Ok people,here we are

So much talk about the the so called armenian genocide ,so lets try to hear all parts,and try to get the facts...

İf we can !

Whats the armenians claim is well known,so what does Turks say?

It´s amazing that whenever the "Armenian Genocide" is referred to in Western media, journalists seem to fall all over themselves in presenting the perspective totally from the Armenian propaganda machinery. Whenever there is an attempt to present "the other side," the passage is usually preceded by "The Turkish Government claims..." Keeping in mind we all know how dishonest spokespeople from any government can be. (And reinforcing the erroneous view that only the Turkish Government objects to the Armenian version of history.)

“If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it. Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?” [Gurun, File, p. 37]

There were so many Armenians who spoke Turkish, who even conducted their rites in this language , who rose to topmost public service posts such as the Ministries and Under-Secretariats of State for the Public Works, Navy, Foreign Affairs, Finance, Treasury, Posts and Telegraph and Minting. There were some who even wrote books in Turkish and foreign languages on the Problems of the Ottoman Empire .

With the start of the decline of the Ottoman Empire, the European powers began to intervene in its affairs and degeneration became evident in the peaceful Turkish-Armenian relations. Great effort was displayed by the instigators whom the Western powers planted into the Ottoman Empire under clerical guise, to create a schism between Turks and Armenians in the religious, cultural, commercial, political and social fields. Thus, bloody clashes arose, in which the blunt of pain was borne by the Turks, and thousands of Armenians and Turks lost their lives in the revolts that broke out in Eastern Anatolia and spread all the way to Istanbul.

Though there were many Armenians fighting in the Ottoman armies against the enemy or serving in the rear ranks during the World War I, a considerable number had sided with the foes on the battlefronts and launched massacres against the population without distinction of women, children and the aged. Their toll was hundreds of thousands of Moslems and ruin in Eastern Anatolia.

Some more links,i havent check all the links,but seems useful to me

http://www.ttk.org.tr/index.php?Page=Sayfa&No=90

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/ermeni_sorunu_salonu/armenianissues_index.htm

Ps: Thanks for the help i got.

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html

I tried to find out the background to this site earlier, but no luck.  As I said in the other thread:

 A few quotes from that debate:

The above is only the first few lines of a much longer post at the beginning of the thread.

another:

and from Fearless:

Btw, none of the above is meant to give a view either way for myself.  It is very difficult, as an outsider, to know where the truth lies - historians, journalists and politicians are not averse to bias and anyone can find something on the ´net to bolster their own personal view, whether it be pro Armenian or pro Turk. 

With regard to the report Fearless mentioned, I found this (WhistlestopWiki I´m afraid) :

Katchaznouni prepared a critical report for the April 1923 ARF congress in Bucharest^[1][2][3][4] titled "The Federation Has Nothing More to Do," which called for the dissolution of the Party and Armenian support of Soviet Armenia.^[5][6][7] The incendiary claims immediately drew rebuke from the party.^[8][9][10] Until recently, the report was best known through its abridged English translation by Matthew Aram Callender, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing to Do Any More and edited by Avedis Boghos Derounian. The translation emanates from the New York branch of the Armenian General Benevolent Union´s Armenian Information Service.^[11][12][13] The booklet´s elusive nature can be attributed to the fact that the Congress was "highly secret and closed to the public" with little information about its circumstances being released,^[14] and the fact that remaining copies have been systematically expunged.^[2][15][16]

Recently, a historian from Istanbul University named Mehmet Perinçek^[17] found an unabridged Russian copy (printed in Tblisi, 1927) of the book in the Russian State Library in Moscow.^[18] Perinçek claims to be the first person to have entered the Russian state archives (due to a simple absence of applications),^[19] and that he has spent seven years studying them.^[20] Following the discovery, the booklet was republished by Kaynak Press in several languages.^[21

taken from:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovhannes_Katchaznouni

It actually is pretty easy to extrapolate on the events of the time. Let´s look at the time this event is supposed to have taken place.....during WWI, when many millions died.

The Western tactic was divide and rule.This is not a wild speculation as there is plenty of proof of this tactic. Gertrude Bell spent years in the Levant and among the Arabs researching who would be receptive to the British, she then turned her research over to Lawrence .

One thing that I find interesting is how the number of "genocide" victims keeps growing and growing and growing.A few years ago is was around 200,000 and it has been growing yearly. I believe I´ve heard 2 million recently. I happen to have been following this issue for enough years that the increase in "victims" is quite evident. Just how many Armenians were actually there at that time?

What about the Dashnaks and the Hunchaks? These were not a peaceful group of people living in a nonthreatening manner. They were armed revolutionaries who were fighting the Turks. They became allies with the Russians against the Turks. IOW they were traitors.

Another historic event of that time was the Bolshevic Revolution. So anyone can see the time was a very chaotic one in which many died.  Another historic event people today don´t seem to be aware of the great Spanish Flu epidemic in 1918 that killed between 20 to 100 million people world wide.

The simple fact of the matter is War is Hell. People die during wars, and as we see today, many of them are innocent children....We should do what we can to avoid wars. 

Go, alameda! I totally agree with you. I am really tired of this armenian nonsense and annoyed how in my country on tv they spread that propaganda.

i have some Turkish and Armenian friends. they told me pretty much the same story, just traded places of Turks and Armenians...

As i know Armenians were lobbying their interests for many years. I am sure Turks should do the same: propaganda, creating good image etc. Armenian are good example of right political behaviour.

Also please take into account that I am not against Armenians, even though my Armenian friend told me: one Armenian guy is the best friend ever, two - nice company, three - gang.... Though they did correct steps to complete the mission. And if Turks want to change the actual state of affairs they should do smth

Nevertheless, just came to mind, that probably Christianity was good additional profit for Armenian side...

It wouldnt be such a big ´deal´ if the Turkish side would stop denying ANY sorts of horrific acts they inflicted upon the armenian civilians, who had nothing to do with the uprising of nationalistic separists around Van. I have had many discussions with some Turkish friends, who simply deny that huge groups of Armenians were sent into a walk from Kars and Van all the way to the Syrian desert without any medical assistance, security or food supplies. That is just a plain death march. Then it doesnt matter that much whether it should be called a genocide (it was planned, but it wasnt direct murder) or not, or what the Armenians did or whether it was justified from the Osmanic point of view of threatened territorial integrity. What bothers me is the voices of my ´friends´, who REALLY believe that such a thing did not happen. The more they shout it didnt, the more I wonder what they try to hide.

Why is there such a state of denial for Turks to recognize the Armenian Genocide?  Do you think that all these countries who recognize it as a "genocide" are just misinformed?

Yes you are. Let´s call it tragedy for being sake at least for now. Then some Turks+Kurds were killed by them. They were killed by Turks+Kurds. And they started it first.

I don´t think those who has recognised considered the historical facts. Anyway you are all Christians. That´s OK. Who would you take a side with? Of course with them. They are your Christian brothers afters all, right? You don´t even bother mentioning those who were killed by Armenians at all.

And of course this is a part of a big plan to divide Turkey. Let´s assume Turkey has accepted it. Now can you tell me, what´s next? (A hypothetical question)

Armenian issue comes here over and over again,what Turks did is wrong in the eyes of westerns but why dont we discuss crusades,Hiroshima and Nagasaki or Vietnam case,not to mention Palestina,Latin America or others?only Turks did someting wrong which is shouted out by Armenian lobby and supporters?only...?????

 Tem, the difference is that we will freely admit we were wrong about those things.  By the way PLEASE STOP calling us Wsterners - we are different countries!  Do you think all Easterners think exactly the same?  You are Turkish not Eastern eh?

 coz freely admitting is so fashionable in Europe?just a new trend?oh ..ooops,right no more calling Brits westerners......blood is thicker than waterbtw..have u been to hamam today?

 Hahah, why don´t we discuss the others?  Well let´s see what is the topic here and why are you so defensive.  Hey I don´t make excuses for "the Indian Genocide"  but at least we gave them "some" of their land back in which we stole.  If you want to talk further about Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Vietnam, I´ll be more than happy to.  But it´s typical that instead of discussing sensitive Turkish issues you want to redirect the conversation.

Si +++  I have a hard time believing this was not a Genocide and the problem by ignoring this fact is another reason why Turkey won´t get into the EU.  By denouncing this to all the families is like saying it never happened.   What your sending is a message loud and clear that it´s acceptable which gives it good cause to repeat itself in history.  Can you imagine if we said the Holocaust was not a genocide, nope it didn´t happen....no maybe you can´t.  I know there are several topics here in TC that we have already discussed pertaining to this topic.

 of course you know everything,better and more and of course ur point of view is better than mine...we have quite a large assembly of those who think they know better and all about Turkey..can give directions and advice...ahhh,Allah...nothing to do for youEuropean and American experts will do the job

I have been reading this article the other day in Turkish

http://www.taraf.com.tr/makale/2060.htm

The title of the article is ´But they were doing it too´

The writer is explaining (In turkish) first how the nationalism works, how it defines itself etc..

