Hi all,
I am asking this question about a very important time in my life with regard to the title of this message. I am English and I am Christian although I am not a regular churchgoer I am engaged to Nesrin of course who is of muslim faith. I want to ask some members here how each family of different faiths feels about the marriage of two different religions and cultures. I would like to marry in a christian church in England and have discussed this with my local vicar but I also want to ensure that Nesrin is happy with the type of wedding we shall have, we both respect each others faith and both are not devout followers of our religions although of course we both respect our different faiths and both of our families. I want to do the right thing when we decide on where we get married, I hope some replies will help me with this subject especially people who have the same sitaution as myself and Nesrin.

First congratulating you,Second, you must be mutual respect for each religion, but the important question here: your children will follow any religion?

Hi Love this one's tricky,so you are Christian and she is Muslim?As you probably know in Islam it is not allowed for a Muslim women to marry outside of her faith,whether you are strict about faith or not,it is still very much frowned upon, both by Christians and Muslims,I know I've suffered at the hands of both in this subject,maybe it is not that important for you both and I hope everything turns out well for you,however could there be complications later on?For example between yourselves how will your children be taught,with regards to religion?Has your family and her family agreed that this is ok?Does she fully understand Chrisianity?Do you understand Islam?
Difficult subject mate and I'm sure there are better people on here that could explain the differences better than I.
Anyway I hope things go well for you both.
All the best.

In fact, your relationship and decision of marriage already reveal all, that religion won't be a big issue in your marriage.with mutual respect and dialog you can solve the religion problems between you. Hasn't she already proved it to you by being with you(if we consider that it's rare that a muslim girl marries a non muslim boy)?

But I'm not sure if each of her family members will be happy of being in a church marriage. Probably they will feel themselves a bit weird, they are not used to it and maybe some of them won't be ok with it. You have to talk over it I think.

Hi Loveprague,

Yilmaz and I are in the same situation. As you know I have met his family many times, and can only speak on how they have handled the different faiths. Yilmaz's family is very accepting of me and my religion. I am also accepting and respect Yilmaz and his religion. I am Roman Catholic and went to Catholic school and was even going to attend a Catholic college. My cousin is also a priest. Although currently I do not attend church regularly, I have no intention of changing my religion, and Yilmaz has no intention of changing his. My situtation may be a little different, as I want to get married on a beach and not in a Catholic church. So, I don't have the problem of having Yilmaz feel uncomfortable in a Catholic wedding ceremony (however, we did talk about it and he would have been okay with it if that is what I wanted)

The most important thing is for you and Nesrin to talk about it. Let her know what will happen in a church ceremony.

So to sum up, it is really something the two of you need to discuss openly. Address any questions or hesitations Nesrin may have. I am sure you will both reach an agreement you can both be happy with.

Best Wishes,

Lovebug

hi , mylo
you are right, that i wanted to say , but i said in my mind, i must congratulate them, then say that
maybe family of your Fiance didnt know well how is the marriage be between islam and another religion

Compromise by having a Turkish wedding and an English wedding. Teach children of the union both religions and lets them choose when they are old enough in.

Best wishes to you both for your future life together.

I am a christian, and my religion is very important to me. I go to church every week, pray at meal times and bed time etc. My husband is muslim though. When you feel all the romantic exciting feelingd of love and butterflies, it can feel like as long as you love eachother everything else will fall into place. Real marriage isn't like this though. That's why I love that you are taking the time to think about things responsibly. As far as my husband and I work it out, we respect eachothers religions. My husband prays with us for meal times etc. comes to church when theres something special on. On the other side, our son was circumsised and doesn't eat pork. As Christine said, it takes comprimise. Teach the kids what you both believe in and they will choose for themselves after. Although just be aware of how strong your religion is to you and her because it will hurt emotionally sometimes to be with someone or have your kids not believe the same things. But seems to me you and her are very much in love and very mature about the relationship in discussing your future together, i have a lot of respect for that.

Hi Mylo,

Catholic weddings take about 1 1/2 hours (give or take). You have the Catholic mass which is approx. an hour and then the vows. Depending on what other things you may add (some people incorporate extra readings, lighting of a unity candle, etc.) So it just depends on your particular ceremony.

Have a great night.

Lovebug

Hi Loveprague,
I pretty much agree on what Christine said....

''''Compromise by having a Turkish wedding and an English wedding. Teach children of the union both religions and lets them choose when they are old enough in.'''''


