ISTANBUL – Turkey is ranked 123rd in the attempt to close the gender gap between men and women among 130 countries worldwide, according to the overall ranking in the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Report 2008 released yesterday.

Turkey has a seriously deteriorating gender equality issue, women rights activists said as they evaluated the results of the report for the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review. Activists called on authorities to confront this reality, while women dealing with gender issues highlighted Turkey’s social atmosphere, which is gradually growing more conservative.

“Turkey has never been in a very good position [in terms of gender equality], but lately woman are much more harmed as narrow-mindedness within society increases,” said Professor Çiðdem Kaðýtçýbaþý from Koç University. “This is accepted as an ideology both by men and women. That is where problem occurs.”

“All the politicians and bureaucrats should accept the idea that men and women are equal. But they do not,” said lawyer Hülya Gülbahar, head of the Organization for Education and Support of Women Candidates, or KA-DER. The growing conservatism also affects the social democratic leftist and liberal segments of society, leaving women´s organization alone in their struggle, Gülbahar said.

Only Egypt, Morocco, Benin, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Chad and Yemen are below Turkey in the forum’s rankings. “Turkey’s performance relative to 2007 shows a slight improvement, driven by gains in education and political empowerment, but women’s economic participation has shrunk further with gaps in wage equality for similar work widen,” the report states. However, Turkey ranked 105th in 2006 among 115 countries, while it was 121st last year amongst 128 countries. It did not lose its position this year among these same 128 countries, but moved down to 123rd with the addition of the two new countries.

In terms of economic participation and available opportunities, Turkey ranked 118th last year; however, in the 2008 report, Turkey is in 124th. Turkey’s score for wage equality for equal work dramatically decreased in comparison to last year. It stood in 47th last year, while currently it is in 85th. However, its score for political empowerment improved. Turkey leaped two spots in terms of women participating in political life.

Turkey’s improvement concerning women’s participation in political life is a result of their campaign to increase the number of women in politics, said Gülbahar, adding that this improvement is not a real improvement. As a result of a giant campaign [during the last elections], a very tiny improvement was made, she said.

Gülbahar highlighted the significance of women´s quota for politics one more time. “It is so simple to change the image of Turkey in one night. Even a quota of 30 percent for women will change everything,” she said. Gülbahar argued with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoðan last year about the women´s quota. “Would you like to be like Rwanda?” Erdoðan asked Gülbahar, who called for a quota in politics. African country Rwanda had put a quota for female politicians in its constitution.

Political will is necessary to change this picture, said Gülseren Onanç, the head of The Women Entrepreneurs Association, or KAGÝDER. “The political will should realize that this is a problem,” she said.

Source: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10335385.asp?gid=244

*********

Hmmm, wonder if this article will end in a 15 page long topic......

Which country ranks first? =)

 Well, I don´t think the number of senators in the parliament shows the equality of men and women.. I think it is deep inside.  Like, if the women is working, equal with men, the same salaries and same positions, and when she comes back home, while the husband is lying down and watching the TV after a long working day and she is cooking dinner, washing the dishes, and blah blah, can you really say there is equality?

I think equality does not mean what we think.. if you were to put 2 glasses on the table and fill them with different amounts of water, then you can talk about not being equal.. But women and men are different, their natures, strengths and weaknesses are different.. i think the real equality is if you have power and influence in what you are strong at, and let the stronger get the lead for your weaknesses.

Well at least Turkey was ranked, The report didnt even mention Lebanon.

I beleive there is conspiracy , they studied all  neighboring countries, Syria, Israel, Jordan, Turkey, but they missed Lebanon.

Syria rank 107

Israel  rank   56

Jordan  rank 104

Here is the link to the full report, enjoy reading.

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/report2008.pdf

"If Lebanon was not my country I would have chosen lebanon to be my country" Gibran Khalil Gibran

Cool. Thanks for the info Trudy. Anyway i dont think we can infer much from this statistic.. Turkey can rank at 123 so what.. smaller gender gap doesn´t guarantee better equality of happiness.. it could mean more stressful life for women as they climb the corporate ladder and wanting to outdo the men. So doesnt mean Turkish women are not happy with their lives yea

 Ofcourse. There always is.

 You have a point, however for woman who want a career this is concerning.  Turkey is right up there with the Saudis. 

=) And this brings us to the ban on headscarfs which prevents prospective successful and career-minded women from pursuing tertiary education to build a successful career..

lol lets just stop right here on the headscarf topic

 Nice explanation. I agree with every word of Merih´s quote. Things are more complicated in such a matter, i wonder how they researched this...

 I don´t think it prevents anyone from getting an education.  So they ban headscarfs, well if that´s your reason for not getting an education that is your choice.  People need to take personal responsibility for their own actions.  What about getting a degree online?  That way you don´t even need to leave your house.

 ,  may be if they did a simple correlation test between wearing the scarf and the index of the country in question, they will have a 99% correlation.

As the saying goes : Torture numbers, and they´ll confess to anything!

Ofcourse things between genderrelations are much more complex than a ´simple survey´ shows. However, the participation of women in education, higher education, graduates, work, high positions in companies and politics, can reflect a lot about society (not about personal happiness) and our perception of that society.

Studies have shown that a higher participation of women in high functions of a company, generally make the succesrate of that company higher, because the way men and women make decisions and behave in discussions, is different. Here they complement each other which gives a better outcome for the company. (I am sorry, I dont remember where I read this, it must have been a newspaper, so I cant give any references.).

Obtaining more females in higher positions, asks for better and broader education of females. A woman who is educated, has seen studentlife and has been ´pushed´ to think on an academic level, is in my opinion more confident and knows more about herself, what she wants and needs. I think this does result in personal happiness, also in marital spheres.