Then it gives some examples about nationalists actions (including armenian issue)

and then says this :

“banal” milliyetçiliðin en yaygýn fragmaný: “Ama onlar da bize yapýyordu.”

Ýlk kim baþlattý? Tabii onlar. 

most widespread fragment of banal nationalisms   is´ but they were doing it too´

who started first? Of course them..

OK here is my REAL opinion on this (not my usual fun post to make people angry )

What is the point in discussing this over and over?  Do we want Turks to stand up and say "yes we slaughtered those Armenians?"  when nobody knows the true facts.  We don´t even know how many Turks were also killed.  Even the most respected historians disagree on this issue.

Things are rarely black and white.  Each country has its good and bad.  This happened a long time ago now.  What will be gained from this "apology" generations later? 

We always complain that Turks evade the issue and point the finger at atrocities committed in other countries, but actually.....shock horror...they DO HAVE A POINT!!!  Who the hell are we to condemn a country for something we THINK might have happened?

To my knowledge, there is no official world police

(Yeah I went to hamam )

 not riders of apocalypsa for sure......)

I am copying this from one of my earlier posts:

A translation - Ahmet Altan´s daily column (from taraf news paper)


I know, telling these things are not welcomed in this country but they endured one of the worst sufferings on this earth.
Dont say that ´but they killed us too´.
Saying this is a real shame..
What is and old man from Adana and a baby from Sivas got to do with Armenian mobs from the borders of Russia
Only being Armenian?
Just think for a moment.
When you are sitting in your home at night, your door is knocked and they take you away by force.
You start walking.
In the middle of the night you are forced to walk on the mountain roads with tired crowds.
An old woman is collapsing next to you.
They are hitting her head with rifle butts.
She is staying there lifeless.
They are smashing her crying grandson to the rocks.
Do you think they are just fairy tales?
Has anybody raped your wife next to you?
Has anybody killed your husband in front of your eyes?
Has anybody taken you away while you were eating your dinner because you are a Turk?
But they did this to hundreds of thousands of people because they were just Armenians
We have a conscience we own.
Are we going to sideline ourselves with ittihatcilar (young turks) because we are from the same blood or we will cry to death of a baby from another nation?
Do you now how many Armanians they killed?
Just because they were Armenians.
Think all of them in the middle of the night on a mountain road.
Hungry, tired and alone.
Infested with lice and ill.
They know they are taken to their deaths.
They are taking them to their deaths.
and killing them.
Hundreds of thousands of them!
Is it really important what nationality they have?
Do you really dont feel sorry for these people who suffered this much because they are Armenians?
For a moment, for a short time, you put yourself in their shoes.
Feel that moment , feel that helplessness
Are we going to ignore their sufferings because we are Turks?
...
And us, we even have forbidden their relatives to write requiems  for many years
They lied to us all the time.
They told us "but they killed us too".
There were mobs over the borders with Russia and they killed.
They were barbarians too.
But what have they got to do with women, babies, men and elders from Bursa,Sivas,Maras and Adana?
Ittihatcilar killed them because they were just Armenians.
Forget ittihacilar, and  murderers.
You are closer to victims not the murderers.
Because you are humans.
And now you are going into their country.
I dont know if we can,
but for the old times sake, if some tears come into our eyes and if we can bumble ´forgive us´.
Maybe a huge weight will be taken from our shoulders and may be a reflection of an old Armenian with mustache will smile for a moment in the place where everybody went and we will all go.

officers at  that term saved armenians from genocide. after a big war, they were under danger. and they had to send them another place. it was the only solution. when I think now, it is still logical. of course some died in the way but some stayed alive. armanians show it as a genocide, coz they dont have anything to bring them togather. if they really interested in genocide, they wounldnt do it in hocali.

you must accept that armenian organisations are very powerful in western. what if azerbaican organisations were the same? this shows what world is not concerning about history, they listen what important ppl say.

The world is only concern about itself.Turkey is just an object to blame and there is no Turkish lobby in the world on the contrary of rich,influential armenians one

it seems those lobbies also affect some columnists and writers

 and "intelectual"TCL members..those omni..bla..bla..blacivilised ones...we r still barbarians4´em

Everybody is effected by everything..

I think the important thing is ´living with the truth´

 which truth?yours?theirs?somebody else´s?

well..I am a abit spectical about the truth which was told us by the people who also told us ´there is no ethnic group such as kurds. kurds are mountain Turks´.

We know that they were lying..

he thinks he knows all the truths

Haha

And you know that ´you dont know´. that is a bit ermmm..pathetic

 At least he knows something

haha

We are back to square one boys..

well..as long as you can continue without swearing you are welcome

 boys?did we use to play in one sand box?at least we do not beg mods 4 deleting your posts"

I have to agree with thehandsom here, especially your notion on the reliability of a government that refers to mountain turks and denies them being Kurd. But also partially with Aenigma. Its true, who are ´we´ to speak of those though ´we´ do not know for sure, considering everything ´we´ have done to the east? Really, I have started to believe that the policies of the great powers in the eastern question have led quite much to the disturbed politics of the middle east now and the rise of radical islam as a response to european (disgusting) imperialsm. There we are pointing out how bad TR is. But that doesnt take away the right for a grief to be said out loud. And that doesnt mean there is a division plan Yet, when someone would point me at what my ancestors did, I wouldnt say ´they did it too´ or ´they started it´, Especially the last one sounds like ´they asked for it´.

 Because there is no reason to deletion of his post

Anyway good to see that this is peaceful so far!

must be TCL "gay"in the sense of merry day

ps..dear mods i mean old,forgotten meaning of this wordjoyful,happy,etc....

first off, why did you put the Indian Genocide in quotation marks but not the so called "armenian genocide"? The American Native Genocide was the most barbaric genocide of the History, but it`s not recognized by any country. As for giving them back a fraction of lands the Europeans stole, that`s a huge lie. I see no independent American Native country.

As for the wide recognition of the so alled armenian genocide in the west, do you think those f***ed up politicions who have recognized it even know where armenia is, let alone what happened in the ww1 or how many Turkish civilians the armenian terrorists murdered?

I love your rationale though, I bet you still believe that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction as well. wasn`t it recognized to be true by the west?

as for the holocoust, your argument doesn`t make any sense, because the holocaust was proven in the Nurnberg trials. Is there such a court decision about the so called armenian genocide? if armenians were so confident about their genocide fantasies they would at least sue Turkey at the Hague court. They can`t do that because there is no way they can prove this fabricated genocide at a court whereas there are tons of documents refuting it.

well..if i did not ask them to be deleted, i had to answer them..and only way to answer childish swearings would be swearing and then  there would be a real trouble and then I would accuse myself for being low with the low and then I had to apologise from everybody..etc etc

as you see, it would not be nice really..

 what an act of civilised"mercy"

u have white angels (and one is in red) around you for protecting you from bad things

That is correct "It was a mercy actually"..

 come on.......heheheheheheh ...dont flatter urself

 I would say he has merry house wives around

You probably mean it totally otherwise, but have you got any idea how jealous you two sound

you accept you save him then

 Since when am I an angel or a housewife?

But yeah, I am merry and gay!

now boys

Look, you are getting nasty again!!

When you asked to be deleted, I felt sorry for you..OK?

(and I blamed myself for being harsh on you while i knew you were not a match!!)

But please..

If you are saying something in politics you either write something here you can prove or you can come up with supporting ideas that you can REALYY discuss and argue and you can make your points. OR DONT SAY AT ALL..If you dont know much about the politics, try to read something , try to enrich your ideas by reading..Reading wont harm you..

But when you come here with only childish posts such as ´ah ha you are being supported, you are gay, your midwive´s c... etc´, you will always look childishly ignorant..

And you will ALWAYS   be embarresing yourself and your ideas.

Please yani.

and you! u always say u live with the truths as if we live in a world with all lie??? 

 I love this part...

haha

Enjoy it while you can..

 serenity before storm?

 No storm here pdr ooops I mean brother 

"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."/E. Roosevelt

Here comes DD and stores the order..

Hey! It was E. Roosevelt not me! I´m still fighting for a place in the SSDandL Gang. Don´t make it harder for me to get there!

Accept it DD, ´you being in that gang´ would be very superficial.

...

 ...

why are old (or existing) users registering with new names?

I will call this ´contamination of user table in the database´ 

I don´t think your going to find to many people in my country who will DENY what happend to the Native Americans.  Many of these tribes have tried to form an independant country,  however without the backing of our imports and exports it has failed.  I´m not even going to debate with you on what "genocide" was more barbaric...that´s just a ridiculous statement.  All genocides are a crime of humanity and to what degree is human life more sacred than others is not for me to try to determine.