I think that if you guys love each other very much and respect each other's religion everything will be ok. Its not bad idea for your guys to have two weddings or even get married in the beach!
I have a friend who has been in that situation or worst. She is not allowed to talk to her friends from church, not even her family, appearently she got expel from church because she was in love with a sweet muslim guy and they both got married... but you know what??
She is with the love of her life!!
She goes to church sometimes but when she is there, her husband is with her,right my her side

Discuss the issue with your fiancee and things are going to be ok! Im sure ya can find a solution that you guys can be happy with. When theres love between two people anything is possible.

Best wishes,
Latinyer

In my opinion, wedding is not the biggest problem. Think more about your future life, eg. children. Do you want your son to be circumcised? Does your love mind if your children is beptised? Will your children able to choose their religion later, and do you mind if they choose Islam?
For me, choose both catholic wedding and Turkish wedding. Turkish weddings are great - especially if family gives you lots of gold

Helloo.. Well I myself have been raised in a fmaily where my mother is christian and my father is muslim!! Religion has not ever been a problem within my family at all.. I know the two religions but no one in my family are deeply religious people. My parents decided to make me christian it has not been a big issue for me to be christian.. I dont follow that religion much! I infact follow and am interested with the muslim faith more than christian faith.

My parrents got married and have kept their faiths, they marrried in a freinds place with a celebrant leading the ceremony. Both are happy and still very much inlove, so i guess loveprague as long as you love eachother you can work something out!

the best of luck to you

i think all religions order love to everything and everybody,so i think ''love''is the base of all beliefs.And i think faith differences only a sweet diversity in the ''love,respect and tolerance ocean'' ..)

i believe that all the beliefs the different paths to arrive same point,and the target of all believes to creat more peacfull,loving ,tolerated,justly...etc... societies.So don't think so faith differences can be barrier for any path ,if ur way to target

Beautifully said, MrX67!!

i think we all have some red lines about interpreting life,but when we delete this red lines things become so nicer and easier.And pity still planty red lines between different cultures and thats make smaller and smaller a great life garden,why we prefer to smaller one while a larger wonderfull one waiting us out there with its all charm

As with all relationships mutual respect for each other and most important good communication and compermise are paramount. Whether the two people involved are of the same religion,culture,nationality or any other combination does not matter,because without any of the above any relationship can fail.

We have always learned that we must respect each other, It doesn't matter in wich religion they believe.
We never go to the church, but that is a choice. But I'm interested in all religions. But my parents they didn't found it important, they always say ; Believe in yourselve and mother nature. We can make choices, but we cannot make dessions for you.

Best wishes for you,
Greets Mirjam.

'The Kingdoms all inside'

its not me its mylo kazpol but he is right i think

Can I ask first about her families opinion? How do they feel about you? If they are fine with it and so are the both of you just don't stress to much about this thing "religion".

I believe that you cannot be "half" religous. It's almost as if people say they have a religion thinking that "just in case, i want to be safe and say i believe in something". SO if neither of you are "practicing" then you do not "have religion" and cannot boast that you do, so it doesnt really matter. If religion is not an "issue" (between you two) now why should it ever be? Good luck!

dear serdar ,
i saw too there is contradiction between your saying :

in Islam's principles acording to Koran and other texts: Islam's woman can not ( forbiddin ) to marry a man from another religion he must be Muslim first and then the marriage is lawful otherwise it is an illegal marriage relationship. This is bare fact you can find in the Islamic texts.
and your saying :
Anyway I hope they think much more about love for colorizing their life with happiness and do as the painters do adding more nice colors than thinking about the differences in nationalites and religions.
maybe i didnt know what did you mean in the last syllable
thanks

Most of Turkish men in Turkey are muslim. But just with saying so and getting circumcised in childhood. Otherwise, they live same as any other faith( may be less) But for families, still important to know their son in law is muslim. You are having a circumcision and live as you live now. Neither church nor mosque If your parents be upset about it, reconsider that, but I am pretty sure Nsrin's family will ask you about become muslim. Christian woman, muslim man is ok. but opposite is not. If this is just about ease the parents no harm eh?

If he didn t care about the parents, he would not ask what to do. He must know what Nesrin thinks about the issue, he is asking what muslim "families" thinks!

ı wish real life would be that way. When you marry you are accepting his/her family, relatives, past, pets,habits, etc. Love can not bear strong differences forever. In some place, gives up. If you dont want this happens to you you have to soften the edges between you and her/ him.

Religion is important to a lot of family's,especially Muslim family's,maybe it's not important to some but for others it is very important,this religious issue is over inflammed in my opinion but that doesn't mean that we can't have respect for other peoples beliefs,like seker said 'The Kingdoms all inside' thats enough for me but maybe not for others and thats fine too,this could go on for some while i think and one more thing where are you loveprague?you started this thread I think you should contribute?

