !

But to blame it over traditions.....that is just an excuse .

PS: You is generally speaking

to JUSTİNETİME.İ agree with you also.But from this point i think also turkish guys who knows their families pretty well should think before get involved in relations without saying what kind of dificulties they can face.İ mean there is no secret that all these interenet relations sooner or later will end in a one or other way and before to start them,it would be great to think what they can do with other person lives (in this case those women who is going to Turkey blinded with empty promises and after suffering because of dumping with some excuses).it is not fair anyway.so before jumping in to foreigner bed they should think at first what they really want and what they are doing.

Of course we dont have right to judge just share opinion.And of course we should respect also other culture and traditions (i really do, just try to see diferent angles too).By the way - i think some time ago i heard that in some traditional williages women who has been raped need to get marry with guilty person...İs this true?

It really doesn´t matter whether you agree with my post or not, Canli.  It was directed towards Mary and it was encouraging her to move on.  But like everything else here, it has to be a debate on who is right or who is wrong. 

 What do you mean by guilty person?

You mean the one who raped them ?!!

 yes.İ heard this from one turkish guy who shared traditions in seminar...

I totally agree handsom.

i´m not fully familiar with turkish traditions... sorry

 İ dont know about the raping thing...

But i know,if they find out about relationship between girl and a man,then they force him to marry her.

But rapping ?!!!!!!!!!

 yeah... this sounded for me also the most scary thing for a women that´s why i want to know is it true or not.

oh yes... i am aware that if both girl and boy were caught or were found out having sexual relations together, they are forced to get married.

i also heard of another "rumor" not sure if it´s true. that if the girl was pregnant outside of marriage, and the parents of the guy don´t like the girl, the girl is forced to have an abortion.

from this point they should force to marry all those foreigner girls with whom guys had relations - to be fair.

i hope they will force my BF   

Am I understanding correctly you think marriages should be forced, including yours?

i think she only said that, because she wants to be married with her bf. maybe she thinks that if his parents found out they are really "involved" with each other, his parents will have no choice, but to let them get married.

 nope i am for love -  not for having forced marriage. just having fun as i found this as mistake in the situation what we were talking about - family dont let son to marry girl who he loves, but in the same time if they were caught having sexual relations, they should marry each other...

that´s all

İ think she said that because she was joking

Also refering that many Turkish guys are involved with foreigner girls

 it was a joke i have really wonderful relations with all 4 my parents (real ones and turkish)and we are planing weddings no matter what

don´t worry.... we understand it´s a joke.

 Yes!!!so many turkish guys have relations with foreigner girls - if they have sex - they should marry them!

If you have sex, you should marry? Isn´t that a bit an oldfashioned idea? OMG, suddenly I realise that then I won´t have sex anymore the rest of my life because I absolutely do NOT want to marry!

i am so sorry that you will not be able to have sex anymore of course not - but from all posts - it is conclusion and solution for broken hearts...

I dont think you should be sorry for her as she has already decided to be a nun!!

Good for her and good for the rest of the men population.

Only loser seems to be here is Heinz as she wont need to buy any more vinegar from them.

 For you I´ll make an exception: I will keep buying vinegar.

Awww...Thank you..

I knew I was special for you..

Ok everyone, I am sorry I made such a huge discussion here.  Sorry that other people were getting upset.  I thank everyone who shared their opinions and concerns, and greatly appreciate it.

I am going to move on.  I will not wait to see if there is communication from Eren.  I can see he is not the one for me, dispite that we were physically together for 6 months.  He is not going to be able to stand up to his father, so that proves to me that I will never become his wife.  

I have suffered enough tears and heartbreak for 3 weeks now, and really, I do not want anyone if i can not have Eren, but i will not be weak and let his father see me down.

Just hope no one has to go through this like I did.  And I wish things would have turned out differently.

Take care all.  There is no need for me to be a member of this forum any longer.

hmmm... i don´t think the discussions are upsetting anyone... it´s just a very interesting topic to discuss.

as for you, i´m sure you can move on. it won´t be easy but i´m sure you can that doesn´t mean you have to stop using this site though. how about the friends you made here? still it´s your choice

Mary, you didn´t cause a huge discussion, this is quite normal here. Don´t think you did anything wrong. And why should you leave? You can stay for other reasons than Eren. Think about that please. I wish you strength and good luck in the future.