People want to forget about the Armenian Genocide....but there is no statue of limitations on a genocide. Do we forget about the Jews? It appears the old Ottoman empire committed these crimes, therefore Turkey  has become an accomplence by it´s big campaign of denial.  I don´t view it as historical truth but rather an issure of morality and acceptance of truth.  By not resolving this....may have led to another misguided leader Hitler...who himself referred to what happen to the Armenians as a Genocide.  What happened after World War I, could have also been a display of behavior from past history which resulted of thousands of Jews being slaughtered.  Why is that historians don´t leave Hitler and the Holocaust alone?  Also, if want to blame anyone for all the lives lost in World War I you can blame your own government for leading you into this war.

There has been court decisions and admissions years ago, in fact Prime Minister Damat Ferid Pasha placed the blame on the young turks. Even an interview Ataturk back in 1926 stated the Young Turks should be made to account for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en mass from their homes and massacred.  The United Nations Covention as well as the international community recognize it.  You ask why bring it up now after all these years...well let´s see things have a way of repeating themselves and unless we acknowledge and condemn this we are once again turning a blind eye. 

What´s even more bothersome is the Turkish archives aren´t even open to the public.  They are only open to Turkish Scholars...which makes me believe they have alot to hide..  Oh and by the way if you believe in anyone´s judicial system fully, then you are really fullish yourself.

 Who said I had all the facts bubblehead? 

 That doesn´t keep you from expressing your "opinion" though, does it?

Reminds me of.....

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

so said Joseph Goebbels

"All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.”

 so said Adolf Hitler

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”

so said Joseph Goebbels

You see....you have to keep repeating the propaganda...

so said G W Bush

 Great post Alameda

(Apart from link )

Last I checked this site still allowed people to express their opinions

 Well, when was that last time you checked????

I do love you

(dont tell hairy)

America does not recognize the American Native Genocide, whereas many states within America recognize the so called armenian genocide.

so do you also agree that the genocide carried out by the armenian tashnak terrorists against the Turks was a crime of humanity?

hitler never talked about the so called armenian genocide. That`s just cheap armenian propaganda and has no proof, but there are lots of documents proving the armenian collaboration with the nazis in the ww2. Do you know how many armenians were there in the nazi army?check out tallarmeniantale.com and get enlightened.

Ataturk just acknowledged that some Armenians were massacred so were some Turks. No one here denies that some Armenians were killed on the way to Syria. That doesnt make it a genocide because there was no planned action to kill all the Armenians.

the Turkish archives are open to all scholars teaschip, I think you`re totally brainwashed by the armenian propaganda. The closed archives are the Armenian tashnak ones in Boston.

This is really a funny statement..

Those archives were never open..We were just told that ´they were open´.

Would you like to translate the article

http://www.taraf.com.tr/makale/728.htm

it clearly says that the Turkish archives are open.

Let´s see Alamada many things I stated here are indeed "facts"... Most people base their opinions on facts, unlike you. Using your concept theory we would never know the truth about anything...

 Seriously...where are your facts that this was "genocide"?

Maybe you have important information that should be passed on to historians who have failed so far...

 It´s our little secret.

Örneðin, Eylül 1919’da Sivas’ta Mustafa Kemal’i ziyaret eden Amerikan Generali Harbord kendisine ‘Ermeni kýtâli hakkýnda ne düþündüðünü’ sorduðunda, Ermenilerin katledilip sürülme le rinin hükümeti ele geçiren küçük bir komitenin ese ri olduðunu kendisinin de bunu ‘takbih’ ettiðini (kýnadýðý) söylemiþtir. (Rauf Orbay, “Rauf Orbay´Ã½n Hatýralarý,” Yakýn Tarihimiz Dergisi, Cilt 3, s.179) 24 Nisan 1920’de, Büyük Millet Meclisi’nde yaptýðý konuþmada da 1915’te Ermenilere yapýlanlarý ‘maziye aid fazâhat’ (geçmiþe ait alçaklýk) olarak tanýmlamýþtýr. (Atatürk´ün TBMM Açýk ve Gizli Oturumlarýndaki Konuþmala rý, Cilt I, Ankara:Kültür Bakanlýðý Yayýnlarý, 1991, s.59.)

a quick translation:

Ataturk in september 1919 gave an answer to the Amerikan general  Harbord (for his question about what Ataturk thought about Armenians) : he dispparoved what is done to the armenians and he blamed a small comitte which was in the goverment -he meant young Turks-

And in April 1920 he told in the parliement that ´what is done to armenians was a lowlesness belongs to past´

and how does that contradict to what I said? Ataturk also talked about the massacres of Turks carried out by the Armenians in Nutuk.

Apperantly, what Hitler said was authanticated authenticated by Dr. K.B. Bardakjian, at Harvard in 1985 from secret notes taken by German Admiral Wilhelm Canaris during Hitler´s speech..

I still dont understand why what Hitler said was so Important!

what a columnist write is not true all the time

Secret notes from speeches, things overheard?  All of this would be considered hearsay in a courtroom!

it`s all about how low Armenians can get to portray Turks as evil. even the most biased resources say that its an alleged quote.

did hitler eyewitness what happened in Turkey in the ww1? No.

The problem of "Armenian genocide" is a much more serious one than it is thought by everyone, because it keeps breeding violence in more places than it is realized. The solution is to expose the truth, the whole truth related to this problem.

The Ottoman Empire was not an empire like the others, meaning that it was not built through colonization. It was created by the necessity of self-defense. And Ottoman rulers believed that it was their God-given duty to protect the peoples of the countries they ruled. For example, they reduced taxes in all those countries, abolished taxes in poor countries, and even sent sacks of gold to countries and cities in need, including some European cities. They sent food to Ireland when it was badly needed. They sent aid as far as Indonesia. They treated all citizens equally. When they liberated Cyprus from the occupation of Catholics, they sent gold, materials, personnel, and even drawings to repair Orthodox churches left in ruin by the Catholic occupiers. This is how the Ottoman "Empire" lived for 500 years. Armenians were given the status of preferred people because of their activities useful to all citizens.

After the Ottoman rule´s usefulness and power diminished, Western states began dismantling the Ottoman "Empire" for colonizing many of the countries they "liberated." Their main strategy was to promise independence to the non-Turkish citizens and to help them to rebel against the State. This strategy worked well in the Balkans and in the south of Anatolia, because Turks constituted a minority in most cities there.

But, the Westerners and the Russians made the mistake of using the "liberation" strategy also in Anatolia where the Turks constituted the majority. They choose the Armenians as their tool in Eastern Anatolia. For this strategy to work, Armenians had to become the majority, and this necessitated genocide against the Turks. This is how Anatolian genocide began, but it was committed extremely savagely by the Armenians against the Turks, with the help of Western powers and the Russian army invading Northeastern Anatolia. This is the great truth that has to be known by the whole world. Armenians joined Russian troupes in masses and also engaged in sabotage acts behind the Turkish army. The guilty Armenians fled with the retreating Russian forces. This process was repeated several times following the military developments and carried many Armenians outside Anatolia. The same things happened again in Southeastern Anatolia with French forces using the Armenians. Of course, Turks defended themselves but never committed the atrocities like those committed by Armenians. Also, more Turks died than Armenians, because Armenians were trying to realize genocide.

well..

then why we, Turkish goverment, spending huge amount of time trying to prove he did not say that..?

dont be funny man of course turkish ppl didnt sit and watch what armenians gangs were doing. it s normal that there was a reaction against their attacks.  we call it "self defending". but turk government gave a decision and moved them from those areas. what would you do if some ppl killed all of ur family and you saw them???

I think may be I did not make myself clear..

The archives are open in theory..BUT that article tells you what parts from which archives have gone missing..

Sorry but some of this just goes too far!   You are protraying Turkey and Ottomans as if they were whiter than white  and could do no wrong.  Wow - you were gods eh?

I was backing you Turks and agreeing with you, until I read this.....

who tries to disprove that? it should be proven first to be disproven, handsome!

America was one of the first countries who acknowledged the Armenian Genocide and thousands of missionaries have testified as to what happened, including German and Russians. Even a number of Turkish officials gave testimony under oath during the post war tribunals.  The Hitler statement was authenticated by Dr. K. B. Bardajian at Harvard in 1985 from secret notes taken by German Admireal Whilhelm during Hitlers speech.  Over a million people were butchered to death and fled the region.  Turkey has always dismissed this topic, never allowing external scholars to view historical documents.  I don´t know...chalk it up to a minor dispute or what a personal opinion...hmmm most doubtful.

Oh... come on..

 Stop talking your father´s words, and find out for yourself.  Where is America´s proof to back the Armenian "genocide".  And....even more interesting...what is the purpose of it?