I wouldn't believe that i could write this much about my girlfriend/husband,when i was going through a rough time with my Husband i wrote nothing here,especially on the forums,I don't understand why you always need to post messages about your love life,if you needed help with Turkish or English that I could understand but to constantly go on about your love life is not right.People are arguing about your posts and you dont contribute to them to give your side of the story,this is not right,you should keep your private life to yourself,if you need to share your thoughts do it privately,that way no one will enter arguments like this.
Hope it works out well for you both,i've said my piece.

Hello,
Thanks for everyone who took the time to reply to my post, as I have had internet connection problems for sometime now I cannot reply as often as I would like to. I would then take the time to write carefully a reply to all the members who have kindly written here to this very important subject.

Firstly on this subject I would like to address the many different views and comments of the members on T.C. I do read everyone carefully and understand all the complications and issues here so I will begin my reply. I have now been with Nesrin through two years and we are both happily engaged we both have the upmost respect for each other's family and religion and culture. I was baptised in a christian church but I am not a regular churchgoer and although I do believe in god I do think that I should have the chance to talk about why and where we possibly could get married. Nesrin has just visited myself and my family this was her first visit to England and it was very beneficial with regard to her meeting my family and seeing my country. We both visited the church of our choice and discussed a christian wedding which will possibly take place here in England. I have the upmost respect for Nesrin and her religion and of course her family we have the blessing so far from her sister Nilgun and nephew Ali. We are both very much concerned more with our future and where we want to be in a few years time, I am visiting her in September to discuss this issue face to face with her mum and from now to then I will respect her mum's wishes on this subject.

The main thing about this subject of course is religion and culture with myself a non practising christian and Nesrin not a devout muslim, that however we both follow the faiths we have been brought up with and repect and understand them, I personally want only to do the right thing here whatever is possible and with the blessing of both of our parents, we are both the people who will be making this decision about our future but we want this decision to be fully appreciated and given blessing by both of our families, I do consider myself a good man and have no problem with doing the right thing by Nesrin and that is marrying the woman I love. I want only to illustrate here that love happens between two different cultures and faiths and however many people tell us their own opinion it will rest on our decision the outcome.

Loveprague Aferin sana

why do you insist on marrying in a church if you are not a practicing christian? My mother (christian) and father (muslim) were married in France but they did not do a christian marriage nor a muslim marriage. It was completely a secular marriage
Though I guess church marriage is also something traditional nowadays in UK.

Strictly speaking, no muslim lady can wed thru procedures other than those specified in Quran. On the other hand no non-moslem gentlemen can qualify to be a active party to an islamic wedding. Hence marriage of a muslim lady to a non-muslim gentlemen is not possible under normal conditions.

The only pragmatic solution to the problem our friends are facing, lies in creating emergency conditions.

What you need for this scenario is a cruise ship, with Nesrin as the only muslim on board (no other male muslims, neither as seamen nor as passengers).

Should the need for an emergency wedding arise, as soon as the ship hits high seas - the ship`s Captain must be the only available person capable and authorised to conduct and register the wedding. Captain`s own religious beliefs (or the methods he employs) can hardly be questioned or critisized under the prevailing emergency conditions, and in the absence of any muslim gentleman (alternative) to conduct the wedding.

Believe it, or not !

alameda,
im not the one whose marrying, but thanks anyway for some morales.
yeah, the west is bad, is so bad that many people from the east line up in km to the west countries embassies to get visas. the west is bad, indeed! dont follow the western style!
btw, loveprague, where are you both going to live after your wedding in uk or turkey?

social pressures the biggest barrier about the meeting cultures,and this pressures pity more then others on some countries,and pity thats one of less of our country.i don't say that for judge our people,sure there r many reasons which creating some strong traditions.And i think many of us have some big social phobias,and faith is one of em.But when we think about that a bit more secualar and tolerated,things really become easier.Sure not easy to change customs,beleifs or traditions in a short time,but i think things will be better in time with the more communication between different belifs and cultures.the best fix for communication,more understandting and a bit more objective thinking...

I think we make the topic complex sufficiently ,
Good luck loveprague, go onnnnnnn

Thank you for quoting me twice .

"My dear", you ARE talking about marriages where there is no romantic love but is solely on both parties being "suitable" and accepted by both families involved. If that is not "arranged" marriage, then I would like to know what is!!!! I am filling in no "lines" by merely stating that while you see this as ideal, it is actually this very culture that breeds mercy killings. That's a fact!

Yours statement:
"It used to be that one looked for a suitable marriage partner rather than falling in love. Many don't like the idea of falling into anything" is very weird. When did "it used to be" the case? I love your words "inflamed with passion of romantic love" - are you living in the 1800s or from the Mid West or Utah(Salt Lake City???!?!)

