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The so called armenian genocide Facts\accusations
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1.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Sep 2008 Sun 05:38 am

Ok people,here we are

So much talk about the the so called armenian genocide ,so lets try to hear all parts,and try to get the facts...

İf we can !

Whats the armenians claim is well known,so what does Turks say?

 

It´s amazing that whenever the "Armenian Genocide" is referred to in Western media, journalists seem to fall all over themselves in presenting the perspective totally from the Armenian propaganda machinery. Whenever there is an attempt to present "the other side," the passage is usually preceded by "The Turkish Government claims..." Keeping in mind we all know how dishonest spokespeople from any government can be. (And reinforcing the erroneous view that only the Turkish Government objects to the Armenian version of history.)

 

“If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it. Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?” [Gurun, File, p. 37]


2.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Sep 2008 Sun 05:38 am

There were so many Armenians who spoke Turkish, who even conducted their rites in this language , who rose to topmost public service posts such as the Ministries and Under-Secretariats of State for the Public Works, Navy, Foreign Affairs, Finance, Treasury, Posts and Telegraph and Minting. There were some who even wrote books in Turkish and foreign languages on the Problems of the Ottoman Empire .

With the start of the decline of the Ottoman Empire, the European powers began to intervene in its affairs and degeneration became evident in the peaceful Turkish-Armenian relations. Great effort was displayed by the instigators whom the Western powers planted into the Ottoman Empire under clerical guise, to create a schism between Turks and Armenians in the religious, cultural, commercial, political and social fields. Thus, bloody clashes arose, in which the blunt of pain was borne by the Turks, and thousands of Armenians and Turks lost their lives in the revolts that broke out in Eastern Anatolia and spread all the way to Istanbul.

Though there were many Armenians fighting in the Ottoman armies against the enemy or serving in the rear ranks during the World War I, a considerable number had sided with the foes on the battlefronts and launched massacres against the population without distinction of women, children and the aged. Their toll was hundreds of thousands of Moslems and ruin in Eastern Anatolia.

 

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html

 

 

3.       CANLI
5084 posts
 07 Sep 2008 Sun 05:45 am

Some more links,i havent check all the links,but seems useful to me

 

http://www.ttk.org.tr/index.php?Page=Sayfa&No=90

 

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/ermeni_sorunu_salonu/armenianissues_index.htm

 

Ps: Thanks for the help i got.

4.       peacetrain
1905 posts
 07 Sep 2008 Sun 06:01 am

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html

 

 

 

I tried to find out the background to this site earlier, but no luck.  As I said in the other thread:

 

Quote: Peacetrain

This terrible period of history, where there were many tragedies,  has been discussed before it seems  eg.  http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_22961_13

 A few quotes from that debate:

Quote:Kaddersokak

 

Putting ourselves in the other man’s shoes on the ‘Armenian question’

by
MEHMET ÖĞÜTÇÜ*

What a fascinating but equally unrewarding subject to write on the “Armenian question” is. Everything you say will touch the sensitive nerves and deep-seated emotions of both the Turks and the Armenians.




Neither side will be content with your line of thinking. It is dangerous water into which few people are willing to wade.

 

The above is only the first few lines of a much longer post at the beginning of the thread.

Quote: Müjde

By the way,
I dont believe that Armenians in Turkey and in Armenia insist on this subject very much, because they know us very well.I am from a town where many Armenian had lived ,before moving to Istanbul for bussiness.My grandmother and my father have a lot of Armenian friends.Still, we have some Armenian families around us and they are really very nice people.These subject is the problem of just politicians ,who have benefits thanks to the Genocide , not nationalities and History.

another:

Quote: Catwoman

It is clear that this issue is highly politicized and any country´s decision to accept it as "genocide" is purely based on political interests. It is quite a shame that so many Western countries have accepted it as a genocide despite the lack of adequate, objective (done by a third party) historical investigation. But the most remarkable phenomenon is that politicians get involved in this to begin with, and decide on what is the "legal" version of events. 