I will quote what I have translated before here

It can may be tell you WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO LIVE WITH THE TRUTH:

They lied to us all the time.
They told us "but they killed us too".
There were mobs over the borders with Russia and they killed.
They were barbarians too.
But what have they got to do with women, babies, men and elders from Bursa,Sivas,Maras and Adana?
Ittihatcilar killed them because they were just Armenians.
Forget ittihacilar, and  murderers.
You are closer to victims not the murderers.
Because you are humans.

 Why do you keep repeating things?

i agree. that`s the same kind of bigotry as of teaschip.

 Phew! 

why is it bothering you?

 It is like you have to tell a child.... repeating something over and over does not make it more true

 YES IT DOES...YES IT DOES...YES IT DOES....YES IT DOES....YES IT DOES....YES IT DOES..................................!!!!!!!

well..we are talking about years of brainwashing here..

and telling the truth again and again does not make any harm anyway.

and since when you think you are an expert on this issue anyway..

I see - the problem is worse than I thought.... you should see a therapist

When an expert in this topic joins the conversation, I will be happy to shut up

cause it`s shallow, and the guy who says that is just a fanboy.

I think you should really shut up now..

 Why?

I seriously believe you do never want to hear anything else apart from what you were told.

ok..sorry

do not shut up please

Fathers words... Proof....would you also say this to the Jews. Let´s see witnesses, testimonies, dead bodies...archives that the Turks refuse to disclose.  I can see how irrevelant it must be to you, since pasta is the foundation of your new found religion.

 And surely the same applies to you (unless, of course, you were around at the time this was alleged to take place )

 There is definite proof of the Jews.  Pasta is no more silly to me than your religion sweety

 he obviously likes it))

what?

are you saying that we are not allowed to talk about history now because we were not around at the time when this was taken place

 Of course no!  But is this not the same thing you implied to Tamikidakika?

wasn`t it you who a few days ago trashed an article of Yilmaz Ozdil because it was shallow? so why are you quoting this piece of crap which is even shallower?  Yes, Ahmet Altan is a fanboy, and shallow. why should I bother what he says in his crappy newspaper?

Nope I did not..

But it is lovely to see you , tami, bsb , temora etc in the same line..

I have to go now..But I will come back

 "really respectful authorities" to believe........

 coz fellow who passes it  is shallow too...and measures others his measure

right, you should always trust those missionaries. one of them tried to convert me a few days ago in library. but I`m a bad infidel who doesn`t even recognize the :"armenian genocide".

 Teaschip....It is good you put quotation marks around your "facts"....do you really think this is your or my business? (...or any other countries other than Turkey and Armenia)

We have plenty of issues in our own country. It´s between the Turks and the Armenians. The genocides of the Amerindians, African slaves are our business.

.......as for your "facts"....they are very selective.

What happened to the Jews in WWII is unique in history. There has been NO proof anything like that happened to the Armenians during WWII. Yes, many died, many were killed during a war to which they were an active participant.

People die in wartime. Read my post on the first page regarding the deaths during this time. Millions died during the influenza epidemic. War is HELL! Fanning the flames of hatred and division only helps create more chaos....

u seem to forget Alameda that teas.....has a mission here...she will not stop to keep on enlighting us,barbarianson her right american way of seeing things..oooops."facts"

 I thought that was my mission

Anyway I agree with most of them, Teaschip, it is too easy to say you have ´facts´ that ther has been Armenian genocide. Your view sounds more like American view of history. There has never been any proof for it to be a genocide. Genocide implies the planned killing of a group of people because of their race, religion etc. Looking at historical facts, if it would have been any other group threatening the territorial integrity of the empire, they may have decided for the same measurements, so it had nothing to do with them being Armenian. Another thing, an ethnic clearing of an area or a forced migration, does not fall under the term of genocide either.  And what happened was a forced migration

I´m afraid you should go through your ´facts´ again.

Interesting how people here take things out of context...Please point out where I said the Genocide was a fact...I only expressed my opinions on here backed up with certain facts that contribute to my opinion.  I haven´t heard one comment here to support otherwise.  Also, please don´t imply I´m using American History here to support my opinion. 

 cnm,at least you speak about yourself......u r ppl who take things out of contex,did u notice?

 How about these comments written by you in this very thread?

"Let´s see Alamada many things I stated here are indeed "facts"... Most people base their opinions on facts, unlike you. Using your concept theory we would never know the truth about anything..."

"Fathers words... Proof....would you also say this to the Jews. Let´s see witnesses, testimonies, dead bodies...archives that the Turks refuse to disclose.  I can see how irrevelant it must be to you, since pasta is the foundation of your new found religion."

" Si +++  I have a hard time believing this was not a Genocide and the problem by ignoring this fact is another reason why Turkey won´t get into the EU.  By denouncing this to all the families is like saying it never happened.   What your sending is a message loud and clear that it´s acceptable which gives it good cause to repeat itself in history.  Can you imagine if we said the Holocaust was not a genocide, nope it didn´t happen....no maybe you can´t.  I know there are several topics here in TC that we have already discussed pertaining to this topic."

" I don´t think your going to find to many people in my country who will DENY what happend to the Native Americans.  Many of these tribes have tried to form an independant country,  however without the backing of our imports and exports it has failed.  I´m not even going to debate with you on what "genocide" was more barbaric...that´s just a ridiculous statement.  All genocides are a crime of humanity and to what degree is human life more sacred than others is not for me to try to determine.

People want to forget about the Armenian Genocide....but there is no statue of limitations on a genocide. Do we forget about the Jews? It appears the old Ottoman empire committed these crimes, therefore Turkey  has become an accomplence by it´s big campaign of denial.  I don´t view it as historical truth but rather an issure of morality and acceptance of truth.  By not resolving this....may have led to another misguided leader Hitler...who himself referred to what happen to the Armenians as a Genocide.  What happened after World War I, could have also been a display of behavior from past history which resulted of thousands of Jews being slaughtered.  Why is that historians don´t leave Hitler and the Holocaust alone?  Also, if want to blame anyone for all the lives lost in World War I you can blame your own government for leading you into this war.

There has been court decisions and admissions years ago, in fact Prime Minister Damat Ferid Pasha placed the blame on the young turks. Even an interview Ataturk back in 1926 stated the Young Turks should be made to account for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en mass from their homes and massacred.  The United Nations Covention as well as the international community recognize it.  You ask why bring it up now after all these years...well let´s see things have a way of repeating themselves and unless we acknowledge and condemn this we are once again turning a blind eye.

What´s even more bothersome is the Turkish archives aren´t even open to the public.  They are only open to Turkish Scholars...which makes me believe they have alot to hide..  Oh and by the way if you believe in anyone´s judicial system fully, then you are really fullish yourself.

So what happens in history as long as it doesn´t affect you personally, isn´t anyone´s business.  Wow, what a narrow mind you have.   TThen can someone please tell me why do the following countries recognize the Armenian Genocide, if indeed it was just another war.  Please enlighten me what motives these countries have to gain by recognizing it.  Help me understand....

Argentina

Armenia

Austria

Belgium

Canada

Chile Cyprus

France

Germany

Greece

Italy

Lebanon

Lithuania

Netherlands

Poland

Russia

Slovakia

Switzerland

Uruquay

Vatican City

Venezula

   and Armenia

 Really, there all your neighbors hmmm... I guess my globe is different then yours.  So again please tell me why they recognize the Armenian Genocide?  Instead of telling me in so many words that I´m an idiot for even considering this was Genocide...then help me understand differently.   I do have cooking to do and I haven´t learned how to knit yet...sorry.

Lack of history knowledge unfortunately  

 u sure u r talking about us...?do they teach about Chile Cyprus in American colleges?well.well,well never heard about it although being called narrow by"open minded one")

 Divert the dialogue...hmmm.....take care of your own house first. If my son is murdering my daughter, or vice versa,  that is my priority, not what is going on down the street, or in the next town.

If I have a dog that is attacking the children in the neighborhood, that is my priority.

Now we are involved in wars that have killed at least one million Iraqi citizens, caused over four thousand American GIs to die...wounded and maimed countless humans...destroyed and contaminated land and sea, and you want to go over something that happened almost 100 years ago (and before the term genocide was a concept and crime) and is contested?

I seriously wonder where your priorities are. I note these are things that are happening NOW.

 It´s your mentality that scares me...Sorry, those analogies don´t work for me.  If your son murdered your daughter in my neighborhood or town and caused the market value of houses to decline because people viewed my neighborhood as dangerous....it is my business.  So I take it you don´t watch the news or read the paper either.  Most everything has a cause an effect...whether it´s in your back yard or hundred miles away.  I don´t think your in any position to question my priorties. 

 ....but if I stopped it instead of looking at what happened 100 years ago in a land thousands of miles away from me, it probably would not happen....

sorry to have to let you know this, but by not stopping what is under your nose...NOW...you will have a rotting carcass moldering and festering in your basement that will soon contaminate the whole city...causing the rise of vermin that cause illness that can infect the whole world....if you don´t take care of it now.