Thank you for your congratulations on my parents marriage - I am sorry you don't deem 40 years long enough yet to fit your description of "successful" but unfortunately they have not lived long enough yet to meet your exacting standards. My grandparents however married for love also and celebrated 60 years of marriage (unfortunately one of them died recently, which probably you would see as one of your failures!!!!!!!)

You see many marriages of love that end in failure? Well, I see many carefully considered, cooly calculated, unromantic family approved marriages that were absolute hell! And...how the hell do you have sex on a regular basis with someone you are not in love with?? Maybe thats not a problem for you...

Parents would have to be very selfish to be against a marriage where both partners are deeply in love.

Yours statement
"The tradition of bringing someone home for the Holidays to meet the family is alive and well. What do you suppose the purpose of such activity is if not to secure family approval?"
Approval?????? My "purpose" would be nothing more than for everyone to meet and get to know eachother.

I find your ideas cold, calculating and very "prim" indeed!

Having just read your views on "living together before marriage", I now realise the extent of your outdated, sexist views!

i believe a happy and healthy society only possible with strong and loving families,but pity youth prefer to live together or a short time marriages,i think most of people thinking marriage as a game,really sad...

I understand what alameda wants to tell and I agree with him/her. Though I'll make more contribution to the thread tomorrow
The others who oppose to what he says must have read too many princess/prince charming love stories.
He hasn't said that we should make marriage without love, he said we shouldn't make marriage just because we are in love. There is a big difference.
I have heard too many love marriages, where the charm disappears after some months, and then they are left with nothing. The compatibility of families is one of the important things that supports a marriage because it's the major thing that makes our background.
.
.
.

In this world, you reap what you saw.Culture and tradition lead a society.A society is led by culture and tradition.
If the social structure of a society isn't homogeneous, lack of harmony, confusion and conflicts appear.The average cultural level of the people in this world is very low.The biggest war (struggle) in this world is the war fought against low cultural level and ignorance.These are
proverbs.As a result, marriage between two faiths depends on intellectual minds.

marrying " just for love" is not as simple as it seems. You have to have a reason for loving that person. when u ask somebody why u love that person, then the real reason surfaces. For some people love is compatibility. You hear a lot of people in love saying i love him coz we share the same likes, same outlook in life, he/she makes me laugh, feel secure, beautiful, special, etc, he/she's responsible, financially secure, etc.

This is personally speaking. I was born and raised a Catholic. I am a practicing Catholic. My family is the type who goes to Sunday mass everytime. My brother is a leader of a Catholic community group. Before i got married i told my family that im marrying a guy with a different faith (Islam- a practicing one). I felt its important for them to know and for them realize its my decision. Its not a without question, without doubts kind of talk. But i made a decision and i want them to know because they are family, they are important to me and if something unfortunate happen to the marriage( knock on wood) i know that they will support and be there for me.

No marriage is "simple". Whether you have that passionate love or not....it takes a lot of work!

What exactly is 'love' ?

Not many 'love's are endless, or for eternity.
Why do 'loves' end? What happens when 'love' ends?

What happens in the rare cases, when the 'love' does not end?

English seems limited with the single word 'love'.
What is the difference between Turkish words 'ask' and 'sevgi' ?

Aşk is loosing the natural and real world and building a fantasy instead! you can't be in Aşk without loosing the pows that you always use for owning your partner and without loosing the cage you are thinking to put your lover in !

sevgi is hill but aşk mountain
nice words MrX67, im agree with you , so i said:aşk does not pass by any ordinary person and it is highest degree of love

For "ask", there are two sayings in Turkish,

1. "Ilk goruste asik olmak"....Love at first sight (instantaneous)
2. "Askin gozu kordur".........Love is blind.(no logic)

Could "ask" be higher in hierarchy ? If it can start almost in a second and has no power to see or rationalise ?

I understand sev to be the state of love that longs for the beloved.

Aşk is the state of beloved fusion....the merging together into one....loosing oneself in their beloved.

This is a very vast subject. One that has perplexed mystics, intellectuals and philosophers for millennia.

FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love

Wow - this conversation suddenly got dull....is there a "yawn" smiley?

Topics get very dull when Foamy_Femme leaves them

ASK and SEVGI may both carry sexuality....There is also a lower form of sexuality which can losely be called "casual" or "circumstential" sex.

Please dont try to sound smart...You are way out of your depth..

"DAVUL, DENGİ DENGİNE ÇALAR"...
"DAVULUN SESİ UZAKTAN HOŞ GELİR"...
Bu sözleri anlayabilen birileri çıkar mı bilemem...