(I do not mean to say that this is a privilige for women who have the capacity of studying in higher education. I feel this way about all sorts of activities that bring women in social and public life. I used that example in combination with the successrate at a compnay).

 It DOES prevent people from getting an education. There may be a whole lot of religious families for whom it is already a big step that they let their daughter study (yes this in itself should be changed, but things dont go overnight, and it is a good progress that conservative families let their daughters participate in education as well). You can understand that for a family for who it is already hard to make such a decision, this might be the factor that makes them decide not to send their daughter to school. Another notion: a degree online generally is much more expensive than going to a state-sponsored school. You should keep in mind that the majority of Turkey isn´t very wealthy. And I think you forget the age that people generally go to university. ´Your choice´ is easy to say, but many people at the age of 18 are still financially dependent on their parents and tehrefore are not able to make a 100% independent choice.

Your view is way too simplistic. A lot needs to be changed in Turkish society before any person at that age to be fully ´responsible for own actions´.

And besides all this, the headscarf ban is just discrimination. There is no law that prohibits any woman with a headscarf to go to university. However, there are vague laws about the prohibition of political signs. These days the debate of headscavres isnt just about putting it on, it is about HOW you put it on  The idea is that the way some headscarves are put on, represent Islamic political thoughts. I find this absurd. It may be true, but in that case you ban people from education because they have ´dissident opinions´ on politics. That sounds very dictatorial! And the religious devout guys, apparantly are allowed to have ´dissident opinions´, because they are not denied the right for education.

 Then it sounds like to me there are bigger issues here than a headscarf.  If families are in the mind set that they have to contemplate whether they will let their daughter have an education in the first place, then those behaviours are a big contributer to the equality problems Turkey faces.  I think the headscarf issue is just a small part of this.

Well, I agree that women should be if possible higher educated.. but the thing is, the women loose the purpose of working easily.  Most of the women are very ambitious to be successful. (By the way i am basically talking about the poor ranking countries).  They want to do what men do and the family´s are getting ruined at the end.. A female CEO of a company most of the times forget that she is a wife and a mum at the same time.  And she doesn´t and SHOULDN´t have the luxury to leave everything to a maid, or a grandmother.  She is the vital part of a child and a marriage life, and she has to be there to wake up the child, or give breakfast, or help with a homework.  She needs to give attention to her husband.

The man is lucky in this sense, as the nature of life is like that.  There is a work share for everyone.  Though I guess it is okay, if you can carry out your responsibilities, and do something on the top, without letting off your main responsibilities (but isn´t it too much).

May be some of the ladies will get angry with me.  But to tell the truth, though the said countries have the top rankings, the very same countries suffer lack of family bonds, loneliness, suicides, etc... Because the scoiety becomes selfish.. money becomes everything.. everybody pays for themselves.. when you are 18, you are out of the house, or you pay rent..  You are in trouble, sorry, take care of yourself.

Final word: Did you know that a mum´s cuddle is almost affective as a painkiller?

 There are bigger issues. Doesn´t mean that the headscarf issue doesnt need to be solved quickly. The example I gave why your idea isnt applicable to all of Turkey, was related to other factors as well, not only the conservative families in (mainly) rural areas (where also boys cant take education for granted). But the headscarf issue in itself, is also a problem in the cities and it is causing a conflict among population that doesn´t need to be there.

OMG Merih.  I don´t know where to begin answering this post!!!!

It is very very sexist!!!

I will leave this one to Catwoman

 By the way, I am a educated woman too..

 Dear Aenigma,

First of all, I was talking about the low ranking countries.

Secondly I am coming from a family of working women for more than 3 generations in Turkey now..  And you know, it just doesn´t work in Turkey, My mum suffered because her mum was working, I suffered because my mum was working, and even my kids suffered a little until I realised that I should be there for them.

These sentences make the rest of your argument very weak. It is this kind of opinion about how a woman should be, that makes the patriarchal society go on.

Apparantly a woman is the vital part of a marriage, I always thought it was the COMMÝTMENT of TWO people, where two people share the responsibility of having a family life and where both people give each other attention.

The thing you described above sounds like a female slave who is there to cook, clean, take care of the kids and please her husband when he comes home from work. If the marriage fails, it was all her fault, because she was the vital part.

 That is very generalizing statement ´it just doesnt work in Turkey´. I happen to know quite some cases where women are happy being at home and being uflltime mom, but also where the mother has a succesfull job.

If you suffered because your mom was working, then it could well be that your mother and father apparantly weren´t able to share their time spent at work and at home well.

 Well, I think this way.. then why can only a woman give birth?  It is obviously two persons commitment, but who carries the baby?  There must be a reason.

And I am not telling women should not work, should not be educated, all I am saying is that there are natural needs of a family.. of course both parents will help to look after the child, or cook the dinner... but isn´t it the reality that what ever country you are living in, most of the times it is the women who puts more effort???

I have a friend.  In Australia. Pure Aussie family. Very successful, executive woman, mother of 1.. Husband,??? fantastic.  He was the one who woke up in the middle of the nights to feed the baby, he changed nappies, he took the child to kider everyday.  Do you know what happened after 15 years together??

He said, I don´t feel like a man around you anymore... THE END

 So you think women being happy is enough for everything?  Does anybody ask the child?  The partner? 

And you are talking about 2 types of cases: happy being a fulltime mum and not working and successfull women.. Is there anywhere in between?

By the way, it is not about my parents not being able to share.  It is the very fact that a child needs a mother at least until they start school.