 How could I forget about Cyprus...wasn´t that once a beautiful thriving country where tourism was in abudance....then one day Turkey decided to invade on a whim.  And I didn´t realize Argentina, Chile, Canada and Venezula was in your back door.  Since when did they become part of Europe or Asia? You still haven´t answered my question...Why do all of these countries recognize the Armenian Genocide?  I´m asking you to help me understand...

 Believe me Alameda my eyes and ears are open to the NOW, if I had a rotting carcass in my basement I hope I would know.  I´m also a person who doesn´t sweep the crumbs underneath the rug either. However,  there is nothing wrong with discussing the THEN.  I think it´s careless not to discuss history in order to not repeat simliar mistakes. 

 You are aware of the fact that Cyprus was an Ottoman territory that was annexed by Britain in 1914, and became a Crown colony in 1925, aren´t you? Have you heard of EOKA? Have you heard of eonosis? Turkey did not decide to invade Cyprus on a whim my dear...please go back to your history lessons.

 This is sick. I hope you don´t see your mother or your future wife like this.

It is deleted. Suck sick comments are not acceptable.

Ahmet Altan

In September, 2008 when Altan published "Oh, My Brother" article dedicated to the victims of Armenian genocide and the Turkish-Armenian relations, he was charged under Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code for "denigrating Turkishness".

The judicial claim is initiated by the far-right "Great Union Party

you sound just like a thick and arrogant American. Just typical, and nothing surprising... I would lecture you about the greek aoka terrorists, christmass bloodshed, bathroom massacre, mass graves of Turks, enosis and many other things but that would just be a time loss cause arrogant people can`t learn.

well end of the day, what happened in 1915 binds us all Turks..

Because it is our history, because we have to know the truth. And knowing the truth is quite important because ´what went there´  happened to be at the time of  start of our nationalism  which kind of still rules the country.

The same nationalism (say it was necessary at the time, say it was a self defence, say there was no other way etc) is still seeing the major problems of Turkey from the same angle.

Now lets look at what went there at the time..

I think everybody accepts that it was the time of disintegration of ottomany empire. End of 19 centry most of the balkans were left with the nationalist movements( Greeks, Bulgarians etc.)

And also everybody accepts that Armenians wanted to leave too..(btw.Their nationalism started long before Turkish nationalism.)

It is also well known that they collaborated with the Russians specially and Armenian groups started to kill Turkish civilians.. (If I am not wrong, totaly they killed between 12 to 25 thousands civilians)

And what went after that was the backlash from young Turks goverment..(which I gave some brief info about them here http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_30435)

They decided to move almost every armenians out ouf Anatolia. (Basically, it was a war and ottomans were losing everything. Young Turks who were in the government were in a panic. They thought if the main part of Anatolia was lost to Armenians, we ,Turks would have no place to live! That was the main psychology of Young Turks at the time)

And they decided to move every single armenian to Syria, although the rebels were mainly active along the Russian borders.

This went on almost  17 months. Ermanians  young/old/women/babies etc from east and west they were forced to march!

The result?

We dont know how many Armenians died exactly..

but according to a report from a committe which was formed by the Ottomani goverment to investigate the war crimes said that 800.000 Armenians died during WW1.(Vakit, 15 Mart 1919). In 1928 in a report from the army head quoter said that 800.000 Armenians and 200.000 Greeks died (Aktaran Hikmet Bayur, Türk Ýnkilap Tarihi, C. III, Kýsým IV, Ankara:Türk Tarih Kurumu Yayýnlarý, 1991, s.787.)

Even our offical historian Kamuran gurun said the number was 300.000.

(A few years ago, Orhan Pamuk said something like ´there were 1.000.000 armanians 40.000 kurds died on these soils and we should be able to discuss. He got nearly killed for those words)

And in 1992, we invented the phrase ´so called armenian genocide´..(it was not referred as ´so called´ before)

Anyway..now we are at this moment..in 2008.

We, Turks never wanted to talk about this issue.. Our archives were closed for a long time and when it was open officially, anybody who wanted to investigete had some serious problems!! And now many important parts of the archives gone missing!!

Anyway, this is an important issue..Authorities who LIED to us about kurdish issue (bye saying that -no kurds, only mountain Turks-) are the same people telling us what is ´our official explanation is about the armenian issue´ (that is the brainwashing part btw haha )..I will always be spectical about it.

It is important. Hrant Dink was killed because of this issue..

It is important because we need to know the truth..

btw.. I m not implying that it was a genocide.

well.. Gentelmen...When I called that writer shallow, If i am not mistaken, I also gave the explanation why he was shallow and what was not true in his writings or his ideas..

I never seen you coming with credible explanation apart from ´fun boy´ or ´crappy newspaper´.

But i agree upto a certain degree..Ahmet Altan is not as deep as the other writers in that paper..I did not translate the others because A Altan´s was easier to translate..

Does this mean he is now a member of the The SSDandL Gang?

Hehehehehe

I think he could also belong to the WYSIWYG Gang

AE could you possibly if it´s not too much trouble stop using acronyms that sound Welsh, please.

Robert Fisk

Any political filth or personal libel can be hurled at the innocent

Published: 21 April 2007

don´t you have anything else to do roswitha except for stirring up???will u finally decide where r u in this TCL game or...????dear mods nothing personal,just a question so u can delete it if u like

Armenian Allegations and the Facts

This seems very much formal site to me,so why claiming Türkiye trys to cover it up ?

No stating what others want to hear is not covering up i believe,maybe there is nothing to hide to start with !

Have you ever considered that ?

 consider what?the fact Turkiye admits that many armenians lost their lives...but does not admit genoicide

"Under the light of these evidences, it is possible to say that, to accuse the Ottoman Government by a planned, systematic genocide idea or implementation is a baseless allegation. The so-called Armenian Genocide that the Armenian Committees claim never occurred. "and we are still stuck to the past..having countries that have nothing in common with Turkey to admit that..hehe...hayat...

Of course many people lost their lives,Turks and armenians,it was war...but genoicide is different .

 it is different....and still gives an impression in this case that Turkey is treated with despise and hatred by nations which did during war time the same ....but now have insight into Turkish claim to EU as not wanted one bringing into light past times

just in case you don`t know, she can`t answer your questions. She is an android who posts only newspaper articles.

 Good Morning Roswitha ! wind is telling me u r still running to the top.......

Are we "done" with this thread now for another six months?

It is a bit tedious.  Perhaps it is time for another headscarf debate?

 it is question for Roswitha,I guess) Aenigma,can u b more straigtforward in the future sister?

 Sorry Temora bro/sis, I concentrating on my peanut throwing and was not giving my post full attention

Roswitha, I for one do not accept everything Mr. Fisk writes. He is a credible scholar in some areas, but like most, he has areas of subjectivity.

The fact of the matter is there was no recognized crime of Genocide during the time the "Armenian Genocide" is purported to have taken place. That crime was not recognized until December 1948. War is Hell and unless we consider war itself as an act of genocide, I don´t think this "Armenian Genocide" claim meets the test.

It´s a good thing that there is now a recognized crime of Genocide. We are progressing. However to try to apply that to something that is purported to havwent on 33 years previously is another thing. I´ve heard of retroactive imunity (which I do not agree with), but retroactive guilt....???? If we are to do this, just think of all the crimes we will be after......

Even then, I do not agree what happened was "Genocide".  I would like to point out the fact that there was a war going on, a war where many millions of people died. There were Armenian groups who sided with Russians and were fighting against the Ottoman Empire...IOW they were traitors to their own country who massacared many Turks.

Many ethnic Turks were recently massacared in the Khojaly Massacares as recent as 1992. Just what did we hear about this? Where was the outrage? I think it is the "Armenian Genocide" issue was in large part an inspiration and fuel for those massacares as well as many of the acts of Armenian Terrorism against Turks.

In my opinion the "Armenian Genocide" issue is just a tactic to destabilize Turkey. It´s a case of the victor writing history. There have even been talks about the Sevres treaty still being in effect and would like to go back to the partitioning of Turkey. Let´s remember, Turkey is in a very strategic area, and has a lot of waterfront property. Everyone wants waterfront property.

More efforts to redraw the maps to a "New Middle East" map.

For years I accepted the "Armenian Genocide" as a fact. For years I heard only the Armenian side of things. It was only relatively recently I heard the other side, and changed my mind. It´s the old tactic of repeating the propaganda. You know, catapult the propaganda?

Another issue is the lack of finding a cause to prosecute anyone during the Malta Tribunals, which were held shortly after the purported incident.

Your article mentions Taner Akcam, he is hardly a unbiased party.