I can see the angle from which you are coming from Canli. Somehow, you don´t want to say anything to your traditional values.
First of all the definition of the traditions:
"The elements of a culture passed down from generation to generation, originally without the need for a writing system. often orally."
I am sure you would agree with the definition.
But you also have to realize that most of the traditions were invented for one reason or another, often to highlight or enhance the importance of a certain situation. AND THEY CHANGE.
Lets take this tradition of letting elders make the decisions for their children.
A few generations ago obtaining the knowledge was more difficult than today as they did not have easy access to written material or they did not have tvs or radios or Internet. The knowledge was passed orally by the knowledgeable elders as they lived more than the youngsters. it makes sense for its time..
But, is it the same today? a 17 years old kids almost has more knowledge than my grandmother because of the information they have access.
So the question comes then why do you need the approval of your elders? It did make sense generations ago..But what about today?
I will deny that my grandmother or my mother or my father has more knowledge than me. (same thing will happen to me..My children will have more knowledge than I have..That is the rule of the nature).
Why do I need their approval from my parents for my marriage? (I did not ask their permission btw. I just said that ´it is my decision´ as far as my marriage is concerned)
Basically, what I am trying to say is this..
Most of the traditions were invented for a reason. When that reason goes away, the tradition got to go as well eventually.
So don´t stick to the traditions as if they are the ultimate way of living rules..

The only rule which does not change is the rule that ´everything changes´. If you need to stick to a rule, stick to that one.

Some philosophy here a little bit
According to Nietzsche "sorrow and loss which is linked to trying to keep tradition can be avoided. It is weak to claim that your imagination is the only truth. That could get you destroyed. A strong person is someone who is ready to change in order to avoid self-destruction."

There are good/harmless traditions, bad traditions and ugly traditions. (Honor killing a tradition for the example of ugly ones.)
As far as that poor Eren (mnmer´s bf) is concerned, He is the product of a ´traditional upbringing´. I am sure from the early age, they made all decisions for him and told him the virtues of ´listening/respecting to elders´ and told him that ´he will be a bad boy if he does not listen to their advice´.
The result? a young man without a character. Phew!! (He is not a rare person btw..There are many like him)

 Well,then where i came from some how we managed to make our own decisions,have our own choices as we want,and worked this out with our traditions too,accourding to you,then its something you need to do it where you come from

Btw,those 4 cases i was refering to at my above post about the girls,are in my family,so i guess yes,we do have more than just a saying to our traditions !

Handsom,have you REALLY read what you just typed ?! 

Do you know how many men,families,...ect follow traditions back in Türkiye

Do you understand what you are saying ?!

Actually,i find myself dont agree with that,i know many Turks who are capable of making their own choices and make their families/parents agree with them too

Even they follow traditions too,but that didnt stop them!

And about why when you are going to raise a family,family support is important...you can search that,and will get many researches from the West,not from our old traditional points of view !

Ps: needless to say you is generally speaking

I am not so sure if you really believe in your heart what you are saying..

You, a person saying that your parents approval is a must, telling me a character that her decision making is even done according to approval of your family..

Think about it..Even when you were thinking to make a decision about your husband, it is more likely that the first thing you have thought that how your family will like him or not.

If they said ´no way´ I wonder what you would do?

I am not an expert in your culture but it is better if we dont try to show everythin as a rose garden here.

Many of the girls and boys sticking with traditional values, end up doing what their parents want them to do and optimistically believe that it was their choice.

I know what I typed there. Dont worry..I will defend everything up there if you come up with a credible critisisim

I am Turkish..Are you telling me that I dont know my own country and its traditions?

yes to that question too..I do UNDERSTAND what I am saying..I wrote it in the first place.

and what is wrong there according to you?

.

I am raising a family here Canli.

Look, even traditional values you grew up with made you think that your values are the only way to raise a proper family!!you can not comprehend that they might have been wrong..or there might have been a better way..

This is sad..

İ said must,should,try

Meaning....must,is the first thing im thinking of,it wont take much thinking to know,when im marrying the one i want and when my family are accepting it,it will make ME more happy

Then,if they dont like him/her...then i should have their approval ´meaning keep trying to have it till i persuade them ´ then i get married

Then if they still dont approve,and i REALLY believe he is the right one for me despite that,then i marry him...and keep trying to have their approval even afterward

And thats when i refered to the 4 cases and i explained about them...thats actually happed not theoretically speaking !