 No I know you didnt mean it the way I described. I was jsut refering to the way you put your sentences. That was too sexist. And your argument of ´isnt it the reality of whatever country you are living in etc.´ is a wrong one: it just shows that societies ahven´t changed fully

And I dont know what the reason is Im not god. All I know it takes sperm as well to get something in your belly

 No.

Yes, but as I said, I merely tried to stress the way you put your argument. I didnt even feel like reading more of your argument after reading ´women should do this, that´.

As for my personal idea: I would choose the road in between, and I would temporarily quit my job if I were to give birth untill ´they´ are a few years old. But that is just a personal choice. I just dont agree with your opinion that a woman is the vital part of a marriage and family life, and the fact that ´the man didnt feel like a man anymore´, maybe has to do with ´how society sees what a man should be´.

 oh, you are a dreamwife! if my husband knew about your existence i would get a divorce paper tomorrow

thank God, girls like dk or lir turned into feminists! two years ago they would be on your side, merih.

btw, i know the nature of your opinions been there (and hate it) millions of women think in your category. almost 99% in the east and unfortunately maybe 30% in the west. so it looks like you are in majority.

 typical DK

 with todays technology we actually dont need anything from men

ah, what is a millions of sperm comparing to one and only precious egg?

 This is my opinion.. this is what I understand from equality..  And believe me 99% of women in the east doesn´t think like me.  You can not imagine how much pressure I have because I stopped working.. because I have more than 1 kid..

I think in developing countries like Turkey, woman want to be more effective in life, they want to work, compete, and give days and nights to their jobs.  At least in Australia, it is vice versa.. women work, until they have babies, stop working for a couple of years to care for the baby, then go back to work.  And believe me I did not see (of course I am talking about the educated ones) any women complaining that she is looking after the baby while the husband is working, because the fact is they want to enjoy the baby.

 Well, I think this way.. then why can only a woman give birth?  It is obviously two persons commitment, but who carries the baby?  There must be a reason.

I am hoping alameda can clear this one up for you!

Well then he probably isn´t one. If being a good parent makes him feel less of a man, he doesn´t deserve to be called one....THE END

 And if we didn´t have men....who would we worship?  Who would remind us that we need to take care of EVERYONE!!  You silly girl!!

 merih, i wouldnt want to be in a place of a woman you describe, who is a slave, not a lady. working and at the same time wiping butts of kids and a husband (excuse my language) is not a life. i donno, probably only tough women can deal it in the patriarchal societies.

just wonder why didnt your mother educate you to be free? why didnt she tell you to respect yourself, to have a dignity?

why that working lady cant have a luxury of having a maid? why not? why it is ok for a man to have a luxury to come home and relax and why a woman cant have that too?

 There is no shortcut to experience.. and people do understand things when they have enough knowledge and experience.

I would say, wait until you see your baby, if you decide to have one day, and tell me that it is easy to go back to work after 3 months..  But believe, the dad will go back the next day.

 That is where you people go wrong about equality.

I know how to be free, and I know the benefits and consequences of being free.  For your information I had maids for a couple of years... This is NOT A LUXURY... do you know how rewarding it is to see your baby growing up, saying the first words to you.. walking her first steps holding your hand, NOT A MAID´S.

And again for your information, in Turkey, most of the working, educated women are doing what you have described as a slave... 

 wheres australia? i wanna go there. thats super. it must be so ideally. why should i work while having a little baby? no way!

let your husband now work for both of you.

You would have loved him, if he didn´t say the last words, wouldn´t you?

 And more importantly who would worship us??

Well I am a mother. A "single mother" OMG! How will my poor son ever learn... compassion, dignity.... how to love.... how to know what to do when he is sick??? How will he ever turn in to a fine tuned man that knows his place a king of his domain, what with having this working mother who has neglected all of those vital emotions to help him grow. BLAST being a working mother!!

 why not????

 Well, single mum´s and singles are not and were not what I was talking about.  I always think that a woman should be strong and well educated ebough to care for herself and for kids, and for family if necessary.

 no, i dont think i go wrong. it depends on your attitude, if you are a mother type of woman, you should stay home. it is wonderful to see your child growing. but it shouldnt be only your concern, it must be shared.

and i feel sorry for those women, do their husbands earn little? why do they make their own life so hard? i dont understand it.

 +1

 wait a minute, my husband is back, have to serve him tea. back in minutes.

 Thanks Karekin....I was a single mom for a long time.  I understand what Merih is saying, but it is a slap in the face of working women.  To be honest, me and my son were better off without his father around. 

Thank you I agree Do I wish I could have seen every second of every moment when he was smaller... yes Although, when money was not important in his eyes yet I was away from the home very little time. I feel assured I did not miss much and balanced life and time well.

This "maid thing".... wow, wish I coulda had one life would have been much easier I suppose!

So were we.... wouldn´t have it any other way

 this is a selfish conclusion.

 Your husband is waiting for he tea...NOW HURRY!

 this is a very bed amerikan statement.

 no problema, i quickly threw the noodles onto his plate.

 Since I am a hard working mom...would you mind getting me some too?  I am tired and deserve to sit around for a while.

 I can help you with that.. I really appreciate your situation..

What I meant was not really to say, women should be uneducated, or slaves.. but what i meant working is not everything... you can not jugde the woman equality, or happiness with having a job.

And I really don´t like the attitude of people, who work and thinks they are more worthy, more educated, more intelligent then a full time mum..

 Because of women like you, who think that they will be considered uneducated and  slaves of their husbands.

By the way, i was feeding my husband.. sorry i was away..