 Why Turkey? Let other countries first admit their massive murders. China, Korea, Japan or Russia,

Hi Everyone,

This is a real story and background about Taner Akcam, he is actually was a terrorist a while ago and now he claims he knows the history better than anybody.. anyways, this is his story, enjoy reading

You may have heard that the ranks of those who accuse Turkey of having committed a "genocide" against the Armenians now include a Turkish citizen named Taner Akcam. Akcam who is affiliated with a German research center and claims a doctorate in history, has become the darling of the Armenian diaspora activists in this country and in Europe. He has been invited to the United States several times--all expenses paid by Armenian organizations--to give talks and participate in conferences. Currently, he is a "visiting scholar" at the Armenian Research Center (ARC) at the University of Michigan-Dearborn. The ARC serves as one of main mouthpieces of anti-Turkey Armenian propaganda in the U.S. Its Director, Dennis Papazian, is a well-known professional falsifier of history who has consistently denied that Armenians were involved in the deaths of thousands of Turks in Eastern Anatolia during World War I. During the past decade, Akcam has published several books in Turkey on the Armenian issue, including Turk Ulusal Kimligi ve Ermeni Sorunu (Turkish National Identity and the Armenian Question). Akcam´s publications show no evidence that he knows Ottoman Turkish or that he has ever worked in the Ottoman archives. In his writings, Akcam parrots the familiar arguments that have become the staple of the Armenian propaganda machine. He wholeheartedly endorses the Armenian claim that the Armenians were the victims of a horrible "genocide" that was planned and carried out by the Ottoman government during World War I. While dismissing the actions of the Armenian terrorist organizations against the Empire´s Turkish and Muslim populations, he puts the blame for the tragic events that took place more than 80 years ago solely on the Young Turk leadership. Moreover, in line with the standard Armenian arguments, Akcam asks that Turkey formally apologize for its "crimes" to cleanse its national and collective conscience from this "horrible" burden. In his only publication to appear in English so far--an essay that was translated from German by none other than the well-known protagonist of the Armenian version of history, Vahakn Dadrian--Akcam goes so far as to argue that there was a close connection between the Armenian "genocide" and the national resistance movement in Anatolia led by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, and that the foundations of the new Turkish Republic reflected the involvement of its leadership in a genocidal policy. At the conclusion of his essay, Akcam wonders how traumatic it would be for Turks to discover that the individuals they regarded as "great saviors" and "people who created a nation from nothing" were in fact "murderers and thieves". To understand how a person who claims Turkish citizenship can express such outrageous views, it is important to know something about his background. Taner Akcam was born in Kars--a province where there is a sizeable number of Turkified Armenian families--and he is the son of the leftist writer Dursun Akcam. Taner Akcam became involved in radical leftist activities while he was still a lycee student. His radicalism intensified while he studied at the Middle East Technical University in the early 1970s. Akcam moved from student activism into political terrorism by joining the THKP-C (Turkiye Halk Kurtulus Partisi-Cephesi-Turkish People´s Liberation Party-Front) in 1972--a terrorist organization that was implicated in the assassinations and killings of numerous far-right militants, Turkish security officials, and American and NATO military personnel. In the mid-1970s, Akcam became a leading member of DEV-YOL (Devrimci Yol-Revolutionary Path) and the editor of its periodical Devrimci Genclik Dergisi (Revolutionary Youth Magazine). It might be recalled that DEV-YOL was one of the two principal leftist terrorist organizations (the other being DEV-SOL) that played a major role in the bloody escalation of political violence in Turkey during the 1970s. In the bizarre ideological divisions among the leftist groups that proliferated on the Turkish political scene at the time, DEV-YOL was known as following a "pro-Soviet" line in terms of its international loyalties. DEV-YOL´s bloody terrorist activities, which claimed hundreds of fatalities and a large number of serious injuries, included assassinations, armed attacks, bombings, and bank robberies. The group also achieved notoriety when it set up a so-called "liberated zone" in the town of Fatsa on the Black Sea coast where DEV-YOL militants established their control for several months before being routed by the security forces. During this period of heightened terrorism, Akcam was an active participant in the planning of assassinations and armed attacks against the targets chosen by DEV-YOL. He was in the inner leadership circle of the terrorist organization and worked as the right-hand man of its leader Oguzhan Muftuoglu. In addition, as the editor of DEV-YOL´s magazine, he wrote numerous articles exhorting DEV-YOL militants to engage in violence to bring down "the oligarchy", to punish "the fascists", and to get rid of "American imperialism". By the mid-1970s, as political violence between the far-left and ultra-nationalist groups escalated, Akcam had become one of the leading "theoreticians" of leftist terrorism and violence in Turkey. Taner Akcam was arrested in 1976. After a trial that lasted several months he was sentenced to eight years and nine months for his role in fomenting terrorism and political violence. However, Akcam did not stay in jail for long: in a spectacular incident that made the headlines in the Turkish press, he escaped from a prison in Ankara along with four other convicted terrorists in March 1977. After hiding in Turkey for several months, he managed to find his way to Germany where he asked--and received--political asylum. In Germany, Akcam continued his involvement in radical leftist activism and became the leader of a group known as Gocmen Harekat¹ (Migrant´s Movement) that sought to reorganize the other leftist terrorists who had escaped from Turkey. In the aftermath of the 1980 military coup in Turkey, Akcam became a leading figure in mobilizing demonstrations and protests against Turkey in Germany. He also wrote articles in various leftist publications in which he criticized DEV-YOL´s leader Muftuo?lu for his "pacifism" and called for the renewal of the "armed struggle" in Turkey. He also maintained his fanatical criticisms and attacks against of the West in general, and the United States in particular. In an interview in 1989, he declared: "I consider saying ´yes´ to NATO and the European Union the biggest shame for a revolutionary. I am against the West since I consider it an imperialist power...and because I view the technology, culture, and politics of the West dangerous for all mankind." Akcam returned to Turkey in 1993 for the first time since his prison escape. Since his 1977 conviction and sentence had expired, he could not be put back into prison. In a press conference that he held upon his arrival to Istanbul, he stated that "DEV-YOL´s struggle" was going to continue. However, by the early 1990s, DEV-YOL had become a relic of the past and a new generation of terrorists had appeared on the scene that did not much care for older militants such as Akcam. Taner Akcam then worked for a period as an "advisor" to another former leftists radical, Gurbuz Cap¹n, who had become the mayor of Esenyurt municipality in Istanbul. In the 1990s, Akcam decided to reinvent himself as a "scholar" by writing books and articles on the Armenian question. Following graduate work in the university, he became affiliated with a research center in Hamburg. His uncritical acceptance of the Armenian version of the events that took place in Eastern Anatolia during World War I quickly gained him the sympathy and support of the anti-Turkey groups--Armenians, Kurds, and Greeks--first in Europe, and later in the U.S. At last, after spending years in terrorist organizations, hiding from the police, and living in exile as a refugee, Akcam had found his true calling in life. By gaining the dubious distinction of being the first "Turkish scholar" to agree wholeheartedly with all the Armenian allegations and claims against Turkey, Akcam finally managed to make a name for himself outside of terrorism and also earn a livelihood through the financial support provided by Armenian diaspora organizations. Akcam´s critical views about Turkey and the actions of the Turkish state is typical of a generation of leftist intellectuals and political activists who emerged on the Turkish political scene beginning in the late 1960s. For them, the Turkish state is capable of doing nothing good and worthy and everything that smells foul and nasty. As their hopes for a leftist revolution in Turkey faded away with the disintegration of the Soviet Union and the communist regimes around Turkey, they have searched for new venues to vent their anger and opposition to the Turkish state. Some former radical leftists have taken up political Islam as their new cause. Others have become supporters of radical Kurdish nationalism and the PKK. And in the case of Akcam, his lifelong opposition to Turkish state has manifested itself through his unabashed support for the Armenian falsifiers of history. It is lamentable that a person who has been a fanatical critic of the U.S. throughout his adult life and who has worked in terrorist organizations that were directly responsible for the deaths of American citizens is now warmly embraced by Armenians living in this country. Perhaps this should not come as a surprise since the Armenian activists have shown, over and over again, that they are willing to provide moral and material support to those who engage in terrorist acts directed at Turkey and Turkish officials. As a former terrorist leader with a long record of involvement in activities against the Turkish state, Akcam should feel at home among his new Armenian patrons. Taken from turkeyforum.org

I think we should not talk about the following subjects for at least 100 years (perhpas something will have changed by then):

1.  Armenia/Turkey - Was there a genocide or not?

2.  Headscarves....why do we care?

3.  Anything about Kurds

4.  Bed America

5.  Evil Britian

6.  I fell in love with a Turkish waiter and now he won´t text me back!

7.  It´s my first time meeting his family...what do I buy his Mum? 

8.  Islam/Christianity....which one has killed more people?

9.  Pastafarianism (it is way too controversial!)

I have taken the liberty of coming up with a few neutral topics:

1.  Puppies and kittens (no lab experiments please)

2.  What is the best laundry soap?

3.  The inside of a golf ball.....is it really empty?

4.  Butterflies are really pretty

5.  What did you have for breakfast?

6.  Air....its good to breathe

 If you care to read the forums dear, you will find many posts about such things.  However, most political posts tend to be about Turkey because of the nature of this website

I think even your "neutral" topics are WAY TOO CONTROVERSIAL

 When will you start these? I can´t wait.......