 

and from Fearless:

Quote: Fearless

As to the truth about this matter, the Armenians killed Turks and helped Allied Countries with the courage they got mainly from the Russians in order to establish an Armenian State inside Anatolia, reaching the Mediterranean Sea , and the Turkish people killed them back. Then they were forced out of the country by military force in order to stop the internal bleeding in the body of the Turkish State which was struggling for its survival. Unfortunately during the journey those who could not stand the extreme difficulties died. It was not a genocide and considering the conditions the Turkish state was in, it was the best and rightest thing to do at the time, as confessed by the first prime minister of Armenia Hovannes Kacaznunni in his report presented in the Dashnak Party Congress held in Bucharest in 1923:
"We mutinied against the Turks. We took sides with the Allies, the enemies of the Turks. What we demanded from the Turks was "an Armenia from one sea to another". We killed and we were killed. The forced migration was righteous and necessary. We could not see the facts and we were the starters of the incidents. The national struggle of the Turks was righteous. They made the Turkey Armenians subject to a forced migration in summer and autumn of 1915. The Turks knew well what they were doing and there is not a matter they should be regretful about. This was the most proper and certain thing to do.

Complaining about destiny and searching for the reasons of disasters outside ourselves is a pathetic situation. This has been a characteristic feature of our national politics which the Dashnaksoution Party was also not able to avoid."

What more is there to say after that?
The book containing this report is first published in Russia in Tiflis (Tbilisi). A censored version was also published in USA under the name of "The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaksoution) Has Nothing To Do Anymore" in New York in 1955.
This historical report is -of course- banned in Armenia. The Dashnaks in Europe also confiscated the books. Translations in various languages in European libraries have been confiscated. The books name is available in the catalogs but the books themselves are not to be found on the shelves.
The Russian issue is still available in the Lenin library in Moscow.

 

Btw, none of the above is meant to give a view either way for myself.  It is very difficult, as an outsider, to know where the truth lies - historians, journalists and politicians are not averse to bias and anyone can find something on the ´net to bolster their own personal view, whether it be pro Armenian or pro Turk. 

 

With regard to the report Fearless mentioned, I found this (WhistlestopWiki I´m afraid) :

Katchaznouni prepared a critical report for the April 1923 ARF congress in Bucharest[1][2][3][4] titled "The Federation Has Nothing More to Do," which called for the dissolution of the Party and Armenian support of Soviet Armenia.[5][6][7] The incendiary claims immediately drew rebuke from the party.[8][9][10] Until recently, the report was best known through its abridged English translation by Matthew Aram Callender, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing to Do Any More and edited by Avedis Boghos Derounian. The translation emanates from the New York branch of the Armenian General Benevolent Union´s Armenian Information Service.[11][12][13] The booklet´s elusive nature can be attributed to the fact that the Congress was "highly secret and closed to the public" with little information about its circumstances being released,[14] and the fact that remaining copies have been systematically expunged.[2][15][16]

Recently, a historian from Istanbul University named Mehmet Perinçek[17] found an unabridged Russian copy (printed in Tblisi, 1927) of the book in the Russian State Library in Moscow.[18] Perinçek claims to be the first person to have entered the Russian state archives (due to a simple absence of applications),[19] and that he has spent seven years studying them.[20] Following the discovery, the booklet was republished by Kaynak Press in several languages.[21

 

 

taken fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovhannes_Katchaznouni

5.       alameda
3499 posts
 08 Sep 2008 Mon 05:43 am

It actually is pretty easy to extrapolate on the events of the time. Let´s look at the time this event is supposed to have taken place.....during WWI, when many millions died.

 

The Western tactic was divide and rule.This is not a wild speculation as there is plenty of proof of this tactic. Gertrude Bell spent years in the Levant and among the Arabs researching who would be receptive to the British, she then turned her research over to Lawrence .