Hello everyone,
Sorry I could not reply to each post as my internet has had alot of problems just lately. I am both surprised and also confused at some of the posts here, I have to tell you that I told Nesrin about this topic and she was very upset by some of the comments about marrying a person with a different faith outside Islam. We are both going to do the right thing when it comes to marriage we have looked long and hard and contacted many people about this subject. I think what is most important here is the fact that we are both very sensitive and sensible when it comes to our families and our religions, we both understand about the marriage ceremony and marrying in two different faiths. I am also not just in love and feeling romantic about marrying Nesrin, this time we have had with each other has built over the two years we have known each other, I am sure alot of people have not had a relationship with a whole year getting to know someone and also not seeing each other. We both chatted for over a year before we actually met in person and thankfully that year spent has made great strides to where our relationship is now.

I do however appreciate all the replies here it shows that this subject is a very important one and can be addressed very carefully and constructively however I do not agree with some of the replies here. I will do my best by Nesrin and the most important thing about this is us, of course family is very important and I have always respected this, I hope my next big subject will be our marriage announcement
Best wishes Loveprague

Marriage did not require blessings from religious dignities, at good olden times: There was no religion yet, and people sincerely chose their partners and called themselves married. I have no objection to that.

I have no objection to people of different religions chosing to marry each other - if that is what they desire, so long as there is no fuss made about it.

But people pretending that they are religiosly oriented, yet trying to find ways around the rules set out by the very books they claim to be holy is something I can not understand. Who is fooling who here?

Is there some hypocracy in all this?

These posts seem to have gone Slightly off topic!...

I do believe the original purpose of this thread was to bring about replies of relevance to this-
'I want to ask some members here how each family of different faiths feels about the marriage of two different religions and cultures.'

...I can't understand why some people feel the need to create an 'online battle' of things which are off topic and why some people seem to get so worked up over other peoples' contributions...!

Loveprague, I wish you every success with Nesrin...I think the joining and understanding of two different cultures is beautiful and I wish u both much happiness for your future together!

i wish all the best to you loveprague and nesrin!
im sorry if i was the source of being upset to both of you.
there is one thing i would like to add: 1. if the religion was your sensitive part of life you wouldnt involve yourselves into a different religion. 2. you both are mature adults, so parents or other family members must not be a problem (i mean as obstacles).

just go for it! make it come true! dont worry of anything!
the rest isnt important!

btw loveprague,
i hope you understand that you expect different replies when you start a thread?
better not to start/post anything if you expect only positive answers.

All this is starting to make Femme_Fatal look like a kitten

Alpha and Cirque - be gentleman and go outside with pistols at dawn. Its the only way...

I apologize for the private curses coming to groups attention.

What this jackass can not understand is calling someone "pervert" is a heavy insult in Turkish. I wont bother with him anymore.

Yes, Im well aware of that.

I wouldn't really call that a discussion, appeared to be more like people grasping an opportunity to over-analyse and criticise other peoples comments.

I wasnt referring to people getting worked up about topics-of course one has the right to hold and express strong feelings about a topic.

I was merely saying that it seems like people are always picking at what other people have to say.
But whatever, I won't say too much as it will only result in more unwanted criticism.

Marriage is a sum of cultures. I think different cultures should not argue about marriage. In Turkey most girls like me told before marriage "there wont be any return from your husband' s house to here". This is just a tradition, anyone can divorce anytime. But still society will keeps chatting about the reasons of your becoming divorced widow. Everything you do after that will be shame for your family even if they well educated and supportive. For all that reasons marrige bases are quite different. Families are more involved our marriages. So, we can not see marriage like other cultures do. Not that we dont want to, it is about how we raised, how we treated.

I think you have just shown us how to discuss a subject without being santimonious or opinionated Asli Its great to learn about other cultures this way.

I can't promise I can post in the same unopinionated way I guess that's Aenigma's' Culture'

No men are always in the safe part of life. Society feels just sorry for him because once he had a bad wife.

And mltm yes, my father told me that while he is tying my virginity sign red ribbon on my belt because it was tradition. After that on my 11 years of marriage secretly asked me how am I doing, am I happy, I will always welcome in his house with my two sons if I am not happy. But I am lucky. Lots of girls told this by all means.

Where is your super cool smiley, Mr. Super Cool? When you showed off around here putting a super cool smiley in the end of your each crap, everything was fine, wasn't it? Now listen to me, you senile idiot! To show off at the age of 60 around here is one thing, to have something to say is another. To know the difference between "aşk" and "sevgi" is one thing, to pretend to know the difference and talk nonsense and cause to make yourself call a pervert is another.