7. Why did the chicken cross the road?

The fittest chickens cross roads. [Darwin]

The road moved beneath the chicken. [Einstein]

 To get away from his oppressors!  (Elisabeth)

 Because terrible atrocities were being committed on his side of the road and evil chicken hawks chased him across the road in the dead of winter with his entire family! (Elisabeth)

 copycat

 Because he was standing on the evil, gluttonous west side and needed sanctuary in the east (MrX67)

 Bingo!

(so I was right then dearest Temora  )

Only a fox can outsmart Aenigma

Thousands of Turks sign petition for acknowledgment of Armenian genocide
by Geries Othman
The new sensitivity is the result of the death of Hrant Dink, the journalist killed two years ago. People connected to his murder are also part of the trial involving Ergenekon, the clandestine ultranationalist group accused of planning a state coup.

Istanbul (AsiaNews) - "My heart does not accept that the people are insensitive to the great tragedy that the Ottoman Armenians experienced in 1915. I reject this injustice, and sharing their pain and sentiment, I ask for forgiveness from my Armenian brethren." This is the online petition, more courageous than any before it, launched by three hundred Turkish intellectuals (journalists, writers, university professors) to ask for official recognition of the genocide of the Armenians during the first world war. It has been circulating on the internet for a month, and has already been signed by 27,650 Turkish citizens.

It may not be a petition that will change the intransigence always shown by Turkish governments toward the genocide of the Armenians, but it is certainly a sign that something is changing in the nation´s public opinion.

This is certainly one of the most significant results of the blood shed two years ago by Hrant Dink, the Armenian Turkish journalist shot to death on the streets of downtown Istanbul. Sentenced to six months for "insulting the Turkish identity," on the basis of article 301 of the constitution, for having dared to speak, as an Armenian, of genocide in the pages of his weekly Agos and in interviews that he gave to publications abroad, he became "the enemy of the Turks," and was essentially condemned to death by the same state justice that should have defended a citizen and his right to speak. (heck with such state justice!)

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=14246&size=A

This is politically incorrect. What happened then happened but it cannot be called genocide. You should define what genocide is first. It was defined by UN in 1948. Educate yourself first femus.

REALITIES BEHIND THE RELOCATION

In a telegram sent from Nizip on 21 October 1915/3 November 1915, Þükrü Bey reported that the transfer was proceeding smoothly.[127]

Of the people included in resettlement but shown as remaining behind in the above list, those left in Adana were subsequently moved to areas of resettlement.[128] The number of the Armenians resettled in the south, thus, totaled 438,758 while those reaching the resettlement area numbered 382,148. So, there is a difference of 56,610 between those who set out and those who made it to their new homes.

This difference stems from the following events according to documents: 500 people were killed between Erzurum and Erzincan, 2,000 more were killed at Meskene between Urfa and Aleppo , and a further 2,000 were killed by bandits and Arab tribes near Mardin. Although no firm figures are available, it is estimated that a similar number, that is, about 5,000 or a little more, were killed in the Dersim area by bandits attacking groups of transiting deportees.[129] In the light of these data, it is estimated that about 9-10,000 Armenians were killed during their deportation. It is also understood from the documents that some others starved to death on the road.[130] Apart from these, another 25-30,000 deported are believed to have succumbed to such diseases as typhoid or dysentery,[131] raising the number of casualties to some 50,000. As for the rest, some are believed to be those put on the road but later settled at the city they reached when the deportation was suspended. For instance, on 26 April 1916 , instructions were cabled to the province of Konya that the Armenians on the roads within the provincial borders should not be sent on, but settled within the province.[132] Meanwhile, it is believed that some Armenians marked for deportation had been smuggled out of the country and taken to Russia , Western Europe and the United States . In the documents there are records that about 50,000 of the Armenians under arms had defected to the Russian Army and 50,000 others were trained in the U.S. Army for the past three or four years to fight the Turks. A letter sent by an Armenian living in the United States to Murad Muradyan, a lawyer in Mamuretülaziz, contains such information.[133] The letter explicitly states that some Armenians had been spirited into Russia and the United States , and about 50,000 American-trained soldiers were about to leave for the Caucasus . All these documents make clear that large numbers of Ottoman Armenians were dispersed to many countries, headed by the United States and Russia , before and during the war. For instance, in a letter he sent to General Security Directorate on 19 January 1915 , Artin Hotomyan, an Armenian on a trading visit to the United States , wrote that thousands of Armenians were being smuggled into America , and that they were living in hunger and misery.[134] The same letter informed the officials that an Ýstanbul-based network had been smuggling the Armenians in the Ottoman state into the United States in return for material gain. One member of the gang was identified as Aramoyis from Kayseri , the son of Karabet, a shoemaker. This man was hiding the clothes of deserting Armenian soldiers, and were helping them escape to America or other countries in return for five or ten lira, the informer wrote. At the end, Hotomyan wrote that the reason he supplied this information was not connected with any feeling of grudge or personal hatred, and asked it to be accepted as a humanitarian duty and a service to the country.

Such information show that there is no great discrepancy between the number of Armenians deported from Asian and European provinces of the domain, and the number of those who reached their destinations, and that there had been no deliberate and systematic murders on the road as alleged. Meanwhile, since the number of deported Armenians were about half a million, the total Armenian population of the Ottoman state appears to be somewhere between 600,000 and 800,000, including Catholic and Protestant Armenians, the Armenian community of Istanbul that was likewise exempted from deportation, and finally the Armenians living in provinces partly or fully occupied by the Russian Army, like Erzurum, Van and Kars. In fact, in a 1918 report he sent to Monsieur Gout, the representative of the French Foreign Ministry, Armenian Delegation Chief Boghos Nubar Paþa gave the breakdown of Armenians dispersed to various areas after the deportation as follows:

The Armenian representative argued that the number of the deportees was not confined to this total of 390,000, but actually ran into 600-700,000 that he said, excluded the exiles dispersed to here and there in the deserts.[135] But it is clear from the figures supplied by Boghos Nubar Paþa, that 290,000 were those who left Ottoman territory without being exiled -since none were sent to Caucasia or Iran. So, if one subtracts 290,000 from the "600-700,000" deportee number given by the Armenian representative, then one arrives at the 400,000-plus total we have given, using authentic data taken from the government or police archives of the time. This also proves that the bulk of the deportees had safely reached their destinations, leaving no support for the claims of genocide. Indeed, following a meeting with Zenop Bezjian, the representative of Protestant Armenians, U.S. Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, has noted in his diary, his deep surprise over Bezjian´s remarks. In the following passage, Morgenthau describes his conversation with the Armenian dignitary:

"Zenop Bezjian, Vekil (Representative) of Armenian Protestants, called. Schmavonian introduced him; he was his schoolmate. He told me a great deal about conditions (in the interior). I was surprised to hear him report that Armenians at Zor were fairly well satisfied; that they have already settled down to business and are earning their livings; those were the first ones that were sent away and seem to have gotten there without being massacred. He gave me a list where the various camps are and he thinks that over one half million have been displaced. He was most solicitous that they should be helped before winter sets in".[136]

The passage above is illustrative in that it shows how the ambassador was taken aback on learning the contentment of the Armenians from the mouth of another Armenian.

As explained above, the decision on deportation had been taken after the Armenians, seeing the time as ripe for breathing life to the dream of an independent Armenia , stabbed their state in the back when it was occupied with the war. The documents reveal how the Russians deceived and instigated the Armenians.[137] Taken in by the Russian promises that the territories captured in war would be given to them and their independence would be recognized, Armenians have set up several revolutionary associations.[138] A verse written by the son of an Armenian named Murad shows the intentions of the Armenians without any room for doubt.[139] Having started their acts of terrorism before the deportation, they were seen to keep them up during the transit of deportees as well. The fact that they have collaborated with the enemy and engaged in massacres against the Muslim population, not only at the border areas, but also deep inside were borne out by Turkish as well as Russian documents.[140] There are documents showing that the Armenian atrocities continued even after the war. One example what were in store for the Muslims was displayed in 1920, when a 1200-strong unit entered Nakhechevan under the command of an Armenian named Hanov.[141] It is also clear from the cables dated 18 and 22 February 1336/3 and 7 March 1921 sent by Mümtaz Bey, the vice-governor of the Mamuretülaziz province, the Armenians who came under French protection were dreaming of an independent Armenia stretching from the Amanos Mountains to Adana .[142]

In the end, the Ottoman Government decided on publishing the documents of ´Armenian atrocities´ in a book, and sent instructions to all provinces for the collection and dispatch of such documents describing the Armenian acts of cruelty and the pictures of captured arms and bandits.[143] In the light of these documents, The Objectives and Revolutionary Activities of Armenian Committees Before and After the Proclamation of Constitutional Monarchy was published.[144

you ( general you ) call what Isreal have done to arabs " genocide" ( i agree that it is genocide) but when someone call what WE did to armenian which is much worse than Gaza war you suddenly become very agressive and protective.  typical Turkish  i wonder if  you will be able to get out of your little worlds which only have bias,hateiunfairness and paranoia.

si++,

i dont want to boast about my education like others do here. i occasionally catch their "high education" errors in some basic and common knowledge about geography, astronomy, religions or politics.

but you, si++ still are welcome to educate yourself from other sources, not only turkish gov history books or articles written by turkish nationalists.

i believe dink was killed for a reason, you turks felt insecure and threatened. his death exposes the naked truth about this delicate subject. his death stands a witness to the truth of genocide. you are so much afraid of the truth that you kill a person.