 

One thing that I find interesting is how the number of "genocide" victims keeps growing and growing and growing.A few years ago is was around 200,000 and it has been growing yearly. I believe I´ve heard 2 million recently. I happen to have been following this issue for enough years that the increase in "victims" is quite evident. Just how many Armenians were actually there at that time?

 

What about the Dashnaks and the Hunchaks? These were not a peaceful group of people living in a nonthreatening manner. They were armed revolutionaries who were fighting the Turks. They became allies with the Russians against the Turks. IOW they were traitors.

 

Another historic event of that time was the Bolshevic Revolution. So anyone can see the time was a very chaotic one in which many died.  Another historic event people today don´t seem to be aware of the great Spanish Flu epidemic in 1918 that killed between 20 to 100 million people world wide.

 

The simple fact of the matter is War is Hell. People die during wars, and as we see today, many of them are innocent children....We should do what we can to avoid wars. 

6.       Lane
36 posts
 22 Oct 2008 Wed 06:36 pm

Go, alameda! I totally agree with you. I am really tired of this armenian nonsense and annoyed how in my country on tv they spread that propaganda.{#lang_emotions_get_you}

7.       raindrops
267 posts
 23 Oct 2008 Thu 12:56 am

i have some Turkish and Armenian friends. they told me pretty much the same story, just traded places of Turks and Armenians...

As i know Armenians were lobbying their interests for many years. I am sure Turks should do the same: propaganda, creating good image etc. Armenian are good example of right political behaviour.

Also please take into account that I am not against Armenians, even though my Armenian friend told me: one Armenian guy is the best friend ever, two - nice company, three - gang.... Though they did correct steps to complete the mission. And if Turks want to change the actual state of affairs they should do smth

Nevertheless, just came to mind, that probably Christianity was good additional profit for Armenian side...

8.       Deli_kizin
6376 posts
 23 Oct 2008 Thu 02:25 am

It wouldnt be such a big ´deal´ if the Turkish side would stop denying ANY sorts of horrific acts they inflicted upon the armenian civilians, who had nothing to do with the uprising of nationalistic separists around Van. I have had many discussions with some Turkish friends, who simply deny that huge groups of Armenians were sent into a walk from Kars and Van all the way to the Syrian desert without any medical assistance, security or food supplies. That is just a plain death march. Then it doesnt matter that much whether it should be called a genocide (it was planned, but it wasnt direct murder) or not, or what the Armenians did or whether it was justified from the Osmanic point of view of threatened territorial integrity. What bothers me is the voices of my ´friends´, who REALLY believe that such a thing did not happen. The more they shout it didnt, the more I wonder what they try to hide.

9.       teaschip
3870 posts
 23 Oct 2008 Thu 05:08 pm

Why is there such a state of denial for Turks to recognize the Armenian Genocide?{#lang_emotions_neutral}  Do you think that all these countries who recognize it as a "genocide" are just misinformed?{#lang_emotions_unsure}

10.       si++
3785 posts
 23 Oct 2008 Thu 05:43 pm

 

Quoting teaschip

Why is there such a state of denial for Turks to recognize the Armenian Genocide?{#lang_emotions_neutral} Do you think that all these countries who recognize it as a "genocide" are just misinformed?{#lang_emotions_unsure}

Yes you are. Let´s call it tragedy for being sake at least for now. Then some Turks+Kurds were killed by them. They were killed by Turks+Kurds. And they started it first.

 

I don´t think those who has recognised considered the historical facts. Anyway you are all Christians. That´s OK. Who would you take a side with? Of course with them. They are your Christian brothers afters all, right? You don´t even bother mentioning those who were killed by Armenians at all.

 

And of course this is a part of a big plan to divide Turkey. Let´s assume Turkey has accepted it. Now can you tell me, what´s next? (A hypothetical question)

 

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