Now have a look again at the following:

'calm down dears it's only a commercial'

subject turned into a battleground between members

Do you get off insulting people who attempt to join discusions? The most flimsy artifact is perverted and distorted.

If you read carefully what AlphaF wrote...

Get that qualifier....MAY....MAY!!!....not do.

Sort of like I love XXXXX...it could be a car, cat, person, it could involve erotic tones...OR...it could not.

Quoting CirqueDuSoleil: Where is your super cool smiley, Mr. Super Cool? When you showed off around here putting a super cool smiley in the end of your each crap, everything was fine, wasn't it? Now listen to me, you senile idiot! To show off at the age of 60 around here is one thing, to have something to say is another. To know the difference between "aşk" and "sevgi" is one thing, to pretend to know the difference and talk nonsense and cause to make yourself call a pervert is another. Now have a look again at the following: Quoting AlphaF: ASK and SEVGI may both carry sexuality.... Hehe! Then, in accordance with your love(sevgi) for, let's say, your children or friends or cats, you should be able to have sexual desires (e.g.making love) towards them. Quoting AlphaF: Are you cool by any chance? In accordance with your approaching to "aşk" and "sevgi", you seem to be more a pervert!

faiths great paths when you been secular,en its very complicated otherwise...

mltm my family is living in istanbul over 300 years on both side. My father is an electrical engineer, my mother is a teacher like me and my sister is medical doctor. I think we can count on as educated family on Turkey's conditions.

Have you read my messages? I said he did that because its a tradition, afterwards he always asked me if I am happy. If not he can look after me and my sons. You are searching someone to argue with I think. But I will not be the one. Also even I am not one of them you are assaulting people who left their villages 2 generations ago. Nothing wrong with living or leaving the villages. You want to belong western more but this are the facts that you must have some village on your past.(unless you are minority)Because those are native in İstanbul.

aferin

+2 go Armegon!

"The love between two people who are unequal and inharmonious in cultural point of view, turn to hatred after a certain time.
There is not mutual respect.
Generally people are fair-weather friends.
Even loves that are experienced in good days, are deceptive and false.
In this world you can't really know whether you have a friend or not".
These words are from a novel.....
What do you think about these words?

when you say small cities in Turkey, there are many cities who are bigger than most of the big cities in Europe. City is another thing, village is another thing. In modern Turkey, primitive village traditions should be eliminated. I respect the culture, but urbanization is another thing. Red ribbon that represents virginity?? If someone says that even the educated and cultured ones in cities do this, I oppose. Which educated? Please. I oppose when a Turk shows that Turkey highly consists of this backward things. She shows that she's "modern" and her family is "higly modern" but she's still a victim. Maybe, she can be a refrugee in another country if she thinks that even the modern in Turkey does this. This Turkey also consists of people who have opposed these things, that's what we call the modern Turkey. I do not look down on any village people, but what I oppose here is quite clear I think.

AND I won't say anything more about this, because this has started to go on my nerves. So much wrong generalizations. I wrote everything that should be written, the rest is yours. The one who is willing to understand will understand.

I am witness to what Mltm is saying.

The whole thing is weird.

I would like to inform those who are confused about who talks the truth: Mltm speaks the truth here.

aferin sana , aenigma x...,
böyle güzel konuşmayı iyi öğrenmişsin.aferin sana...
you know too much..
but you dont know courtesy..
you came here to learn Turkish Language...
you dont come here to talk English Language in this Turkish Class...It is your personal duty...
I am not your teacher..,
you must learn "courtesy" first of all.

To aenigma x...,
Yes I should apoligize …
But I cannot uderstand your comments.
Your comments are important to me.
Because I am a technical university student.
It is too hard to learn scientific english in a short time...
Meltem is a good gitrl like you…
Have a nice day, greetings and regards from Ankara.

yes, but this is very important topic and intellectual phenomenon for me...I would like to analze this multicultural phenomenon as my private interest.
regards

Dont tell me my people, "aenigma x". I don't deny anything, I am just stating the truth. What Asli said has nothing to do with the culture of Istanbul, as Mltm stated before. WHO the hell are you to say that I am denying the truth while I was born and raised in Istanbul, which means that i AM the culture of Istanbul? Prove that such things are common in the urban culture of Istanbul, -which clearly you cant- or stop misinforming people!! especially about my people!!!



You just can't accept the fact that modern Turkish urban culture is quite civilized than the middle eastern culture. That's the whole point.



Such "traditions" exist in Turkey though. But saying that It's Turkish culture is something like saying that just because Nazi and white racism exist in some german people that means nazism and racism is the german culture.



This is soo silly.



by the way, who is this "aenigma x" really?