 Yes, me to femme.   I prefer coffee, with 3 splendas and two creamers..make it a large please.  Oh, and don´t forget, it should be decaf.

Just a quick question, if you had all the money in the world, and you had a husband and kids, would you be waking up everyday to go to work?  Or just stay at home and enjoy?

There lies the answer......

 Hmmm....in reading this thread I´m reminded of a recent article from National Geographic on the demise of Neanderthals. I have not found it online, but in the printed issue.

I did find this:

Gendered Division Of Labor Gave Modern Humans Advantage Over Neanderthals

It seems the more "modern" Cro-Magnons utilised the concept of labor division and thus the females took care of the home hearth and children. The Neanderthal women worked the same as the males. The outcome was the children were less well cared for, less nourishment, subjected to more dangers, thus this added to the extinction of Neanderthals.

Anyway....it´s something to think about....hmmm?

 Femme, quick, the orders are topping up..

   CHEERS TO YOU

I very much agree with that statement. I do think it´s wrong to base someones quality on how educated or successful they are in their careers. Seems very shallow of people to ask shortly upon meeting you what it is that "you do" (referring to career).

That being said, I also think it´s wrong to assume a working mother would be any less of a mother because she has a career.

I think it is the best of both worlds to have the choice, and that is where the non equality of women comes from. The fact that men have ALWAYS had the choice.

Yes merih, the woman is the "host" and the one giving birth, but she did not get pregnant alone, and should be allowed the very same options as the othe responsible party

It is not a difficult question what I would do if I had all the money in the world. Work is the wrong answer.   But hey, I don´t have children so that question will never be my problem. Probably all you mothers can´t understand but I never wanted children and not for a second I regret that decision. 

The equality issue comes down to this….do I…as a woman, have the same opportunities as a man if I choose to pursue a career or educational opportunities?  

Do I have the right, in my own home, to make decisions with my partner and not be told what is what?

Do I have the same freedoms and choices as any man?

If not, then I am not on equal standing and that is the problem that women around the world are facing everyday. 

Well you didn´t quite clear things up for me as I was so hoping I thought you would have something to say, proving that the man could just as well as the woman be dominant parent, Even if not actually birthing the child.......

so what I will take away from this is that there is no better parent then mother!

(I do so agree with that)

 I do totally agree, with all my heart, and I think that´s why to make a child you need two people (traditional ways of course), as it is very difficult for a single mum to handle everything.  All kind of responsibilites should be shared.

But this thread started as, the woman rights and woman equality is based on working woman, and educated woman...  I am very happy with the reality of the working woman, and I do think they are almost always much more successful than males, and they should be appreciated more.

What I don´t like is the attitude of these women who think that they can talk for me like I don´t have the ability to talk for myself or even to make a choice of working or not, and that i am a slave if I take care of my family, and i am uneducated if I am not working, and blah blah...

 Choice is a beautiful thing isn´t it!!! 

The problem is taht we are still thinking by the male-structured values. Raising children is not something that men do much of, therefore it is not seen as a worthwhile task. The society does not value raising children as important, well-paid job (as it should be valued). Raising children IS a very important part of live and it should be given an appropriate social value, because at this point, it is seen as unpaid, ungrateful women´s work.

Why ´traditional ways of course´?

I agree.  But how can you decide about it at looking at how many woman senators are there in a country?  Or how many working woman? Does it tell all?  Pakistan was the first country to have a female Prime Minister, does it mean, women equality is there?

I respect and appreciate..  Thanks

 YESSSSSSS... That is what I meant...

 Because other than traditional ways, you don´t need the second person to attend the ceremony

I don´t like that either I would never act that way to you or anyone else ........... so long as it is a choice to be wife and mother.

If I could have any job I wanted, that would be it.

Also to Trudy, I so admire your choice as well

Again... couldn´t agree more... However, looking at the number of women senators IS an important aspect as well. If women are not involved in important social decision making then by definition, the society is dominated by men.

 Huh? Blond probably, I don´t get it. (Sorry.)

 Well, isn´t it a FACT that the world is dominated by MEN?.. Is there any country in the wrold who has the same amount of both genders for every occupation?.. the answer is no..

we are just looking at who has the highest percentage and then rank them accordingly..

so where is the real equality?

 Well, do you know how we make babies in the traditional way??? Man and woman???

so if you were to adopt as a single mum, or decide to have a child on your own, you do not need the man present in your bedroom, so you don´t actually bring something into life together?

That is what I meant, in case somebody gets up and says, no, you don´t need two persons, yesterday I went and I had it done by myself??

By the way, i sometimes have blond days too... that´s acceptable I guess.

 Actually, I think the idea that it´s "more enlightened" for women to have outside careers is the problem. I don´t see what is wrong with a woman being a stay at home mother/wife.

There is no reason she can´t be educated, in fact she should be educated. There is a lot to learn to be an efficient and effective homemaker. In no way is it a simple task.

Creating a healthful enviornment, healthy meals and knowing some of those much maligned "old wives remedies" (from which a lot of modern medicine is indebted to) is a valuable contribution to society.

There is no reason a stay at home mother/wife can´t be a contributing member of society, particularly in light of today´s Internet options. I think we should rethink things. Why should women have to fit into the male model?

Can´t we expand and have a more evolved method. Certainly the way male careers have evloved has been to their advantage. What about females? Why try to fid a round peg in a square hole?

As for what parent is dominant, that is up to the family. Sometimes it´s the female, other times it´s the male.

 I understand...I just don´t remember what it was like before children!! 

Making a child is something that can be done within minutes (seconds?   ), raising one is something different to me. A gay couple (m/m of f/f) can be wonderful parents in my view and still the ´making of´ can be done traditional.... (or you go to THE bank..... )

I think that there is no place with real equality... anywhere.