Well,actually no,but what you are saying,that ´im sorry but thats what it means´ Turkish men are weak and they cant make their own decisions because most of the Turks do follow traditions !

You are Turk,but it doesnt mean you know all Turk also,as i edited in my post,i do know many who follow traditions,and also have their parents approvals ´blessings´ on their doings not just for marriage issue.

Actually handsom,its not my traditions,its readings in other societies stiuations.

İn the 60th they were supporting the ideas that ´ we dont need anyone except ourselves,we dont need our families no more....ect´ 

But later,they start to support and increase the family values,and how important it is ,and how familes should stick together

And that happened because of many social diseases.

So its not something me nor my cultural responsible about.

İf you read my previous posts,you would see that i said,not every tradition is good and not every tradition is bad

But we cant just throw traditions just because they are traditions,and i also said,you wont be able to maintain them back

We can see other people´s experiences and start from there,we dont need to start from where they started,we can be more smarter than this.

So, actually you both agree Neither of you would be put off marrying someone that your family doesn´t accept. I agree that parents´ consent is a good thing to have but it´s not a key factor. Also, I think that wise parents never give the "either us or him/her" ultimatum. If they do perhaps it´s best to rethink your relationship with your parents. That of course doesn´t mean parents cannot have a say about your relationship. My grandma had a cunning way with my mom who had a boyfriend far from where she lived (about 600km). Fearing that my mom will marry that guy and move to the seaside, my grandma offered her a ...tv for breaking up with him It can´t have been true love as my dad is from a place only 60km from my mom´s home Apparently bribery worked in this case

I lived in Turkey for five years. In fact my wife is Turkish. I saw lots of things there--regarding romance, I would urge any girl to be careful. I have seen and heard of girls giving money for cafe´s and business. They never got married and they never saw the boyfriend again.

It seems to work well when a foreign guy marries a Turkish girl. But foreign girl and turkish boy relationships seem dogged with problems.

For your own sake, do not part with any money. I don´t mean to be harsh, but I feel you will lose it all.

 That´s interesting advise.. Thanks for sharing your experience.

This question isnt about marriage but the thread is called traditions, so i was wondering if it is a tradtion that when somebody dies, they put thyre shoes outside the door???Dont laugh ut i saw it on tv!!!!!

 Well said

 why would not pair Turkish guy-foreign girl work well?

Because of all the prejudices that many Turkish men have against women .  While a man is fairly indepenent and can pretty much do the same as a European man, women (in rural areas) still live in very traditional roles, so therefore there are bigger differences between them and European women.

He will probably marry you for money (with maybe a bit of love!) but when the gloss rubs off would resent you if you were not a virgin when you married, would miss all the traditional things that other Turkish wives do for their husbands (cooking Turkish food, cleaning, childcare etc.), and sometimes merely for your lack of "Turkishness"! However, the biggest difficulty would probably be his jealousy.

I guess you stand a better chance of it working if he is from Istanbul or maybe Ankara and is has a good job and is financially secure.

Speaking from my own personal experience, I absolutely agree with this statement. 

 Thank you for the answer! As you may understand I m not Turkish. though it would be the same in my country as well. I think rural areas are pretty much the same everywhere. Two different cultures - City and Village. Nothing offensive in my words, though. I spent almost all my childhood in rural area and know how it is there. Thus, i think it is not the case.

Is there anything else? I mean smth more specific, absolutely Turksh

I´ve heard about Turkish Jealosy .... but maybe it inheres to all Southern people and nations somehow or other, doesn´t it?

You mentioned "Turkishness"... What is it like? I recognize foreighners in  my country by clothes, type of faces (though, i came to conclusion that there identical types of faces in all nations, countries, continents, and possessors of the same type all over the world have analogous characters) and smiles. What do you put into definition?

 Can be woman finacially secure in Turkey on her own?

 Of course!!!!  Our comment was rather more directed to financially DEPENDENT MEN!!