Well I don´t know what genocide means according to you. Maybe you should define it first than we can discuss if what happened back then can be qualified as genocide. But before you, UN got together and made a definition of it in 1948. Turkish state is ready to discuss it if 1915 events were a genocide according to this definition. You can believe what you want to believe. Then it´s only your belief. So what yani? You hate Turks, don´t you? You come to this site to jump onto every opportunity with which you can attack Turks in everyy possible way. I can see it in your posts.

 leave the definition to me.

turkish state is not only ready but is so scared of this case that jails everyone who openly talks about it, so most of them had to flee to abroad to be able to freely speak about it.

re: my feelings to turks i will talk later if its important to you.

Who cares about your definition? I have my defiition for "whore" and it´s only mine.

But UN definition is a universal one.  Everybody knows that 1915 events do not qualify according to that definition. Believe me Turkey is ready for an international trial according to that definition. So Armenians can file a case and they should have their proofs cause they look so sure that it was "genocide". But they also know that it wasn´t (lets´s say according to that definition). So keep your fucking definition for yourself femus.

re: no I don´t care about your obviously fucking feelings about Turks but you are here to show it with every opportunity, right femus?

 what does the word "whore" have to do with an armenian genocide? or you lost a control over yourself on this subject? oh, wait a minute, is it how you turks are ready to talk? nice talk congrats!

you asked for my feelings first well, its up to you, let me know when you want to know about my feelings

it may take 500-600 years, but i dont intend to live this long.

So Turkey and Turks ready to talk..eh?

Is it how you are going to talk? with whores and fuckings?

And you will make people believe what a nationalist Turk says? 

Guys,please choose your wordings

Having different opinions in a matter or regarding the person you are debating with,is not an excuse to use such words.

Ý would have asked you to modify your posts,except that option doesnt work still

So any further use of such wording will cause the deleting of the post.

I mentioned this  in the other related thread as well..

According to the book Talat Pasa’nin Evrak-i Metrukesi - memoirs of Talat pasha-(I hope nobody denies the authenticity of the documents in that book because you can not find a better source than Talat Pasha who was the architect of the incident) the census in 1914, shows that we had 1.256.403 Armenians in Ottoman borders. Talat Pasha also notes that some of the Armenian were not counted, so he adviced  to add some more into that value..

So, there were roughly 1.500.000 million Armenians.

According to the census in 1915-1916, the number of Armanians lived in Ottomani Borders were 284.157. Also with some corrections , the value becomes 350.000 or 400.000.

These deportations were done with the army units. So escaping by foot were not that easy..

Anyway, according to these documents, 972.000 Armenians dissapeared from Ottoman territory.

So from now on, people should stop speculating about the numbers..

The numbers are clear..

People should try to find an answer to the ultimate question : what happened to those 1.000.000  Armenians?

That is what people should be talking about..

ps..There is no shame talking about it..We should just know the truth..

 btw, to whom you are talking? if it was me swearing you wouldnt hesitate warning me or even deleting it.

 femmeous,if i will delete si´s post, i also will have to delete yours,and handsoms´ posts responding to him

That is why i warned, and if it continue i will delete the posts as i said.

i wasnt asking to delete his posts. i was speaking about your "objectiveness"

Not less than genocide has got to do with Turks.

You really used the ´common swearings´ in Turkey such as ´armenian seed´ wholeheartedly..

did you not?

And I assume ´YOU trying to call me an Armenian´ makes you feel good..

Keep doing it..

You are really showing who you  really are..

You are showing the typical characteristics of a common nationalist in Turkey..

ps:If I was an Armenian (or a Kurd) I would never deny it..

Actually I was referring to Denizli´s "içimizdeki Ýrlandýlýlar". You sound like an Armenian here with your posts. You were very excited when Bardakçý said that 900000 were relocated during 1915.

si++

you are the real turk, you represent millions of turks, the typical turkish mind. in fact what you said is a softer version of what you really think.

your words are the imitation of a turkish gov. and this is how turkish gov is ready to talk.

thank you, i prefer to be called a whore than side up with a bunch of brainwashed nationalists.

I was not excited at all!!

But for sure, you are dissapointed..

I never believed the ´state´ version of the events..

BUT YOU DID..

And those documents are a slap in the face for who has believed..

No, I wasn´t but you were excited as if that was the number of deads/killed. You sounded like you would be more contento if the figure was even higher.

You start many threads about this "so-called" you-know-what issue but you simply run away when somebody invites further talk about the number of muslims killed by Armenians. You simply act as an Armenian here, right hensým?

I keep telling you that I am not excited because I had known the firgures for a long time..

But for you and you like people who tend to believe whatever our general says  (the same generals said -there is no such a think called Kurds-) wholeheartedly, I think, these figures are a HUGE SLAP ON THE FACE..

Why?

Because what you believed was WRONG!!

Because it also proves that you HAVE BEEN LIED again..

That is why you are angry and feeling and acting like a beaten up or an  humiliated person..

And when someone tells you ´WHAT REALLY IS´, then bring it on the swearings, call people ´armenians´.. 

btw..calling people armanian is also a GREAT INDICATION about the mindset of petty Turkish  nationalists..

What kind of conclusion is that? If someone is born in Turkey, then that person is Turkish whether you like it or not. What a person thinks/believes is her/his private business, and has nothing to do with their nationality. Moreover, this sounds like a form or racism.

Interesting article si++, however could you provide a link? I like to know what the authority of things I read are from. Also, the text is so tiny it´s hard to read. I had to copy it and bring it into another doc to reformat it so as to be able to read the article.

BTW, I think the accusation of Armenian Genocide are false for a variety of reasons. The main reason I feel that way is because in that time period, during WWI, when 20 million people died the Armenians sided with the Russians, becoming a 5th Column.  Armenians were actively recruited to join in the war against the Turks.

The attempt to accuse Turkey of Armenian Genocide seems to me like a case of "History being written by the victors".............but the only problem is the Turkey was not totaly defeated. If there were no Attaturk, the story might have been different.

Alameda it´s actually a book contributed by various scholars. I have the whole book on my drive I can upload it to somewhere you can download. Let me know.

I was only pointing out that we have nothing in common between us with him. If you take it as a racism so be it. I don´t mind.

 I found it! It is by Yusuf Halaçoðlu and can be found here

Don´t you gentlemen think it´s time to take your dispute into private messages, rather than in public here?

This thread has been informative, but now it´s gotten into personal insults and vulgar language.

Please

I deleted a number of posts from this thread because of personal attacks/discussions. This is a topic where the heat can go up quickly but let´s please try to keep the posts on topic and not make it personal. 

 I agree with this

  actually you are the best example of how one can be brainwashed with lies. hehe, what a statement "i dont belive the state version events", instead you can clearly say "i dont believe in Turks, or i believe in Turks who suits my interests or i believe in history written by imperialists who came to occupy Turkey" will be more realistic.

Btw thehandsom you like it or not one of the basis of Turkish Republic is Atatürk nationalism. Atatürk himself was a nationalist too. This country kicked out of imperialist occupiers by becoming a nation, by getting rid of the ummah model, uniting all ethnicities under one nation with all same rights. Get over it firstly.

You can be a Turk by race but remember during the war of independence we have too many Damat Ferids, Ali Kemals who are Turks by race, as well as now. I think si++ tried to emphasize this(thats my impression, si++ can correct). Dont twist the issue by saying "if i was an Armenian, i would never deny it". I also called you Kurdish racist and i agree with the conclusion of si++, you sound like Armeniand/Kurdish racist here, that has nothing to the with your race or nationality , but i dont hope, you got it, and you will continue your Turkey hating propogand to provoke.

Finally like your statement, if being Turk is like you, who believes in imperialists lie, who hates everything about Turkey and Turks, who always tries to provoke, who tries to twist the history, who calls every Turk or the ones who think different than your imperialist flatterer mentality, racist then there is something wrong about Turks, they can welcome the ones who come to occupy their lands or they are not Turks.