...and Gizli Yuz, DONT send me private messages asking "who the hell am I to talk about Turkey in a bad way".

For the last time - I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TURKEY IN A BAD WAY!

You really are crazy.

(Why not get back to the chat room to talk to a few more girls now )

AS A RESULT, understanding is a precondition for a peaceful friendship in this single planet...

So Mltm also misunderstood the whole thing?

Simply because I dont see anything wrong with them. You must prove what you said otherwise this merely proves my point.

i think thats the latest thing to judge another culture's realities or traditions without don't live it and don't know the long historical and social backround,so always better to trying understand reasons of that,other wise everythings more and more complicated..so cultural relationships needs big patiance and tolerance,may be that takes long time but better then to delete everything after a few words..

to live and to be,the best learning methods,to understand really not easy with what you hear or what you read...

okay I AM writing Mltm's points:

1)I know that this tradition still exists, but do not tell that it exists even in the high cultured families, because this is not the case. On the contrary, such things are seen backward by the modern society in Turkey.


correct.

2)It's quite strange because as far as I know in Istanbul traditions there's not such a thing to tie a red color around the belt of the bride.And this sentence 'there wont be any return from your husband' s house to here' is quite backward for real Istanbul descendants or just for any family who has left the village culture behind at least 2 generations before.
you show yourself a victim of these backward traditions, but I'm quite sure that your family would accept you anytime when you want to divorce and they just care about your happiness.


correct.

3)I understand that it's a tradition, but this is just what I'm asking, which tradition is this? This is not definitely an Istanbul tradition. Can you clarify me because this is totally foreign to me as a native of Istanbul.

correct.


4)ut if you still claim that your fmily is well educated, I'd say that "education" is not only university education. If you and they think that everything you do after divorce will bring shame to their family, their mentality is not modern and they are not intellectual.
Whatever the society thinks, the real modern people do not care. This is what modern turkish families including mine thinks. What I oppose is, you use wrong words which shows that even the most modern in Turkey have village mentalities.

correct.


5)when you say small cities in Turkey, there are many cities who are bigger than most of the big cities in Europe. City is another thing, village is another thing. In modern Turkey, primitive village traditions should be eliminated. I respect the culture, but urbanization is another thing. Red ribbon that represents virginity?? If someone says that even the educated and cultured ones in cities do this, I oppose. Which educated? Please. I oppose when a Turk shows that Turkey highly consists of this backward things. She shows that she's "modern" and her family is "higly modern" but she's still a victim. Maybe, she can be a refrugee in another country if she thinks that even the modern in Turkey does this. This Turkey also consists of people who have opposed these things, that's what we call the modern Turkey. I do not look down on any village people, but what I oppose here is quite clear I think.

CORRECT


shortly,

enough is enough.

And here's what I wrote about the issue before:

I am sorry Gizli Yuz, but your posts only proves what a BIG DEAL Meltem has made of Asli's post!!! The fact is, that Asli said that this 'red ribbon' tradition did happen in her family and that yes, they were cultured and educated. Its a fact, so why try to tell her she made a mistake?! It may be rare in Istanbul (or Paris, where Meltem lives ) but the fact is, it happened!

Meltem IS a paradox and contradicts hereself frequently.

QUOTES FROM MELTEM:-

LIBERATED AND LIBERAL...

'Given that I'm one of the most liberal and least patriarchal girls living in Turkey, in my opinion you can never get any support from women that you aim to help. You expect people to change in an instant after telling them 'you are all wrong and all the things you believe are wrong'.
then on another day..
'..anyway I think marriage is not a good association for you at all because marriage is making sacrifices to your man and giving away a bit of your freedom which you consider as weakeness.'

ABOUT TURKEY...

'Maybe, she can be a refrugee in another country if she thinks that even the modern in Turkey does this. This Turkey also consists of people who have opposed these things, that's what we call the modern Turkey.'
but...
'Turkey is a very beautiful country, but it is not a fully developed country, so be aware of the problems (all kinds of)....'

ABOUT VILLAGES..

'I do not look down on any village people'
but
'In modern Turkey, primitive village traditions should be eliminated.... What I oppose is, you use wrong words which shows that even the most modern in Turkey have village mentalities.'

ABOUT ISTANBUL...

'The people and the atmosphere really changes from quarter to quarter. It's a city of contradictions and extremes(poor, rich; ultra religious, ultra liberal) that consists of all kinds of people from all around Turkey. They are the buildings who are very quickly put up without permission by the immigrants that come from other cities. They're usually poor and ugly districts, they should be destroyed'.
but then
'It's quite strange because as far as I know in Istanbul traditions there's not such a thing to tie a red color around the belt of the bride.And this sentence 'there wont be any return from your husband' s house to here' is quite backward for real Istanbul descendants or just for any family who has left the village culture behind at least 2 generations before.
you show yourself a victim of these backward traditions'


Which 'truth' from Meltem are we to believe?