Quoting Umut_Umut

Yes you can decide your own life but you know its just tradition. I dont know sugar. Maybe you can serve sugar (chocolate, lokum etc)

 The idea is when the boy comes (in the old times, the girl and the boy wouldn´t know each other, and it would be their first meeting).. the girl serves the Turkish coffee with sugar if she liked him and would like to marry him.. if not, she would serve it without sugar or with salt..

 she decides at moment when she sees him first time...... each country has its own "Russian roulette"....

Do you know that our body decides at first 20 seconds when we meet somebody first time, whether we will like him/her or not.

 That is what we call an arranged marriage..  I know for sure that in some countries, they don´t even see each other until after they sign the papers..

And you know in the old times, even in Christian societies, nobody used to go to bed like today.. so in that sense, it sounds okay.  the only difference, we still have it

 yes, i do though rare girl can relax at such emergency situation and listen to the voice of her subconsciousness.

moreover, as i understand no matter what her decision is parents are key-people...

 i know the person whose marriage was arranged. She  became widow quite early, though never remarried because she fell in love with her arranged husband....

late christianity valued chastity a lot. in fact now even in america young people are coming back to chastity. dialectics is still alive )

 My grandparents were both born in a small village in Italy.  There marriage was also arranged.  They were happily married for 42 years.  I always remember how much they loved eachother....but I think they were somewhat of an exception and not a rule. 

As far as chastity in America....there are many young people who choose not to be sexually active.  I personally feel this is the right decision....however, I firmly believe that it is a choice and should not be made out of fear of retribution from your family.

This is what I love about you -- you have your beliefs and preferences, but you repsect other people´s choices. If only everybody was like that too...

Really? In which period? Pagan times were full of sex and so were the beginnings of Christianity. Actually modesty and chastity are the invention of 18th/19th century and only the middle class would keep it. Both poor and wealthy would have sex all the time (clergymen too).

 This is completely true

 Yuuuuuuuup

 Do you have any confirmation for "all the time"???  

I do not know those centuries well but from the impression I got, I think it was rather reserved to the poor if any.  There were some sex affairs going on, but it was done in secret and it was frown upon.

 actually a bit earlier... soon after Columb discovered America. He brought syphilis to Europe and church should do smth to protect people. Before that pictures of sex and sexual orgies illustrated Bible.

and BTW poor people are more conformists....

 Are you kidding?  I have yet to see a very confirmist queue at the benefits office

It was standard practice among the rich certainly - you married for money or position, and took lovers for fun.  Everyone knew about it and it has happened pretty much throughout recorded history.

As a matter of interest, one of the most conformist eras in our history was not Victorian times but in fact the 1950s.  Maybe because of this, many people who were teenagers around this time thought that sexual freedom only started in the 1960s. Those 50s teenagers are todays middle aged moralists who think they represent a bygone era, when in fact they only represent their teenage years.

Alameda, when were you born?

cultures, standards of judgment, traditions and law lead and  rule people; and  you think, behave and speak according to these norms in your countries...

"kýz istemek" is an important Turkish tradition and maybe it is a legal/important/global tradition for every country.

Huh?! "kýz istemek" according to my limited Turkish means "wanting a girl" how about erkek istemek? And why the heck should this be a legal (?!) tradition in any country? Unless, of course, you speak about countries where, say, homosexualism is forbidden or punishable. Then kiz istemek is a legal requirement indeed

Haha

Now you are making me laugh (and preventing me going back to my work too )

´Kiz istemek´ should be translated as ´formally asking to the girl´s parent permission to get married´ actually..

But I agree, it sounds like ´asking for a girl like asking for a cup of sugar or salt from your neighbour´.

But we dont have ´erkek istemek´ as a tradition..

Do you want to start it by ´asking for an erkek who is handsom and a bit hairy and ...´?

 And?......

And married?

This is ´sheer form of discrimination against married men´.

Married people are humans too you know..

DD. please ignore her...

 Not at all - it was simply an innocent guess at what the next word after "and...?" would be

You know i have no idea what this has to do with traditions but ti was the closest thng lol.. I was wondering how do they like fall in love in the rural areas in Turkey? You know this sia very weird question, but lol ill show you what its abit like here... its oin this song lol, i dont know why i love this song really, i love the way she talks like a baby lola nd the guy look exactly like a guy we have at school! I swear he looks exactly like a guy called khaled!

lol, the song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIq-xC9CDmg