  Yes, it´s probably the most important job in the world. It´s sad that teachers, home care professionals are so underappreciated. It´s not all about money. Maybe all those who do those jobs should go on strike....see where we would be then.

 Aðzýný öpeyim Alameda kardeþim (don´t be scared, this is a saying when somebody says something really fantastic)

Yes, why do we put the female in a male shape, but not actually concentrate on improving our own shape?

 Yes, my dear Trudy, i just said in case, somebody wants to get into some fight about, we don´t need man to make babies, blah blah.. you know..

hmmm? How did my post require that explanation?

As for "she".... I fit the role as "she" in any scenerio, so no need to explain to me what is required of "her".

I don´t see anywhere that I had said or even implied the woman should fit into the male mold. Your talking evolution of women, when we haven´t even leveled up to men yet.

 That´s the point, we don´t have to level up, we have to set our own world.. and we should appreciate every women in society.

As my first example, we are not the same thing as men like two glasses are, we are different.  We are stronger and much more intelligent, practical, organised.  We should embrace this difference.. I think the road to equality is not the way we are going... It is about setting the criteria right.

I am a full time mum by choice.  I am educated, and of course, I don´t want to praise myself, but you know

so why am I not counted for in this ranking????

I have to agree with you on this one...

I stopped working in order to raise my two kids, one of them is still a toddler. I feel offended when people label me as "femme au foyer" (a housewife), as if staying at home means you are NOT working...

Solving a multiobjective simulation-optimization problem is way much easier than being a "femme au foyer", believe me on this one

I do not believe in labeling people. If a woman chooses not to work and raise her kids and she can afford it (since not everyone can afford not working and thus have less income),  this should not make her uneducated, less intelligent etc etc

On the other hand, blaming the working women for problems in the society, dysfunctional families etc, is unacceptable.

someone said once: it is my dad the head of the family but my mom is the neck,  she turns him wherever she wants

 This is from My Big Fat Greek Wedding...

 Probably far before that, I´ve heard my grandma saying it when I was a child.

 I think there lies the message, why want to be the head, while you are the neck??

 never! what for?

 After that, how would you feel, somebody getting up calling you, a slave, your mother haven´t taught you how to be free?

Trudy just asked me why I wasn´t contributing to this thread.  I haven´t read any of it because it doesn´t really interest me.  I don´t consider women are equal to men - I consider they are far superior - end of story.

 well, i didnt know you have all the money in the world

maybe you wanna re-read your first posts? in order to understant my reaction (and not only mine)?

 folks, its written in the bible.

btw, "the greek fat wedding" is wonderful. everytime i watch laugh so loud that my children want to watch it again in order to understand it.

Merih, are you forgetting this very statement?? Now when I suggest being on the same level as men, you suddenly say we are "above" them? stronger? Smarter? etc. 

When I say "leveling up" I´m simply saying having the exact same options. Nothing more, nothing less. As in... a promiscuous man is "experianced," a woman with the same tendancies is a slut, easy, etc.

I plainly think, that judgments and oportunities of women should be equal. THAT INCLUDES, being a stay at home PARENT (father or mother)

I do not expect or even want to be a superior species to man, just equal. I think there is nothing wrong with being held up to their level

 I relaly liked the film too but I thought it was a bit superficial, I suppose it could have been much funnier! There is a Turkish-German version of it too ´Benim çýlðýn Türk düðünüm´ (Meine verrückte türkische Hochzeit). Its about a German who falls in love with a Turkish girl (the actress was half german half indian though ) from a rather conservative family. he then becomes muslim etc etc. It all went kind of fast, but it was still a nice film as well.

i dont understand merih´s posts. now im thinking that i dont believe her.

what i understand from her posts is that she lives in a cruel feminist society where all women are forced to work even if they have good source of money. her grandma and mom suffered under the feminist regime. the regime that doesnt allow her to be a happy mother. ?!?

and one more thing, why do eastern women have an obsession with education thing. they always have to highlite or declare their education. so far i didnt see anyone judging your opinion on the base of your degree. i personally dont care for degrees. i read what you write and i can see your cultural background. but i dont adjust my opinion to the degree on your wall or in your pocket.

im reading this report, quite interesting. im surprised that the phillippinnes are right after 5 nordic countries.

and italy 84?

surprised to learn about my country that outranks turkey

japan and korea are so low

wow! great discussion going on... I´ve read all the posts and i have to agree with Merih about the points she has said, my sentiments exactly about marriage life... and Deli is right about the headscarf issue.

 yeah, so sorry for bunch of evil western bikini wearing women disagreed with her.

if not the western influence the turkish women would be happy enjoying the wonderful family life. Ataturk was then wrong giving them equality and taking away their veils.

im tempted to add more comments to shock merih (&co) . but i will wait for a western support.

 Do it femme.....do it!! 

 no, i need a solid back up.

 Ohhh it looks like someone is still holding grudges!

 by the way i am a bikini wearing woman as well. and yes, I have all the money in the world, and yes I enjoy being with my family, rather than working for someone else... yes i come from a community where a working woman is valued more than a full time mum.  Because of people like you, being a full time mum counts as not working, so it means, i don´t know my rights, I am not given the opportunity to make choices, and I am not equal to men.

But YOU ARE WRONG... I am a strong woman who looks at life far from a different point of view.  And I think people will come to that point sooner or later.

"On a final personal note, I want to repeat a question I constantly pose in my teaching:  How many of their deathbeds wished they´d spent more time at the office - or watching TV?  The answer is, No one.  They think about their loved ones, their families, and those they have served.