"aenigma x",

what are you talking about! for heaven's sake! this is getting more and more weird. We are talking about asli's story and mltm's response to it, and the culture of Istanbul. What you wrote is just irrelevant. I cant believe this, God why me!

catwoman, when I sent a pm to mltm, she said that she would contunie replying because she thought she had to present the true image of Turkish people, which i agreed. And I thought later that I had to defend my people and their culture. Seeing your posts, Mltm was right that we have to protect the true image of Turkish people here.

And no, I don't have to be the lawyer of her to agree with her. She just speaks a very fundamental thoughts of Turkish people, which is the main reason why I agree with her, and which is the truth.

the only fault I have here is being a Turk.

"Gizli Yuz"

You dont understand my point. And after, hell...10 posts (I am too tired to even count! ) you still don't understand!

Why I should have imagined that someone like you can listen to any other point of view, is beyond me.

Your only fault is being a Turk? I would not say that is a fault. I have many Turkish friends who do not share your arrogant, fundamentalist views. I think you should reconsider your statement..not only are you shaming all Turkish but you are underestimating the number of your faults!

I said I agree with Mltm that what Mltm wrote about Asli's story is true. And I stated all points Mltm made about asli's story. And if you remember, you just said "what the hell are you talking about" in the first place, the whole story began with it.

I proved that Mltm was right in this thread, -which is obvious by the way-. And you couldn't disprove it. Just sent a irrelavent post.

The only reason why I agree with Mltm here is because I live in Istanbul and I know the reality in Istanbul. This is what I meant by "the only fault being a Turk."

You have many Turkish friends who share WHAT? My only view here is that I strongly disagree with Asli. So you have Turkish friends who experienced the same thing as Asli did? What is it meant?

Please, let this be the last conversation we have THE POINT IS how can you both "agree" or "disagree" with a Asli's post? She was talking about something that happened. Fact. Why would she lie? If I said "yesterday I went swimming" - you could not argue with that statement!!!! Dont you see? Its a fact, so how can you disagree with it!

You posted Meltems comments and stated they were "true". Actually most of them were Meltem's OPINIONS! Everyone believes their opinions are right, but...true? How can opinions be true! The reason for my post was to show you how Meltems opinions change so frequently that its impossible to give them any credence.

Again you missed my point about my friends (I am getting used to it!). You mentioned that your "only fault" was being a Turk (great comment by the way) and I was (trying) to explain that you are talking to me as if I know nothing of Turkey or its culture and that I certainly do not consider it a fault. My Turkish friends don't "share" or have anything in common, other than that they talk honest and openly and we can have interesting discussions where we exchange our views, NOT the kind of narrow-minded paranoia that you spout!

Sorry. I proved that she couldnt state what part of Mltm's posts are wrong regarding the Asli's issue.

Sorry. I proved that she couldnt state what part of Mltm's posts are "exaggerated and out of all proportion!" regarding the Asli's issue.

There's really something wrong going here.I started to doubt if I use bad english.

I understood your point aenigma very well, so do not torture yourself anymore about it, and give a little bit of that effort to understanding my point.

Your point is "I claim that Aslı lies"

No, I did not ever claim that she lied. I just said that she did not have the right to make a statement like "most of the girls in Turkey" and "even the educated and cultured ones in Istanbul". Everyone is free to tell their own stories, but no one has the right to make seem the well-educated, modern people of Turkey live with backward traditions and believes. If I were not a native, I would start to feel pity for every woman living in Turkey.
I'm not ok with this bull s...

And Aenigma, you think that there are contradictions in my posts, but in fact there's not, but ofcourse I am not going to give an hour for proving it.I'd say the same things.Yes,again, Istanbul is very mixed, and we can find every kind of people, but they are immigrants, and they bring their own traditions from other parts. When we say "Istanbul tradition" it's the native tradition of Istanbul which is formed in centuries.

Thanks for your clarification Meltem. I am happy that I did learn something today. I never before realised that there was such a snobbery in Turkey, particularly Istanbul.

It seems you have to belong to generations of Istanbul residents, be "cultured" and "educated" to be taken seriously and any "village culture" is severely frowned upon and should be stamped out.

Ouhhhhhhhhh! It reminds me of England during the 1920s!!!

No, not just Istanbul but as a native of Istanbul and as Aslı is also from Istanbul, I particularly mentioned Istanbul.
anywhere modern intellectual people exist and that is what makes our country the only secular modern country in the region.