Even the great psychologist Abraham Maslow at the end of his life, put the happiness and fullfilment and contributions of his posterity ahead of his self-actualization.  He called it self-transcendence"

Stephen Covey / 7 Habits of Highly Effective People

What I´m saying is that the man dominant world is showing us a wrong direction and people are mostly blinded by the very thought of becoming powerful in bussiness life, and they are brainwashed to think that the road to equality goes from working harder and harder...  And they start thinking themselves more valuable - like yourself Femme - and they get threatened if somebody comes up and says:  Hey, this is not equality....

Let´s say, in a household there are 4 major jobs:

cooking

cleaning

shopping

laundry

If just for the sake of being equal, everybody chooses the same thing, for example, cooking... what happens to the rest of the chores?  They stay undone...

The thing is the society humiliates the house chores, motherhood, etc.  So that´s why you people think you are better if you can stay away from it as much as possible.

What I say, let´s value all the efforts we woman put in, and change our approach to equality.

But unfortunately, we woman, ourselves don´t know how to value these things!!!

 I don´t forget.. I strongly believe, as we don´t know how to balance family and profession (but like I said, I am talking about woman who has partners and children, not singles, and single parents)

Well, aren´t we the first ones to call a woman a slut when they are easy.. so are you telling me that if a woman goes to a bar, picks up a man, takes him to bed for a one night stand... and you will call her a strong, educated and clever woman, or slut???

I will call it, making bad choices for the sake of equality, because I think the woman by nature is emotional, consistent and strong.  They like commitment and results... and the above example takes you where you feel more lonely than ever... temporarily it might be charming.. but until when????

Merih you are completely off the mark! The thing about equality is having the OPTIONS to CHOOSE what you want out of your life………..just like a man does.  The RIGHT to make your own choices and have those choices be of equal value to your male counterpart.

Not one person here has said a woman who chooses to stay home is less valuable than a woman who chooses to work! 

I think this equallity has something to do with the country´s circumstances as well. I come from a Scandinavian country, we are blessed with high salary jobs, even for uneducated jobs, good child care, and every 3rd month a ´child-check´(I dont remember how much money it is)free schools, and you are even payed a little less than 1000$ to go to school after the age of 18.(I could go on) Puls in most cases a 8-9 hour workday is very common. Which gives the people the possibility to choose what they want. So I really think that is why the Scandinavian countries are placed so high on this list.

Here in Turkey, where I live now with my husband, I am not working (my choise), and it is hard, we are struggling to make ends meet. My husband is working in a bank, he is well educated, and extremely clever.He is out of our home about 13 hours a day. The sallary level is unbelieveby low (I am compraing to my own country), 2 weeks vacation a year, plus we are sitting here, watching the news about how the prices on gaz, electric and water is going up, and how our whole salary is spent on bills. So I think it a hard decision for women in Turkey, because in this country I can really see how it can be hard to be a working mother: 13 hours a day, and 13 hours for your husband, prices are going up but salaries are not. You both come home from work, tired, and then start the house work, the child raising, and after all that spending some quality time with your life partner. Congratulations to you who are maing it work. On the other side is the housewife who is raising the children, making a home, but she is not earning money, and just a little here can mean a lot.

I guess what I wanted to say is that in this situation, comparing my country with my husbands, I must say that the reason we are in top, and Turkey is placed as nr. 123, in my eyes, is the circumstances, if you understand what I mean?

 errrr excuse moi i didnt say those who choose to wear bikini are evil No one is perfect duh. one can cover frm head to toe with cloth or fake tan but still what´s inside that matters. Ataturk is a superb political leader he gives women the right on how to practise their beliefs..Turks have free will to some point in history after he passed away...and then the ban on headscarf at some premises came about some 20 years ago.

To each its own.. some women find working more fulfilling for them and some feel doing housechores, feeding and disciplining their own kid is more fulfilling for them. Some can even do both.. work from home do small businesses etc. Dont look down on burqa women femme. Many are educated but its their personal choice to be housewives(they are satisfied with what they have and dont feel the need for another source of income.. Being materialistic is not in their hearts) There are those who are talented or have great skills too. Just imagine this..for example.. if they can sew their own children´s clothes.. when the child goes to school and the teacher ask who bought it for him.. he can proudly say his mother sewed it lovingly for him. i personally find that rewarding.

I know working mothers who after a hard day at work come back, cook dinner, check their children homeworks, wake up early morning, prepare breakfast, send their kids to school and head to work........ i have my utmost respect for them as well. Every family structure is so different.. Sometimes culture plays a role. There are also women whose aged parents are under their care.

By the way, there will never be equality in gender... just equity

 Equality, equity....you are just splitting hairs....this is about RIGHTS.

I think I quite agree with this post... The only thing I´d like to mention is that sometimes there is more to life then we can imagine -- because the filters of religion, culture, socioeconomic status can obstruct the view rather often... That´s why I´d say never stop to question everything.. and don´t let anybody tell you you´re not good enough to raise your voice and object something.

This report seems odd anyway... Iran is above Turkey? And Saudi Arabia is only a few spots lower? It doesn´t make any sense.

 I hope you are right - I was planning on marrying my dudu next week

 
When looking at the subindexes one can have a clearer idea on what makes a difference between one country and another.

Both Iran and Saudi arabia have a better educational attainement for women (literacy rate and enrollement in primary, seconday and tertiary education)
Also Iran has a better score than turkey in economic participation and opportunity.

Now the question is whether they were biased in sampling the population!

It is still odd anyways, because as far as I know,  women in saudi arabia are not even registered and they dont have a  national identity cards, so unless they check hospital records for birth rates, saudis must not have any idea how many female births occur each year! only boys are registered; so how did they do this gender gap  analysis thing?!!

 I want to tell you a story.. about perception:

The real owners of Australia, the Aboriginals were treated badly by the first immigrants, sent out of their lands for a long time.  Then the Australian government understood that they were wrong, and in an attempt to higher their living standards, they gave every family a house.  And you know what the Aboriginals did, put their belongings and some of their animals in the house, and they slept in their garden, under the open sky... like they always did.

So, can you tell me that they are uneducated, undeveloped because they did not want to live in the house like the other people does?

So the point is: 

Being educated doesn´t necessarily make you equal to man.

Given a choice and financial support, do you think all the girls and women in Turkey will run to Uni´s and start working?? I don´t think so.

And who says, if you are not educated or working, you can´t make choices for yourself and your family?

And, the very important fact we should not forget:

RIGHTS ARE NOT GIVEN, THEY ARE TAKEN.

Turkey is a country to give the Women their rights long before any other country did.  And yet this is not valued, because they did not fight for it.  Nobody suffered, unlike the European countries.  So today´s women in turkey is fighting to get the value of it.  But until the society changes and their mind set improves, nothing can be changed.

I started this topic, as the first article was telling facts about the number of women in the Parliament.  And I do sincerely believe, when a women works hard, and really wants, they can do it.  But, having said that, I don´t think the number indicates a discrimination aginst women, but shows how much women are into politics.  And by the way, may be half of the voters are women, why don´t they vote for a women?????

In Australia, until 1980´s a woman getting pregnant before 18 was something unacceptable.  The girls would be put in a monastry until due date, and then the baby will be given for adoption without asking for mother´s content.  And today: a woman can choose to be a mum by herself, and the society accepts it.

Finally, we don´t have to be equal, because, as i always we are not the same thing as man. but we have to cooperate and value the meaning of women, and value what ever they are, and they do.  this is I believe the only way we get the "equality".

By the way, did anybody notice that, no male member is contributing to this topic, and we women, as usual are fighting with each other.

This is often posted here and is factually incorrect.  In fact, Turkey were MUCH LATER than than many countries both to grant women a vote and to allow them to stand for election.  I don´t know why Turkey always think this

http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/suffrage.htm

 Very true

i personally joined discussions about women rights before. i just dont want to repeat myself over and over. all arguements have been about women rights, kurdish rights, the fact turkish cant criticise Turkey bla bla, democracy we need new topics

 OOOOOOOPPPPPPSSSSSSS.......

I think they have to change the books in Turkey.. I feel like an idiot.. and yes you are right about Turkye not being one of the first, but still earlier than some developed countries...

Check this site too.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women´s_suffrage

the dates look a little bit different though

See, education is not enough, true education is a must....

I must have been a poet

 Hehehehe liking you even more now

Poland gave women voting right in 1918. Why not earlier? Because there was no Poland from 1795-1918 Our dear neighbours signed a treaty that gave them right to share what remained of Poland

 Me too... i mean myself

aww..aww..awwwww..

Is merih (&co) beating you up?

awww..looking for your mummy?

What happened to old femme? eh?

 I think we scared her off... .Good on us, the new strong women!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  She must be hiding somewhere

 she´s hiding under my burka  >> lol size matters

thats a big shame for we Turkish men,and i´m afraid  somethings less in our genes for comprehend  nothing possible without womenbut i have to add to equality is good for raise up social quality never for make it less or down..

Ha ha..

´The new strong women´?

To be honest i have never met any woman, who spent her entire life with house chores, I could call her ´strong´.

On the contrary, sorry to say this but almost whole house chores are boring and dont require intelligence.

There is a great chance that a woman spending her entire life ´doing house chores only´ will never ever be a strong woman..

Generically speaking, because of the male dominating culture that woman will never be considered ´equal´ if she does not work. Without work and economic independence, I can not see a woman  FIGHTING successfully (if necessary) for her rights.

Working of women is a must for equality..

 lol time to open your eyes a little.. there are many strong mothers out there who sacrifice many things in their lives for their family.. like sacrifice a job to mend the household and take care of their kids and aged parents...  i dont think housewives would just sit at home n do chores only and then shake leg.. who has that kinda life these days :S  they have alot of things they can settle on their husband´s behalf, grocery shopping, pay the bills, teach their children, learn new dishes, organise parties... their days can be just as productive as a working woman i´m sure =P U see an intelligent women will know how to plan her time and set her priorities right. Anyways house chores can be boring... to u especially since you´re a man

 actually I think most household chores are boring and repetitive to women as well as men!!

Well..If you are not getting bored with the house chores and if you are happy with ´grocery shopping, pay the bills, teach their children, learn new dishes, organise parties´, good luck to you and as long as you are happy doing those chores and asking your husband to give you money so that you can buy something for yourself, who am I to say that it is wrong for you?

haha=D  nah..  i am educated and have the means to work and so i am working.. if in future situation says it´s better that i stay home i will (especially during those first few years of my child´s life, never want to miss out on that! after that i can continue working ).. working for many years or doing daily routine at home forever can be so mundane.. so switching occasionally between the two would b awesome

Most important thing in life is not to be materialistic, live simply..

 femme has changed, went through serious reformation with the help of merih and zettea

 why new? why strong?

i wasnt scared off

 grrrrr.... i hate your burka  i will never borrow one anymore, not enough it was too small, but also too hot. i have to shop for extra in london. aenigma should help me with prices.

 the household stuff is not boring, it is challenging. work is boring!

theres no a thing like asking for money - you take the money, no money belongs to husband dimi?

The fact is yes, house work is boring, but you don´t have to limit yourself.. you can work from home, do some paintings, write poems, play with your children...

And, the handsome, i love being around my family, cuddling them when they come back from school, studying with them, etc... and I think as a man you can never understand - by nature - how it feels like...

I have no worries as getting in a competition with men.  i am good at many things, and when ever I want to do something, i do it.. I don´t ask men to give me a job, or a higher salary..

DO you understand..

The new stronger women concept for me is this...

Not to go and ask for a quota in the parliament but GET IT!!!!

Yeah, may be you should check the previous posts to see who Aenigma will help?

The truth is the survey cant really be accounted as true, because thats not the way you judge Equality rights in countries, what if ladies dont like working in politics? To rea;lly judghe it then theyd have to live with the pople themselves in their working enviroment.

And why does more women sitting at home accounted for as there being in that country less gender equality?

Maybe they´d prefer to care for their children!

Theyre most probably educated, or worked until they had children becuase they know that brinign up their children and raising them is most preobably more important, so is sttong them on the right track.

Kids need their parents support in many things, how would theyf eel if they slept every night without for example mom or dad, and the maid tucked them in at night?(im talking about people who have enough money)

Theyll grow up having no one to talk to, seek help and support from other laces and then who knows what will happen?

They could get kidnapped etc etc

But both parents should be involved in their lives, the father cant just come home, have dinner, read the paper or whatever then go to sleep without intreacting with his children.

Thats non-equality!

And it also has a little to do with how much every woman can stand and her power, maybe some women can have childrenn and work and spend time together and evrything, tahtwas what my did until she had my little sister, and she didnt need to work, she worked cause she was ambitious, not because of anythign financial.

MAybe some women cant work and take care of children and house work, so they choose one of them.

Lots of men also help with chores and stuff. My dad makes breakfast every weekend (or I do, cause i like to cook )

and then he says we have to help mom with the cleaning, becasue household chores and sall theses things should be shared equally between all the family  members.

I think raising children is like doing lots of jobs all at once, and women all around the world should be appreciated for doing that EVERY SINGLE DAY! not just on Mothers day

Didnt you think how the way a mother raises her child has an effect on how her child will grow and these children are THE FUTURE???

So really being a mother is the most important jobs because tahst how countries advance.

Thats why, gender equality has to belooked at by lots of different points of view, why is it measured by how amny women are like men?

Because there are lots of factors, and i never believe in surveys anyway because they only ask questions which have the answers they want!

 Excellent post doudie! 

Really???

Thx soo much

just one question:

was it readable???

 Yes - you are definitely improving!!

!

Yes, this is a great analysis of this index. The numbers alone don´t mean anything, unless you are aware of how they were calculated (at least that´s what they teach me at school ). I really would like to see more of this kind of discussion of this index. Thank you Cedars.

 IMHO!!! both of you are absolutely right (except the part I crossed out ). Women are not different then men, other then in the biological structure and function. The biological roles unfortunately allowed our modern societies to abuse and exploit each other. Men went on without any concern for their families and children, and built the economy, politics, most of science... etc. -- because they had the infrastructure available (due to their previous domination, that I think is strictly related to their muscular strength), and because they were not weakened by almost a year of pregnancy, therefore it is very easy for them to avoid childcare. I want to emphasize here that men are not any less capable of affection, love for children, they are very well aware of the rewards of being close with their children. They can make equal quality primary caregivers as women can. I say this from personal experience and men´s stories. Women, on the other hand, were historically incapacitated by pregnancy, and at times when there was no contraception, women were pregnant all the time, and were always taking care of their children, and by extention, they were the home-keepers. This created a system where women were regarded as men´s property, since men owned property, a wife, was simply another one of their possessions. That created a social structure where women were valued as possessions: for their looks and fertility, their most important job in the world was to find a husband. Girls were not sent to school by their parents... etc etc.

What we mean by inequality, is that in the current modern society, we know that being doomed to be a housewife because of your gender is inhumane, when there are other options in the society. We think that being judged by looks, treated as property, having imposed a goal of having children is all inhumane. We now know that women have equal intellectual strength and genius as men do, and they often feel fulfilled in other roles, not just the one of being a mother. At the same time, we know that the burden of raising children should also be men´s job and concern, that this important role should be shared. We also know that the society is better when men do get to understand the process of raising children, the joy of having children and the responsibility that comes with it. We know that this makes societies more peaceful and more humane.

Therefore, my point is that both men and women have to understand the ´other side´. Men have to take much more responsibility for raising children and mainatining a home, and women have to take responsibility for their social duties and for contributing to the society, in politics, economics, science, arts... etc. Only then, can we fully understand each other and the society can be said to be equal. We know that various individuals may have their own preferences, they don´t all have to enjoy everything or something in particular. But on the whole, it should be obvious that men and women participate in all aspects of the society in equal rates.

Why are current societies not equal? Partly because it is hard to give up power for men, partly because sitting at home is safer then having to go out and prove yourself, partly because some people don´t believe that change is necessary, partly because our society is not adjusted to care for children (ironically... ), partly because our empathy and humaneness is overpowered by the desire to be in charge and control others...

are you sure? hehe check out my pic album  

can someone enlighten me what a letterbox is?

 They are referring a letterbox to a burka.  A letterbox is like our postal systems mailbox.  The only opening is a slot at the top.

This study is really crap.

Bangladesh is ranked 90... In Bangladesh women aren´t even permitted to speak with men.

And Morocco, which is very liberal is ranked even lower than Turkey.